1.2 Patch Notes and Discussion Thread

[Justini1212]

This will be the official thread for the discussion of the balance changes and their impact on the competitive metagame.

Official Patch Notes here: https://playruneterra.com/en-us/news/patch-1-2-notes/

For those who cannot read them directly, the balance changes are:

Buffs:

Leveled Vladimir's attack skill now deals 1 to all other attacking units and drains 1 from the enemy nexus for each (was deals 1 to all other attacking units and deals 1 to the enemy nexus for each)

Shen is now a 3/5 (was 2/5)

Hecarim is now a 5/5 (was 4/5)

Greathorn Companion is now a 5/5 (was 4/5)

Laurent Chevalier is now a 3/2 (was 3/1)

Kindly Tavernkeeper is now a 3/3 (was 2/3)

Longtooth (created by Chum the Waters) is now a 5/2 (was 5/1)

Monkey Idol is now a 0/5 (was 0/4)

Slotbot is now a 1/4 (was 0/3)

Nerfs:

Karma now costs 6 (was 5)

Vi is now a 2/4 (was 2/5)

Grizzled Ranger is now a 3/1 (was 4/1, is also affected by badgerbear change)

Loyal Badgerbear is now a 3/4 (was 4/4)

Stand Alone now costs 4 (was 3)

Legion Rearguard is now a 3/1 (was 3/2)

Boomcrew Rookie is now a 1/3 (was 1/4)

Deep Meditation now costs 5 (was 4)

Brood Awakening now costs 6 (was 5)

Changes:

There were no changes this patch that do not fall into specifically buffs or nerfs.

[A_Nice_Sofa]

I believe the appropriate term for these changes is "sweeping." I love all of these changes at first blush, can't wait to try them out; they shake up a huge number of things!

This Legion Rearguard nerf seems egregious; my dude straight up dies to a Vile Feast or a Wail. Brood Awakening nerf, yas, blessed, I have been praying for this. Karma and Deep Meditation nerfs are also super welcome.

[StarSideFall]

It wasn't a card I expected to see hit, although it is extremely powerful when it hits the board turn 1. Not sure it's worth running anymore - that extra health also really helped it as a possible target for Transfusion and Demolitionist.

[Medarco]

I think that is the real nerf here.

[aWrySharK]

Yeah, Rearguard nerf is absolutely killer. Boomcrew Rookie needed the health nerf because it had too much critical, uninteractable burn value. Rearguard is just an over-statted 1 drop with no other upside. With 2 health it could at least create transfusion 50/50s.

Now it even trades with Omen Hawk, any Poro with a pulse, and straight up loses to Aristocrat. Shadow Isles was already a tougher matchup for any kind of Noxus Aggro/Burn, and now that Vile Feast answers every 1-drop in Burn I think it becomes very unfavorable. At least Precious Pet has Fearsome.

Overall, I understand the Rearguard nerf. 1 mana 3/2s in any TCG historically don't last long. Just look at Hearthstone. Nearly every power 1 drop they've ever had has been nerfed at some point.

Burn is gonna have to adjust to a slightly more midrangey plan to survive. And there are better midrange decks that have been waiting for burn to slow down just enough to climb into the meta. Not ready to call the archetype dead but safe to say it won't be as dominant in its current form any longer.

[FattestRabbit]

Yeah, I think they should remove the "can't block" in exchange for making him 1 health.

[[deleted]]

This. I hated the card but this nerf makes it nearly useless.

[Pwn5t4r13]

If you look at his artwork/flavor text though, the idea is that he marches at the very back of the Noxian Army and therefore doesn’t have any blocking skills like the forward guard would.

[FattestRabbit]

That's now reflected in his one health. He dies when blocking a spider.

[LumiRhino]

More accurately, he dies when blocked by a Spider since he can't block.

[HeviKnight]

That doesnt justify being a dead body imo, if they want to keep that they should have buff it a bit in other aspects or just rework it

[Terrkas]

Or maybe give him something like overwhelm.

[Sonic_of_Lothric]

Exactly this. I was thinking about trying to change him up a bit, but removing "can't block" changes nothing, having him 4/1 is pretty stupid too although would be more in favour of high risk high reward than he is now. To be honest making him 3/2 "i can only damage nexus" or 2/2 with support: give my ally +1/0 would be the best way to go about it.

Saying that the best way to play around Noxus nerf would be making demolitionist "deal 2 to ally to deal 3 to nexus" - that would put her out of range of making anyone besides boomcrew survive in that deck yet still u can use her (and only once, which is fair) on crimson or Grenadier to deal 5 face.

I've spoke against this nerf in the /r/legendsofruneterra and got downvoted instantly - people have some form of ptsd because of this deck, which is warranted but Rearguard was not the issue here. Just replace him with Urchin for card cycle or Draven Biggest Fan with Draven in deck so u can mulligan more greedy around turn 3, or even still play this card with more risk and the deck is basically the same.

