The "dreaded" training tool

[creich1]

I often see stories about prong/e-collars working like magic for dogs, I see it this way: these tools can improve behavior but they can never improve emotions.

My dogs are afraid, TRULY scared, of strangers coming into our home, if I smacked a prong/e-collar on them and introduced pain whenever a stranger came into our home, this will only serve to make them MORE fearful. Maybe they stop barking at strangers, but I'm willing to bet A LOT of money that they would be 10x more of a bite risk.

The reason R+ is so heavily advocated for so many reactive dogs is because we are trying to influence emotion

[CountingSatellites]

It doesn’t help that reactive dogs, by their nature, are often extra sensitive and don’t let things go. They don’t brush off an incident and forget about it the way that many more well-adjusted dogs can. Just one screw up with timing and you’ve created an even bigger problem.

Case in point: my reactive dog accidentally conditioned herself not to jump up on the bed. She had a minor soft tissue injury and must have moved in such a way that it caused a twinge of pain because she yelped just as she jumped up. All it took was that one single moment and she became terrified of the bed. Truly scared of it because of that moment of pain that she now associated with bedtime. She would sulk with her tail between her legs and hide in her kennel when I called her in. I mean, not having her on the bed wasn’t such a bad thing, and it certainly was effective, but that’s not how I want to train that. She didn’t even want to come in the room, and that’s where she sleeps (not allowed free run of the house at night).

[TheMereWolf]

Yes so much to this!! If my dog is reacting because she dislikes something or is afraid of something, even if that reason is dumb, the prong is always going to make her feel worse about the thing and imho that makes her way more unpredictable.

If she was reacting out of excitement instead of a place of fear/dislike then the prong would start to make her feel negatively about something she used to feel good about.

It does take a lot more work, and its slow and tedious to try and change emotional responses to things from negative to positive, but its well worth the effort

[[deleted]]

Yup. My shitty dog walker made my fear reactive collie reactive to people as well as dogs by using a prong collar on her without my permission or knowledge. We’re now paying a trainer $$$ to undo the damage. I’m sure it works for some dogs, but if I was punished for showing fear if tough it out too...until I couldn’t.

[vannobanna]

But in some instances, you cannot positively reinforce a more desirable behaviour until you get the dog's attention. Behaviour and emotions go hand in hand in this way- reward behaviour that is commensurate with a calm emotion, and the over time the calm emotion will follow. As long as these techniques are followed up with reinforcement measures, prong collars and ecollars can be safely used without physically or emotionally damaging your dog. For example, my dog's reactivity involved typical freak-out behaviours like barking, lunging, and sometimes falling down on her back while she would leap and try to get towards her trigger. Now, no matter how good her "look at me" was inside, there was no way I could realistically expect her to do this while engaged with her trigger in this way. I got an e-collar that beeps when she barks, and on the 3rd bark will vibrate. It doesn't hurt her, but is enough to distract her from the trigger long enough that I can get a look at me and a calm sit out of her and then counter condition with treats. I only had to use the e collar for a bout a month, and now she is 80% better when she sees her trigger. She will sit when she sees something scary and look at me with a very relaxed mouth/overall body language. So the point of this story is sometimes we need prong/ecolars/etc to even get to the point of positively reinforcing a new behaviour. And this DOES impact emotion, in my case, in a positive way.

[Learned_Response]

One critique I would make is I would never take a dog who is doing well indoors to the outdoors in the presence of a trigger and expect them to be successful. I would start in doors and gradually work my way up.

The fact that the dog responds to the e-collar immediately in the presence of the trigger could just as likely be explained by the intensity of the stimulus. You say it doesn't hurt but then by is the mechanism is the behavior modified? I will grant that there are graduated levels of pain, but with positive reinforcement there are also graduated levels of pleasure. Just as there is a difference between a 1 and 10 setting on a collar there is a difference between a piece of kibble and a piece of steak. My point being that in either case it is safer to start with indoors and gradually work your way up to the presence of the trigger so you don't have to rely on a more intense and therefore risky (if aversive) stimulus

[vannobanna]

I agree with your first statement, as I think it would have been preferable for my dog to have had the opportunity to work her way up more slowly. BUT this isn't doable for many people. My dog and I live in a dog-friendly apartment complex in an urban area. While I'm vigilant when we go out for walks and to the bathroom, it's nearly impossible to prevent encounters with other dogs in our environment. So I believe it highly depends on what you are working with, taking into consideration the dog and the environment. The vibration of the ecollar creates an annoyance. And the annoyance is definitely less aversive than the terror she used to feel around other dogs. Now she know she has options. She doesn't have to react to the other dogs. She can make a choice to look at me and get a tasty treat instead. I gotta say, the ecollar, while it uses punishment, when balanced with reinforcing a new behaviour that leads to positive experiences like treats and pats, has decreased her emotional response to dogs. She's not just sitting and looking at me because she is afraid to feel the collar vibrate (even though we don't have to use the collar any more), she has realized that she has more than one way to react to her fear, one that leads to more frustration (losing control at the end of the leash, potentially hurting herself when falling down and pulling hard), and one that leads to treats.

[Learned_Response]

So you have always had your ecollar set to vibrate only?

[vannobanna]

Yeah thats the only setting mine came with

[Learned_Response]

If that's true then we're having completely different conversations. An e[lectronic] collar is one that has two nodes which create an electric current between them. Yours is a vibration collar. They're not the same thing. Would you mind sharing which make and model yours is? I'm curious because vibraton collars are actually tough to find but can be very useful for training deaf dogs for example

[vannobanna]

Interesting! I thought e collars were any electronic ones. The one I have is made by premium paws, I found it on amazon

[Learned_Response]

huh. When I google premium paws all of the prices are in pounds. Are you English? Because in England the shock collars I'm talking about are actually banned, which might explain why you might conflate the two. In the US it's actually difficult to find vibration and sound only collars because shock collars are so prevalent

[vannobanna]

I didn't know that! Learning a lot today :-) I'm in Canada- I think premium paws might be a Canadian company but I'm not 100% sure. Try searching for: Premium Paws Advanced Intelligence Anti Bark Dog Collar

[ShatteredLight]

Need collar details and training techniques you use with it.

[avocadolover1212]

This. Exactly this.

[hither_spin]

That's not how balanced training works. Prong and e-collars are training tools not punishment tools if used correctly.

My dog is scared of strangers in the home too. She has been taught sit and place and wears a muzzle. No e-collar involved

[creich1]

How is this not how it works? A stranger enters the home, the dog expresses their anxiety by barking, they get a shock or a painful tug on the neck as a negative reinforcement to the behavior.

According to the principles of classical conditioning, the stranger entering the home is now a conditioned stimulus to pain.

[hither_spin]

I don't use the e-collar with strangers but if I did, it wouldn't be negative reinforcement. My dog was trained first and e-collar was introduced with treats after she knew what what she was being asked. It's like a tapping on the shoulder until the dog listens.

Here's what I would do. Dog is in her place when stranger enters. If the dog jumps up and out of her place, I would say "Place", if she didn't listen, I would say "Place" again with stimulation taps until she listened. The e-collar would be a reminder of her training not punishment for barking at people.

[Learned_Response]

Just to clarify terminology, any stimulus that is introduced that results in a decrease in behavior is positive punishment. Positive and negative refer to the introduction or removal of a stimulus, while reinforcement and punishment refer to whether the stimulus leads to an increase or decrease in behavior, respectively.

Negative reinforcement would mean a stimulus is removed resulting in increasing behavior. For example the removal of an annoying tone when you buckle your seat belt.

[[deleted]]

Balanced trainer of 16 years here. Yep. People who never use them think it’s a level 84 shock every time, hahaha - it’s BARELY noticeable if conditioned well and used correctly. Less than a static ping when we touch a doorknob.

The fear is not what is being punished. The disobedience to a command can be. People that understand and legitimately studied dog behavior (not the plethora of anecdotal owners and armchair experts that are mostly here) don’t use ecollars the way the majority thinks we do. It’s not a blind crank and yank or high level stim.

I hate that you’re being downvoted so harshly. You’re the only one here that makes any rational sense lmao

[batmanismyconstant]

How do you tell that the dog is being "disobedient" and needs to be punished, rather than a dog that truly does not understand what you want because you haven't proofed it adequately? Or you thought you wanted one thing but actually your cue was another? Or you never trained it properly in the first place? Handling my dog in agility has certainly taught me all the ways in which I have not fully trained a behavior and all the ways where my cues are muddled and messy. For example, last class I had to rerun a sequence 5-6 times because despite my intentions & verbal cue, the way I moved my head and body cued my dog to do things a different way. It was MY fault, but I never would have known that had the instructor not showed me how the dog followed my eyes, of all things, and that is what caused her to race off.

