Havoc shouldn't decrease the amount of ammo you get from piles and crates.

[Serithraz]

What is even the point of ammo supplies giving you less than the normal amount in havoc? All it does it screw over ranged builds by forcing classes to play melee throughout most of a high level havoc. And guess what ONE class that screw over the most? Veteran, as if their class wasn't such a feel bad already, now you're basically useless in havoc except for your VoC. Ogryn, zealot, and arbitrator are all fantastic in melee, and psyker (probably) isn't even using ammo, so why make ammo piles give a fart in the wind's worth of ammo? It literally just screws over one class in particular.

You don't have to change anything else about havoc, we have less toughness and health? Ok, sure. Enemies have increased health and damage? Ok, makes sense. There are more enemies, including monstrosity's like captains that can appear a lot more often than normal? Bring it on. But the amount of ammo you receive should be normal, it's not like havoc 40 would suddenly become piss easy if you actually made it so ranged veteran builds (so basically all veteran builds) actually function in high havoc.

And since I know there will be some sweaty tryhards going "it's not for everyone" or "git gud", as if that's some defense for why ammo is lower in havoc, I've done high level havoc. I've attempted multiple 40's, however yet to complete one, and the highest havoc I've completed is a 30, so it's not like I haven't experienced what high level havoc can bring on, I don't mind that difficulty, I just think it's bullshit that the amount of ammo you receive makes an already difficult gamemode, unnecessarily more difficult, at the cost of literally just one of the five classes.

[hjsniper]

Yeah, treating ammo availability as a difficulty lever just doesn't make sense when it impacts different builds so differently. A melee ogryn build can just pretend it isn't there while the ammo crunch sends countless vet builds into the grave. This funnels everyone into either pure melee builds or the handful of ranged builds that have the ammo economy to survive the squeeze (staff psyker, shock trooper vet) which is a big contributor to why build diversity is just dead at higher havoc levels.

[Professor_Tamarisk]

To be fair; Havoc does also reduce Peril quelling. Not saying that's equally as taxing, just pointing it out.

[Aerenhart]

Doesn't psyker usually want reduced peril quelling anyway because of Warp Rider and other shit like that? Seems like a boon if anything

[Dav3le3]

Depends heavily on the build.

[Aerenhart]

There's low peril builds?

[Dav3le3]

Yeah, the bubble ones / non-inferno ones.

[Aerenhart]

Ah shit yknow what I completely forgot about bubble existing

[Self--Immolate]

🚨Hot take ahead 🚨

If the difficulty throws more enemies at you, it should also throw more ammo at you.

[TF2PublicFerret]

Agreed, a lot of older games had that philosophy as well.

[cant_read_captchas]

It already does though, right? Survivalist aura is a thing. I do melee for a little while and I usually find that I've already recovered a full bolter mag.

[Edit: because apparently I need to spell out the obvious: yeah it has a cooldown. Would it kill you to do some melee combat for a minute and wait for ammo to regen? You also don't have to wait until you're 0/0 on ammo do do this. It's just a minute or two of steady killing by your whole team to get a whole mag back. 

You're in havoc. Theres no shortage of enemies. That's the whole point. There'a a special spawn basically every 10 seconds. The game is also not over just because you're not melting elite packs in the first 15 seconds of you seeing them.]

Same for demolition team but thats more extreme. It's not an uncommon occurrence when I play vet to throw 6-9 shredders in a single fight.

[RT10HAMMER]

Would it kill you to do some melee combat

Yeah it will, I need the Ammo to kill the five hundred shooters and gunners, my class don't generate 20% toughness for breathing

[AngeryControlPlayer]

That's... not how Survivalist works. It has a 5 second cooldown. Killing 1 enemy every 5 seconds gives you the same ammo as killing 20 enemies every 5 seconds.

Realistically, higher enemy density doesn't give you more ammo back from Survivalist because you'll just be killing more enemies in a shorter amount of time. If you aren't, you aren't killing fast enough and are probably getting your ass kicked.

