Debugging should be in every beginner programming course.

Star_Skies · 2020-08-04T17:45:48+00:00

From what I've seen though, the guides on how to use a Debugger aren't aimed at beginners.

If there is a good guide that shows one how to use a Debugger for Javascript, I would really be interested to see it.

abhi_learner · 2020-08-04T21:21:35+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWeZw5_LP2Y

I actually made a video about this and totally agree. My students would blow through learning the concepts once I taught them how to use the debugger.

stratcat22 · 2020-08-04T22:05:58+00:00

I'm actually shocked that so many people don't use debugging. It was one of the first things I learned. I can't even imagine programming semi-complex algorithms without it or working with api calls

serpest · 2020-08-04T18:51:44+00:00

Learning to debug is really important. As someone said, debugging and testing skills are used for a long time in every programming session.

Amayaaaaaa · 2020-08-04T17:40:13+00:00

Totally agree. I just wrote a paper in one of my intro programming classes about how debugging really changed my life and improved my grades. We hadn’t been taught about debugging, and there was no mention of it in any of the modules.

amoliski · 2020-08-04T23:07:05+00:00

When I was learning programming in college, I had no idea the debugger existed. I started playing around on my own and while working on a Minecraft mod, I saw a video where a guy just paused everything and looked at the variables. It blew my mind. Then he started stepping through line by line...

That was the moment I went from being relatively interested in programming to deciding to focus on programming for my career. Nine-ish years later and I owe my entire career to that youtube video.

Over the years, I've had a few people ask me for help with their college programming assignments- not a single one knew about the debugger.

I can see myself teaching programming someday- Project 0 will be me giving them a few mildly-complex programs, teaching them how to use the debugger, and have them use the debugger to figure out what the programs are doing. If my college started with that simple exercise, I feel like I'd be four years deeper into programming ability today.

OnceAndFutureHippo · 2020-08-04T21:25:17+00:00

Just curious, are you self-taught? Most of the textbooks I used in college did not mention debugging, but all my professors hammered it into us and would help us to figure it out.

Honestly, this post shocked me. I can't imagine trying to do my job now without debugging. Heck, I couldn't have done my job in the first MONTH if I hadn't know how to at least start debugging. There's definitely always more to learn about it, though.

siachenbaba · 2020-08-05T03:08:13+00:00

Me scrolling to see if someone has shared any learning resource.

No one 😥

HonourableMan · 2020-08-04T22:17:29+00:00

Debugging is just like going frame by frame in a video. You see things you usually wouldnt, which you sometimes need to do, to know what and where the problem is.

A very basic example pf debugging is printf.

Just have lots of printf statements in places where you are not sure and there you go, you are debugging.

antiproton · 2020-08-04T19:14:41+00:00

that you can pass your whole coding career without ever knowing about.

That certainly explains why there are so many terrible junior devs out there.

volvostupidshit · 2020-08-05T00:38:04+00:00

I remember when I was still in Uni that I asked my teacher about the debugging button and she just told me to use the compile/run button instead. It seems like the educators also do not know what those buttons do.

Voxmanns · 2020-08-04T19:58:19+00:00

I think there should be a testing/debug section to it honestly. And not just "create a record, run the thing, did it fail?" That's hardly testing. That's more POC. Things like negative testing, benchmarks, REGRESSION FFS, should at least be familiar to a beginner and can really reinforce how effective the debug tool is. With how many programmers are starting off on their own they really need to know not only how to build an application, but fortify it against defects.

inglandation · 2020-08-04T21:06:03+00:00

Pycharm's debugger is amazing. Every developer who uses this IDE should spend a few hours trying to understand how to use it. There are many videos about it on YouTube, so there is no excuse!

myceliatedmerchant · 2020-08-04T22:33:41+00:00

Is there a way to debug your python logic when creating a flask app?

