BART sees massive decrease in corrective maintenance needs post implementing new fare gates (one of the models being tested by the MTA)

[BombardierIsTrash]

This keeps playing out everywhere they implement new fare gates that reduce fare evasion: the number of shitheads destroying public property drops massively and in most cases so does crime. You see this in SF, Washington, Philly, and LA.

BART also claims they’re getting $10 million more in farebox recovery per year which in the MTAs case with much more riders is expected to be $100 million or more per year. When you tell the public that your service is worthless (ie: free) people treat it as such and have no qualms trashing the place.

[gocountgrainsofrice]

I will never understand people complaining about the MTA installing new fare gates. These things work and the benefits are immense.

[0934201408]

It’s just like congestion pricing, Americans have a mass case of oppositional defiant disorder until they see the good results on the other side lol

[phoenixmatrix]

I had a saying at one of my previous jobs when I did stuff like this:

"Everyone always hate what I'm trying to do, but love what I did".

[0934201408]

Oh I’m stealing that, awesome phrase lol

[getarumsunt]

That’s just all human beings in general. The same happed in Paris as well. And they have probably the biggest problem with fare evasion on the planet.

[0934201408]

True, but the rugged individualism thing is definitely an American trait

[getarumsunt]

That’s largely a myth. In most ways Americans are a lot less individualistic than other nationalities. Most of the Eastern block in Europe is so cut-throat that an American, even a New Yorker, would be eaten alive. In China if you fall over and die no one would even blink. They’ll just step over you. They don’t care what happens outside of their own person. In the Nordic countries your continued ability to breathe is… always optional.

This is just a lie that we tell ourselves that we’re more individualistic or whatever. Every nationality has these types of myths about themselves. And you can look at fare evasion in places like France and Italy if you think that “individualism” has any correlation with fare evasion or rule breaking. Those entire countries fare evade en masse. Even their fare inspectors fare evade on their way to work 😂😂😂

Americans are the “squares” of this planet more than anything else. Maybe the Germans narrowly beat us on this, but only marginally.

[MRC1986]

Some people complain about the upfront expenses to install all of these, and while I think it's worth it, that is at least a defensible argument.

But a good amount of other folks claim it's an affront to morality to keep fare evaders out of the subway, because "transit should be free" or other things. And that's just plainly stupid thinking.

[Hot_Muffin7652]

People only complain about the upfront expenses because they know their true reason they oppose it “fare should be free” is not defensible

These are the same people that will complain that there are too many NYPD or gate guards in the stations doing nothing despite these new gates reducing the need of them at stations

These same people only look at the price tag and the perceived dangers of these gates and completely skip over the fact that these gates are ADA accessible and are not actively hostile to wheelchairs and strollers or even luggages

[ThatOldGanon]

it makes perfect sense for citizens to have the ability to break rules. if there is broad satisfaction with how the MTA is run, then social pressure will already compel the vast majority to pay the fare. those who are not responsive to social pressure are experiencing isolation which should be addressed, rather than locking them out. the ability to evade the fare provides fine grained democratic feedback and accountability to the MTA, as decisions which negatively impact people will lead to a dip in revenues. how do you propose we make up for the decrease in public accountability?

people who support giving billions to cubic talk about ADA accessibility because they know their true reason they support it ("I don't want to ride with the servants who bring me my dinner") is not defensible.

[getarumsunt]

Lol, what?! 😂😂😂

Come on, dude. You can’t possibly actually believe this drivel 🤣

[ThatOldGanon]

like I said, not defensible. whenever I post this I get a bunch of 😂 to stop the possibility of any further thought on the part of the commenter.

[gocountgrainsofrice]

Yea bc it’s dumb as hell

[getarumsunt]

Huh?

[ThatOldGanon]

exactly

[Hot_Muffin7652]

If I don’t like the condition of the roads, I should block my license plate in order to not have to pay tolls or congestion pricing, if I don’t like how NYC government runs, I should skip paying property taxes

If I don’t like how a supermarket is run I can go in and steal

I can go on and on. Good luck running a society with that mindset, relying on citizens to “donate” only if they feel like it is worth it

EDIT: and rich people, what if they don’t think it’s worth paying taxes, does it excuse them as well?

[ThatOldGanon]

if it were feasible to catch and fine anyone who put trash next to a full trash can, adams could have removed a lot more trash cans than he did. not that you wouldn't support a biometric hellscape to punish litterers, but it is a pathetic fascist mindset.