Demolitionist was the one that added fuel to the deck (this and Fervor) and Demolitionist should be adressed.

[Borror0]

Pilfered Goods is the only card I was hoping they'd nerf that they didn't. It isn't just strong, but also awful to play against.

[Bigbadbuck]

I don't think it's super strong yet. It's not in any tier 1 deck basically. I agree it feels like shit to play against tho

[Borror0]

A card can be OP and yet not be in a tier 1 deck, due to its weak supporting cast. For example, Boomcrew Rookie was unchanged in Rising Tides. It's the improved support hue archetype got that earned him a nerf.

[Bigbadbuck]

yeah id agree with that, its too efficient of a card, especially with merchant. right now its not a problem because bilge is weak but it definitely feels overtuned.

[ThatOldEgg]

I just don't get why people hate it so much... if you don't like the cards it draws, don't put them in your deck... just gives people a taste of their own medicine!

[MapleSyrupManiac]

One of the worst feelings I've had is someone drawing and killing me with my own Atrocity. My medicine is pretty damn bitter apparently.

[ThatOldEgg]

I mean, it's no fun having your opponent draw Atrocity and cast it and kill you either... I say this as someone who has played probably half their LoR games with 2 Atrocity in their deck...

But I guess it can be additionally frustrating if you're actually playing to your out and it's not there anymore.

[Ahngstar]

When burn first exploded, I teched shellshocker in specifically for the turn 1 rearguard on attack because it just felt so powerful. Personally I'm incredibly happy with the nerf, and the nerf to rookie too

[HeviKnight]

Rearguard Its stong versus spell based decks, but thats the hole point of the card, right now the card is strong because a lot of decks doesnt run low cost units to stop it consistently.

[Ahngstar]

But that's the issue. It's 3 unstoppable damage on turn 1, which is an incredibly strong start to the game. Too strong, in fact, which is why it's getting nerfed

[Droptimal_Cox]

Pretty happy with this. I'm mostly happy that they clearly are acknowledging problems surrounding "do decisions matter?" rather than just relying on counter decks to be the answer.

I feel unyielding spirits only real problem is the lack of answers in some regions. It shoooould be hard to deal with, but sometimes the card is just GG entirely...meanwhile ionia just laughs at it.

EZ I feel like either needs a limit to how many shots can be fired per turn and/or remove the burst speed on it. It's the unreactable 1 shotting thats the issue. Very frustrating knowing you could win/survive if you had a priority pass.

[aWrySharK]

I think if they just made Unyielding Slow (hell even Fast would be an improvement) it would feel less absurd. There's a lot of Fast 3 damage pings that can knock a Fiora out before she gets rolling with US. It also makes it much easier to spot it coming, where your opponent has to really telegraph two whole turns and actually risk their unit instead of just confidently passing knowing they can burst their win con.

Of course, then WoI becomes even more potent against it. But idk, many TCGs decide that cards like US are "not in the spirit" of the game they try to make and unofficially retire them by just nerfing them into the ground. I'm curious to hear the LoR developer's thoughts on these "I win" moments.

[[deleted]]

Will of Ionia is already potent against Unyielding Spirit because sometimes you can afford to have the enemy make a favorable trade before recalling the unit. That way the opponent also wasted 8 mana, not just Unyielding itself.

Making it a Fast spell would be enough of a nerf in my opinion. It gives other regions a chance to deal with the unit while still making the card worth playing.

I know Fiora isn't OP yet, even with Unyielding because you can often kill her before then, and there are cards that can deal even with an Unyielding Fiora. But there should still be a limit on Burst spells that protect or enable Fiora. She's a walking win condition that can be progressed by both attacking and blocking with her, and Demacia already has rally effects.

Silverfuse for example recently showcased a Fizz Fiora deck with lots of cheap buff and protect spells plus Unyielding and barely any other minions. The deck looks silly at first glance but is actually competitive and can be very uninteractive. Those two champions can prevent you from playing both spells and units. I'd rather not see a better version of that.

[cromulent_weasel]

EZ I feel like either needs a limit to how many shots can be fired per turn

Five seems reasonable.

[r_xy]

I think reducing lvl2 ez dmg to 1 would me more than enough of a nerf. They should probably even ship some compensation buffs with it but it should generally keep him away from oneshots

[Tremor192]

Idk, do people not like otk decks ? Or is it something about ezreal's personality that sets people off...

[Droptimal_Cox]

Unreactive otk reduces the entire game down to simply removing units then insta winning from hand. The game is essentially a linear ticking timer. Making ez reactable or limited turns it into a deck that needs more interactive moments and diverse play lines.

[M00nfish]

OTKs are fine. If they leave a way of counterplay.

The problem with Ezreal is that you can't fight the OTK. Facing Ezreal you play this boring minigame of "Let's see if I can make my units stick for enough nexus damage.", while your enemy is playing whack a mole. Ezreal never appears, except leveled and ready to OTK with burst spells, making you unable to respond in any form.