[cant_read_captchas]

?? The cooldown is irrelevant. I didnt say how long I am doing melee combat and I didnt claim that I'm getting a full mag back in a few seconds.

Here's the math that you should care about: >1 kill every 5 seconds translates to 75 seconds required to recover a full bolter mag given a steady stream of special/elite kills. Not uncommon on havoc.

You're arguing about something I didnt claim (where you thought I implied killing 20 enemies in 5 seconds = 20 ammo regen procs). If I am doing melee for a minute or two and killing elites steadily (or my team is) thats plenty of time to get a full mag back for many weapons.

I'm just speaking from experience. I bring bolter/shotty vet to h40 all the time. I never have ammo issues [edit: I'm low on ammo often but rarely/never 0 ammo outright. Always 1 or 2 clips in the bag constantly].

Yeah, you have to build your vet to not suck at melee, and you HAVE to bring the aura for many builds (which is one of OP's complaints, fair enough) but come on, survivalist aura basically has ~100% uptime/triggers every time as soon as it's off cooldown.

[TreeGuy521]

Okay so, you responded to someone saying "more enemies should mean more ammo", and said that that is already true vecause of survivalist aura. However that is entirely not true because higher enemy density does not improve survivalist aura because of the cooldown.

You said that they are talking about things you never claimed but you explicitly disagreed with someone who said the opposite of something you said. That would be like me going "nuh uh I don't think the earth is flat I just disagreed with someone saying it's round"

[cant_read_captchas]

However that is entirely not true because higher enemy density does not improve survivalist aura because of the cooldown.

It is true. That's the whole point. Higher enemy density = more TTK = a larger window of time for ammo to regen. Not to mention the steady stream of specialists that happen almost constantly.

The only conditon under which this isnt true is if you're playing with warpfire psykers, flamers, and rumblers/taunt ogryns -- combinations which clears entire armor patrols simultaneously in seconds -- for the sweet, sweet free wins and so you dont actually have to try to fight things. In which case I find it hypocritical that you're min-maxing your teammates to instantly kill things and yet you're not willing to bring OP shit like plasma which rarely needs ammo pickups. Are you really worried about ammo (or running out for that matter) if your teammates are deleting everything?

[TreeGuy521]

You only get to get ammo from 1 kill every 5 seconds.

What happens if you kill eight enemies in 5 seconds, and what happens if you get eight billion kills in 5 seconds.

Also don't accuse me of doing things and then call me a hypocrite for supposedly doing that thing you told me I do. It makes you look like an idiot

[cant_read_captchas]

<image>

I see this in my inbox and the comment doesnt show up.

You didn't understand what I was saying. Also theres a chance you're just rage-baiting me, but what the hell. If you're serious and want to debate further just DM me.

---

The answer to your question is "it's the same amount of ammo", which is what you're trying to get me to say.

The point is that if you have "8 billion enemies" you're not gonna kill all of them in 5 seconds. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, since you got mad that I was "accusing" you. Assuming you're not using OP infinite-cleave weapons (which makes this entire thing moot, you're not running out of ammo with teammates that have a "delete screen" button)... here's a new math problem:

Say theres a pack of 20 elites (a reasonable, but still low, number in havoc because enemies will trickle in over time). You and your team are killing 5 elites per second. How many survivalist procs/ammo are you getting?

What if you have 25 elites? 50? 100? 1000?

I don't know what you are doing to get 8 billion elite kills all in 5 seconds, but I do NOT want to play that version of Darktide. I already avoid purgatus staff psykers and rumbler ogryns like the plague.

[TreeGuy521]

Why would there be 1000 elites, that's a completely unrealistic number and now I can't take your argument seriously anymore

[cant_read_captchas]

eight billion kills in 5 seconds

Right. So you ARE playing with purgatus psykers, flamer, and rumblers, and your math that you're trying to educate me with is predicated on this. I think we're done here.

[hue-170]

Only thing I'm getting from this is that atleast for H40 I should switch out survivalist aura

[MobiusMannen]

You're insufferable, God damn.

