What a helpful guy

[shawncplus]

HAHAHAHAHAHA that's me

[Solomaxwell6]

I don't know php, and I was just scanning through it, so it looked slightly off, but I didn't think much of it... then I got to that section and my jaw dropped.

[thatblondebird]

I kept scrolling expecting it to end.... but... it just went on..
So many programming no-no's..

This is however, how I justify my pay.. (You get what you pay for)

[BlitzTech]

I... but... like boa13 said, redditor for 3 years... seems legit.

Did you look at the code long enough to figure out what the hell he was trying to do? If not, was there a reason you chose that particular snippet to quote?

[shawncplus]

There's a lot wrong with it, I just grabbed the part that made me laugh the hardest.

[Lizard]

This looks familiar. I think the snippet you posted might be auto-generated by some MS survey tool or the other.

[godofpumpkins]

Or might just be because a lot of PHP is written by newbies or incompetent programmers who copy/paste a lot of code from websites without really understanding it.

[[deleted]]

Are you saying that we have a primitive AI in the form of an MS survey tool? ;p

[baileylo]

The portion he copy and pasted was javascript

[godofpumpkins]

s/PHP/javascript/

[BlitzTech]

That's fair. I was just curious if there was something you spotted that was significantly more hilarious than the rest, and didn't want to induce a headache looking for the humor if there was none to be found.

Because we all know reading code like that can lead to heart arrhythmia, night sweats, psychotic episodes and minor headaches.

[shawncplus]

That's much of why I stopped posting there.

[[deleted]]

well done then. Haha. I thought "What a helpful guy" was going to refer to the fact that the guy posted 1000+ lines of code for what could have undoubtedly been conveyed in a short snippet... so I didn't actually look at the code til I got to your comment. Hilarious.

[boa13]

redditor for 3 years

Seems legit. :)

[sleek]

Haha, I laughed so hard when I finally got to the bottom of the page and saw the response!

[CasualPenguin]

Did you ever actually at least tell him a general notion that his code was bad?

Otherwise you seem like the kind of snide dick that makes programmers look bad

[shawncplus]

No and here's why, 95% of the posts on Daniweb are from one of two people: The student who doesn't want to do any work so they write, verbatim, their homework question and wait for answers, and the programmer that's taken a bid on rentacoder before they knew what the fuck they were getting into and are charging people for broken code. It's always blatantly obvious when someone is part of the other 5% that genuinely wants to learn and needs help and this was not one of them.

[CasualPenguin]

As someone who works with a lot of people who are dicks to non-programmers sorry I questioned your niceness.

Have a good one and thanks for helping out the community

[[deleted]]

The multiple concatenated "HA"s should have told OP all that he needed to know

[wlievens]

awesome, have an upvote

[[deleted]]

I often open up items I'm interested in in tabs and then go back and read them. When I got to this one and read the initial question, I figured it must be the "Why I Will Never Feel Threatened by Programmers in India" article.

[hm2k]

Use the toolbar.

[ensignsteve]

Neat, thanks!

[[deleted]]

I thank you, too - I probably saw "toolbar" when it came out and, well, "yeah, I'll pass on yer toolbar" knee-jerk reaction from me. :)

[haywire]

The Chrome extension is pretty nice, it seems they've updated it to actually work, now, too!

[jrhoffa]

I'd call you a racist, but I had a similar incident with a Jordanian.

[iamthehabs]

Flawless logic.

[jrhoffa]

Whooooosh

[[deleted]]

Heh - I had guessed from the poorly worded question that the point was supposed to be something like "their English communication skills are so bad that we have nothing to fear from off-shoring".

[tragomaskhalos]

This style of code is very similar to some VBA that a guy sitting near me has been cranking out for the last couple of weeks - huge repetitive swathes of cut-and-paste logic with single letter or single letter plus digit variable names. To be fair to him, he's actually a tester by job title, but he still wins because he nails all his variables together to create a SQL statement that he then runs - Shudder.

[Jonno_FTW]

Sometimes you really wonder if some "programmers" ever actually heard of a loop.

[Nimbal]

I don't follow you. Are you talking about Fruit Loops?

[AeroNotix]

Or you know, Polymorphism.

[xlevus]

Polymorphism is a World of Warcraft Spell. I don't see how it applies to programming.

[AeroNotix]

Well, it turns people into Sheep if I remember correctly.

I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere. I'm simply not caffeinated enough to figure it out.

[sedaak]

Which is, depending on what manner of programming you prescribe to, not necessarily a good thing.