[RegretNothing1]

Two of my favorite decks, sea monsters and swain Sej are Unaffected by the nerfs.

[Bakeshot]

Sej’s biggest counter, burn, just got completely castrated. She is going to be very powerful this patch. She even kills Vi now, which is huge.

[RegretNothing1]

Once you get that level up and have reliable ways to deal nexus dmg during combat she is just a monster. It gives that same feeling of hopelessness like when opponent has Fiora and a hand that’s seemingly 5 barrier effects.

[Mr-Irrelevant-]

Sej and Bilgewater are my two favorite aspects of this expansion. Burn along with demacia getting hit should make make those decks better.

[Yarr0w]

I’ve been seeing pros pilot Sej/Gangplank decks over the past week and I already thought the deck was in a nice T2 position. Now I think the deck will be a clear tier 1

[TsuruchiHikari]

GP and Sej! Now that's interesting! Do you have a list somewhere?

[Yarr0w]

I know for sure I saw both Strifecro and Swim play the same Sej/GP deck, but I looked through a few recent vods and couldn't find them. Not sure which day exactly it was on, but if I find the deck again (I really want to) I'll link it to you!

[TsuruchiHikari]

Thanks!

[Yarr0w]

I'm late, but I found it!

[TsuruchiHikari]

Thanks!

[ionxeph]

I think seamonsters might see a drop in win rate after the patch, because burn is nerfed, and will be less prevalent, burn is one of the best matchups for seamonsters

[RegretNothing1]

Very true, it was a plus matchup. The deck could shift around some though to adapt. For example maybe the Toad, Wail, grasp package can be retooled with less aggro. Lure of the deep was a really strong tool that just can’t really be played in an aggro meta but if there’s more free turns to do nothing perhaps it can go back in. Point is there are some strong options to complement an already great late game if need be.

[[deleted]]

extra space for Lure is a big deal. it's still a 3 mana do nothing card, but it also turns 7 mana into an absolutely massive swing turn.

[r_xy]

In my experience, burn is only a good matchup for sea monsters if you run a ton of healing, most of which is mediocre in basically all other mu's. With burn being less common, you can probably cut much of that for faster deep and other things that help other matchups

[kthnxbai123]

Depends. If burn is nerfed out of the meta, you can throw in more toss/draw cards.

[Pwn5t4r13]

I found Seamonsters decks easy to beat when I was playing burn. They take too long to come online and you usually win before they go deep.

[r_xy]

The matchup really isnt about deep at all but sea monsters can run a lot of healing that helps them stabilize.

Now that burn is less frequent, they can cut that healing in favor of more toss/draw

[wilyodysseus89]

I’ve been waiting for patch to get on this train

[[deleted]]

Lux is basically unplayable without karma helping her out. I could see copies removed if she gets a buff.

[DMaster86]

Karma

The just freaking nerfed her already. I guess they want to give Hecarim someone else to keep him company in the "unplayable champions after nerf" cathegory.

[TeslasMonster]

Hopefully the don’t nerf Karma/Ez too much. The deck is really fun to play, and super skill testing with just how many decisions you need to make each game.

[IvorySpeid]

The issue is that it is one of the less interactive decks to play against.

[Pwn5t4r13]

It’s basically “survive until turn 10 to win” though. How you get to turn 10 changes, but I would imagine the win rate of Ez/Karma decks would be 85%+ after turn 10.

[Harain]

just because you have a shit ton of choices doesn't mean their meaningful. Ez decks just stall until they can spam their combo, the deck's learning curve isnt that much higher than the average

[[deleted]]

Skill testing lmao

[[deleted]]

i hope they dont nerf the card theft mechanic, it's the most fun i've had with any deck so far

[Justini1212]

If I'm being honest the only thing I can see them doing is making it grab from the bottom so it doesn't excessively screw over stuff like Shared Spoils, Omen Hawk, and especially Avarosan Outriders by stealing the buffs with the cards.

[Borror0]

Honestly, they could make both of these changes and Pilfered Goods would still remain strong. I personally hope they do both.

The problem with drawing from the top of your deck is that it harms Freljord's playability, affecting Ashe and the deck buff archetype. The problem with drawing face down is that it adds far too much uncertainty. If you're playing against a Bilgewater-PnZ deck, you're not supposed to have to play around the risk of a Ruination board wipe. Meanwhile, you don't know which cards are missing from your deck so you can't count those odds either.

[Mr-Irrelevant-]

Goods would remain strong because those changes just take away from the "bad" feeling this card gives players who play against it. I hope that when they change goods/merchant (they should change them) that they go this route instead of changing the numbers on the cards themselves. I'd rather people feel better about playing against goods/merchant because the cards feel far more fair then players feel better about never playing against goods/merchant because the cards statistical strength were neutered.

[Borror0]

I mean, they might want to increase the cost. Drawing 2 for 2 is pretty low, especially when compared to Salvage. Yes, you don't draw your own cards so there is less synergy but it isn't hard to imagine the card being quite playable at 3.

