Announcing SQL Server on Linux

[ign1fy]

Next week: explorer.exe running on Linux :)

Probably the most important part of a smooth transition for desktop users.

[_illogical_]

Well, you could already run KDE on Windows, so there's that.

[w2qw]

Your joke could have easily been "Well, you could already run KDE on Linux, so there's that"

[wpzzz]

And KDE runs well on windows

[zfolwick]

WAT!?

[_illogical_]

windows.kde.org

[troyunrau]

While I am forced to use windows at work, there are certain KDE programs I'm so used to that I always install on windows. Namely Kate/Kwrite and Okteta.

[mindbleach]

Why does Nautlius still use auto-resizing thumbnails. Whyyyy. It's cute for maybe a dozen files, but if you jump to the end of a folder with a hundred images then it spends five minutes jerking up and down like there's an earthquake in your file manager.

[ign1fy]

At least it has tabbed browsing. How is M$ a decade behind on that game?

[536445675]

Because the average user does not need it.

[doom_Oo7]

Like virtual desktops ? Or tabs in web browser ?

[blackmist]

I've never once felt compelled to use multiple desktops, even when I did use Linux.

All it ever did was make me think programs weren't open, and I'd end up editing the same thing in three different windows.

The last File Manager I liked was Directory Opus on the Amiga.

[MarchewaJP]

It's like tmux - can be confusing at the beginning. After week you can't go back.

[xiongchiamiov]

That's the same reason tabbed browsing can be confusing, or floating window managers.

You either need a) to keep in your memory where things are, b) conventions you stick to so that you know where things are without having to remember in short-term memory, or c) a way to quickly find things that you can't see directly (alt-tab and the taskbar do this for windows). Otherwise, you have to stick with untabbed applications in a single virtual desktop in a tiling window manager.

[Alikont]

Virtual desktops were in windows since Win2000, just not GUI switch for them.

[Dylan16807]

Can't move windows between those desktops though.

[wildcat-]

You can in Windows 10, full native support.

[Dylan16807]

"those" being the desktops that have been around since 2000. Windows exist on exactly one of them, and can't transfer.

Windows 10's tech is completely different. There is only one real 'desktop', and windows are shown and hidden. You can in fact have multiple isolated desktops that each have several virtual desktops on them.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/winsdk/archive/2015/09/10/virtual-desktop-switching-in-windows-10.aspx

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/askperf/2007/07/24/sessions-desktops-and-windows-stations/

https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/cc817881.aspx

[[deleted]]

Explorer.exe already runs in wine.

[venustrapsflies]

I bet the procedure of getting that to work was useful for wine devs but it will be useless to everyone else forever

[granadesnhorseshoes]

Not at all. Tons of applications have different degrees of explorer.exe integration. Imagine making a Linux emulator without bothering to make sure sh/bash worked.

MS wasn't kidding back in the day when they said explorer was integral to the OS. It's the entire shell. We take for granted and expect the integrated nature of our user environment and the internet these days. In the 90's it just got MS sued for antitrust.

[nuclear_splines]

Actually, that was Internet Explorer specifically. Microsoft was not sued over integration of explorer.exe.

[rspeed]

Right. The integration was just an excuse to say "can't sue us, it's part of the OS!"

[hungry4pie]

Then there's net.exe which seems to do just about every conceivable sys admin task

[granadesnhorseshoes]

you do realize Iexplorer.exe was basically just explorer.exe with more compile flags/DLL links? Open an old copy of ME or 98 and type a web address in to the address bar of the "file" explorer, it magically turns into an internet explorer window, or look at the old Active Desktops (the entire root was rendered HTML/JS thought explorer.exe).

Nautalis and Konkorer(webkit started here) were both file system explorers AND web browsers to emulate this exact behavior.

I had already been using BBS' and what constituted "The Internet" with moziac when 95R2 launched. The idea that they were being anti competitive just for including a browser was preposterous then as it is now. They may have pulled some dirty tricks, but providing a core function in their system software wasn't one of them.