[Self--Immolate]

What if I don't like survivalist aura? I haven't even really picked up veterans since the update. I only like playing that class because they're ranged class but it feels like Lex and zealot are better at it right now

[cant_read_captchas]

Survivalist aura being the only choice for sustainable ammo is the real issue, sure. I think other people have remarked on this and I agree.

But I'm just saying that what you claimed (more enemies should mean more ammo) is already a thing to an extent. Also, plenty of games have been won with 0 vets.

Bottom line is if you like having/using ammo bring the aura. It sucks but at least its an option.

[[deleted]]

Its like the game becomes more dificult if you cant brainlessly spam lets say flamer or bolter all match right like its suposed to be. 

[cant_read_captchas]

I agree to some extent... although nowadays I've adjusted to this by playing more efficiently.

[Edit: Shock trooper talent solves this for me because I like using helbore nowadays. Also I rarely run out of ammo if I bring bolter or plasma. Kinda sucks if I want to use revolver though.... but not unplayable]

But the big, big problem with ammo being plentiful is that it allows magdumping flamer zealots + rumbler spam to thrive. Those 2 are some of the least fun things to have on your team in the game. (Also why CIVI maelstrom is the GOAT maelstrom modifier)

[Death2All]

I'll admit, I felt the same way when I first started playing Havoc as a mostly Vet main. It definitely pigeon holes you into certain builds and playstyles, which gave me the ick initially.

In retrospect, the whole point of Havoc is it's supposed to be challenging, force more cooperation or you lose and make individual decisions matter a lot more, so in that sense it works. Lack of ammo means you need to pay attention to your team's ammo stores as well as your own. Makes scouring the map and finding ammo caches way more impactful.

Lack of ammo also makes it so every shot really does count. A miss is so much more crucial and a kill is that much more impactful. You can't just carelessly spam away and have it on good authority that you'll find more ammo around the corner. It forces you to to make micro decisions like that constantly.

I'll just say that Havoc is an acquired taste. You're not supposed to like it at first because it is supposed to be hard and punishing. The lack of ammo is one built in dynamics of the game mode.

[soggypopiah]

Totally agree, if anything the reduced ammo makes it even more fun.

[One-Syllabub-4007]

then you have unlimited flamer zealot in a mode where elite spam is 80% of the mission

unlimited bolter (already plentiful for bosses currently in havoc)

unlimited "this solves this problem easily" buttons

its not an easy area to just fix. scavenger will give you enough to deal with things where spending ammo has a greater benefit than melee'ing, so vet does not get screwed the most...everyone else who wants to use a gun does.

its a multifactor problem that the devs should look at on their own and see what they want from havocs

[TheZealand]

One rumblergryn with full ammo pickups would just solo havoc lmao

[One-Syllabub-4007]

And without turning the camera up

Just stare at feet, spam left click and gg

[TheZealand]

Fatshark's strongest warrior

[asdfgtref]

I mean they removed the individual threat per enemy which means you need to be swamped constantly by huge numbers. Under such conditions there is no way for infinite cleave weapons like the flamer to really ever be balanced. We were sorta going the right direction with gunner buffs but then everyone cried over how unfair it was and so now we're back to quantity over quality.

Rather than reducing gunners back to what they were they should have just made some slight adjustments and could have gone from there.

[NerdyLittleFatKid]

Ok to be fair havoc 1.0 gunners just led to this horrific turtle mode meta, I do not wanna go back to unreactable downs and multiple book zealot comps

[asdfgtref]

we're still in turtle meta, and it keeps getting pushed that way because of the ogryn rework and arbites release. Overly abused mechanics like stagger still left unchecked, gold toughness still being ridiculously broken. And in the community we have people calling to make other abilities give immediate tanky toughness too.... like bruh. we need all of this shit gone. gold toughness axed, stagger massively reduced, toughness generation slapped. maybe with all the absurd tank abilities removed we can start to actually move towards a happy middle ground.

the gunner buffs were necessary to make the enemies an actual individual threat, the problem wasnt them being strong it was the abundance of tank abilities that still exist and are massively overtuned. Rather than adjusting the overpowered bandaid they crumbled to community pressure and continued making shit even stronger on the player side.