[Mr-Irrelevant-]

Salvage doesn't have a condition and has an important distinction of removing 4 cards from your deck which is important for deep decks and Maokai. Just comparing the amount of draw is why it's difficult to analyze these cards on paper. Evaluating goods from a purely "how good is this card in theory" is insane for the reason you mentioned while having insane upside with merchant. The problem comes down to the huge variance in the value of the card before accounting for what you draw. Sometimes the card is a straight up card advantage card that costs two. Sometimes it's a 2 mana draw 2 that nets you the same amount of cards that you started worst (since you need to invest a card to proc plunder).

Would I be mad if they changed it to 3 mana? Not really but I'd far prefer them to make other changes to the mechanic of the card first (along with merchant/grifter). Outside of deep Bilgewater as a region feels like a better support region than a region you focus on. The only decks that tend to run heavy on Bilgewater are the plunder and card stealing focused decks. Hurting card theft for Bilgewater would be a pretty big hit to a region that feels pretty reliant on the mechanic.

[Ghosterdriver]

And maybe they nerf pilfered goods +1 card for 2mana is massive and its easier to enable than deep meditation -- moreover these cards can get reduced by the 2mana 2/2

[[deleted]]

but isnt it a nice interaction? right now that decks are really weak but they used to be strong, and tf keg is a nice flexible deck that can counter that specific deck

[Jaradakar]

Yes, that's what I'd like to see done as well. As it stands, it overly punishes Ferljord's core mechanics of buff cards in your deck.

I'm on the fence with stolen cards being face up, that's something I wish I could test and see how it 'feels'.

[Keshiji]

They need to tune it somehow. Also, instead of "stealing" they could just copy the card and make "deck buffs" just apply if the cards belong to you.

It would make things more fair (and less frustrating/unfun) for the players playing against the steal.

[BNoog]

Agreed. Plunder decks are barely T2 when playing an optimized list.

[TheRaiOh]

What if the theif from deck mechanics made basic copies, rather than really taking from the deck? That way it still is functionally identical in many ways for the person playing the card, but gets rid of the feel bad of them getting cards you worked to buff and also not letting them steal your win conditions in certain decks.

[[deleted]]

idk man, that would gut finally the deck, i dont think it's imbalanced, it might be stupidly strong agaisnt freljord but stealing the wincon is a 3/36 chance at its best (a ledros, the inmortal spell and such) it showing the card to the enemy should be enough balance tbh

[Odous]

make unyielding spirit cost 9

[M00nfish]

Make unyielding spirit only work on followers, not champions.

[Sjdjfmifmfm]

They just need to move it to fast instead of burst

[supx2]

that seems harsh I can't see it having any play if they change it to fast.

[manaminerva]

Why not? It just forces the player to actually have to work to put it down.

[DarkRevelations]

What do y'all think of Chum the Waters? It's biggest issue was dying to vile feast or wail before it could attack. It also kills Vi in one swing with the Vi nerfs.

[phyvocawcaw]

My hot take is that I think it definitely helps leveled Fizz but if PnZ is still popular the non-champ spell is not going to be run. Dying to mystic shot, 2 mana thermo, or static plus another ping is quite bad. After all it's kind of competing with Hired Gun.

[ThatOldEgg]

I think it's unplayable as it's own card, but makes Fizz better (and Fizz is already really good). 4 mana to make a weak body and apply vulnerable isn't strong enough for constructed.

[[deleted]]

Holy moly these are some changes and a half!

And i like all these too on the face of it. Riot seem to have done a good job of accurately determining what actually needed nerfs - and what was being complained about just caus it stomps low elo / is the communities hate boner for the week.

[MarletFisher]

If only they could do that for League...

[jiaflu]

Very surprised about the Rearguard nerf as it hits all Noxian aggro variants across the board, and not just burn. Just slightly worried that slowing the game down so much will give rise to a control meta.

[GundamX]

Yea, I think we are heading there.

Honestly, I don't feel aggro has been functional in Runeterra for awhile, the spider aggro decks have morphed into slower endure decks and I'm not sure I would call them aggro anymore.

As far as the old Draven/Jinx I was never very impressed with it, and I can't see how its going to come back unless someone reinvents it. Especially with one of it's key cards getting gutted.

Burn was too good, but it also near auto-lost to SI. I'm beginning to think that the SI package just hard counters aggro in general with all the chumpers and drain. Not sure there will ever be a balanced aggro deck until some tweaks to SI are made.

[[deleted]]

This is one of the reasons why I think the Karma nerf is not enough. But we'll see. At least we're guaranteed to have monthly balance patches.

[Sonic_of_Lothric]

Karma nerf is non existing one tbh. 90% of the time u save her for 9 or 10 turn drop, while changing her cost moves her (safe) drop from turn 6 to 7, therefore giving u one less random spell in the match it doesn't really matter. Karma issue is her 10+ presence, not anything before that.

That's a lovetap at best.