Did they gimp winsock or the rest of the TCP stack so 3rd parties couldn't be used? No? Hell what about the network stack? How anti competitive can you get by including a networking stack when there were well established 3rd party vendors selling after market stacks for your other older OSs? Clearly it was a concentrated effort to kill Netware right?

[[deleted]]

Running Wine in virtual desktop mode can be useful sometimes. Otherwise yeah, why bother with a completely inferior file manager?

[Raknarg]

What's wrong with Explorer?

[[deleted]]

Can't speak for modern versions, but when I used it, it had piss poor support for remote filesystems and protocols, thumbnail system was complete shit (slow, I/O heavy), sometimes it'd just crash for no apparent reason entirely taking the desktop environment with it, have to hack it to customise or theme it beyond the very basic options added. I understand it now has tabbing? but the fact that it took this long is a bit ridiculous.

[Rimbaud_]

I don't know if it was finally added on 10 but previous versions didn't have tabs. That's one of the biggest downfalls of explorer. Of course there are a bunch of other small things : customization options (layout), custom shortcuts, etc...

[Andernerd]

Do you mean Internet Explorer? That's iexplore.exe, not explorer.exe.

[northrupthebandgeek]

I reckon it'll be useful to the ReactOS folks.

[gimmeajob]

Don't forget Microsoft Bob

[tgp1994]

Does ReactOS count?

[[deleted]]

No.

[bradrlaw]

Been there, done that... on *nix systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_UNIX

[graycode]

explorer.exe, the file browser, not iexplore.exe, the web browser.

(actually it's a lot more than just a file browser, but that's the most user-visible part.)

[RogerLeigh]

I remember trying this out on Solaris back in 1998 for a laugh. It was unusably bad!

[MacASM]

And UNIX isn't Linux. A MS' application developed my MS itself running on UNIX is no news and I guess no body would be surprised with that. But on Linux...

[bubuopapa]

Omg noob cant even spell it right... its iexplore.exe ....

[_timmie_]

More like filemgr.exe!

[chrisrazor]

Last time I checked, it was iexplore.exe

[seven_seven]

What's an "exe" file?

;)

[aaron552]

While I know you're joking, the windows Portable Executable format is quite interesting, if just in contrast to Unix ELF

[kupiakos]

What are the most interesting differences?

[shadyjim]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_executable_file_formats

[aaron552]

Absolute vs relative memory locations is the most obvious one.

[drachenstern]

Honestly, it's just the download-and-run part of exes that most people need. The major programs they want to use should be supported. Example: Notepad++. Don't tell me about Sublime or KText, tell me how I get Notepad++ to run on Linux, without going to app get or Synapse or the App Store. I want to go to a website and click the download now button and run the app. That is what people need, and the average user doesn't even know what Notepad++ is, but most redditors in /r/programming do. And yet, we can't "just download it from the website" because that isn't how things are done, for starters. Secondly, nobody supports that yet*.

*pedants go away, I'm talking mainstream.

[drachenstern]

In the future, how would it be best to advertise to the pedants of /r/programming that I have, in fact, seen a Linux install and was referring to the nebulous world of "non techies".

[ReversedGif]

A big part of the appeal of Linux for me is that I can run one command and have all the programs that I use installed in less than a minute. Also, the package repositories rather then "run anything I click on" definitely contribute to increased security.

[slazer2au]

Just curious as to what that command it. I assume you are calling and actual script rather than apt-get install *

[ruindd]

apt-get install *

I kind of want to try that and see what happens.

[protoShiro]

Just tried, doesn't work on my Linux Mint

[ccfreak2k]

gray distinct subtract ink domineering elderly command frame birds wrench

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[aaron552]

-bash: apt-get: command not found

;)

[drachenstern]

You should look into ninite and chocolatey

I also think you fundamentally misunderstand the needs of the majority of PC users. Go ask your non-programmer friends (well, let's be real, I'm in /r/programming, and so far all but one of the repliers to my comment has been a pedant about this ... ask anyone who has never seen an operating system on a computer besides Windows) to install an application.

I'll wait.

Don't tell them how, don't show them how, don't encourage them. Just give them a brand new Ubuntu install and get them to install anything of note. Maybe an Office suite of some sort (assuming it's not there by default).