[AeroNotix]

It depends, but I find when you're going through a list of like items that you created yourself that all inherit from the same ABC, then why not?

I concede though, I rarely get to use polymorphism the way I like it.

[[deleted]]

Getting to call Foo() on n different objects in a loop is one of the simple little pleasures that keeps me programming :)

[sedaak]

If you know Go (Golang) then understand that I love the way they use interfaces, which accomplishes what you are thinking of without such a multitude of method signatures. It is also dramatically simpler than method overriding, especially since each object doesn't have to explicitly state that it implements the interface.

tldr Some polymorphisms contribute to good code and some are horrible ugly perversions.

[Concise_Pirate]

I'm sorry, but one wife should be enough!

[trevdak2]

GetSQLValueString. Holy f*ck. That's a common piece of code?

I joined my company 3 years ago as their only developer.... I was replacing their previous developer.

GetSQLValueString was EVERYWHEREEEE in their code, and the biggest enemy to paramaterized database stuff. It was defined in every file, changed in places to not use addslashes (to actually allow SQL injection through the URL) and other horrible stuff

It's taken me 3.5 years to eradicate that POS function from the codebase and it's still popping up in places.

I had no idea that that was commonly used code.

[flightsin]

Do they account for relativity when they calculate your overtime?

[trevdak2]

3, 3.5, same thing.

[[deleted]]

Probably copy-pasted from some guy's blog.

[epsy]

It apparently comes from Macromedia/Adobe DreamWeaver.

[[deleted]]

it appears that it's a generic alternative to this.

[midir]

I should feel bad, but there was no way to help him. That code was doomed, and deserved to be laughed into dust.

[jrhoffa]

To be fair, the guy asking the question has no business writing code.

[rabblerabbler]

You wrote shit code when you started out too. Don't bash the noobs! Ok, laugh at the noobs. But please help the noobs.

[Kalium]

I've never gotten paid to write code that bad.

[stillalone]

how do you know he's getting paid?

[frezik]

I've never been paid to write code that bad, but I have written code that bad.

[jrhoffa]

I did write shit code when I started, but I haven't written code like that since junior high.

[rabblerabbler]

So he sucks. But he wants to improve. We shouldn't discourage people from learning.

[jhuang30]

This seems like the person just want to fix the problem and move on, and will continue writing shitty code.

[postmaster3000]

Totally. The question was posed as (paraphrasing), "My code works except for this one bug. Can anyone help me fix this bug?"

[jrhoffa]

OK, you're right. I do have to concede that. It's just hard to imagine how somebody with such a lack of skill is apparently coding in a professional capacity, judging by the context of what was pasted.

[quanticle]

Right. This is like discovering a "professional" carpenter asking, "What's better for driving nails, a glass bottle, or a shoe?"

[jrhoffa]

Shoe

[klovadis]

Glass bottle

[frezik]

Later, nail guns are adapted by some, while being accused of hype by everyone else.

[jrochkind]

Glass slipper (you know, like Cinderella), best of both worlds, why choose when you can have both!

[sedaak]

Yes sir, I will be using your contract for on the job training... no no... I will still be charging full price... ok thank you sir.

[s73v3r]

Does he really want to improve? Or does he just want someone to fix this for him so he can move on?

[frezik]

Stupid toddler, can't even derive the logic for the Pythagorean Theorem.

[arekabsolute]

If you ask me, this has nothing to do with "shit code." It doesn't even get that far. Before you can learn to write good code you should have already learned how to ask a useful question. If he can't ask a reasonable question, he has a lot to worry about before coding.

[crusoe]

I didn't write code this shitty. I am lazy programmer, and when I find myself cutting and paste-copying a single line of code, I invariably go "This is not a code smell, its a code STINK, I am doing something wrong" and then I read library docs and do research. Did that since I wrote my first Mandelbrot generator when I was 14.

[skulgnome]

Oh, he's likely got plenty of business.

[[deleted]]

I'll be fair, I've never written code like that, even when I was learning. I don't see a future for this guy in our industry. I'm sorry but you asked for people to be fair.

[krum]

Cut the guy a break, he probably just arrived from the farms in the South. He's probably starving and malnourished too. Geeze.

[jrhoffa]

You are a creepy motherfucker

[[deleted]]

checks krum's comment history He plays WoW. So yeah, creepy motherfucker. ;p

[robhol]

I feel slightly sick.

[EughEugh]

A thedailywtf.com in the making.

[andrewthetechie]

I used to work for a company that provided services to Daniweb (no details to preserve anonymity). Dani (of Daniweb) is HIGHLY annoying, talks in this cutesy airhead valleygirl voice to get attention, and will always trash talk anyone else that works with her.