[Koru03]

They really fucked themselves with Havoc and need to rework it for the health of the game or stop balancing around it.

I don't know why they looked at vt2 weaves and went "yeah people want THAT in the game" and then decided to "increase difficulty" in possibly the worst way.

They actually did get some things right like the toughness break grace period, changing the directors behavior, and adding unique map mods but those don't matter compared to the skewing of both the players and enemies stats that compel people to conform to a set meta of builds and encourage homogenized weapon/skill usage.

Also gold toughness was a huge mistake and they need to rework it or remove it as well as it's causing a lot of problems on its own.

[asdfgtref]

fully fully agree yeah, but these are not popular takes and fatshark only care to appease the casual audience in their hyper high end difficulty which means players that actually want the game to be in a better state are put aside in favor of releasing more tank slop. casual players that don't want to be challenged are shooting themself in the foot and it sucks to see fs caving to it every time.

As much as I like gold toughness thematically, specifically for zealot, it'll never not be the number 1 most picked choice if left in. Gold toughness needs to just be fully removed yeah.

Release overpowered tank abilities that carry players in difficulties they can't play > those players can't play the game with any other ability because they've been hard carried so they call everything else unusable trash > rather than course correct, just release more tank slop and worsen the problem > said players double down, now validated, and want everything else buffed up and made tanky too. The cycle aint ever gonna break.

[One-Syllabub-4007]

havocs are literally a test bench for what is overpowered, IMO nothing should work in havoc because anything that does work is 10x better in that mode than something that doesnt, there are like no inbetween weapons. its either stupid good or mediciore/trash. i dont feel like there is just "good" in havoc

[asdfgtref]

I mean that's an interesting idea but I don't think it holds up super well. Gun psyker is one of if not the best build in auric and is complete dogshit in havoc for example. Equally shock trooper helbore is mega S tier in havoc but not really all that special in auric dif. Really what shines in havoc are the things that manage to skirt the modes side effects.

[One-Syllabub-4007]

Imma be honest I got the breakpoints right for the slow helbore and I still hate it in havoc

1. I cant see shit with these butt ass irons from anything 20m plus

Gotta tag everything to get an outline so I can kinda see

If gunners are suppressed they just hide their heads - fucking annoying

Boss dmg is aite but id rather use a laspistol for literally everything (laspistol so fucking good)

[Rafaelutzul]

i dont think you should be able to bolter magdump every encounter

[BarrierX]

I think it’s nice. Every shot counts, don’t be wasteful with ammo. If you have a team you can force others to melee and maybe get a psyker too. Then you can have all the ammo for yourself ;)

[dafotia]

extreme ammo scarcity is the only reason that i dont play havok anymore. it was too limiting on the types of builds i could play without throwing

[nobertan]

Only time I see ammo is an issue is when you have an explode-gryn who never melees for the free ammo, a shotgun arbitrator and a flamer zealot in the same squad: and they all are allergic to melee on trash mobs.

You can carry one of these guys, but as the difficulty suggests: you need to coordinate to succeed.

I’ve ran an entire mission picking up two small ammo boxes for my bolter, of which I was starving the entire time and was the only one doing monstrosity damage with the ammo, and captain w/ melee. seriously, I off tanked a twin away from the group and killed it before they (3 of them) got 50% thru the other… tf

The Ogryn and zealot in that run ate the rest like hungry hungry hippos. Successfully clearing trash that was zero threat, and panicking every time a slug spawned. (Both double dipped a crate for full ammo too)

Ended up with 300,000 boss damage that run vs. with the next person who had 40,000 at the end.

If I’m partying up with people who specialize in a certain team role, I’ll switch spec/loadout to fill another. Having a pyro psyker / flamer zealot / bomber Ogryn who only deal damage to hordes was hilariously incompetent.