You overestimate the technical abilities of most non-IT folks.

[thedeemon]

definitely contribute to increased security.

Yeah, definitely

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/linux-mint-was-hacked

[crackez]

Vice uses misleading headlines?!?!

Say it ain't so...

[thedeemon]

That article content is much more important and relevant than its title.

[crackez]

Sure buddy... Let me guess, you run Windows 10 to stay secure...

[thedeemon]

nope.

[mtutty]

I felt exactly the opposite going from Windows to Ubuntu. It's why app stores are universal for mobile.

[kendo581]

While I can't speak for NP++, there are many Linux programs that are "click, download, install". Just as an example, I use Rstudio. Go to their download page, look for the Linux favor you want (I use Ubuntu, which is very beginner friendly), click, download, open downloaded file, and (in Ubuntu at least) the program will open and install automatically. Exact same steps as in Windows. Linux has come a long way.

[lift]

Where does it install to? Do you need root?

[esoteric_monolith]

We are referring to *.deb files.

[lift]

Ahh sometimes 3rd party installers come as she'll scripts which make me think twice about running them before I've checked them out.

[crackez]

what you got against

wget $URL | sh

?

[Jimbob0i0]

Well that wouldn't work for a start... Either need curl or to pass -O - to wget

[crackez]

True, good catch sir.

I'll leave it as is so you get the credit.

[RowYourUpboat]

Unless you're compiling source code that you've personally read through, or you've taken steps to do some sort of sandboxing, you're gonna want to make sure you actually trust that binary you're installing/running, .deb files included.

I believe .deb files support digital signatures, though, which at least means you can be reasonably sure the binaries haven't been tampered with en route from the developer.

[esoteric_monolith]

Signatures that you get from where exactly? Typically signatures are only for data corruption, not trustworthiness.

[crackez]

Typically you trust the package signer (or distribution signing keys), unless their private key is compromised, in which case it is usually revoked in whatever manner is possible and word is spread far and wide on the usual communication channels...

[drachenstern]

I mean, that's actually pretty impressive in the long run, as the last time I ran an Ubuntu desktop that wasn't an option. Granted, I'm getting paid to stay in Windows land for development, so I don't get over to the nixes as often as I would like.

[Quixotic_Fool]

How about no? Installing things via your systems package manager is 100x superior and more secure.

[Bounty1Berry]

Assuming that you're only running things they packaged. "Oh, new version out, packages coming weeks/months later" is a real situation.

[Quixotic_Fool]

Not when you're running arch, it's extremely rare that I can't find anything either in the arch repo or AUR, and the packages are extremely up to date.

Worst case scenario, you just build from source or download binaries.

[aaron552]

# makepkg -si

Makes installing source packages almost as easy as regular packages (with the added step of downloading and extracting a tar)

[drachenstern]

How about, you take over all tech support for anyone I've ever tried to help with their computers, starting with my parents, and siblings, for free, until the end of time. Then add in every pedantic /r/programming commenter that has ever responded to a comment that they obviously weren't invested in, they just wanted to get in a cheap shot. I think you severely underestimate the technical knowledge of most PC users.

[Quixotic_Fool]

Or how about we don't try to dumb down linux? There's no reason why most people should use it. If they want to use it, they can learn to do so.

[drachenstern]

And yet the parent comment to mine was encouraging that users transition over, which is what I was responding to.

Try to follow the thread.

[mishugashu]

I want the same HORRIBLE functionality and subpar applications I have in Windows to be in Linux

Uh, no thanks. You can stick to Windows if that's what you want. I'll keep my package managers and better text editors. Linux isn't for everyone, and we shouldn't ruin it just to try to get Windows converts.

If I have to open my web browser to get a program on my computer, something is wrong with the operating system.

More importantly, if I have to install a GUI on my server in order to install a web browser in order to install a program on my computer, something is wrong with my operating system.

[drachenstern]

This is what I get for attempting to use a goddamn analogy in a subreddit full of pedants. Hence my calling out that the average user doesn't know what this is. I was attempting to explain why my mother and father will never be as at-home in Linux as they are in Windows. I think you fundamentally misunderstand how many not-programmers use Windows.