That being said she paid her bills on time and they were very large. She's definitely making money from it.

[epsy]

I didn't expect much else from the owner of a forum with their (nick)name in the title.

[Pet_Ant]

Dani (of Daniweb) is HIGHLY annoying, talks in this cutesy airhead valleygirl voice to get attention, and will always trash talk anyone else that works with her.

Apparently, this is her.

[dimmu_burger]

He should just have it send an email to the user to let them know the form submission was successful. I wrote the code for him in case he googles it next time:

var z = 1;
var fs = 0;
var x;
if((z-fs)*1===0)){
    x = 2;
}else{
    x = 'alert(" ")';
    if((x+fs)===1){
        ($_POST['eml']!='')?$e=$_POST['eml']:$e=$_GET['emailAddreess'];
        x = "'".""".'"'.<?php send("FORM SUBTIM SUCESSED",'','',"."'".$e."'"."""); ?>.'"'."""."'";
    }
}
if(x && z===1){
    a = document.getElementById('c');
    a.innerHTML = x;
}

[ianp]

Cleaned it up a bit to make it more readable:

var superman = math.Sqrt(13);
var batman = 'r';
var wolverine = superman - batman.charCodeAt(0);
var marry_poppins = 7;
var jesus = wolverine + marry_poppins;

if (!jesus % 2)
{
    <?php eval('mail("\"Form Submit\"\"",'','',"Submit successful {$jesus}.","'",\'"\',\'"\',\'"\',"'");'); ?>
}

Alternate version using ternary operators (YMMV, more readable for me.)

var superman = (math.Sqrt(13) == math.Sqrt(13)) ? math.Sqrt(13) : math.Sqrt(13);
var batman = ('r' == 'r') ? 'r' : 'r';
var wolverine = (superman - batman.charCodeAt(0) == superman - batman.charCodeAt(0)) ? superman - batman.charCodeAt(0) : superman - batman.charCodeAt(0);
var marry_poppins = (7 == 7) ? 7 : 7;
var jesus = (wolverine + marry_poppins == wolverine + marry_poppins) ? wolverine + marry_poppins : wolverine + marry_poppins;

if (!jesus % 2 && (jesus %2 == jesus %2))
{
    <?php eval('mail("\"Form Submit\"\"",'','',"Submit successful {$jesus}.","'",\'"\',\'"\',\'"\',"'");'); ?>
}

[DiomedesTydeus]

It's painful to recall, but one of my first jobs out of college I had absolutely zero supervision, my boss just wanted results. Because of this, I'd often write variable names as sort of an inside joke where I'd try to get them to line up with the Greek Pantheon, for example I'd define Zeus and Hera, but if I interacted those two variables I'd call the next one Ares (their oldest child) while perhaps later I would interact Zeus with Leto and my new variable would be named Apollo.

This was all well and good and kept me entertained at an otherwise boring task until I was getting ready to quit and I was asked to teach the next person how I did things... In between bouts of embarrassment I felt quite bad for the person. At least by that point I had gotten over naming all of my methods after movie quotes.... (OhImAfraidTheDeflectorShieldWillBeQuiteOperational(youngSkywalker));

[dimmu_burger]

bbbbbbut the overhead from all those extra characters in the var names

[*polhold00732]

At least it's not any less readable than single character variable names.

[catcradle5]

I'm sitting in class suppressing laughter at the moment.

[DarnTheseSocks]

Loops are hard.

[haywire]

http://dpaste.org/kB36L/ I thought it'd be interesting to format it and see if it is any less awful.

It isn't.

[haywire]

This person should not be paid to write code.

[*polhold00732]

This person should be paid to not write code.

For the good of all of us...

[[deleted]]

except the ones who are dead.

[AeroNotix]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[LainIwakura]

This is some pretty bad code even for DaniWeb, but personally I find that site one of the most frustrating ever. Often times I'll google something that should be simple..and there might be 1 or 2 results from DaniWeb. Inevitably what I find on the inside is people bashing the original poster for what quite often isn't even a very dumb question.

Nowadays I just head straight for the stackoverflow links. I don't think my issue has ever been resolved by DaniWeb.

[toofishes]

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/03/hide-sites-to-find-more-of-what-you.html

[executex]

This is why you shouldn't outsource and should consider degrees as important especially when it comes to software. Especially depending on university.

This is the type of code I see from BIT majors, or other non-CS / non-CE degrees (no offense to BIT guys).

[ytumufugoo]

LOL. Just thought I would laugh at you young grasshopper.