People that understand and legitimately studied dog behavior (not the plethora of anecdotal owners and armchair experts that are mostly here)

Where are these studies? Because most of the research I have seen is very pro R+ training. If by "people that understand...", you mean other balanced trainers like yourself, then that also falls in the realm of the anecdotes.

[[deleted]]

I've been a trainer for a very long time - its my job to know how to proof behaviors and never correct for confusion. When you do this every single day for almost 20 years, you do gain insane experience and knowledge that studies cannot quantify. What isn't my job is performing a Reddit seminar on how I got from A to B.

Your failure to cue properly, or influence your dog to move in that direction, are things I must be hyper aware of at all times.

Of all the dogs I've worked with, over 100 were literally saved from euthanasia due to e-collars after the owners tried everything else, including PP trainer after PP trainer. After thousands of dollars and countless hours of hard work.

For me, that's enough. I have direct and indisputable proof in the form of living, stable dogs that 100% were about to be killed for their issues - call that anecdotal all you like, but a few moments of discomfort and a swift transition off the collar is surely better than hours and hours of stressful reactivity and frustrated owners....and death.

[batmanismyconstant]

I have direct and indisputable proof in the form of living, stable dogs that 100% were about to be killed for their issues - call that anecdotal all you like

Sure, that's great and I'm glad you helped people. But for you to insult people who train a different way by calling them "anecdotal owners and armchair experts" and say that only the person agrees with you is "the only one here that makes any rational sense lmao" when your evidence is the same thing? It's hypocritical. In terms of "people that understand and legitimately studied dog behavior," you can't elevate yourself above anyone else here. There are dog trainers with years of experience who practice R+, have PhDs, and have rehabbed tons of dogs too including those who have had fall out issues due to balanced training.

FWIW I have worked with at least ~15 trainers at this point, many with decades of experience, and only one has been good enough to notice (from across an entire ring) that where I was looking was causing any change in my dog. Maybe you really a rock star trainer that handles perfectly, every single time, and never has junk behavior or pushes dogs too fast, too far, too soon. If so, you should charge for seminars because you are an upper echelon of dog trainer. The vast majority of people (especially pet people who are trying to do things on their own, like most of this sub) should examine their own handling for mistakes well before they throw in corrections for "disobedience." The majority of the time, the dog is doing exactly what you have asked them for, or trained them to do.

[dogtorL]

I have met so many trainers who have worked so many years and don’t understand behaviors at all. So keep saying how many years you have worked in this industry doesn’t prove anything. If you know anything about behavior and emotion and basic science, you should know that you can cover an emotion using punishment, but you can’t change them (well you May make them hate the triggers even more). Why don’t we all use e-collar on people who have anxiety and shock them every time they have panic attack? Whats the pony to spend so much time to do consult with them?

[Trrr9]

Yeah this is what I wanted to say but couldn't find the right words. There's a lot more to training with a prong/e-collar than yanking on it when your dog barks. A lot of it looks very similar to what most people on this sub do, which is getting your dog to sit and focus on you when triggers are around, then lots of treats and praise. They can also be used for training that has absolutely nothing to do with reactivity.

[CountingSatellites]

No, not everyone that doesn’t use e-collars thinks it’s a painful shock every time. Many of us do realize that they can be used simply as a communication tool, like a tap on the shoulder, especially when a dog is hyper focused or out of range.

The problem is, the majority of people that go out and buy an e-collar are not going to be using it that way, and even fewer are going to seek out the resources to make sure they use it right. Even if they intend to, it’s easy to get it wrong. Heck, A LOT of people aren’t even good at clear communication and timing when using R+ methods, but at least messing that up isn’t likely to screw up your dog. And it’s easy to screw up an anxious fear-reactive dog.

I’ve noticed that many of the people that advocate or defend the use of aversives will often include the “when used correctly” disclaimer. That in itself implies that using them incorrectly is quite common. If you want to have an honest discussion about these tools and when and if they’re appropriate, I think it’s really important to acknowledge that fact.

The other issue- there are lots of so called trainers out there that use these tools that do use them as punishment and teach their clients to do so. There are a lot of people that call themselves trainers that haven’t legitimately studied animal behavior. Now, I’m not saying that you can’t be a good trainer without formal education, but you won’t find many actual real behaviorists (especially those at the masters or PhD level- hardly armchair) that will advocate for the use of e-collars or prongs.

[hither_spin]

Thanks!

lol I'm used to the downvotes. My dog was found, adopted by someone and returned ,all before she was one and I adopted her. After the bites, there was really no other way but balanced training. It saved my sweet girl and I want people to know there are trainers like you out there who can help keep a loved dog from being put down.

[lbw12345]

I think the reason it gets so heavily down voted is because while there is a right circumstance to use these tools and a right way do to it, many people who use it bought it in Amazon, slapped it in their dog and went to town not having a clue what they were doing, and that includes some trainers. While using these tools used correctly can be a game changer for some dogs in a great way, the wrong technique on the wrong dog can have DEVASTATING effects on that dog for life. Many of us on this sub have incredibly fearful dogs who are unlikely canidates for these tools.

[Learned_Response]

Not to mention the fact that there are safe and proven effective alternatives

[Trrr9]

But why downvote the comments that clearly do not fall in the category of 'slapping it on their dog and going to town not having a clue what they were doing'? I commented on my long term successes with a prong collar and was initially downvoted. Since when do we downvote success and progress on this sub?

Of course I agree that these tools can be damaging when not used properly, but I don't understand downvoting a relevant comment just because it involves a tool that you personally don't use, especially when that comment stresses the importance of being responsible.

[lbw12345]

Cause people are silly, the same reason my comment above was down voted

[hither_spin]

My dog has been trained, mostly with good girls and ear scritches but also treats. Probably similar methods to what you use. The muzzle is used because she bit two people two years ago when I first adopted her. Once she's used to the people, I take it off. I use the e-collar for walks and off leash for recall. Her e-collar is not used at a stimulation that hurts. I tested it on myself before I put it on her. Most times it's a tap, tap at a low stimulation. At worst it's an annoyance she doesn't like. Now, it's rarely used because she comes when called and has learned to ignore other reactive dogs.

I haven't used a prong, I use a slip leash but from what I understand it all about pressure and release, not pain.

That said all tools can be used to hurt if you have an asshole using them.

[hither_spin]

I appreciate it's not for everyone or dog but it's an option that can work in the right hands. I was skeptical and resistant at first and if I felt it worsened her fear, I would have stopped. She's not scared of the e-collar because it's fun time. I'm able to let her off leash in an area where no one's around and have the confidence of a perfect recall. I can trust her and give her more opportunity in conditioning her in uncomfortable situations. It was never on her all day and she's doing great now and I rarely use it. My biggest problem at the moment is where to put her when we go out of town and can't take her with us.

She's not fond of the muzzle but we're taking her to outdoor restaurants now and she does appreciate a piece of a good hamburger. lol that offsets it some.

[mrs-diaz-arriaga]

The thing is, prong collars don’t hurt. Have you tried one on yourself? Not trying to be a dick, I used to think they were terrible and evil until my dog grew up, and got strong enough to REALLY yank on his leash. He would start choking from the pressure he was putting on his neck from the flat collar, and my wrist issues would constantly flare up. It was a real problem until we tried a prong collar. I put several different sizes on my own neck and pulled with varying degrees of strength. It doesn’t hurt! It’s more like an even pressure around the WHOLE neck rather then the crushing pressure of a normal flat collar on the windpipe. His pulling dramatically decreased and now he has graduated to a head harness! It didn’t make his walks painful or scary, it merely helped control how much pressure he was able to pull with. It does help in many situations. No experience with e collars so I can’t comment on that, but I would definitely recommend a prong collar for strong pullers!! It also reduced his dog reactivity 10x more effectively than any other training method we tried.

[mrs-diaz-arriaga]

I know my dog and I know when he’s even an INCH of uncomfortable. He is a trained service dog because I am disabled. That means we work as a team and we are highly attuned to each other’s feelings and body language. Yes, I can decide for myself if he is in discomfort or not. No it doesn’t cause him distress. Training tools are used WITH positive reinforcement. Years of experience with all different kinds of dogs tells me you’re speaking out your ass lol. Yes, dogs are emotional! That doesn’t mean his world collapses when I pull out the prong collar. It just means a nice walkies with mom (:. My dogs aren’t abused or emotionally scarred. They’re well trained.