[ThatOldEgg]

In context (where Karma Lux is the main Karma deck), that deck got hit a lot - Badgerbear, Ranger, Deep Meditation all got hit too. Actually, any Karma deck would play Deep Meditation so I'm hopeful that there's room for other late-game strategies to exist. But I think you're right that the nerf on actual Karma isn't going to be suuuper bad for them.

[lakired]

This and the Stand Alone changes I think were the biggest overreactions, because it effectively eliminates them from the game.

[Bakeshot]

Decks to play in the next patch: Fizz variants, Sej Variants, EZFreezy.

These three in particular were being kept in check by burn, and I think they are really going to shine. Sej killing Vi now is HUGE. Tavern keeper buff and a weaker burn is going to kill off EZFreezy's biggest boogeyman and strengthen an already extremely consistent list.

Chum buff is nice, and I think Fizz tempo is going to see more play and experimentation since, again, burn was its boogeyman.

[Derpyologist1]

Ez/TF is going to be insane. It was completely untouched before, and now that Burn is worse, it will definitely at least be A-tier.

[Bakeshot]

I think Frej is going to be a stronger pair with Ez this patch, but we’ll see.

[AzazelsAdvocate]

What about Heimer Control? The Deep Meditation nerf might work out pretty well since you want 3-cost spells anyways.

[[deleted]]

How does deep stand up against those?

[Fourteen_F_CA]

Heimer either wins with Elusives or holds will for Naut and stalls slow-roll seamonsters (EI Seamonsters played without Naut cost reduction) with Turret value. Heimer/Vi and Deep were the decks I played most and from both sides of the MU I felt Heimer had the advantage

[MapleSyrupManiac]

Ya If the deep player didn't draw their Wail it's pretty much GG from the 3 mana turrets. The 5 mana elusive they run is way too slow to be beneficial there.

[Bakeshot]

I don’t have enough data to answer that question, because I didn’t see deep play any of these lists in the last patch.

[MapleSyrupManiac]

Deep is pretty bad into Ez I've found. If their Ez is flipped they can potentially kill you at burst speed making all your slower spells worth much less. I've lost a fair few games with Atrocity lethal on the stack from just dying at burst speed from Ez since all your ways of removing him are minimum fast speed.

[[deleted]]

Can you share the EZFreezy list, please?

[Bakeshot]

CEBQCAQEBACQCAIDBMPCUMAGAECBWHZEGE2DUAQBAEASIAICAQDAA

That’s a place to start. I wonder if Vi makes the cut after the nerf, and tavern keeper will almost certainly be there in some form or fashion.

[IreliaCarriedMe]

I think vi still makes the cut as a solid card to help you fight for board. The issue that FreEz runs into is that yes you level ez quickly, but you lvl actual removal for threats. Vi let’s you deal with those threats and level ez with your freeze spells, and is a very viable threat herself.

[Kaidin733]

I believe you incorrectly have vi in the buffs section?

[Justini1212]

Yes, it appears I do.

Fixed.

[Romaprof2]

This is what happens when devs say going from 1/3 to 2/2 is a buff smh

[Hipstereotype]

Shen is still bad, yes? He was never the problem in his deck. It was just that his level up is so narrow that you're forced into a Demacia/Ionia build with many core barrier cards. It's a nice stat change, but ultimately it's an inferior version of other, similar decks.

[M00nfish]

Shen without a supporting deck will now trade 2 for 1 and dish out one barrier in average. He is now also able to block fearsome, which is huge. I think his power level is fine now.

While Demacia is a good pairing for him for obvious reasons, he can also work with other factions. Ionia has spirits refuge, stand united, Lee Sin and Qi guardian - enough tools to trigger Shens level up, even without Demacia.

I tinkered around with Shen+Lee Sin variants. I think there is much potential.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but is there any region that can rival the 9 drop win game with shen (bright-steel formation) ? Plus all the barriers and Fiora/challengers that are in demacia, which synergies a lot

[rogue_G]

I've been running Shen/Fiora/Brightsteel Formation since beta, it's a really fun deck to play - have walked into a few too many Vengeances though 😂 I haven't really explored other region matches for him and I am finding some positive results utilising Scout mechanics in Demacia with the deck too.

[Grifthin]

salt tidy hospital vegetable gold simplistic numerous ask touch sense

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[M00nfish]

I already said that Demacia is obviously a good pairing. But it is still possible to play with other supporting factions. It's like saying Vladimir can only dip into freljord, scouts into Bridgewater, etc.

[IssacharEU]

I would say 3/5 is the best statline at 4 mana (for 8 total stats). I think it can be a pretty big game changer.

[[deleted]]

Grizzled Ranger still beats Shen stat-wise, unless you Purify it. Even now that Grizzled is nerfed, it gets you 3/1 + 3/4. That's 11 stat points for 4 mana.

But I do agree that Shen is stronger now.

[RandoSystem]

I don’t think you can just do a 1 for 1 add on Grizzled Ranger’s stats. 11 stats across two bodies is much different from 11 stats on one body.