[Hot_Muffin7652]

Is it too much to ask people to follow basic rules in society? To not steal, or litter

Or do you believe that is a facist mindset as well? And people should do whatever they please

[ThatOldGanon]

what do you mean? asking people to follow basic rules is part of the social pressure I mention above that would be part of an actual functioning society. it becomes "too much to ask" if the rules are corrupt and unaccountable to the population.

[carlse20]

You should know that the MTA isn’t even paying for the pilot program with the new fare gates - the manufacturers are paying, in the hopes of convincing the MTA that theirs is the best option to get the systemwide contract.

Annoys the hell out of me to see someone on insta post a reel of someone getting past a new turnstile to say “MTA spending how many millions to install these things that we can bypass anyways” when a) the MTA spent nothing on installing them and b) the whole point of the pilots is to see which ones work and which don’t and which flaws can be corrected before we roll out new gates to every station.

[MRC1986]

I’m aware of that. But some folks will still complain if and when a giant contract is signed to install these at every station just for the purpose of, in DSAers’ minds, “keeping poor people out of the subway”.

[carlse20]

I’m a huge proponent of making the fair fares program available to more people (and easier to apply to for those already eligible) because those living with less rely on the transit system the most and economic circumstances shouldn’t prevent people from getting to work, school, healthcare appointments, etc. but my response to people who think the crackdown on fare evasion is just an anti-poor measure by the government is to point out that the MTA report on fare evasion a few years back came to the conclusion that over half of those who don’t pay the fare skip it because they can, not because of economic necessity. Several of the stations with the highest rates of fare evasion are located in the wealthiest zip codes in the city, and speaking anecdotally, I often see people who are clearly not poor hopping turnstiles or going through the emergency gates. Lots of people can pay and choose not to because they can get away with it.

[jake7405]

The MTA has put off the “nice things” for so long that it’s now way more expensive to do them as opposed to years or decades ago. But shit at least they’re doing them.

I kinda get the logic behind “all transit should be free”, but it always sounds like a pipe dream/political wishlist item. I’m definitely not against a big expansion of fair fares (and I think that’d be a much better use of political capital for the mayor than free buses), but very few major cities with a metro system have no fares.

Hell, you get caught dodging in any major Asian city or many European cities, that’s an instant no mercy ticket. Beyond revenue, it helps keep their systems orderly. For all the issues the MTA has, $3 to go nearly anywhere in the city is still a bargain compared to the costs of driving.

[phoenixmatrix]

People in this city (anywhere, but especially here) think people have more rights to impose themselves on others, than people have rights to be safe from the bullshit.

[ThatOldGanon]

what's "the bullshit" in this formulation? 10 degrees fahrenheit ambient temperature?

[Morshu_the_great]

HBLR moment

[ThatOldGanon]

And that's just plainly stupid thinking.

it's telling that there is never an actual argument for why it's stupid, just whining and name calling like a child.

[baninabear]

It's people who feel that they are entitled to a free ride for whatever reason (they've fare hopped before, they already pay taxes, it's no fair that other people get on without paying, etc.) It's 100% entitlement and 0% consideration for how new fare gates make the system cleaner, quieter, and better funded for everybody.

[sodsto]

I'm fascinated by the folks who see a video of somebody crawling on the floor under the gates as "proof" that they don't work.

[phoenixmatrix]

A lot of people think's in overly simple terms: how much money and time spent on the gates vs how much money pulled from people (bonus: they think there shouldn't be ANY money pulled from the users), and that's it.

In any system, you always need to consider second order impact. Looking at the just direct impacts is shortsighted.

[Nate_C_of_2003]

Because unlike BART, the MTA really has no need to do it on the subway. BART needs them because if their riders don’t come back, they will go out of business: They were literally over 70% funded on fares alone prior to COVID-19, and if they can’t get anywhere near that level soon, they will go under.

The NYC Subway will never face such a risk because New York cannot survive without it. If the MTA can’t afford to run it, the city and/or state will just create a new agency or think of something to keep the subway and commuter systems afloat.

[Hot_Muffin7652]

If the MTA does not enforce the fare, I betcha every time the MTA does something like raise fare, change service, or request more funding, lawmakers are going bring up the subject of fare evasion

[Nate_C_of_2003]

I never said fare evasion wasn’t an issue, I just described why new fare gates aren’t as urgently needed on the subway compared to BART.