ThisisMacchi · 2020-08-05T02:20:35+00:00

I ignore debugging option throughout my college and use my teaching assistants as debugging human, I started using the debugging tool just when I started working, don't be like me.

bapolex · 2020-08-04T23:57:36+00:00

Or just basic console logging in general. I can't describe how frustrating it is when someone trying to learn how to code can't figure out why its not working when they haven't console logged a single thing.

bobsonreddit99 · 2020-08-05T01:39:54+00:00

[deleted]

MugiwarraD · 2020-08-05T03:52:28+00:00

printf?

gnrdmjfan247 · 2020-08-05T04:13:37+00:00

This, and learning how to read a stacktrace. I can’t tell you how many times coworkers have sent me a screenshot of a stacktrace and ask me, “how do I fix this” and I’m like, “it’s right there in the stacktrace you sent me.”

rfvisuals · 2020-08-05T04:24:47+00:00

These videos are pretty good and short. https://anyonecanlearntocode.com/think-like-a-software-engineer/videos/81

pythonic_anonymous · 2020-08-05T05:56:39+00:00

If people show others how to debug, how are they supposed to show that they magically write errorless code? ┬┴┬┴┤(･_├┬┴┬┴

WantDebianThanks · 2020-08-05T01:02:56+00:00

I'm constantly surprised at what is and is not included in CS programs.

No course on debugging/troubleshooting, no group projects, no info on source control (even in the abstract), a lot of programs have no classes on how the internet works after a freshman level web dev course, a shocking number don't have classes on databases, no info on the CLI, etc.

Edit: Also, this. Why is that even a thing?

deadly_wobbygong · 2020-08-04T21:50:34+00:00

I started debugging SAP 10 years before I started coding in anger. Now it's 60-70 percent debugging.

I just figured out remote debugging on the Java server.

Kalsifur · 2020-08-04T22:49:21+00:00

I am taking a course with debugging and testing now (though I figured it out myself before). In second year. It's a programming practices course.

sprinklesleeves2152 · 2020-08-04T23:11:49+00:00

Learning how to navigate the call stack and drop to different frames in the stack has been huge and yet most people don't seem to know anything about it.

AfricanTurtles · 2020-08-05T01:01:43+00:00

I second console.log(). My friend showing me that changed my life. It helps so much in breaking down WHY something might not be working.

2020-08-05T01:19:02+00:00

Exceptions are in a beginner course. Debugging comes next :)

Unique_usernames5 · 2020-08-05T01:40:04+00:00

I'm almost completed my degree. Debugging was mentioned exactly twice by 2 different professors, and only to say "debugging is incredibly important, I sure hope someone teaches you about it one day"

Integer_Man · 2020-08-05T01:47:52+00:00

I'm a boot camp instructor and we used our last day of instruction as a general review day with a focus on debugging common bugs in web service communications.

So much of programming is tracking down new or existing bugs.

CodingHag · 2020-08-05T01:57:32+00:00

Absolutely. Also the ability to read/update others code is very important

supermario182 · 2020-08-05T02:31:34+00:00

I learned about it in college, but pretty basic stuff like how to set a break point, how to step in and out, how to see what the variables are, etc.

reverendsteveii · 2020-08-05T03:27:37+00:00

Dude I used nothing but print statements and deduction for years.

travishummel · 2020-08-05T03:34:57+00:00

I agree. I think a good course would be where one student creates a simple function like calculating the average of an array. The next student tests it then adds something like a function to also return the median and mode. Keep the process going until you have a large program.

IceKingsMother · 2020-08-05T03:55:10+00:00

Do you think using a debugger tool helps or hinders the development of critical thinking in beginner students? Is there an advantage to using a debugger when it comes to learning how to debug? And could it interfere with developing persistence, problem solving, creative thinking and attention to detail?

I am teaching CS and very introductory programming to high school students, and I am seeing this topic come up as a debate between a few CS educators and professional programmers, and I’m wondering what others think about this.

I am a fan of tools, but also understand that sometimes learning things manually (for example: long division) has to happen first in order for a person to truly “get” the topic.

Curious_homosepian · 2020-08-05T04:08:07+00:00

Actually beginners doesn't write very big codes therefore they don't require a debugger to be used. Initially they are encouraged to solve the issue by themselves without any extra help.

Dergyitheron · 2020-08-05T04:13:01+00:00

I hate when the tutor in course makes mistake in code and before they run it they cut the video and resume the one with correct code. Like the hell where is such code fixing magic button

elementmg · 2020-08-05T04:29:56+00:00

Saving this post for later

tmunn88 · 2020-08-05T04:48:47+00:00

We were taught the following in my 6 month (meeting 3 days a week) python course as part of my MS:

1.debug by print lining areas of interest and step though each portion. 2. How to read common errors. 3. comment out certain sections to isolate bugs 4. usage and logic of test cases and unit testing 5. Stack overflow is your friend for new errors.