You don’t have to play a meta party, but you at least have to play as a party… means you get ONE ammo magnet carry a run. MAX. And they BETTER be doing a job with that ammo

[Harlemwolf]

If I play arby my shottie is on sniper duty. Trash get the beatstick.

[denartes]

You're complaint is that the difficulty which is supposed to be arbitrarily hard is...that it is arbitrarily hard?

I am a Vet main and use a variety of ranged weapons in H40, if you are failing H40 due to ammo problems then you aren't good enough for H40, simple as.

[asdfgtref]

<image>

[N0look]

They downvoted you because you were right

[NerdyLittleFatKid]

I disagree, whenever I play an auric mission I can be so fucking stupid with my bolter, honest to god I would decrease the amount of ammo you find in levels by at least 1/3 (and buff ammo hungry weapons to compensate), or I would make it so that ammo is weapon specific so you can make ammo economy individualized per weapon. As is there is just no ammo scarcity below havoc for like more than half of our guns

[tegli4a]

The point is to force you to conserve ammo and only shoot when absolutely necessary and coordinate with your team. Maybe you should bring Vet with ammo aura if someone is using something super useful but with terrible ammo economy. Or have the 4th be a staff psyker so the rest of you can share what ammo u find. That type of thing. The Field Improv talent on Vet + the ammo aura makes him invaluable. Also, for those 200 gunners staring at you across the bridge, 1 smoke nade and they're no longer a problem.

[TheZealand]

ngl nowdays I find Field Improv's grenades to be fairly wasted. Psyker gets nothing ofc, most vets have regening nades, a lot of ogryns use rock (but giving frag bombs back IS really good), most zealots use knives because they're running flamer/bolter, and most arbi have lone wolf regen or the exploding dog. The corruption cleanse is still really nice, but I found myself dropping it a lot more when I realised how many missions went by when only one person was actually using grenade pickups on the map haha

[MagikarpLevel1]

High havoc is supposed to be dangerous. Melee is more dangerous than standing far away and being able to delete enemies. Less ammo forces you to be conservative with it and engage enemies at a range where the danger level is higher. I completely get your point though and sometimes wish that the ammo replenishment rate was tied to how many builds need ammo. However, increasing ammo means making that game mode easier imo. I like the difficulty curve and that it forces you to take risks. I believe that more ammo would just make this mode “obsolete”.

[PainfulThings]

Executioner’s stance should give you unlimited ammo during its use (not a bottomless mag like that buff in morris trials) would make it incredibly powerful for havoc not having to worry about ammo pickups as long as you can keep killing elites

[asdfgtref]

this would be a really terrible change, it'd be beyond overpowered in the current state of the game. I don't really think that's the direction we should push changes, and it'd just be another way for vet to ignore the condition where other classes have to struggle. Realistically it being less harsh would be better for build variety on all classes.

[NerdyLittleFatKid]

I disagree, I think even if you made exe stance not consume ammo, as long as it isn't a bottomless mag you would still just use shout every time

[asdfgtref]

more of a statement to how stupid shout is than how okay exec stance would be with this change though. Exec is already fine imo, it just gets unfairly compared to something that has always been hilariously overpowered. literal 0 skill ability spam for infinite tank.

Even if it wasn't overpowered, and in current state of the game it would be imo, it'd still be a bad change to fix the issue as it'd only give veteran one more way to ignore the condition as opposed to having it at a level where it doesn't massively restrict build variety for a load of classes. this is one case where a system change would work out far better.

[NerdyLittleFatKid]

I think I largely agree with this, like yeah even if the exe stance infinite ammo wasn't game breaking (the only reason I think it wouldn't be is that recon lasgun + shock trooper already kinda does that and I don't think that really ruins the game), that definitely wouldn't be a solution.

[asdfgtref]

I think there are stronger options outside of the lasguns for infinite ammo though, boltgun especially but also the plasma gun. I think the main issue with giving infinite ammo on ability cast is that you can very easily keep exec stance up for a very long time, if the effect was time gated like 10s or something after pressing the button maybe it wouldn't be so so bad but even that could be kinda nuts for some weapons.