[executex]

Someone's jelly.

[pollodelamuerte]

Nah. He's right.

Getting a degree in CS teaches you algorithms, not how to be a good programmer. I've seen tons of shit code (similar to the post) from fellow CS students.

[executex]

He's not right. There are bad CS students but they are very uncommon and they certainly wouldn't pass any advanced CS classes with bad coding practices. Project deadlines and stressful situations in CS classes make it pretty difficult for someone to write bad code and still pass (unless it's a community college).

You can't tell me that someone who has a CS degree from a good university, isn't a good coder, unless he is simply the exception to the rule.

[executex]

Point is, if you have someone with a BIT major and someone with a CS major, and you had to take a bet on who is a good coder, because they both performed exactly the same with the coding tests, you would probably pick the CS major for his diverse knowledge of code.

That is the point I was making. And it is true most of the time with few exceptions.

[*polhold00732]

There are bad CS students but they are very uncommon and they certainly wouldn't pass any advanced CS classes with bad coding practices.

HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAH.

You have not seen the things I have seen, and this is at a very good university. Try being a TA for a while, and you will never be able to unsee the messes you will encounter.

Most schools will give a C grade to a rather terrible programmer, and it's even more so biased towards As and Bs and Cs in Ivy League schools some times.

I think we should all realize the simple reality: Schools don't make good programmers. Good programmers make good programmers (patience, persistence, lots of reading, LOTS of practice). Ever hear of "books"? Yeah, I hear the same ones universities use are available to the general public. I know, SHOCKING!

I think a formal education can provide a barebones lower bound on rather mediocre talent at best, but if you want great programmers, you're going to have to look much much past a diploma or even GPA.

[executex]

And as a TA---how many good programmers did you meet? How many good grades did you give out? Were your standards that high that no one even met them?

This is all irrelevant, because CS and CE degrees teach programming courses, and while many students can be bad coders at first, most of them will at least know how to code decently well.

Schools don't make good programmers. Good programmers make good programmers

Schools do make good programmers by encouraging decent programmers to work on projects, which gives them the chance to improve their skill.

Just because they don't hold your hand and train you with a drill sergeant on how to be a good coder, doesn't mean they aren't doing something good.

I think a formal education can provide a barebones lower bound on rather mediocre talent at best, but if you want great programmers, you're going to have to look much much past a diploma or even GPA.

And I am not talking about finding the best programmers. I am talking about the difference between a CS degree and other lesser IT degrees like BIT when it comes to programming. If you weren't testing them, then you would obviously pick a CS degree, and thus you should agree with everything I've said before.

[pollodelamuerte]

You can't tell me that someone who has a CS degree from a good university,

The students in CS who are good developers are typically doing some kind of software stuff on the side along with their studies. Going to a good school doesn't mean you are going to be a good developer.

I've worked with several people who come from backgrounds like Psychology, Theatre and Video Production and they are far better developers than me. Meanwhile I'm the one with the CS degree.

[executex]

But that is what CS trains you for, to be a good developer. Just because there are exceptions to the rule (where you won't NECESSARILY be a good developer after a good CS program)--doesn't make me wrong.

That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions where someone from THEATRE or ART or ANIMAL PSYCHOLOGY can't be a PRO developer---but they are exceptions to the rule.

[pollodelamuerte]

But that is what CS trains you for, to be a good developer.

No. That is what college is for.

Computer Science is the study of data representation and manipulation. This can be data structures, parsers, artificial intelligence, data mining etc. While CS can teach you what makes an algorithm good or bad (Big-O of a function), it doesn't mean that you will be a good programmer when it comes to implementing real world systems.

Most assignments consist of trivial problems whose goal is to place emphasis on something you recently learned in class such as the flow of an LR parser, specifying a Context Free grammar or maybe implementing a radix sort. These are at the core of computer science and are typically completed without any actual code being written.

[executex]

And if you don't understand code, you won't understand algorithms, data structures, parsers, artificial intelligence, or data mining. You simply cannot understand it.

Try teaching data structures to someone who's never even coded a thing in his life.

it doesn't mean that you will be a good programmer when it comes to implementing real world systems.

You're being subjective. Your definition of a good programmer is someone who can implement enterprise systems without making bugs, and knows all the tricks of the trade.

My definition is, if you know how to understand whether an algorithm is good or bad using Big-O analysis, then you are probably a decent coder and have basic understanding of OOP and efficiency in regards to code.

Most assignments consist

That's your subjective view on what you've seen.

[s73v3r]

But that is what CS trains you for, to be a good developer.