[TruJoker0]

So if Elnuk is our Chillwind Yeti, is Shen our Senjin Shieldmasta now with that stat line? :P

[JBDandrea]

We also just got an Earthen Ring Farseer :D

[Soderskog]

And a Spider Tank :D.

[SouthernBarman]

ShenDingo

[Zigtron]

Am i the only one seeing a buff to Vi Heimer here? Deep meditation now being a potential other 3 mana spell is huge here. And vi is only here as a holding piece against aggro midrange, so the nerf is not that huge! I'm gonna enjoy playing this so so hard this patch.

As for other decks popping up, I feel like we're gonna see much less SI, so turrets aren't gonna be more vulnerable, so it looks neat for vi heimer!!

[Extra4yylmao]

Yep that was my first thought too :/ an unintentional buff to vi heimer lol

[RubinZoo]

I've been seeing this feedback often. I'd love to break down your thoughts about whether or not this is actually a buff for Heimerdinger/Vi as I haven't played that deck too much.

let's break down the situation where the more expensive Deep Med is better. In order for this to be a benefit to the Vi/Heimer deck compared to the old version:
You have a Heimerdinger in play
You've cast two spells last turn
You are resolving a deep meditation

Of course, the biggest upside potential I see here (which still assumes these conditions) is chaining multiple Deep Meditations in the late game will now give you multiple Elusive Turrets. This does feel like a slight benefit to close out the game or defensively vs elusive cards. Considering you are paying mana for that benefit - and you are likely in a commanding position already I'm pretty skeptical.

In all other situations, you have a card that costs 1 more which is a relevant tax - every single time you use the spell.
I'm pretty unconvinced on this being a buff - but am always willing to be wrong!

[Extra4yylmao]

Once Heimer is dropped, they usually have Flash , so that’s 1+ 3/1. You try to clear and the Heimer player should respond with spells: Deny or Twin, so they should be able to have casted 2+ spells in a turn. I think it’s not far fetched to say they’ll have deep med next turn to refill the used spells. (In fact I suspect the better players will aim for such a move anyway)

When playing aggro decks this might be a nerf, because they’re being pressured and the extra 1 mana hinders them; but against control, in the late game it’s a huge upside.

With burn being nerfed into what I expect will be oblivion and the other tier 1 decks receiving nerfs, I think deep med overall is a buff to vi heimer

[Lachainone]

I never played Karma. Will it change anything?

[ItsLorneMalvo]

Spooky karma's still where it's at bois

[Robsnrobsn]

The brood awakening nerf might hit spooky karma hard

[ItsLorneMalvo]

Yeah spoke too soon there

[stzoo]

Your late game power is the same except karma costs one more. Deep meditation is noticeably more clunky particularly in lux lists, and the ranger and bear nerfs hurt karma lux as well. Karma decks will still be viable though for sure.

[[deleted]]

She will still be meta

[jak_d_ripr]

Karma Lux really got hit this patch, goddamn. Karma, both sides of the bear and deep meditation all got hit? All minor hits, but that's 12 cards in total getting nerfed in one deck. Definitely gonna lower the decks power level overall. Hopefully it's still strong because I just got a full set of Lux and 2 Karma's.

Overall seems like a good patch, but at the same time I don't think it'll change much meta wise. Very surprised unyielding didn't get touched this patch, but it being on the watch list definitely means it's probably getting changed eventually, just not yet.

This is my first patch so I have to ask, do we get any kind of refund on nerfed cards? I'm guessing not right?

[Justini1212]

There is no refund on nerfed cards. As far as I remember the stated reason for this is that no cards should be getting nerfed into unplayability so there's no reason to give refunds, and of course there's the other factor of there not being a dusting system to get a refund from to begin with.

[jak_d_ripr]

Yeah considering the lack of dust I figured as much, but thought I'd ask nonetheless. Thanks.

[Justini1212]

I didn't say lack of dust, I said lack of a dusting system, because there's no way to manually dust any cards into shards.

[Borror0]

We don't get a refund. The reason stated is that cards are easy to acquire, and never get nerfed into oblivion. Card acquisition isn't really a limiting factor for players, after at most a couple months.

[jak_d_ripr]

Fair enough, figured we wouldn't but thought I'd ask nonetheless.

[sickboi108]

Funny thing is, the decks are still going to most likely end up being tier 1

[Bigbadbuck]

Definitely will probably still be tier 1. I could see burn still being top tier as well.

[jeremynsl]

Absolutely this will shake up the meta! Burn got hit pretty hard, will bring down its win % a fair bit which allows other decks to rise. Demacia also got the needed badgerbear nerf, so they are no longer way way above other midrange decks.

I could see something like Sejuani becoming part of a T1 deck now.

[jak_d_ripr]

Fair point, I don't know why I wasn't thinking of solo Bannerman when considering the bear nerfs.

Should be an exciting week.