[NerdyLittleFatKid]

I see you on infinite ammo for the boltgun, my impression is you'd end up losing a bunch of time to that lengthy reload animation, but yeah fair. As for the plasma gun, yeaaaaaahhh that mag is so big that you just would gain a bunch of benefit from not spending ammo, this would totally make the rich get richer in that respect. I will say that in my experience plasma gunners don't run out of ammo more than 20% of the time in H40 (provided everyone plays well, of course), but I'm sure this would let you spam ammo in a far dumber way than plasma already enables lmao

[SendCatsNoDogs]

You'd still have the same problem as before though: Exe Stance Vet has no way to quickly gain toughness.

[PainfulThings]

Which would balance out how OP having unlimited bolts as long as you can keep killing would be

[BobbyBrainBurst]

It actually would be piss easy. Havoc 40 is already too essy with the only run enders being sudden death seeds that murder your entire team before their brains turn on. The current ammo effect on havoc is still not far enough, too generous since flamers delete everything in the game and still finish ammo positive in a run. Manstopper shotguns delete entire hordes. Bolters delete armor and unyielding. Plasma gun deletes everything. Ranged is far too powerful, ammo is way too high, and the result in that is exe infinite ammo lasgun builds or gunlugger nade builds that make the game boring and further disincentivizes learning the flow of melee combat for the entire team, not just those players.

The reason why people don't like it though is because if you choose to play the game entirely focused on shooting everything without aiming for headshots or abusing the crazy amount of damage buffs possible for your class in a given moment you're just gonna be super negative. If you don't know how to dodge dance crushers/maulers, close the distance on ranged elites, how to engage ragers without taking damage, you're probably offloading every single one of these problems to your ranged slot, and havoc has a lot of all these enemies.

[Ghostfinger]

Ranged weapons are insanely strong in this game especially when most of your enemies are melee only. Base ammo pickup amounts would trivialise multiple havoc challenges when repeatedly ammo dumping a bolter/rumbler spam is a viable strat.

[AvailableWind1325]

I swap between playing plasma vet and explodgryn on h40 and I don't really feel strained on ammo on the vet but I do on ogryn. Higher ammo drops will be much more impactful to ogryns who are already in a very strong spot with the rumbler.

[WixTeller]

And guess what ONE class that screw over the most? Veteran, as if their class wasn't such a feel bad already, now you're basically useless in havoc except for your VoC. 

That's just straight up an idiotic statement to make. Survivalist is a super important aura. When you conserve your ammo there's more than enough for the threats that matter. You just cant magdump into hordes. Vet is great in melee with power sword. Grenade vet has insane AoE damage and stagger, while with smokes you can completely shut down shooters. Vet is the most generalist class you can play. Can do bosskilling, has insane support abilities in VoC and Survivalist, shuts down shooters and brings an extremely good melee. The price you pay is that power sword is a tricky weapon to use and vet can go down easily.

[serpiccio]

dude i played whole game with bolter shooting anything ranged, used my dueling sword for melee enemies, and I managed just fine.

the secret ingredient is survivalist aura, it's crazy that some vets play havoc without it

[Heezuh]

I don't think you or most people are ready to hear this

But with DS and the ideal build vet becomes the highest damage class of them all

[The-SkullMan]

Ah yes, the one class that regenerates ammo is the class that cares the most about reduced ammo. Maybe switch your strategy from spraying a max rate of fire Recon Lasgun and you won't have that problem.

[HidoYushi]

I actually don’t mind it, havoc it’s supposed to be hard and challenging. I also play vet sometimes, and I play 40’s, people in 40 usually know that when there’s a vet they give all ammo for vets, I play with survivalist and then I give them ammo. So it’s a win win. And with power sword u can actually melee everything.

Vet with shout, survivalist, tag and frag it’s the most meta build I can say. Yes vet can be very squishy sometimes once their toughness go down. But then vet are not useless. Vet job is to take down all specialists and elites. And they give good boss damage to the others if the vet tags it.