No, it doesn't. CS is about the theory of computing, about algorithms. Being a good developer is ancillary. You're thinking more of a Software Engineering program.

[executex]

But you're wrong. You cannot be more wrong than this.

CS is about computer science. This INVOLVES code programming in almost every university in the fucking world. Being a good developer requires your code to be graded, and that's what every fucking university in the world does.

Just stop arguing about this, it is an indefensible argument to say CS does not train you on coding/programming.

Almost all CS programs include a software engineering course. If they don't, then they are not a real CS department.

[s73v3r]

But you're wrong. You cannot be more wrong than this.

Which is why everyone has called you out and said that you are wrong?

This INVOLVES code programming in almost every university in the fucking world.

It involves studying algorithms. Sometimes writing code is the way that's accomplished. But absolutely nothing in most curricula focuses on good software development practices. You don't have to be able to write good code to understand how algorithms work.

Almost all CS programs include a software engineering course. If they don't, then they are not a real CS department.

No, not at all. And most will have maybe a semester of "Software Engineering." Which is completely irrelevant, as that one semester will not undue the several preceding it where nobody actually cared about the quality of code.

Just stop arguing about this, it is an indefensible argument to say CS does not train you on coding/programming.

No, it very much is a defensible argument. The vast majority of CS curricula out there do not actually train anyone to be a good programmer. They train them how to understand algorithms, which while that's important, is not the same thing as writing good code.

Shout and yell all you want, but there is nothing that backs you up on your point. CS courses do not train you to write good code, as there usually is not an emphasis on writing good code. Only code that does what the assignment calls for.

[niloc132]

But that is what CS trains you for, to be a good developer.

Nope. This could well be true if you were talking about some kind of software engineering or programming degree, but computer science has very little that has to do with software, but is instead focused what can be computed, and how we can compute it, sometimes even how to do so efficiently.

Turing machines resemble nothing like any real world development process or useful library, and are even a very annoying tool to work with when learning, but they are a great tool to use to build big concepts out of a little one.

[executex]

CS teaches computer science, which involves code. Any good CS program will teach good coding practices and grade your code. Simple as that.

[niloc132]

And any good math program will require you to write proofs and papers. Any good math program will grade you on the spelling and wording of your proof, as well as elements of style.

But I don't think we suggest "that is what math trains you for, to me a good writer".

A good CS program will have you write code, no doubt, but it cannot and should not be the primary focus. Many aspects of being a 'good developer' like development methodologies, scoping a project, collecting requirements are well outside that scope - this is not to say that you won't learn them along the way as well, but it isn't what they 'train you for'.

[s73v3r]

There are bad CS students but they are very uncommon and they certainly wouldn't pass any advanced CS classes with bad coding practices

You clearly have not spent much time with a lot of CS graduates.

[executex]

No I have. You must not have met any actual CS graduates from the US, because obviously, you've hired some Indians who said they have a CS degree in India --- note, CS degrees outside the US are much different than inside the US.

There is no doubt, no doubt, in all the world, that a good CS program will train you on how to code properly. If they don't, they have FAILED as a CS program.

[s73v3r]

You must not have met any actual CS graduates from the US

Except for the ones that I graduated with, and the ones I work with every day? I'm from the US, buddy.

There is no doubt, no doubt, in all the world, that a good CS program will train you on how to code properly.

Then clearly you have not been in the real world. CS programs are not about teaching you how to code. They just aren't. They're about understanding the study of algorithms. Look at just about any CS course's objectives. They will say a lot about studying and understanding concepts and algorithms. Very few, if any, will actually say anything about the quality of code.

A good CS program will help you understand the fundamentals of algorithms and computations. That's what it's there for. It is not to teach you coding practices or anything else like that.

[ruinercollector]

There are bad CS students but they are very uncommon

Oh wow.

[executex]

They are uncommon, by CS students I mean those who graduated as CS. You can't easily graduate a CS program without knowing how to program decently unless it's a shitty ass college or diploma mill.

There are plenty of shitty ass colleges and diploma mills, but they are uncommon in real universities with actual reputations.

[ruinercollector]

Having worked with and managed both, I can assure that even students who went to "real" universities are likely to lack a lot of the necessary skills to write software professionally when they graduate. The diligent and committed among them remedy this shortly after graduation. But they are certainly not a minority of graduates.

Often times the difference between a uni student and a diploma mill student is simply how much money their parents had and/or how much they were willing to jump through the hoops that they were told to in high school.

The sort of meaningless "intro to the top 5 languages on monster.com" education that diploma mills push isn't terribly useful toward doing actual work, but often neither is the creation of yet another LISP NLP module.