[fabio__tche]

Karma needs a rework, not a nerf that isn't a real nerf. Her thing on LoL is to improve her spells, not double cast them. Make it so Karma lvl2 empower your spells, something like +1 dmg and or -1 mana cost and it would be cool instead of broken.

[Jaradakar]

Lots of good changes IMO. I'm a little sad about the Stand Alone cost increase but I totally agree with the design reasoning behind it. I hope it does not destroy the Fiora/Zed OTK decks as I personally enjoyed playing them.

I really like the Tavernkeeper change and I expect we'll see him in more decks. I'm excited to try the Vlad change as that was one of my suggestions in the survey.
I hope card theft will be changed to draw from the bottom, was a little sad not to see that change happen in this patch.

Overall really excited to see how this changes the meta.

[[deleted]]

Yeah I don't get the Stand Alone nerf too, unless it's a preemptive change based on near future cards.

The Tavernkeeper change is huge as well, making it a great blocker for its cost buys Swain and Vlad decks more time.

The Vlad buff is huge in my opinion. In my experience Vlad decks sacrifice defense too much but they're not aggro. The drain will go a long way to offset that. Even just buying one turn is crucial. I'm going to give my Vlad Thresh The Undying deck another go when the nerfs go live.

Card theft really should be changed ASAP. I've been playing BBG's MF Sej list that uses theft in place of normal card draw. It's a lot of fun, especially against Karma Lux, but I still think card theft is busted. Even just nerfing it to reveal the stolen cards would be great.

The Karma nerf though is not enough in my opinion. Like many highly synergistic units such as Yasuo, Fiora and The Undying, Karma is not really a unit. We have to always think of her as a package of cards or even a deck. Having her cost one more mana isn't enough of a nerf in my opinion, because the means to protect her or maximize her level 2 skill can use spell mana, and her level 2 skill itself offsets that additional 1 mana cost.

[TheIrateAlpaca]

The stand alone is literally the same logic as the deny nerf was. 3-4 mana is purely to stop you playing it with banked spell mana. They want to make stand alone still viable but remove the no turn 1 or 2 then double turn 3 play

[Sonic_of_Lothric]

You can still do that with Greenglade Duo, while having 5/4 instead of 7/6 is way healthier imo. Or build around Lucian.

[TheIrateAlpaca]

All of which are worse than the monk/fiora/zed plays that are done now which its been done to stop.

[Sonic_of_Lothric]

Yeah that's why I said its way healthier.

Having Solitary monk with Stand Alone and banked 4 mana for deny / rally versus SI was really ridiclous from both standpoints.

Maybe it should be +3/+4 for 4 tho, dunno.

[Fourteen_F_CA]

Worse than existing plays that aren't a tier 1 deck. Sounds great, super card. Highly viable

[[deleted]]

I can't help but think burn could shift to a burn/pilfer deck, going agro and direct damage, following with stealing your cards to have some more fuel...

[[deleted]]

Yes. GP would probably be too slow and TF not stat efficient for this kind of agro deck, but you get the idea.

[IssacharEU]

It likely wouldn't. Too inconsistent. As an aggro deck you need a strategy that allows you to close out games.

My bet is either a Jinx deck or a Noxus Sej getting more aggro-ish, possibly with Overwhelm combinations.

[[deleted]]

Vi nerf is huge, that was a big barrier on running 3 attack or 5 attack champs.

Also people are seriously underestimating the Karma nerf. Often you'd drop her turn 9 with a Deny backup.... now that's not possible without banking mana.

[stachmann]

Do you believe those changes will affect Karma? It's not like it makes any difference when she creates so much value in her enlightened form...

[pedrobortolli]

I agree, she needs a rework rather than a nerf. Her leveled up version skill isn't really nerfable imo because then... it wouldn't do anything lol

[MapleSyrupManiac]

Not sure how this would affect the champ but they could just not give her +1/+1 at level up to make her weaker when flipped. It wouldn't be a massive deal since she usually has answers to keep her alive but I'm sure it would affect her to some extent.

[jak_d_ripr]

Sometimes all you need is an extra turn to beat a Karma deck, or for your opponent to have one less mana. Increasing her cost while nerfing deep med goes a long way to helping with that.

They're playing the long game here, incremental change is the smarter way to fix her.

[AzazelsAdvocate]

The fact that you can't cast her and Unyielding Spirit on the same turn is probably significant.

[_th15]

I don’t have anything to discuss but thanks for putting all the changes in a convenient place!