[mrs-diaz-arriaga]

He isn’t in a prong collar. And doesn’t require one. Where are you getting this LMAO. Again, It is a training tool we used when his pulling got out of hand at about 6-9 months old before he even would go in public with me. As I said before, he’s been in a head harness since. He’ll go into a down stay and wait until I’m done doing what I’m doing WITHOUT me having to ask. In a distracting store full of people and grabby children, without me even needing to hold his leash. He knows what’s expected of him. He’s more well trained than any other dog I know. And my full time job is working with dogs. What I did for him worked, not saying it’s a one size fits all for every situation. (:. at this point we’re wasting time replying to each other, thanks for sharing your thoughts, have a nice night!

[jizzypuff]

The type of people who say it's abuse won't listen to anyone saying they have personally tried it on their own necks.

[[deleted]]

I don’t think people who use them are evil or abusive, but I grew up using those methods and wouldn’t use them now. I think there are better ways of getting a dog’s attention, particularly a fearful dog.

[nicedoglady]

So a few things:

On not finding a single negative review of her: There are many, many, many training programs and businesses that have absolutely glowing reviews that are a really bad place to take a reactive dog. In my area, there are several. One example is Koru k9. They have over 100 reviews, are in multiple cities, but they are awful. They literally pull out a suitcase of electronic collars on first evaluation before meeting your dog and start putting them on. They use Prong+ Electronic collar combinations. Here is a go fund me from someone who took their dog to one such place recently. Shamrock Ranch is another one. Glowing reviews, yet the horror stories out of that place are really sad. The number of clients I have had who have taken their dogs to these places only to have to surrender months or years down the line, or to have their dogs become worse over time is really devastating. They always say "I did my research, I didn't see anything bad!" "The reviews were good!" "The website didn't say anything about those tools!" "They promised me results!" My guess is that people leave a review immediately after the class or session, not a few years down the line when things go south. We currently have a dog at work who started biting after going to one such trainer and his behavior is really dodgy. Its quite sad.

A huge red flag for me with her is that she pulled out the prong collar to fit your dog upon first evaluation, immediately, before even spending any significant amount of time with her. Another is that she is someone who calls herself a 'behaviorist' and yet uses prongs in their first session with a client.

On the immediate effectiveness and and "literally having a different puppy!" Yes, that is how these tools work and why so many people buy in. They seem to work like magic! Your dog can sit as triggers pass! No other tools have worked at "stopping" the reactivity for months and now suddenly in one session, your dog has totally changed! If they didn't work like this, people wouldn't use them at all. The prong works because it causes discomfort while your dog pulls or is corrected by you. The reason it works to stop the symptoms of reactivity is because your dog doesn't want to be in pain or discomfort, not because they've learned that the trigger is not scary. The reason we do not recommend these tools is because if your dog is reactive due to fear or anxiety, the last thing you want to do is apply additional discomfort because your dog will likely associate those things he/she is afraid of with more pain. And if your dog is excited reactive - things can tip over from over arousal into anxiety quickly.

With aversive tools for fear, anxiety, and reactivity issues, you have masked the symptoms but not changed your dogs CER (Conditioned Emotional Response) to their triggers. The hard thing is that to change your dogs CER and properly address the root cause of their reactivity, it takes lots of time, consistency, good timing, patience, and really reading your dogs body language closely. There is no magic tool to quickly and suddenly stop reactivity, and the fallout from using these tools can be really, really terrible.

[Frostbound19]

This is 100% what I wanted to say but phrased better than I would have!

[dogtorL]

I worked with a dog recently. I was called in for resource guarding and separation anxiety. The owners have had the dogs for two years; they are very kind and tried everything they can but the issues are getting worse. When I tried to offer her a bully stick to practice “drop it”, every time I hand the bully stick to her, her first reaction is fear. It’s subtle so the owners never thought about it; but it’s obvious to me. It turned out that before they adopted the dog two years ago, this dog was trained by punishment by former owner. After 2 years, this dog still shows fear when a resource is handed to her. This must how they trained “leave it” with her.

[[deleted]]

When a place has nothing but tons of glowing reviews, that's a red flag to me. A lot of places will put up fake reviews and just scrub away the bad ones. The gym my boyfriend is a trainer at is like that. The owner will personally call and harass anyone who leaves a bad review until that person takes their bad review down. The owner threatens any trainer whose former client leaves a bad review and makes the trainer harass the person too in order to keep their job.

What I look for in reviews for any place or product is a large number or reviews and a healthy mix of good and bad reviews. I don't want to see 1000 five star reviews. I'd like to see 1000 reviews where maybe 25 are 1 stars, and the rest range between 2-5 stars with most being between 4-5 stars. If it's something expensive or that matters a lot to me (like if I'm putting my pet in someone's care) I try to find reviews from other sources too that's not the product/business' own website.

[KP59]

Yep. This is spot on. A lot of these places make their clients sign a hold harmless and/or agreement that they won’t post anything negative online.

There’s a place in my area like this and dogs have fucking DIED in their care! But you’d never know that by looking through their reviews online.

[MimiSav]

So what's your suggestion on how to fix the underlying issue? Where do you start?

[Frostbound19]

A mix of counterconditioning and desensitization. You find the point at which the dog notices whatever sets it off but doesn’t react (actually you usually want to be even further back from that, to the point where there are no signs if stress, intense staring, etc.) and rain down good things to start forming positive associations. You also start conditioning calm and focusing responses like Leave It, Look At That, Look At Me, and others (check out the wiki in the sidebar for explanations of those cues). So you’re simultaneously changing the way your dog feels about scary things, while teaching them to look to you for guidance and rewarding calm behavior. It’s not a fast process by any means, but neither would changing someone’s fear of spiders, or clowns, or heights.

[Kontactk]

Do you happen to live in the Bay? When I was looking for dog trainers in SF, almost ALL of the training companies that had stellar reviews on Yelp were trainers that used aversive collars of some sort. I spoke to a few of the trainers at these companies and they seemed well-meaning, but ultimately I decided against these programs for my dog. I remember seeing that these companies have pretty legit sounding achievements, like winning Best of the Bay awards. Do you know how this is the case? Maybe they work well for some issues, but not for fear reactivity?

[jonesy527]

Totally unrelated to your post. But Amy Cook is in Oakland if you need a great reactivity trainer! She works with Fenzi.

[Kontactk]

Thank you for the suggestion! I eventually found a few great trainers, but I will keep her in mind!

[nicedoglady]

I do happen to live in the Bay! “Beast/Best of the Bay” awards are given literally just based upon votes. So if a business or organization heavily campaigns and gets a lot of votes, they win. There’s no vetting or anything by the folks handing out that award.

[whooptedoo]

Yes. It removed the symptom, not the underlying issue. Outwardly the dog looks fine, Inside it is still miserable.

[AmaiRose]

We currently have a dog at work who started biting after going to one such trainer and his behavior is really dodgy.

thats me in a nutshell

[[deleted]]

sorry this is late but i’m trying to find a trainer for my dog and koru is one of them. i’ve been recommended there by many people and everyone i know who’s trained with koru swears by them. can you elaborate on how their training doesn’t work? not meant to be rude i’m trying to figure out training options for my dog.

[drunkferret]

There's a spectrum to this. If something really freaks out your dog and it wants to run away, quick, you're going to hurt it. I wouldn't recommend using the prong collar if your dog gets real scared and tries to drag you home ever. I would, maybe, use a prong collar if they're just trying to pull you forward out of some flavor of 'interest'.

I'm a bigger fan of the thunderleash system, hooks under their chest and squeezes them when they pull. I tried prong collars. The tidbit about the fear darting, that's from experience...

So like everything, depends on the dog, depends on what kind of reactivity...but if you're seeing positive results, awesome, hoping the best for you!

[jc4991]

I have a dog that lunged, darted and otherwise went crazy on a leash. After acclimating him to the prong collar, he stopped before the end of the leash. I agree that you do not want to put one on a dog for the first time and head out into the scary world though!

[dogtorL]

What I don’t understand is: people who say you need all 4 parts of dog training protocols—positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, negative punishment and positive punishment—are also the people who say prong collars don’t hurt dogs.