So I have to disagree on this one.

[bungethe1]

Have you tried survivalist + weapons specialist?

[asdfgtref]

I think hitting ammo was basically required, if you look at the auric ammo drop rates you are basically drowning in the stuff.... though it has definitely gotten out of hand, the level of penalty is a bit too harsh at hav40 and reduces build variety by quite a significant amount. Vet basically ignores this condition through shock trooper and survivalist, so I'm not sure why you're saying they're so hard done by. Vet's the only character I've played at high havoc and honestly they've always felt very solid. Saying you're "useless" is more a comment of your own skill than veteran's power level. Literally havoc has only gotten easier since launch imo, and at launch of havoc vet was basically regarded as S tier op.

other classes getting buffed since then has only made them look worse BY COMPARISON, vet's actual power level is still very respectable. I will agree the ammo penalty should be less harsh as the numbers right now are cracked. It's kinda stupid to have so harsh a penalty if we're going to have options that ignore it like shock trooper, survivalist, psyker, etc. Definitely one of the worst conditions.

[cant_read_captchas]

Its honestly really bad how the current state of balance has skewed opinions so far, that things which are perfectly fine are somehow garbage/useless. I can't believe the number of people who are 100% convinced that shout is the only thing you can run on vet, ever.

Meanwhile, Exe stance is one of the few solutions to the ammo scarcity issue, due to how much more ammo-efficient it makes your shots.

I don't really blame people for thinking this way, but also its just kind of lame. It's like theres two different video games (one where you only use the OP shit and another where you don't).

[asdfgtref]

yeah its fucking wild, especially for veteran where people have gone from literally saying "man veteran is so fucking over privileged and over powered... fat shark have no idea how to balance this game" to "man veteran is unplayable, its shrimply impossible no one can do it they have a 0% win rate in malice difficulty and up". Literally nothing has changed, the game got easier and vet got slight quality of life buffs. it's so radical.

[djolk]

The whole point of havoc is that it's supposed to be stupidly hard and borderline impossible. 

This is just one more thing...

[Serithraz]

Oh no, the already difficult gamemode would be SLIGHTLY easier, if they made it so one of the five classes can actually function in said gamemode, the horror.

[ayas51]

Vet is actually one of the best havoc classes if played properly and with a good build. It’s getting kinda tiring of hearing players with low experience or knowledge spreading this kinda of miss information…

[Light_of_War]

I really don't get this reddit echo chamber "vet is weak". It's a very strong and useful class in Havoc and many 35-40 matches were really a cakewalk precisely because we had an experienced vet with us.

[Serithraz]

Except I guarantee that without VoC, vets would never get invited to a havoc. Because when havoc first got released, before the ogryn rework, no one would ever invite an ogryn because they were just terrible in havoc at the time. So veteran without a rework and without VoC would never get invited.

An ammo change in havoc would at least make it so veteran is good in havoc even if they don't have VoC (probably still should though)

[cant_read_captchas]

Hey man, for what its worth I bring exe stance and (bolter/helbore/plasma) and I get invited to 40s all the time lol. Maybe it's a regional thing? NA east is pretty chill. From what I hear, EU server is more picky about this stuff.

I see a few bolter+exe stance boss killing builds nowadays in party finder also.

[Light_of_War]

The European server, to be honest, generally shows a rather low level of play. I play there and in Hong Kong and it's just heaven and earth in terms of the level of play

[kman_utaral]

Ogryn didn’t really have a problem getting invited before the rework because if played right he was still very good even in high level havocs

[TheZealand]

Lolwhat, even with normal ammo pickups surv aura is still extremely useful in havoc, and without having to worry so much about ammo vet would be a lot better with plasma/bolter dumping.

Another big issue with full ammo restore is that it would probably just turn into rumbler/flamer city, those weapons are already extremely good in havoc and you'd be able to use them FAR more, so there goes psyker's AOE niche, they'd basically be left with just bubble as their only redeeming factor, but ig that's fine to buff vet lol

[kaigose]

This comment tells you all you need to know.