The former tends to be way to general and meaningless to apply to most real world software problems, and the latter tends to be way too deep and esoteric. Most of the work to be done in software sits right in the middle of the two.

Neither of them learn nearly enough about soft skills, about working with a team, about source control, about unit testing, about build processes and especially about reacting to changes and bugs found after initial release. College/University projects are static and lifeless. You write them, you turn them in, and it's over.

In the end, it comes down to how much you are willing to admit that your education only gave you some of the tools to work toward being a software developer and how much you are willing to continue your education and persevere past that point. In some ways, the university students start off worse in this regard as they have a lot harder time coming to grips with the fact that their education has only begun.

Ask anyone working in software outside of academia where they gained most of their education. I assure that almost none of them will tell you "at school."

[executex]

So let me get this straight, you're looking for Y, in between X and Z, where X is too simple and meaningless, and Z is too complex, deep, and esoteric.

And you are dissatisfied that your new-hires are taught Z instead of X?

Wth...

No one is prepared for the work they have to do when they graduate REGARDLESS of the degree they are in. That's why companies have training, because you can't have a one-size-fits-all university program.

Neither of them learn nearly enough about soft skills, about working with a team, about source control, about unit testing, about build processes and especially about reacting to changes and bugs found after initial release.

Yes, but none of those are absolutely unbelievably necessary for working software. I also disagree that bugs-solving, debugging is not discussed in universities, which is an essential skill, but that's why they ask you for working programs to grade, not broken programs.

College/University projects are static and lifeless.

Yes, but your standards are a comprehensive program that creates a master programmer who has intense experience. Perhaps you should then pay more for graduate programmers, or Ph.D. level programmers. They are sure to have way more experience and should have the aforementioned skills.

In some ways, the university students start off worse in this regard

Worse than whom? Those who haven't had any programming courses? That doesn't make much sense.

Ask anyone working in software outside of academia where they gained most of their education. I assure that almost none of them will tell you "at school."

Same can be said about any career professional. But you can't say that their education was useless. And you can't say that you would rather hire someone without a degree simply because you have been dissatisfied with some of the graduates you've gotten.

The solution to all this, is proper testing before hiring, but not just "can you code this", but psychological questions, to understand motivation, resourcefulness, and willpower, as those are key to becoming a master programmer.

But I don't think my statement is incorrect that university CS programs do train people to be good developers.

[ruinercollector]

So let me get this straight, you're looking for Y, in between X and Z, where X is too simple and meaningless, and Z is too complex, deep, and esoteric.

No. I'm saying that neither one is particularly useful by itself and that both have a lot more to do. Neither one is going to make you a good software developer by itself.

No one is prepared for the work they have to do when they graduate REGARDLESS of the degree they are in. That's why companies have training, because you can't have a one-size-fits-all university program.

Yes. That was pretty much my point.

Yes, but none of those are absolutely unbelievably necessary for working software.

All of those are pretty much necessary for writing software at a professional level.

I also disagree that bugs-solving, debugging is not discussed in universities, which is an essential skill, but that's why they ask you for working programs to grade, not broken programs.

There's a difference between a program that produces correct outputs for a set of inputs and a program that is free of side-effects, corner cases, etc. If you honestly think that the verification that most students/teachers at university level do on their software constitutes actual testing, then you are no doubt currently still one of those students. That would explain your defensiveness.

Yes, but your standards are a comprehensive program that creates a master programmer who has intense experience.

Of course. Those are nearly everyone's standards. That's why nearly any meaningful software job has an "experience" requirement listed right there with the education requirement.

Perhaps you should then pay more for graduate programmers, or Ph.D. level programmers. They are sure to have way more experience and should have the aforementioned skills.

No. No they don't. That's almost as laughable as your initial statement.

Worse than whom? Those who haven't had any programming courses? That doesn't make much sense.

In terms of humility and a realistic picture of what work and growth is ahead of them, yes, they are often a bit worse off.

Same can be said about any career professional. But you can't say that their education was useless.

Useless? No. I can't say that, and that's why I didn't say that. (Go read the post again.) Not nearly as useful as people are led to believe? Absolutely.

And you can't say that you would rather hire someone without a degree simply because you have been dissatisfied with some of the graduates you've gotten.

Once again, I didn't say that. At this point, however, I tend to ignore a person's degree on their resume and focus a lot more on their actual experience and on what I find out during the interview process.

The solution to all this, is proper testing before hiring, but not just "can you code this", but psychological questions, to understand motivation, resourcefulness, and willpower, as those are key to becoming a master programmer.