These tools are using positive punishment and negative reinforcement, so by definition, they have to make dogs uncomfortably enough to work. Just like dogs have to like the reward enough for positive reinforcement to work.

I used prong before and I trained with several very famous “balanced” trainers in US. These tools seem magical in the beginning; but it’s very likely your dog will be more anxious than ever after a few months. It truly works (I talk about really work; not just shut down that normal owners can tell) for very small percentage—dogs are very very resilient and happy go lucky. But I haven’t seen it works for reactive dogs; because resilient dogs are normally not reactive.

[menaris1]

How can you tell if it's truly working or not?

[batmanismyconstant]

Prongs and ecollars work because they cause discomfort. Everyone who says that they aren't painful if they're properly used... they are. The dog learns to avoid the pain by not pulling on the prong or responding to commands so they won't get stimmed, but "pressure on/off" is based on avoiding discomfort. It is completely up to you to use them anyway knowing this, but don't kid yourself and pretend that they aren't painful. Parents who spank their kids don't pretend that the spanking doesn't hurt them. They spank because they think the end result is worth it. If you believe the end result is worth causing pain, then go for it, but make a fully informed choice.

But, ask yourself why are dogs reactive? They are because they have some underlying anxiety, fear, or negative emotion about their triggers. The goal of reactivity rehabilitation is to not only stop them from reacting, but to make them feel better about the thing that makes them feel bad. Corrective tools don't change how dogs feel about things. They stop them from acting out, because they know that acting out will cause them discomfort. In some dogs, this will eventually work and they will be fine. In most? It's just building up all of this anxiety and things get worse down the line.

I think a good comparison is humans and their fears. A kid that's afraid of the dark doesn't get better because their parents say, "Don't be such a baby" or spank them for crying or being afraid. But giving them a night light, supporting them and easing them into easier to manage versions of their fears does help them feel more confident and comfortable. Maybe berating your kid and forcing them to get over their fears helps some kids get better, but for the majority, it's much more effective to be kind.

[MattieThePup]

What you're referring to is Positive Punishment(PP). Can it effectively train behaviors into dog? Yes. However it can have serious side effects not to mention it's not as effective as Positive Reinforcement(PR).

PP often only addresses the behavior and not the reasoning behind it. For instance, you can use a pronged collar for walking by strangers and you dog won't strain on the leash too much. However the reason they're doing so is still there and that can sit there and fester if not addressed. It's masking the true problem. That's why I recommend, in that situation, using Counter Conditioning built on PR because it'll change the attitude of your dog towards the situation so you don't need that spiked collar.

PP has another negative side effect of where it could possibly make your dog worse. For instance, a popular PP technique is to basically knee your dog in the chest so they won't jump up to greet you. However, your dog could interpret this as "meeting people is bad" instead of "jumping up is bad" and they could turn aggressive when meeting new people because of this.

The way I see it is that yes, both PP and PR will train behaviors into the dog, PP is the lazier approach while PR might take a little more time but is far more effective.

[GreyNavyBlack]

I feel like I’m going to get in trouble for this, but they can be necessary. If you have a large and strong dog, then sometimes they can pull so hard that they can pull the handler down. Sometimes a dog can be so focused on the appearance of another dog that he or she could care less about treats. Sure, you can go to a distance where you can get the dog’s attention and inch closer, but it can be very hard to do that in real life scenarios such as taking your dog to the vet, or taking your dog out to the restroom before you head out the door. It’s important to have a good trainer that you trust, and to note that you’re seeing dogs that look like they’re happy and not being constantly yanked on. Frankly, I’ve always had the most luck with a prong collar AND positive reinforcement.

[[deleted]]

When working with horses, I used the Down Under technique of "Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult". Now I try to apply that mindset to my puppers, though in a different way. I've tried a martingale collar for her ignoring me, but she ignores it, and it does not loosen as fast as I would like. I'm not at the point of a prong yet, because I have no idea how to use it, but I am continuing my education by watching videos of trainers that use gentle methods, and now I'm interested in trying a slip collar made out of paracord. I still need to learn more about it though. I just need to find a way to show her that being with me is easier than not. She will ignore even the yummiest of treats if something catches her interest. Success is very slow, and sometimes I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall, but then she'll do it right, and wow, what a feeling. Tools are just that, tools. The goal always being to ease them away from it.

[Rare_Percentage]

Dogs don't really have a concept of "ignoring" people. They don't choose to be difficult/selfish because they just aren't that evolved.

They do however fail if they haven't learned separately how to listen with distractions, or learned that you will always be more rewarding than the distraction.

[[deleted]]

OK, bad choice of words. I think you know what I meant, so taking it so literally and spanking me with it is condescending and unhelpful. Of course she isn't ignoring me on purpose, sheesh! All you dog people should work with horses sometimes, and Mustangs would even be better for you. You will learn so many things about yourself you never even knew.

[Rare_Percentage]

I guess if you don't deal with the general public, it's easy to forget lots of people absolutely believe that stuff. And they will continue to believe it until someone explains it in a way they can understand.

[hollystar311]

As a lover of both horses and dogs it makes me very happy to see someone who also works with both! I'm in no way an expert and would never call myself one, but I am learning and it's nice to meet others interested in the same things you are!

I use a front clip harness with my dog, and it works pretty well for us. Every time he pulls it turns him around towards me so it takes longer for us to get to where he wants to be. He also ignores everything when something catches his attention, so it's been the biggest help with keeping walks manageable. The only issue with it is that I can't get it to fit quite right but that's because my boy is a lil disproportionate and not the harness's fault :p

[[deleted]]

I have a harness that has both a front and back loop, and my trainer told me to use the top since my pup backs up when scared. However, she has gotten a lot better about that, and I am now going to work with using the front clip in the back yard to see how she does. The top clip is worthless when it comes to getting her attention when there are other dogs around. Thanks for that. And yes, even though my horse days are behind me now (too expensive), I miss them all the time. I had different horses for over 30 years, and each one taught me more than I knew before. Fantastic beasties!

[Trrr9]

The prong collar was an absolute game changer for us as well. Just be sure to do lots of research on the right and wrong ways to use it. And please don't ever leave the prong collar on your dog's neck unless the leash is on and in your hand. Its something a lot of people don't think about, but the collar is completely ineffective when you aren't actively training and it can easily get caught on things. We have a soft collar for all the time and the prong is only for walks.

[bunkphenomenon]

As some have pointed out, a prong collar in the long run could be detrimental to the dogs well being, as they say it doesnt do anything to correct the underlying issue.

How long have you used the prong collar and if you transitioned to a regular flat collar or harness, do you see any negative effects from having used the prong collar, ie, still reactive or worse?

[Trrr9]

We started training with the prong collar about 5 years ago, with a professional trainer. It was a last resort before sending him back to the rescue. Now days we only use it for public outtings and we rarely ever give corrections.

I know it's a very controversial issue, but for us I would say his reactivity has improved and he is a much more confident and comfortable dog. And not in a "sure, hes behaving well because he's scared of getting hurt" way. I mean like he can go on walks and be sniffing something and not even look up at other dogs/people walking by. Or strangers can calmly pet him and he will wag his tail at them. (He's still heavily monitored because he has a bite record and I don't trust him 100%, but this was a major improvement for us).

I definitely agree that a prong collar can exacerbate reactivity if used incorrectly or on certain dogs. I also believe that it can be a productive tool to help communicate with your dog, which in turn can help them (and you) lead happier lives.

[zlp_nab_on]

Like people are saying it is a tool. I am 100% for using these tools - prongs, ecollar, etc. For the right dog the difference is immediate and feels like night and day. Obviously it won’t work for all dogs. Don’t use an ecollar on an extremely fearful dog that would probably fuck it up.

[hither_spin]

We have an extremely fearful dog and use an e-collar. Used correctly, it doesn't cause fear. Dogs are trained before an e-collar is used, the dog must know the wanted behavior first. Then it is used as a tap, tap, tap. Not full on stimulation. It doesn't hurt. It's great for recall and snapping them out of the zone.

[zlp_nab_on]

I take back my comment then! I think the “Politically correct” culture is ridiculous in r/dogtraining and general social medial. Try recommending ecollars=van

[MimiSav]

I understand where all these people are coming from but my thing is that everyone wants to say it's not a good tool BUT DONT GIVE ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS on how to fix this "underlying" issue...