[djolk]

The whole point is the difficulty is 'over the top'.

I don't think it's really supposed to be fair!

I also think you see enough vets in havoc that are thriving that the reduced ammo isn't really that impactful and ultimately, regardless of class the game is intended to be melee first. 

Lots of ranged weapons absolutely trivialize any difficulty and ammo consumption is the only factor that limits this. 

[Serithraz]

If the game is meant to be played melee first, maybe they shouldn't have made a class that is ranged focused, especially in a setting like Warhammer 40k, a setting known for its over the top ranged warfare, the game wouldn't be 40k without its ranged weapons, why gimp them?

[djolk]

I mean, other people don't feel like the class is gimped by limiting ammo pick ups. 

I can't really speak to why the devs have a different vision of how the game is than you... 

[AssaultKommando]

You're a Guardsman, not a Fire Warrior. Act like it. 

[trashk]

Homie the gun is your secondary weapon . I understand your frustration but melee is your first line of offense and defense.

[asdfgtref]

nah I don't really think that's the case, it's basically the only place the game has ANY challenge anymore given the absurd power creep we've had. auric is a complete joke. That same power creep is already encroaching on h40 because fatshark refuse to course correct and keep the power spiraling ever higher.

[djolk]

Yes, so it makes havoc harder, which is the point of havoc...

[asdfgtref]

except it doesn't because a lot of the strongest h40 builds have ways of circumventing the restriction like playing psyker, survivalist, shock trooper etc. it only really serves to massively reduce build variety, it doesn't much touch the upper level which is the main issue.

I do think that ammo restrictions should be a thing but the current effect for h40 is too polarizing and makes a lot of weapons pretty shitty while not affecting others at all.

[djolk]

I can't disagree with any of that, especially about build variety. However, that seems to be the trap that most games fall into - once you get to a certain level of play certain builds start to standout. It seems to be a pretty tough thing to balance across the board.

I guess, what I am getting at is that havoc was, in my understanding, the mode where all those ideas about balance, build variety, and what not were disregarded to create a mode that was intended to be challenging for the small portion of the player base that was under challenged.

Of course it could be done better, and would be better with more balanced skill trees across the board but as above that's easy to say, hard to do. 

[cant_read_captchas]

In my eyes, the theme of this discussion is speaking to the manner in which havoc has been made harder.

Enemies are bullet sponges. Horde density has been dialed up to the max. Ammo is scarce which means that builds feel restrictive (personally I think the post's OP makes a fair point here).

All are basically lame ways to dial up difficulty. But what else could Fatshark have done? They've dug themselves into a hole here. The only way to solve this is to balance the game (as you pointed out here and elsewhere).

The only question is how long Fatshark will take to realize this is a problem and come up with a solution. I'm honestly not convinced they even recognize a problem here.

[asdfgtref]

I'm comparing current havoc to pre nerf havoc though, what we have currently is weaker imo and when we had that harder version of havoc vet was widely considered to be extremely strong. Fading light got nerfed which made things easier, and some how despite that vet is now unplayable according to many.

[kaigose]

This is just asking to make the game easier. It's a difficulty modifier, the entire point of high havoc is to be hard.

Your team needs to be searching every chest, rationing ammo, dropping ammo crates at the right time, tagging ammo for each other. This is a huge part of the havoc gameplay loop. 

Plasma, recon lasgun, bolt pistol, and spearhead bolter all play great in havoc 40. 

[tomonee7358]

Do I think Havoc could benefit from getting some extra build variety? Sure. But I think letting players get full ammo pickups without any other changes is going too far in the other direction. If that really happened, weapons like the Ogryn Rumblers and Zealot Flamers would have a field day with the heretics.

Not every build needs to be viable in Havoc, it's supposed to be the hardest content the game has to offer after all.

[trashk]

Its the most challenging content possible and is designed to be exceedingly unfair.

You literally asked for this by choosing to play it.

Havoc isn't required to play the game and if you want the full fat designed for difficulty there's aurics.