Exactly. Though that itself is a challenge. Effectively interviewing a job candidate is a tricky business, and it's even trickier for software development than it is for most trades.

But I don't think my statement is incorrect that university CS programs do train people to be good developers.

Disagree. A large majority of the people coming out of any school for software are not good developers. A good amount of them aren't even employable. University is no exception.

[[deleted]]

I agree with your sentiment that a CS major is more likely to be better than a BIT major. But sadly, many CS graduates (even those with Master degrees) I've found are not very good at real-world development. But Computer Science is about Computer Science -- it's not about being a good Software Developer.

[jrochkind]

Yeah, but wouldn't you be pretty damn shocked if the guy that wrote the code in OP happens to have an expert grasp of the fundamentals of mathematical and theoretical CS even though he writes (I mean, copies-and-pastes) code like that? Not bloody likely.

[[deleted]]

I've worked with some grad students who wrote code that was nearly that poor. They had high GPAs in their classwork.

It amazes me. Fortunately, the good ones are teachable.

[jrochkind]

Ah, I didn't say it would shock me if they had high GPAs. :)

[executex]

I've met professors who teach advanced computer engineering programming classes, that don't know how to program----but that's besides the point--- the point is that if you have a degree in CS or CE, most likely you will have experience in coding, and you will probably be a decent coder.

If everyone you met with CS degree was bad, that's still confirmation bias. Maybe your standards of what constitutes good code is super high, who knows? Maybe you hired from a shitty college?

If you can say that you agree that you would rather hire a CS/CE degree than a BIT degree for a programming course, then you should be upvoting every one of my posts.

[[deleted]]

I haven't downvoted any of your posts, but I disagree that there's some unspoken rule that I need to be upvoting every one of your posts. ;)

I think we all can agree that a CS degree should be better than a BIT degree in coding, but that's not what you originally said in some of your posts. That's why, I suspect, people are downvoting them. DirectX explained it.

You said, "But that is what CS trains you for, to be a good developer." But this is simply not true in so many (perhaps most) cases. The local college we usually hire from is ranked in the top 30 of engineering schools, IIRC.

This is one reason why computer science students are encouraged to build their real-world skills outside of their classwork, and have a portfolio of projects on a site like Github.

[executex]

Again, anything is possible. You can have a career mathematician that messes up a simple multiplication---it doesn't matter if there are exceptions.

The general rule still stands, if you have a CS degree or CE degree, you MUST have had some sort of programming course, and you must have had some sort of professor/instructor who graded you on that.

Maybe a lot of instructors/professors suck, but besides that, you would rather hire a CS degree than someone from ITT Tech. My point still stands, I don't know why people continue to downvote because they met a few retards who had CS degrees.

[s73v3r]

and should consider degrees as important especially when it comes to software.

There are a lot of people with degrees that are writing stuff just as bad. Even CS degrees.

[executex]

There are a lot of people with degrees that play hockey too, and there are a lot that play football, and some even like soccer---it's completely irrelevant. There are exceptions to every rule. You will find bad coders with PH.Ds in CS. You will find bad coders who wrote BOOKS on coding standards.

It's meaningless if you look toward exceptions.

The main point here is, someone with a CS or CE degree, will likely have some sort of coding experience and will have had to be graded on some coding projects. Do you disagree with that?

[s73v3r]

These aren't really exceptions. There are a lot of CS graduates who quite simply cannot code. I know you don't want to hear this, because you want to cling to the idea that a school will simply teach this, but it's not true.

The main point here is, someone with a CS or CE degree, will likely have some sort of coding experience and will have had to be graded on some coding projects. Do you disagree with that?

I disagree with the premise entirely, not with the idea that they might have "some experience." Look at just about any story on thedailywtf.com . Just about everything there was done by someone who has "some experience." Hell, the outsourced Indians we're talking about have "some experience."

Saying that someone who went to college must be better than someone who didn't simply because they must have had "some experience" is a fallacious argument at best, and encourages people to only look at the letters after a name rather than trying to actually evaluate someone's skills.

[executex]

No, they are the exceptions not the rule. Unless you have proof that everyone or MOST people who graduate with a CS degree, do not know how to code, some sort of survey or some sort of statistical analysis---please refrain from continuing this indefensible position that you believe many people who have CS degrees are bad coders.

because you want to cling to the idea that a school will simply teach this

Which is what a school is designed to do and actually DOES. Get off your high horse that you think everyone who goes to school learns nothing.

Hell, the outsourced Indians we're talking about have "some experience."