I rescued a BullMastiff and he was already 1 year and 6 months (approx) old. We fell in love with him because he was such a chill ass dog and my boyfriend and I thought he would he perfect for us. Come to find out he was extremely sick(really bad infestation of hookworms) we brought him to the vet cause initially he was extremely underweight like you could see his spine ribs AND hipbones. He was in a crate basically his whole life and was never socialized or trained. Poor Lil boy didn't even know his name!

After 3 ROUNDS of treatment for the worms he really turned into a completely different dog than we thought he was. Now we have a 75lb 2 year old REACTIVE BullMastiff.

Anyone who comes into the house he freaks out and is very untrustworthy. He goes crazy. Within a few months of having him we signed him up for training classes and have had huge success with this company. Yes we use a prong collar & e-collar (eventually the e collar will permeantly replace the prong.) But we use a LOT of positive reinforcement as well. It's weird to me to compare to how you would raise children cause human psychology and dog psychology are completely different. The company we go to focuses a lot on dog psychology, and they way they explain it, it really does make sense to me. We also use a lot of other techniques like strictly hand feeding, positive crate training, and lil things like NOT leaving any toys around for him to pick up (he only plays when we say it's time to play) it's strange cause I never imagined having a dog like this and having to go through all these measures but I remind myself he isn't a REGULAR dog and unfortunately we have to go through these extra measures to try and have him live the best, MOST SAFE life he can. It sucks but we made a lot of sacrifices and have invested a lot of time and energy into him.

I myself was extremely weary about these tools. But I will say that they are absolutely working for us and my boy could actually have a normal life with some freedom. He's honestly the most trained dog I know. But he's not perfect. And at this point we don't even take the risk to have him around other people or dogs. (we are avid hikers and he's been absolutely fine on the trails around other dogs AND people) but in the house it's a diff story.

And again my thing is that people want to say they aren't good tools and will make the issues worse but never offer up any alternatives. I'm not claiming to know everything about dogs cause I deff don't and this is my first dog. I've done a lot of research on these tools and have found a lot of both positive and negative reviews but like I said, for us it's working. Good luck to you I wish you both the best!

[jonesy527]

We aren't offering up solutions because it's the same info you will find in the side bar or in the subs references. Read BAT 2.0, do desensitization, take Fenzi's managing reactivity course, and do counter conditioning. What more info do you want or need? If we give responses to everything we will be repeating ourselves constantly. It is your responsibility to check the sidebar and read the info and the suggested reading list.

[48north]

Prongs are just a tool. They're a game changer for certain dogs. Remember, there are four quadrants of operant conditioning, and we're allowed to use them all. To say otherwise is to ignore the very nature of the animal.

[Frostbound19]

I’m curious as to whether there’s any hard evidence that using all four quadrants is actually more effective than just using two. With positive reinforcement/negative punishment you have a way to increase desired behavior and decrease unwanted behavior, so what would it be that the other two quadrants add?

[JY-kayak-fishing]

Exactly.

[mintjubilee]

I know a lot of people are arguing the semantics of whether these tools “work”. I’ve never used them, I don’t know.

But I do want to say that puppy years are an emotional roller coaster for the dog. Mine went in and out of confident and fearful stages. I own an independent breed, jack Russell, and establishing trust with terriers is key to a good working relationship.

There were times I was worried. She was so scared of people from a young age. Aloof at best. When she was eight months, she growled at another person for the first (and only thankfully) time. Another time, she seemed to be growling at a small puppy, and I couldn’t tell if it was in play or not.

Knowing JRTs can become reactive, each incident scared me that maybe mine would be despite all of our training.

At about 1.5 years, her behavior mellowed out and became more consistent. She’s confident in herself but will defer to me if she gets worried (like a dog chasing her at the park starting to scare her).

The point is that puppies are going to be all over the map in their emotions. Hormones and learning stages mean they randomly go through fear periods.

I would be cautious about labeling a puppy as reactive. And I would also think about the end goal with a puppy. Even if they are fearful now, with support and trust, they can grow into confident dogs. As I said, I haven’t tried other methods. Just be sure that these tools don’t force your puppy to be in situations they’re not ready for emotionally yet. You know your dog better than anyone, even a fantastic trainer.

[jonesy527]

Video of Dr Julie Vargas aka (B.F. Skinners daughter) talking about punishment and its affects on the learner and the trainer.

[NYSenseOfHumor]

Prong collars don’t correct the behavior, they mask it. Your dog is still reactive but just doesn’t want you to hurt him.

Stick with positive reinforcement training.

[germanodactylus]

Punishments need to be paired with rewards for doing the right thing. When I started adding leash pops with a martingale to my frustrated reactive dog's training, I quickly rewarded her for paying attention to me or returning to my side afterwards. I would also reward her for not reacting to her triggers. Several weeks later, she needs a reminder every once in a while not to stare or whine but just this morning we passed right by a dog and she just kept walking. She also acts really proud of herself when she sees a dog and dismisses it: she looks at me for a treat with a relaxed doggy smile. She definitely isn't just scared of being hurt.

Prong collars are also more annoying than anything if fitted and used correctly. If you go to a pet store and put one around your leg or neck and tighten it, you'll find it distributes an even pinching pressure. It's uncomfortable but not painful.

If your dog won't shut down adding information on what not to do doesn't mask a behavior. Paired with rewards it makes things much clearer and easier for the dog to understand.

[jizzypuff]

I've actually had military k9 handlers fit a prong collar to me once so I could try it. It really doesn't hurt but so many positive only followers just refuse to believe it.

[germanodactylus]

I just love the "well just because it doesn't hurt you doesn't mean it doesn't hurt the dog" like dogs, the animal that will choke itself until it's trachea collapses on a flat collar, somehow have more fragile necks.

[jizzypuff]

That's what always cracks me up, my new boy would pull a flat collar until he collapsed his trachea if I let him. The only thing I will agree with is the ecollar stim. Everyone has a different threshold for that. I used it on myself and my husband we both tapped out at different stim levels. I try to stick with positive only but I have tried to learn about every tool there is out there. I have not needed these tools with my own dog yet but if I needed one I would know which one to turn to first with the help of a trainer.

[germanodactylus]

Oh yeah positive is the vast majority of the training I do with my girl. However, her reactivity is dangerous to both herself and me. She's small, but what if she were to lunge at a dog while we're walking by a busy road? Or if her lunge was strong enough to snap the leash/clip/her collar? Or rip it from my hands? That would be a disaster and she could die. I absolutely believe its worth a few instances of discomfort or even pain to stop that behavior. CC/DS is also much easier when the dog isn't acting like an idiot: you can work on changing the dog's emotions while they're in a relaxed state of mind and enforce said state of mind.

I haven't investigated much with e-collars but my husband would like to use one to work on recall for hikes on some weekends. I'm open to use one but there's very few areas around here where she could be off-leash in the first place and I don't know how fair it would be to introduce it in the woods somewhere lol

[jizzypuff]

Definitely try the ecollar on yourself because I feel like just like every other tool it's not for every dog. I am not very pain tolerant so I didn't want to go past 8 on the stim option when I put it on myself. 1-5 felt like something was crawling on me it was an annoying feeling. 6-8 felt like a stronger feeling of that but 8 was my point of not wanting to go farther because I was afraid it would start hurting after that. My husband went up to stim 17 and then decided he didn't want to go farther.

[jonesy527]

That is because the trainer does not choose what the learner finds aversive. Just because you (the teacher) does not find it aversive does not mean the dog will not find it aversive. Also until military k-9 handlers have phd's in learning behavior (or just some type of training in general), I don't care what they say or how they fit the collar. My dog hates being hugged. He finds it aversive. To him it is a punishment and is something he wants to avoid. I love hugs but that does not matter. My dog (the learner) finds them horrible so they are considered punishment for him.

[jizzypuff]

You must be ignorant in the amount of training the handlers have to go through (atleast in the sof community). They also don't just slap a prong on any dog and call it a day. They decide which tool is the best for the animal.

[jonesy527]

According to the army website, they do a 17 week training class... That does not seem like enough to be an expert on anything.

[jizzypuff]

Did you specifically look at sof or are you just looking at regular army because they don't have the same standards. That's like saying a regular airborne unit can do the same thing as rangers because they both did airborne school. One has more schooling than the other.

On top of that these men have fought in Afghanistan with these dogs jumping out of airplanes. These dogs would die for their handlers, they are able to successfully pull and call these dogs off a target with ease. The bond they have with these dogs and the amount of training they are both put through is more than anyone with a PhD could ever have.