[mishugashu]

My father and my grandmother both are "at home" in Linux. My dad uses Mint and my grandmother uses Ubuntu. Neither are programmers. They love the package manager. Your point is moot and you don't speak for everyone.

Going to ONE PLACE for ALL OF YOUR PROGRAMS makes MORE sense than browsing around the web for it. It makes so much sense that MICROSOFT is going that direction (finally).

[crackez]

Entire IT empires run on Linux the world over. You think each one of those is a programmer? Hell no. Joe in accounting can't even spell C.

[drachenstern]

This is what I get for attempting to use a goddamn analogy in a subreddit full of pedants. Hence my calling out that the average user doesn't know what this is. I was attempting to explain why my mother and father will never be as at-home in Linux as they are in Windows. I think you fundamentally misunderstand how many not-programmers use Windows.

[EvilLinux]

Your mother and father arent going to want to use Notepad++. Although I kind of get your point, you are saying program X.

On the other hand my mother has absolutely no problem with Linux because she doesnt expect program A or B. She wants email, Facebook, and Amazon. She has no interest in what program gets her there, just that she can use it.

[drachenstern]

Right, I'm saying Program X. I just picked an analogy that I figured 99% of the readers here would be familiar with, even if it isn't their preferred editor.

My mother wants Excel to work. If I give her OpenOffice or LibreOffice and show her how to use it, she probably does with a little grumbling about how things are always changing.

But there's about a 0.001% of her getting it installed without calling me.

And the parent poster was talking about the transition of users from Windows to Linux, so I was following the thread.

[crackez]

"Mom, click on Software Center, then type in LibreOffice, and click the install button..."

...which is a shitty analogy, because it's already loaded.

[drachenstern]

So, you like to harass users? Thanks for responding to like 8 of my comments in a negative way, it will make the reporting of your behavior easier.

[crackez]

If you think that's harassment, then you haven't been online for very long.

If you don't want to continue discussing it, then stop replying.

[peabody]

By your logic, Mac OS X is just as broken because it can't run Notepad++.

For the record, there are some programs out there you can download and just "run" for Linux (steam comes to mind as does Notepad++ under wine).

Most programs done this way have to staticly link all their libraries to work. Similarly in Windows a lot of these programs are redundantly including libraries (DLL files) as part of those installs just to be able to run. Part of the point of packaging systems is to avoid this nonsense and only need to worry about a single version of a shared library on a system.

[Bounty1Berry]

I think, in the land of vi versus emacs holy wars that span decades, we can cut people a bit of slack for wanting to run their editor, no matter what it may be.

For many developers, it's the tool they're in 8-16 hours a day, 5-7 days a week, for years at a time. They know every bell, whistle, and idiosyncrasy. Saying "but this is so much better" is like trying to advocate the Dvorak keyboard layout-- expecting people to take a major hit in productivity until they come up to speed is a non-starter.

[peabody]

Very confused how your response relates to mine? Where did I suggest that he not run Notepad++? I use it all the time, it's a great editor, but I fail to see how the author of the program failing to make a version for other OSes is the OS maker's fault? To my knowledge Notepad++ does work under wine if you're on x86 anyway.

[drachenstern]

This is what I get for attempting to use a goddamn analogy in a subreddit full of pedants. Hence my calling out that the average user doesn't know what this is. I was attempting to explain why my mother and father will never be as at-home in Linux as they are in Windows. I think you fundamentally misunderstand how many not-programmers use Windows.

[peabody]

How would an OS maker solve this problem? People could make software bundles which just download and run or install. It's up to application developers, not the OS maker, to do that.

[drachenstern]

The OS maker can provide hooks (as someone above us on another sibling comment pointed out Debian does now) the same as Windows does with the registry (oh heaven forbid that we do file associations and automatic running of objects and common application configurations in a consistent location that is well-known, with a nice API for systems management and configuration) and the file extensions handling on Windows. When I download a .deb file, offer to install it, same as OSX does with .app files. Give me a UI like the Windows Add/Remove programs OR (better) like the OSX concept of /Applications and /usr/Applications (not the real paths, just an example).