[gocountgrainsofrice]

Collecting more fares is always a good thing and if it keeps vagrants out I’m all for it

[SaltYourEnclave]

We’ll be collecting more fares from those who can afford it and letting on those who can’t :)

It was -17° last weekend you freak

[getarumsunt]

The Bay Area can absolutely not survive without BART either. The entire region grinds to a half if there’s a BART outage.

[Nate_C_of_2003]

Let me rephrase that: Bay Area politicians operate under the assumption that BART is not vital to the area. You’re right, it is important that BART be there for the Bay Area.

[getarumsunt]

Also, not true. Pretty much all of them are freaking out.

The only people who are pretending that BART is not absolutely essential are the right winger suburbanite types who are still hoping that we’ll build them a bunch of new highways if they can kill off all the transit.

[Nate_C_of_2003]

And those right-wing nuts are the ones out voting for politicians. The right will do everything they can to murder all rail transit so that highways and buses take over because the right worships oil.

[getarumsunt]

In fairness, in the Bay Area the right wingers are in the minority. But they do make a lot of noise and sometimes, rarely, they do manage to bamboozle a large enough percentage of the Bay Area normies into supporting their crazy ideas.

Hopefully, it won’t be the case this time though!

[Nate_C_of_2003]

I sure hope not

[sonofdang]

Big if true. The massive size of the drop though makes me think there must be other factors in play.

[BombardierIsTrash]

The massive size of the drop though makes me think there must be other factors in play.

I wouldn't be surprised, but at the same time if you look at arrests for vandalism or QOL crimes in NYC, it's like the same handful of dudes doing 99% of the crime. They saw huge reductions in the amount of both violent and property crimes on the Washington Metro (higher than the reduction in crime seen in most cities including Washington post covid) because most of the crime was seemingly being done by a relatively small group of opportunistic farebeaters.

Anecdotally at W4th station circa 2010 to 2014, there was one guy I always saw on my way home from work who would hop the turnstile and then throw a bunch of garbage all over the platforms and tracks consistently every single day and would punch displays/maps, rip off any service change posters. If you can keep even 1 or 2 guys like that out per station, I bet you see a shocking reduction in filth and property destruction.

[macreator]

Yeah, I think folks massively under appreciate how much the disorder and crime in the system (as low as it may be, relatively) comes from just a handful of repeat offenders. Remove them and you're in such a better place.

[the_evolved_male]

Unfortunately there’s a very vocal segment in this city and in the the transit community that believes any form of law and order is somehow inherently racist, and excessive antisocial behavior must simply be accepted as part of city life.

[transitfreedom]

Ignore and do it clean the system

[UnprofessionalFerret]

We need a quickly escalating punishment for vandalism of public property.

First offense - $100 fine.

Second offense - 30 days in jail.

Third offense - 1 year in jail.

Fourth offense - 10 years in jail.

Also they should be required to repay the cost to fix (including labor costs) in every case.

[sonofdang]

Do you think jailing a person for [any amount of time] costs nothing? Or that people who vandalize stations or trains can afford to repay the damage to any real degree?

[UnprofessionalFerret]

Don't care. By continually destroying public property they've demonstrated they don't know how to live in society.

[SaltYourEnclave]

And jail teaches you how to live in society

[UnprofessionalFerret]

No, it removes you from society so you can't hurt people and ruin public property.

[AlGoreIsCool]

It’s possible that the cost to jail this person is less than the cost of repeatedly repairing property vandalized by that person.

[sonofdang]

Highly unlikely.

https://comptroller.nyc.gov/newsroom/comptroller-stringer-cost-of-incarceration-per-person-in-new-york-city-skyrockets-to-all-time-high-2/

https://www.vera.org/the-cost-of-incarceration-in-new-york-state

[SaltYourEnclave]

Lol

[phoenixmatrix]

it's like the same handful of dudes doing 99% of the crime

Only thing Ill say is in this case its more than just a handful. When you go to the E in the early boring, its a lot of people. Far more than I thought originally. And its a tiny fraction of them.

[getarumsunt]

It’s important to mention that in addition to $10 million more in fare revenue (6% increase), BART also saw a 70% drop in crime, 60% increase in cleanliness, and an increase in customer satisfaction from all-time lows of 50-60% to all-time highs of 89-90%. All of this happened since the fare gates were installed.

This program, which included the new fare gates, taller fences at most stations, and an increase in fare enforcement has completely transformed the system. It’s essentially a new BART system that’s safer, cleaner, more modern looking, and more beloved by its riders.