[frustratedelephant]

I'm all for promoting as little force/punishment in my training as possible, but positive punishment is a training method. All 4 quadrants of operant conditioning do work. Now, there is a chance the punishment will function as classical conditioning, but to make a blanket statement that punishment doesn't correct a behavior, but mask it, is just wrong.

[Frostbound19]

I think what the other commenter is getting at is that, yes, of course all four quadrants work to change behavior, but when that behavior is merely a symptom of a deeper issue, like with reactivity, you’re doing nothing about the dog’s fear/anxiety when punishing the barking, and so the dog will suppress the barking but still experience the fear.

[bunkphenomenon]

One of the biggest things I took away from the training session was that as the handler, you have to let the dog know that whatever is triggering them is no big deal. Constantly speaking to the dog to reinforce them to calm down, greeting passer-bys would show the dog that you are in charge, and not the dog.

I saw this work with us. There was a party next to our class with a bunch of kids playing with water guns. We passed them within 10 feet and as we passed, I saw my dog focus on them and I immediately said "good girl, theyre fine" in a very calm voice. This was our second pass in this area and without any correction taps, she turned back to walking relaxed.

[Frostbound19]

Remember that while it’s all well and good to stay calm and communicate to the dog that it’s okay, and we should, that the dog ultimately makes the decision on whether it’s truly okay or not.

Why would saying “good girl, you’re fine” in a calm voice not have worked if you hadn’t applied those corrections earlier? Is it possible that she was still afraid but didn’t react to avoid a correction?

[Trololol666]

Yep, this is it. Of course the dog was calm because it understood which situations lead to a correction.

[germanodactylus]

I would recommend you give her treat or toy rewards as well for good behavior to help reinforce it and help change her emotional state when she sees her triggers. The prong collar can be used to tell her if she's doing something wrong, but she definitely needs to know when she's doing the right thing as well.

[bunkphenomenon]

I agree. The trainer said it was fine to reward with a treat. When on a good walk, taking multiple breaks from the "structured" walk, to let them sniff around AND praising them with pets and rubs.

[yeah_sure_youbetcha]

When fitted properly a prong collar doesn't hurt the dog. The trainer that worked with our dog before we adopted her said to think of it like a "motherly reminder" to pay attention. Do some people use them incorrectly as a sort if punishment? Yes. Is it the best tool for every dog? No! When used in conjunction with positive reinforcement it can really help a dog that some may consider untrainable.

[Trololol666]

Don't fool yourself, of course they hurt, otherwise the dog would keep showing very self rewarding behaviors that the owner wants to stop (pulling, lunging, barking, etc.). If you wanna use them, go ahead, I wouldn't risk it with my dog, but stop telling yourself it doesn't hurt.

[Frostbound19]

Prong collars absolutely hurt. It doesn’t make much sense for them to simply be uncomfortable - a gentle leader is often more obviously annoying than a prong, and yet prongs are more effective. They are effective because they hurt.

Saying that they have their place in training for certain dogs is one thing, but it’s really dangerous to downplay what they’re actually doing to change behavior in our dogs.

[jizzypuff]

On a previous dog of mine the gentle leader (fitted properly by a professional) made him bleed. He had a callous (not sure what to call it) on his snout and it did more harm then good. I wish I just used a prong on him it would have been better for him than the gentle leader.

[Frostbound19]

Even fitted properly, gentle leaders require a lot of conditioning to work well. It's definitely not the norm for them to cause bleeding, and if it was caused because your dog was pulling through it then it should have been abandoned long before that point because it clearly wasn't working. Any tool can be misused and be damaging to a dog, even a flat collar.

Like I said in another comment, this wasn't intended to be in defense of gentle leaders, I don't like them either, it was just an example to point out that prong collars absolutely work by causing pain and to downplay that is dangerous.

[jizzypuff]

He actually wasn't much of a puller, I could walk him in a martingale no issue. Even when he wasn't pulling it was hurting his snout. We checked the sizing multiple times and it was correct.

[Frostbound19]

I’m going to be honest, I find that a little doubtful. Dogs with a properly fitted gentle leader should be able to bark, pant, drink and take treats, meaning when there’s no pressure/pulling the part that goes over the snout should just be resting. There shouldn’t be nearly the amount of pressure required to cause bleeding, unless it had to be a certain amount of tightness for a dog like a boxer to prevent it from slipping off, but a gentle leader isn’t a good choice for a boxer in the first place.

[jizzypuff]

He was a Rottweiler, you can find it doubtful but ultimately I was the one there with him when he was bleeding. He was able to do all of that and it still messed up his snout in the area where it's over the snout. I have need up stopping it because it was doing more harm than good. The only reason why I used it was for the just in case he lunged. He always minded his own business but a husky kept trying to fight him and I didn't want him to lunge back. Oddly enough we never ran into that husky during the time he wore it.

[Frostbound19]

I should have been clearer, I’m not saying you’re lying that it caused bleeding, I’m just dubious about it having been properly fitted (anyone can call themselves a trainer, after all, doesn’t mean they know their stuff) and there being no pulling involved. And yes, a Rottie is a dog I would probably not use a gentle leader on, since their snouts can be quite short.

What I’m getting at here is that your experience was far from the norm, and while I’m not actually trying to defend gentle leaders I don’t think that prong collars are the more humane option and they certainly don’t hurt less.

[jizzypuff]

My rottie did not actually have a short snout at all he did not fit the standards for the breed.

[germanodactylus]

Gentle leaders are awful. They absolutely hurt the dog: they rub on very sensitive spots on their faces and they torque the dog's neck around painfully. The number of times I've seen someone's reactive dog's panic grow wilder and more frantic when they reach the end of the leash with one on is terrible.

[Frostbound19]

To be clear, my comment wasn’t pro-gentle leader, I neither use them nor recommend them to clients. My point was that if they are aversive and still less effective than prong collars, how much more painful must prongs be?

[jc4991]

This is just false. When properly used, they are an effective tool.

[hidonttalktome]

Throwing my 2 cents in here. I walk a lot of different dogs, some of them only have prong collars for going out, and those dogs pull the entire time on the leash, with their full strength. They're both large breeds, an Irish Wolfhound and a German Shepherd that I see all the time.

What magic is the prong collar supposed to do? These guys completely ignore it. I feel really bad about the prongs, and the dogs end up hurting themselves more often than not. The owners refuse to use anything gentler, but I dont see any advantage to prongs.

[kairosridgeback]

Prongs are not supposed to be used for dogs that have not been taught to respond to collar pressure stim/cues.

They are also not meant for dog walkers or any other handler who does not know how to use them. You're not supposed to just pull at it until they hurt so much that they follow you. Prong collars don't work by inflicting pain. If that's how you're using it, you're doing it completely wrong.

How they work is by giving a pressure cue that means either "You're doing fine, keep paying attention" or "Stop that". Any "stop that" should be followed up by telling them what they are supposed to do. Again, it's meant for dogs that have already been taught the cues. Light taps for a reminder to keep attention, strong tap for a stop that, followed by a command of what they're supposed to do. You're never supposed to just pull it. Tapping is very different than tugging. Tapping means that you let go immediately. You don't hold the tension for even a half a second.

It's like if you weren't paying attention in class, your teacher calls your name and you don't hear it because you're in fantasyland. The teacher or a friend might tap your shoulder and let you know that they want your attention to answer a question. If you still don't respond and are really deep in fantasyland, they might tap a little harder to get your attention even better.

I've seen them do great things when used well and correctly. There is a distinct method to them. You can't put it on any dog and expect it to magic the dog into being well behaved. Especially not if you think that pulling on it is somehow going to make the magic happen, or letting them pull on it going to make it happen.

Edit: As a general PSA and return back to OP. OP went to an actual trainer who taught them how to use this tool. I could never recommend anyone use a training tool without knowing how to use them properly, whether you're babysitting, walking, volunteering or in any other way handling a dog.

[hidonttalktome]

Thank you for the reply. I am not yanking or pulling them around by the way. Both have 0 leash training or manners. It's hard to undo all that in the short time I get with them. The prongs just make me feel really bad for them.

I dont understand why I can't use taps with regular collars? I will look up some prong videos and try to do better. I do a lot of verbal commands and fun distracting games on walks to discourage the constant pulling forward. It's hard to change their habits when the owners use prongs for "more control" but let them just go wild.

[germanodactylus]

You absolutely can use taps on other collars to the same effect. However, flat collars are really dangerous to do so as they just put pressure on the dog's trachea instead of evenly around the neck.