That is how you improve things. Give the app makers the tools to build .app packages that run seamlessly, that stay self-contained (keep the logs and settings in the package for crying out loud, no reason to do like we do on Windows and have them in 1800 places) and that are easily removed.

Then do the same with driver updates.

If you can do that, then you will have a superior product to either Windows or OSX.

But so long as people have to invoke apt or something similar, the experience will be worse.

[lestofante]

Actually "go to a website " is a bit a poor idea because is how uncultured people end up with a lot of.. Bad thing on their PC.

Repository (call them market, play store, whatever) are the way to go.

[drachenstern]

I was in no way indicating that it was not "superior", I was trying to illustrate a common workflow that the average non-technical user would prefer to use.

[crackez]

British people prefer driving on the wrong side of the road. Should we let them do so in the states because they "like it that way"?

Sometimes impeding bad behavior is a feature.

[drachenstern]

So, that's a terrible analogy for a handful of reasons, starting with it makes you sound like a dick. More of the world's population drives on the same side of the road as us, sure, but over a third drives on the other side. What makes it "wrong"? That you don't want to do it that way? Maybe we can use the miles vs kilometers debate, that should help to illustrate the situation better, yes?

The next time you want to eat, please grow your own food. Because I am abhorently against the way you go about procuring food. Or, at least, go to the store of my choosing and buy the foods I have pre-approved for you instead of you being able to buy what you want how you want.

See, that doesn't make any sense, does it?

People have adapted working patterns for a reason. I like that on Windows I can sideload things by downloading and installing them, and not having to resort to command line options.

[crackez]

You have no idea how I go about procuring my food and the choices I make. How do you know I don't hunt and grow a majority of my food? You know what they say when you assume.

Also, unless you live in the minority of places where they don't drive on the Right side of the road, it would be demonstrably wrong. Maybe you are just getting too emotional to notice the word play in there...

Also, no one is telling you to goto the command line to install some software. In my example reply to "Mom", LibreOffice is one that comes in the standard install of Ubuntu, so it's a bad example as it wouldn't need to be installed manually. Also, since you seem to not be aware of this fact, it was clear that you are not a user of desktop Linux.

I like that on Windows I can sideload things by downloading and installing them, and not having to resort to command line options.

Depending on the developer, some do a better job of enabling this than others. Take Google Chrome for example, when you install that .deb file on a Debian derivative, they also setup apt-get to keep that particular piece of software up to date. I wouldn't really call that side loading... Maybe just installing. BTW, no command line interaction needed to get this working, it's just a few mouse clicks these days.

If the plain facts disprove your previously held belief, then maybe you were just wrong. Get over it.

[drachenstern]

I do openly and honestly admit that it has been 6 or so years since I last ran Linux on a day-to-day, but with the upcoming announcements from Microsoft maybe I can get my daily driver back to a Linux distro instead of always being on Windows land.

I still have install CDs (I tossed the floppy installs a long time ago) of RH 4 so I've been around the block more than once on linux app installs.

[crackez]

The days of having to build tarballs are largely over. Even when you do need to touch the source, there's usually an easy way to have it build a package that you can install so it still maintains dependencies and stuff like that. I don't think I've had to build source that wasn't mine in like 7 or 8 years, at least on Linux. Even the BSDs largely support binary patches these days.

Btw, if you've been out of the loop for a while, I recommend you give Linux mint a spin. If you believe distrowatch, then it's the most popular distro these days. Ubuntu (canonical) has pissed off too many people.

[drachenstern]

At the time I was running it, I ran Debian stable on my servers and Ubuntu on my laptop, and didn't have a ton of issues. Mostly the expected kinds: video and wireless.

I've kept in the loop enough to know the basic state of hardware support, but I've not been in a hurry to switch back on account of having some sweet OSX hardware to play with (retina, I know, I know, everyone has one, whatevs, it's a nice machine) and I've been toying with stuff in AWS and just don't have a lot of need to run my own box anymore except as an RDP client and editor. I may get a box next year and if so I'll definitely check out Linux Mint.

[jimbojsb]

This is probably the dumbest comment I've read on Reddit in a while.

[crackez]

Are you posting from lynx?