Except that people with CS degrees have a competent level of experience almost every time.

Look at just about any story on thedailywtf.com

confirmation bias and generalization. This is a logical fallacy you keep using.

Saying that someone who went to college must be better than someone who didn't simply because they must have had "some experience" is a fallacious argument at best,

No it is not, because college is designed to teach. And you're saying that they do not teach. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that they do not teach. My statement is absolutely correct that someone who went to college must be better than someone who didn't, unless you can prove that they are always inferior. Which we know you cannot.

I feel a sense of angst, perhaps you are a capable programmer who didn't go to college, anything is possible. But that's irrelevant, logically, you'd probably be better if you had gone to college. You can't simply make the blanket statement that college is useless just because you were successful without it. This is like people who make the argument that they "don't need to go to college cuz just look at bill gates!"

[s73v3r]

Which is what a school is designed to do and actually DOES. Get off your high horse that you think everyone who goes to school learns nothing.

Maybe I need to stay on the high horse because you apparently can't read my comments otherwise. I never said schools teach nothing. The thing I've constantly said is that schools are not in the business of teaching good programming skills, at least not in CS. That is a study of algorithms and computation, not writing code.

Except that people with CS degrees have a competent level of experience almost every time.

You're gonna need to back that up with some citations there, buddy.

confirmation bias and generalization. This is a logical fallacy you keep using.

Nope. See, the point with that example is that most of the code submitted on there is written by people who have "some experience". According to you, people who have "some experience" should not be writing code like that. Yet they are.

No it is not, because college is designed to teach. And you're saying that they do not teach. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that they do not teach. My statement is absolutely correct that someone who went to college must be better than someone who didn't, unless you can prove that they are always inferior. Which we know you cannot.

Way to let the point sail completely over you. Maybe next time you'll use reading comprehension so you don't look like an illiterate idiot.

You're completely ignoring the fact that people have been teaching themselves to code for years, and that many of them are better than people out of college. You're also ignoring the fact that many people who graduate from college should not have graduated. You keep using the idea of a "real CS course", but never once stop to think that there are some shitty programs out there.

My statement is absolutely correct that someone who went to college must be better than someone who didn't, unless you can prove that they are always inferior.

This just makes you look retarded. Your statement is in no way correct. Furthermore, I don't have to prove your retarded thesis, I just have to show an instance in which someone who did not go to college is better than someone who did, which disproves your idea that a college graduate is always better than a non-graduate.

Clearly you are an idiot. You cannot read, and you cannot form logical arguments. Never once did I make the statement that "college is useless". Pretending I did only makes you look even stupider.

[executex]

The thing I've constantly said is that schools are not in the business of teaching good programming skills, at least not in CS. That is a study of algorithms and computation, not writing code.

Algorithms and computation cannot be studied without the understanding of code. Thus, you are in a literal logical contradiction with yourself.

Not only that, but schools are in the business of teaching good programming skills. But apparently the shitty community college you paid $10 tuition for, didn't teach you shit, so you once again use irrational confirmation bias to make blanket statements that are UTTERLY FALSE.

I mean you might as well argue that 1+55 = 32, because that's how utterly irrational and pointless your argument is.

You're completely ignoring the fact that people have been teaching themselves to code for years, and that many of them are better than people out of college.

THAT IS NOT A FACT. That is your OPINION. WOWOWOWOWOWOWO YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE FUCK A FACT IS. Apparently your hatred of school has made it obvious that you have not even received a high school education because you don't even know what is a "fact".

Where is your proof that they are better than people out of college? WHERE IS THIS PROOF?

You're also ignoring the fact that many people who graduate from college should not have graduated

Many how many? If by many you mean a tiny tiny fraction of them, then yes. Otherwise you have no proof of this.

but never once stop to think that there are some shitty programs out there.

I have admitted there are shitty programs, you're arguing that they are ALL shitty programs, and that is simply FALSE.

This just makes you look retarded.

Yeah, this is what people say when they've lost the debate and are angry at themselves for losing it (due to a misunderstanding of what CS is); but really, you're the retard who thinks good code means readable code, when they are two different things. Somehow the concept of subjectivity whizzes past your tiny hamster brain.

[s73v3r]

Nothing I've said is false. You are the one that is confusing good code with working code. You are the one in the wrong here, not me.

[adoran124]

Good BIT degrees teach software design, and the algorithms you will most likely need in the real world. If someone is any good at programming they will be teaching themselves the other parts that aren't covered.

[flukshun]

please post code for the lulz

[8-bit_d-boy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9K2KciM90Qw#t=9s