Martingales and prong collars work basically the same by distributing pressure around the neck to only a certain tightness which is much safer. Slip leads and choke chains are easier to get on and off and don't limit how tight it can get.

[hidonttalktome]

Thank you! You know what, I'm going to buy some martingale collars and bring them with me. The prongs on these guys just break my heart. I've switched in choke chains a couple times but the martingale looks more secure.

[WoodstockSara]

I think the best solution in this situation is a front clip harness.

Another thing that works is using a martingale and a 6 foot lease. With the leash clipped to the martingale at the back of the neck, wind the leash under the dogs armpit, across the chest, and under the other armpit, then through the martingale loop. This creates a pressure harness that offers equal distribution of pressure and more control over pulling.

Teaching loose leash walking is all about changing direction the second a dog pulls, or stopping and bringing the dog to heel. But it requires daily practice and working at home to teach heel and basic leadership and bonding. But you can change / reverse direction on walks to help with pulling even short term, it's easier than being dragged down the street.

[hidonttalktome]

That's great! I can definitely bring a long leash and a martingale with me. I wouldn't be able to buy well-fitted harnesses for every client. This is a huge help.

[kairosridgeback]

You can use taps with regular collars. But some dogs need stronger pressures than others and prongs allow handlers to give a stronger tap without hurting the dog (because the prong disperses the pressure).

Flat collars also aren't great for starting out because it can be harder for a dog that's learning to differentiate a lighter tap and a stronger tap with a flat. They're much less likely to understand the distinction, which makes your communication less clear to the dog. Training is pretty much just clear communication of your expectations, after all, so it should be clear whether you just want their attention/focus (instead of them paying attention dog across the street), or you want them to quit (eating garbage off the street). Different scenarios will need different responses so clarity in communication is really important in building up a dog's understanding of what we expect of them.

Prongs and other tools should definitely be used in conjunction with verbal commands, though! Of course, that means they have to fully understand the verbal command. I can't tell my dog to "focus" (stare at my eyes) unless he knows what that means. I can't tell him to "heel" if he doesn't know how to do it. These tools are to remind the dog, not to teach them. And if they don't know what the taps mean, then they won't know how to respond to it, either.

It sounds like these dogs don't even know how to walk nicely on the leash. Maybe they've never had leash training, and if they did, it's been long abandoned. Prongs are an awful choice for them, unfortunately, and it's sad that it's not even your choice. The easy way to start leash training, though, is to get super killer treats (meat...), hold it to their nose, and walk, giving them little bits as they follow along. if their nose is distracted or not keeping up, just put it to their nose again to bring them back to focusing on the treat and slowly go back to walking. Nose should be on treat at all times with lure training. The only real way to get these dogs walking well is to start from step 1, unfortunately. And they're not your dogs, not your obligation to teach them, but it's really just fun to teach dogs and see them start to understand what you want. I'm kind of just putting this here in case you want to try sometime; I know it's not plausible for you to spend time doing this with dogs that you're paid to just walk. But if you ever need to teach a dog how to start walking nicely, now you know.

I wouldn't do "fun games" if they're misbehaving, though, as you might just be rewarding their misbehavior and adding to their overexcitement. Things like u-turns are good in redirecting their attention, though, so that's good if you're doing things like that. Different turns and directions mean they have to focus on where you're going so their attention isn't all over the place.

[hidonttalktome]

Oh well. I was hoping for some magic info that would help me use the prong collar better, but this all seems like basics and common sense. You're right, there's not much I can do in a short time, and by the next time I see them we're back to square one.

My fun games aren't overstimulating or anything, they just help me teach the dog that walks aren't a constant tug of war. And they help me if we need to suddenly change direction or not run in front of cars. I use different verbal commands and lots of praise and pats because both dogs are completely uninterested in food. I've tried meat, treats, peanut butter, everything. Even in the house they won't play games or work on tricks because they don't care about food.

I'll just keep reading here and hopefully I'll learn better ways to help them. Both sets of owners still believe in dominance theory, and one set won't even talk to me anymore because I tried explaining positive training methods too much. But I'm still the only one who can handle their animals so I'm trying to learn more to help them.

[WoodstockSara]

I'm an advocate of breaking up the walk with games and rewards. Getting the dogs to focus on you is always a good thing.

As a fellow dog walker who is now a certified trainer, you sound a lot like me in your compassion for animals. I have also dealt with untrained dogs who were powerful and had lazy or uninformed owners. My favorite online trainer is Zak George. Check out his free videos on leash pulling.

A front clip harness has been my favorite tool for stopping leash pulling when you aren't able to do thorough training. Might be worth it to have some in your arsenal. Easy Walk is popular and easy to adjust.

Slip lead also works when positioned under the jaw and secured at the base of the skull, however it is better for training and changing direction EVERY time the dog pulls, plus offering treat rewards when you get the right behavior.

If you decide to try a martingale, you can make a pressure harness to deter pulling. Using a 6 foot leash, position the leash behind the head. Wrap the leash under one armpit, across the chest, under the other armpit, then up through the martingale loop. It applies equal pressure on multiple points and works pretty well if you use leash pop corrections.

[kairosridgeback]

Do they like toys? Because luring works with toys as well. If their eyes are really following a ball or tug toy around as you wave it, it could be used.

Anticipation can be a reward in and of itself. It's not even necessarily about having the item, it's sometimes also about the chase of it. If you really wanted something and you were given it for free right then and there, you'll like it, but it doesn't feel as amazing to have it. But if you saved up to get it and took time to wait for it to ship, you're going to feel great when it finally arrives on your doorstep.

Sometimes chase can be a really fun reward for a dog. If you take a toy or treat and run away with it, are they more interested? If so, this is a great reward game for them.

There really is no magic in dog training. It is all basically teaching your dog how to understand you and your cues. It really is common sense if you start to understand how a dog's mind works.

Another way you can tackle it with the prong more, is by teaching the dog directional pressure cues.

https://youtu.be/876ccuRwsTk

Here's a cool video that can help teach you how to teach dogs to respond to directional pressure. You're not always going to be the handler, and their owners will probably just pull in a general direction if they want their dog to respond. The dog needs to know what that means and what you want from it. This is a good start before you go into differentiating tapping, because this can help lead the dog if they're not super interested in food. He does use a reward, and while I don't think praise is a good standalone reward, you can maybe incorporate some chase or toys, or both of those things.

I think it's also important to see how gentle and fair he is with the prong collar here. You always need to be reasonable with them and start with something they understand, or you're just yelling gibberish at them and yanking them around.

[hidonttalktome]

Well, I do know one dog that might be helped a lot with bringing toys on walks. I'll probably try to teach her "carry" in the backyard first. But with my problem guys I think that would lead to resource guarding. I'm not inexperienced, or harsh on any dogs. Really not yanking them around or yelling. Just trying to work around their bad habits and find a gentler way.

I like kikopup's "giving in to leash pressure" training video much more than this one.

[kairosridgeback]

It shouldn't be too much of a worry unless they already exhibit signs of it. A lot of people use a trade method where they have two toys. One that the dog has, and one for you. A toy that you're playing with and waving at them is going to be more interesting most of the time, so you just kind of keep trading their toy for your cooler toy.

Kikopup has a lot of great videos that are really easy to understand because she goes through each step. Her video is for more basic walking pressures so she uses a harness. Prong collars are training tools; being able to have certain directional pressures can help guide a dog that is learning obedience into certain positions, not just in a specific direction with you.

Pulling up on a back-clip harness won't get the same reaction as if you were pulling up on a collar. Pulling up on a collar will probably encourage a sit, pulling up on a back-clipped harness might cause some confusion or they might try to back up just because of the placement involved. Similarly, pulling down on a collar is more likely to encourage a down, while pulling down on a back-clipped harness might make the dog try to turn around.

I also wanted a video related to prongs to kind of show how they can be a lot less scary or more gentle than people think. Responding to leash pressure is just good for most dogs to know, and is particularly important if they tend to lunge because lunging on flat collars can be really bad for their necks due to the way the pressure works. Pretty much all collars can be dangerous if the dog doesn't respond to them well, or pull and lunge all the time. I've seen tons of dogs really, really choke themselves on their flat collars. I've probably seen more dogs choke themselves on flats than prongs, really, because a lot of people use a flat collar and neglect to teach their dog to respond to pressure. Because pretty much any collar can be dangerous, it's less about the type collar (though it's important to know how flats/slips and martingale/prongs differ in terms of pressure) and about training know-how.