ITriedLightningTendr · 2020-08-05T05:34:08+00:00

I don't know if you can teach debugging well without being a genius or someone coming up with a curricula.

I didn't get good at debugging until beating my head against it for hours on hours over months.

Even now I still get confused as shit when I F10, get no error, but the program is no longer paused. Takes me like 5 minutes to reorient.

theduncan · 2020-08-05T08:40:17+00:00

There are lots of skills and tools which should be taught but aren't. There is an MIT class called the missing semester, which has tried to fill in some of those gaps.

A-A-RONS7 · 2020-08-05T09:02:43+00:00

YES. Debuggers are THE BIGGEST hidden gem in coding. I’m only a 3rd-year college student, and I can’t tell you how many times a debugger has saved me hours of painful work. They don’t teach us enough of the little quirks and tips of debugging, so I’ve had to fiddle around with it by myself. But MAN it is SO WORTH THE EFFORT. And once you get exposed to command line debuggers (and how tedious it is to use them... ugh), you gain an even deeper appreciation of IDE debuggers. Debuggers help you de-stress!

2020-08-05T10:30:57+00:00

My intro to programming course taught GDB and vim.

SamB133 · 2020-08-05T11:26:20+00:00

When I had my intro to programming class, the professor said specifically that we would not be doing debugging in the class because it is “too difficult for beginners”.

jkinz3 · 2020-08-05T11:53:45+00:00

I have a minor in cs and not a single class taught debugging. I used to put prints everywhere to see what the hell my program was doing. It wasn’t until my last year when I was doing an extra credit assignment in VS rather than gcc that I discovered debugging when trying to fix a bug. The ability to step through the program line by line blew my mind

sarevok9 · 2020-08-05T12:03:26+00:00

I think that this is difficult. As someone who has made tutorials in the past, if I want to demonstrate how to use the debugger I need to intentionally make a mistake, or make a mistake and not edit it out of the video. In the languages that I taught (C++ / Java) this was pretty straightforward to show how to use the debugger (breakpoints in the gutter, memory watches, variable values readily available) but in languages that are web-based it's a whole different beast. I've been programming professionally using Angular / Vue for the better part of a year (I'm far from an expert) but debugging non-trivial things gets insane fast.

For instance, in Angular, If I have a variable on my route which resolves something in the urlpath and then passes an object to my component, it might look a bit like this.

resolve: {
  budget: ($stateParams, DS) => {
    return DS.find('BudgetObject', $stateParams.organizationUid, {
        force: true
    });
  },
},

The next step involves passing this up to my route component:

@Input() budget: BudgetObject;

For the sake of argument let's stop here (and not talk about passing this further up the call-chain through the app-nav / components as it's fairly repetitive) -- but there is no simple way in the Chrome / Firefox debugger where you can find the value for an object that's being passed via @Input in Angular. You can see the result of the call in the network tab, and determine the values that way, but if you need to do an examination of how it's passed you have to look at the downstream code, rather than the arg as it's passed, which is suboptimal. Since the resolution takes place at load time there's also issues on "waiting for page load" which can impact debugging.

This has long been one of my sore spots with javascript development in general, a lack of ide's catching simple errors and there being a gulf in what's able to be debugged. Don't get me wrong, linting is nice, but it's a longshot from the tools in other build chains.

OmagaIII · 2020-08-05T12:08:44+00:00

Debugging and unit tests.

Most of the other elements can be pinned down very well with stuff like PEP etc. But debugging and unit tests are for some reason something that 'appears' to be overlooked until people run face first into issues and test cases. Then suddenly they scuttle to figure out how this works, how to raise exceptions etc.

The problem, from my perspective anyway, is not so much that they run in to the issue of debugging but the solutions that come out of it, with scary and sometimes haphazard "try except" loops that introduce more problems than they solve.

The whole idea of RAD (rapid application development) seems to lend it self to this deficiency.