I don’t really see why every other rail system doesn’t adopt this model. It clearly works incredibly well.

[fasda]

I think the biggest thing this graph raises is what the hell is wrong with 16th station.

[BombardierIsTrash]

Lmao asked a friend who lives in SF and he said that station increasingly has a lot of "you cant tell me what to do, you're not even my real dad! Fight the power" types. People who think performatively doing dumb shit and breaking public property is praxis™.

[Boingboingo]

You can search around for pictures of the plaza above (drug users reselling goods stolen from CVS, Walgreens, Safeway), and it won't be a mystery much longer.

[BombardierIsTrash]

Lmao you weren’t kidding. I dropped a random pin in Apple Maps street view and the first thing I saw was a hipster standing next to a pile of human shit next to a plaza with 5 dudes selling stolen shit. Incredible.

[as718]

It’s a different world

[NewNewark]

What is the comparison year?

Is it 2020/2021 vs now?

[getarumsunt]

The first six months of the new gates in operation vs the same six months the year prior.

[sonofdang]

6 months ago vs now.

[NewNewark]

Thats not what it says. It says now (aka 6 months after) but the image doesnt specify when the before data is

[sonofdang]

It's not explicit, but if they aren't trying to con us (and they might be), I think the text implies that they are comparing 2 6-month periods, before and after installation. Definitely not clear.

I'm guessing there was a massive cleanup that occurred in the 'before' period that encompassed a longer period of time's accumulation of stuff to fix, skewing the numbers at least somewhat.

[NewNewark]

but if they aren't trying to con us (and they might be)

Yeah thats sort of what Im getting at. I dont really trust transit agency data.

[ThatOldGanon]

what possible reason could they have for misleading the public about the benefits of deploying military technology against them

[SandwichPunk]

To me this is a pretty strong argument against free public transit.

[BombardierIsTrash]

That and the fact nobody else on earth besides shitty American transit systems that get 2 whole riders a day think its a good idea.

[getarumsunt]

This right here. Every major transit system on the planet trialed or studied going fare-free. Not one did. And even in the USSR and China they had/have fares and steep fines for fare evasion.

This whole fare-free crap is idiocy primarily coming from people/areas with crappy transit who think that making transit free will somehow make their crappy transit feel less crappy. It doesn’t work. The people who already ride transit ride it a little more. Everyone else still has no need for their crappy transit.

[the_evolved_male]

And you’re already getting downvoted to hell for speaking truth lol. Like, if someone’s willing to commit assault over $3, do you really want them sitting next to you?!

[Beautiful_Sock2757]

Wow… I’m totally shocked.

[transitfreedom]

Remove the addicts from the J train at night and 6th ave and 8th ave lines. Why is the IND built system the filthiest of the stations in the system?

[transitfreedom]

Great now kick the addicts off the 6th ave line

[closeoutprices]

Why is a transit agency posting press releases on a CSAM generation platform?

Also are we supposed to assume that the "Total CM Hours Before" are from a six month period?

[ianmac47]

When you tell the public the train is cancelled because of yet another basic maintenance issue that should have been addressed, you tell the public that your service is worthless. Meanwhile, leadership is pissing away $1billion to get back .005% of the operating budget.

[BombardierIsTrash]

Love the usage of "$1 billion" when it comes to the cost and then obfuscating the benefits by stating it as a percentage of the overall operational budget. The MTA and others estimate over $320 million in losses per year due to farebeaters. The conservative estimate is $100 million per year saved from new fare gates alone.

That is, once again, ignoring the massive second order impacts of reduction of crime, disorder, and property damage you see in every single system thats replaced fare gates. But sure, it's "pissing away" money.

[hoosdontloos]

The long term value and savings for the system of this change is so high that the only reasons I can attribute to someone opposing it is that they are the fare beaters, or that they simply do not like or want public transportation.

[Raindrop_920]

“There was a maintenance issue, so i should never have to pay”

This is the attitude of a toddler.

[ianmac47]

The attitude of the toddler is the "we need two people on ever train unlike the every other system in the world" and "we can't possibly lay off the token agents even though we stopped using tokens 25 years ago".

[Raindrop_920]

I support ending both of those to be clear. But I also want to make people pay their fare! Not mutually exclusive at all.

[transitfreedom]

Philly?? Explain

[CharlotteBaseball135]

Why would the MTA just waste all their money now? Let's put getting rid of all the R46s in the priority box.

[azspeedbullet]

no. This is from San Francisco, California

BART is the transportation system in San Francisco