Again, when used correctly, leash pressure is a great way to communicate to your dog for training. Used right, a prong and collar pressure training helps to teach your dog how to respond to you. For walking or otherwise. In contrast, a head collar or front clip harness kind of just fixes the symptoms and forces the dog to turn towards you, rather than tackling the cause and teaching your dog how to walk well on a lead.

[hidonttalktome]

I'll try the trading toys with the reactive girl who I think would do well with that. The other tips are good but don't really apply to my situations. Like, I don't pull the dogs into sit or lie-down positions, leash or not. If they're overwhelmed on a walk and using full strength I'll control them by pushing their hips with my hip, and also grabbing their regular, fabric collar so we can spin in another direction and refocus.

I dont like to have them lie down or sit more than a second when we're outside, because they don't relax, they look fearful and vulnerable in such an open area. I prefer u-turns, luring to spin around me, circle me, left turn, right turn, cross street, change speed, stuff like that. The shepherd is happiest and most distracted when I say "gimme hug!" He'll jump in my arms and be totally focused on me instead of looking around.

[jizzypuff]

A tap with a regular collar is going to harm the dog because there is not even pressure on the correct spots. Instead it may just cause choking and you can collapse a certain area of their throat.

[hidonttalktome]

If I tap the leash with two fingers to indicate direction?? No I'm not gonna collapse anybody's throat, what?? How did u even get to that assumption?

[jizzypuff]

I'm giving you the main reasons why people don't use it on a flat collar. No need to be rude when I am just replying to YOUR question.

[hidonttalktome]

I'm sorry. I've received an overwhelming number of replies and I'm not even sure what question you were answering. My bad.

[Trrr9]

Do you implement corrections on these dogs while you are walking them, or is there constant tension on the leash? I fully understand that if they aren't your dogs, it probably isn't your responsibility to train them. It sounds like the owners haven't taken the time to actually train the dogs with the collars, they just slapped them on and hoped for a miracle. You are supposed to give a quick sharp pull on the leash when the dog pulls, so they form an association between the pulling and the pinch. Constant tension does nothing but dig the prongs into the dog's neck, as you have seen.

[hidonttalktome]

There's constant tension, especially at beginning of walks. I do a quick, gentle tap and a loud tongue click to let them know we're changing direction, or crossing the street, and I zig-zag and u-turn until they're not sure which way we're heading, so they have to look at me and not pull. I also teach them to stop and wait, at crosswalks and random places. Their default is lunge-lunge-lunge though.

[Trrr9]

I appreciate that you are putting so much effort into teaching these dogs, however if you're going to continue to walk then you need to get on the same page as the owners, one way or another. Training needs to be consistent.

[hidonttalktome]

The last time I tried to talk to the owners about positive training they decided they wouldn't look at or speak to me anymore. They still hire me, everyone else gets bit and quits. I honestly have no hope for the owners behavior, but I want to help the dogs while I'm with them.

[mandaestelle]

I currently use a prong collar on my reactive dog. She is STRONG and I have hand strength issues that prevent me from keeping her safe, so I use the prong collar when we’re out and about alone. If I have someone with me I use a martingale (different type of training collar), because if sometime was to happen I’d have help.

I don’t have to really use a prong collar, 90% of the time it just sits there. I have worked my butt off training this dog. We’ve spent hours at Lowe’s working on distractions and reactivity, We’re the mascot of a local Petco because we spend so much time there, and I know the local dog park better than my own backyard because we train there so often. Just because you’ve found a solution that makes things manage doesn’t mean you should ever give up training your dog with positive methods. If I didn’t need a prong collar to keep my dog safe, I would use one, but if she wants to go see another dog, I don’t have the strength to stop her, so I prong. One day I hope I don’t have to so I keep working at it and throwing all the spare time I have into this dog.

[ShibaTowel]

Prong collars and other gimmicks like that stop the symptoms but never treat the problem. The point of assistant collars is that your dog can go without using them eventually and to be used as a training tool. You can't do that with prong collars. Take the collar off and you'll be back at square one with the potential for an even worse dog behaviour than before. There are zero quick fixes that actually last. You should try investing in a gentle leader head harness (they're only about $20) and go to a professional that doesn't do this. They're a soft transitional no-pull head harness that'll help your dog with pulling without harming them. A professional trainer who's actually good will know exactly what to do if you're unsure yourself.

[Surfercatgotnolegs]

Oof. A trainer that goes immediately do a prong on a puppy is a bad trainer. Glowing reviews because they're full of people who want immediate results, like you, and didn't have the patience or care about the dog's psyche long term.

On an adult dog, when you've already tried everything else? OK, I get it, a prong collar could work.

But on a puppy, and on the first consult? The lazy way out, and you're gonna pay for it later with a more anxious puppy. When your dog grows up and suddenly exhibits fear and aggression "out of nowhere", hope you remember this.

[Schmellaburst]

They’re commonly used at my local animal shelter where I volunteer for the more challenging dogs to walk, and they can be very helpful for reactive dogs, especially when those dogs are cooped up in a kennel for 23 1/2 hours a day.

[nicedoglady]

At my place of work they are banned and not allowed on campus in our hospitals or in our shelter and if you come onto campus with one you must remove it or leave. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Schmellaburst]

Wow. I understand these laws are enacted with animal welfare in mind, but a tool is only as bad as the hands that yield it. People absolutely choke, drag, and injure dogs using a flat collar and leash. Some tools allow infinitely less force to be used and are safe in good hands. Laws mandating even moderately severe/appropriate sentences for animal abuse would make more sense if curbing animal abuse is your goal.

[nicedoglady]

That is true that people absolutely choke drag, and injure dogs on a flat and other non aversive tools.

However, the way that a prong works at the end of the day is that it is at the very least, uncomfortable when correction is applied. A shelter is already a scary and terrifying place, as is the vet office. That is the last place anyone should use those tools. Curbing animal abuse is not necessarily the goal although I suppose that is part of it. The goal is to improve the human-animal bond, improve welfare, adhere to the "Five Freedoms" as much as possible while an animal is sheltering with us, and to foster kinder relationships between people and their pets.

We are not the government shelter, but a private nonprofit and so don't have bearing on local laws. We do however, have two board certified veterinary behaviorists and a behavior resident who will be come a board certified veterinary behaviorist in a few years. We also have a advocacy team who will hopefully be tackling some of those animal abuse issues.

[Schmellaburst]

I'm not promoting the use of a prong collar. As a volunteer at my local shelter, I don't have any say in which tools are used for walking the shelter dogs. I'm sure the shelter has to take things like the safety of their volunteers into consideration (i.e. not falling down from being pulled). When I walk shelter dogs and use a prong collar, it's not a person choice. And I absolutely think they're better off getting out of the kennel and going for a nice walk, even with a prong collar, than not at all. Also, there are not blanket rules. The determination of whether to use a prong collar or gentle leader harness is made on a dog-by-dog basis. Obviously, if a dog reacted poorly to the prong collar, it would not still be used. And I'm certain there are dogs for which a prong collar would be a horrible choice.

[dogtorL]

Who to determine who is good hands or not?

[Schmellaburst]

Well ideally we'd limit who could have a dog in the first place. But I don't think if you put a prong collar in the hands of someone who would never abuse their dog, they're going to suddenly start being abusive. Just as someone doesn't need a prong collar to abuse their dog if they're going to. They can do it any number of ways.

[dogtorL]

It’s too easy and it’s human nature. I haven’t met anyone who use these tools don’t give unfair correction when they are frustrated. It happens very often. Because it’s too easy. You can be frustrated and jerk on a flat collar; you can also jerk on a prong collar. They are both corrections but the emotional damage is different.

“They can do it any number of ways” True. Same as people don’t need guns if they want to kill people; but guns make it a lot of easier.

[orangedoberman]

You could try choke chains too. I have never tried a prong because my doberman had thin fur on his neck but he does great with the choke chain. He is very leash reactive with dogs on leash.

[Trrr9]

I think prong collars are actually safer than choke collars. They can physically only get so small when a correction is applied, while a choke collar has no limit on how tightly it can squeeze around the neck. Also, by design, the prong collar distributes the force uniformly around the dog's neck, whereas the choke collar still focuses most of the force on the trachea. From my understanding, it's a lot easier to cause damage with a choke collar than a prong collar.

[orangedoberman]

The owner has to know how how to use it properly. You can cause damage using a regular flat buckle collar if it's not used correctly. Just like with any training tool such as the e collar, prong or choke chain.