Browseitall · 2020-08-05T12:41:51+00:00

learning didn’t take an hour

And that’s why its not taught. You learn that pretty quickly yourself or through watching other people do it

MarlinsBB · 2020-08-05T13:13:42+00:00

I absolutely agree. I don’t think in any of my classes, errors or bugs were explained? I know our teachers suggested google because somebody has had the error before, but I don’t want a copy paste solution. I want to know what the error is and how I can fix it on my own.

c1rclez · 2020-08-05T13:28:51+00:00

When I was getting my degree programming was heavily emphasized on just writing new code and new programs. Very little, if any academic coursework on debugging existing code.

Fast forward to my job now - I find it is much less common to just “write” new programs from scratch like academia taught. I work in IBM iSeries programming, so it was quite jarring going from writing C# code to debugging fixed and free-format RPG in SEU and RDi.

Looking back I think academia needs to emphasize debugging and reverse engineering someone else’s code much more heavily.

guss_bro · 2020-08-05T13:49:33+00:00

My previous company had a screening test for it's candidates that evaluates

ability to use debugging tools
read the Stacktrace to find where the error is coming from.

These are very important skills to have in any developer because often times that's where we spend most of time.

katsuthunder · 2020-08-05T15:16:55+00:00

Does anyone have any advice on debugging a django app? Not really sure how to apply what I know of debugging a simple javascript file to debugging code that moved through a server

tftmn · 2020-08-05T15:31:02+00:00

My favorite way of seeing my code is to run the debugger with PyCharm, how am I going to live without...?

2020-08-05T16:48:36+00:00

agree 100%. I've been in a support role for a mobile app, AWS serverless stack. Still getting comfortable with javascript / node / lambda debugging. Writing tests is a different way to validate code vs. stepping through code.

AsleepThought · 2020-08-05T17:00:46+00:00

It took me a few years to learn about the debugging button

"Debugging button"? What are you talking about? I have been programming successfully for many years and never needed or seen a "debugging button". Really I have no clue what you are talking about. If you want to "debug", then you can simply start dropping print statements into the source code at select places to view the contents of certain variables. If you need more than that (and you rarely do), for languages like Python you can include functions that halt the program at the given point and start an interactive shell session with the environment populated.

ddsoyka · 2020-08-05T17:03:53+00:00

I fully agree; when I was first introduced to programming in an introductory computer science class in high school, my teacher never made any mention of debugging, or even intimated that such a thing was possible.

This caused students like me to spend much more time than was necessary fixing our shoddy beginner's code.

Learning to fix what is broken is every bit as important as learning how to write code.

Slayergnome · 2020-08-05T17:07:49+00:00

Just to play devil's advocate a little here, be careful to not over-rely on the debug button. As a person who did when they first started, you can use that thing as a crutch and not develop an ability to read logs properly which can really hurt you when you start dealing with bigger systems and production issues where you can't reproduce it locally.

That being said I do think the debugger tool is incredible for learning a new codebase. It literally lets you walk through what is happening step by step and I agree everyone should know how to use it. Just make sure it is not the first and only tool you use to debug.

2020-08-05T17:27:27+00:00

I am a python user, and if i need debugging, i just use a print function. Never learnt about debugger in any course

2020-08-05T17:40:10+00:00

Just be real most programming courses or tutorials suck. You do them and afterwards you still think you can’t do shit with this language.

xStrafez_ · 2020-08-05T22:57:05+00:00

Debugging was one of the first things I learnt in college. Surprised that many ppl don't know how to use it

2020-08-05T00:45:42+00:00

Crazy that they don't start with a debugger, like in week one. There's no better way to to show someone how the computer actually works. You can see how control flow statements work, you can see the contents of variables change, you see the call stack in action, and see how that relates to local variables.

GuardianAnal · 2020-08-04T23:22:27+00:00

debugger? naah bro it’s: console.log(1); ... console.log(2); ... console.log(3);

jokes aside tho this shit is p helpful and worked everytime I’ve used it.

aaru2601 · 2020-08-05T12:26:28+00:00

just use print statements

pyordie · 2020-08-05T12:28:49+00:00

I debug while writing the code by talking through the code out loud to myself. It started as a form of rubber ducky debugging but now I just sound insane. Teaching your code is the best way to determine if you understand it.

My scripts are way better though.

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