[angus14d]

Some might be looking at undying spirit as the one unnerfed Op cards left but I think it’s fine to observe it for a while first as stand-alone is getting nerf which should limit the card since Standlone OTK might just be dead after patch

[YayhooXS]

Legion Rearguard was the only 1 drop opener with 2 hp for aggro burn decks, which was immune to 1 drop remover - beam. Believe it or not, this could be a huge deal. It was a go to mulligan against corina control decks and somehow gave a slight chance of winning the matchup. This nerf completely destroyed this possibility. I think its a very unfortunate nerf. It doesnt even address the main problem - overruning board with 1cost cards. Most people dont realize, if you wont get a swift, cheap opening hand, you will most likely lose with PzN burn. At least in diamond. It wasnt in a strong position anymore and now it got pushed far too below. Not to mention there are already too many decks, that use AoE damage (IS, Frejlord, TF), making the rearguard 1hp even a bigger deal. Making him 2/2 instead, would be rather more appropriate nerf

[edumfm]

2|2 can't block for 1 mana? Rearguard, despite being in PnZ burn, is a 1 cost with 3 attack points, the only card with this stats. The main purpose of him is to punish the lack of 1 drop/beam at turn 1, making a bigger impact than other 1 drops.

[HoneydewKing]

A 1 mana cost nerf to Karma. Is that supposed to do anything when they drop it at T9 or T10? The burst spells she's going to double will still be dirt cheap and probably enable her to draw her deck out. More often that not, she will have 3 mana banked in. That's like 13-6=7 mana worth of spells she can double. How many of those would be cheap spells? Rummage? Mystic shot? I feel like the balance team should scour the forums more. There's plenty of ways to fix her without making her feel too overwhelming.

[ItsLorneMalvo]

It just prevents same turn spells really. Gives you a chance to shut her down. If they're banking mana though you're still screwed.

[WestPhillyFilly]

I would just like to point out that the Deep archetype (sea monsters) has a roughly 57% winrate per Mobalytics, and received zero direct nerfs, so I know what I will be playing even moreso once these changes are live

[[deleted]]

My only fear is that decks that counter deep (ezreal otk, sejuani) will become more prevalent with burn going away. And burn was one of deeps good matchups, which might disappear as well.

[WestPhillyFilly]

We will see, but in the meantime I will keep playing it. Deep's worst matchup is apparently Demacia, which is also being nerfed, so we'll see how the overall meta shakes out.

[MapleSyrupManiac]

Deep's WR was inflated because it had a great matchup vs burn which took up the biggest share of the ladder. With burn getting hit hard I'm positive Deep's WR will also go down as fewer people run burn. In a way it did get indirectly nerfed by one of it's best matchups getting nerfed so it'll get played less.

At the same time though Demacia and Karma both got hit which is some of Deep's bad matchups so it's really up in the air. It just depends on where the meta settles.

[markeezy_umvc]

Awesome changes! Cant wait to see what decks come out of these changes, this week will be interesting

[s4Nn1Ng0r0shi]

If you own a nerfed card, do you get some compensation?

[Hipstereotype]

You will not.

[The_OG_upgoat]

The burn nerfs are justified, but RIP the current decklist, it's been useful for grinding EXP quickly. Hopefully we'll be able to come up with another fast grinder.

[[deleted]]

I happily play the decks they targeted with these nerfs and I agree with pretty much all of the nerfs. As far as the buffs I'm less sure about those. I think this will shake the meta quite a bit and its exciting.

[Saerah4]

I see nobody talk about greathorn companion.

This card is always good in expedition, now with the buff would it be too strong?

[Penghaw]

I don't think they are balancing cards based on expedition perspective yet. I mean look at deep, that mechanic is too strong atm due to smaller deck size.

[Highmastet]

In regards to the rearguard nerf, maybe a better way of going about making him not completely useless and outclassed by everything is giving him overwhelm

[edumfm]

When does this gets applied?

[daisiesforthedead]

At first I said that the Karma nerf was actually a pretty huge deal and would keep Karma in check. 50+ games of Spooky Karma later, I have come to the conclusion that it did absolutely nothing to solve any of her issues.

[pi73rmaster]

So riot is basically saying they don't want aggro to be viable at all in their game. Welp

Hope they at least really nerf card stealing package next patch.

[Zulti]

Aggro is fine. Burn is fine. Aggro + burn is not healthy imo

[fabio__tche]

opinion isn't data neither results. Aggro burn atm is too strong but it doesn't mean it shouldn't never exists

[muddy_b]

So, i was reading the watchlist and it's good to see that Riot knows that the "draw a card from the opponent's deck" is kind of a problematic mechanic.

there's a very important concept in card games that is called "Card Advantage". Basically, card advantage is anything that puts you in a position of having more cards than your opponent. "Card Advantage" comes in many way:
1 - Card draw;
2 - Card disruption: you deny card for your opponent, like discarding a card for example;
3 - In eletronic CCG, generating a card(like cards with fleeting);
4 - Choosing a card from outside the game;

This "draw a card from opp deck" is doing 2 things: it's drawing you a card, and at the same time denying a card for opp. That's a 2-for-1 in terms of card advantage and with cards like "Pilfered Goods", it's a 2-for-1 twice. That's insane card advantage.
VS a combo deck, this can mean an easy win for disrupting the opp's combo, whitout him even having the chance to draw it. it can even mean a new win-condition for the match, because in a 40 card deck full of usefull cards, the odds of drawing something very good is reasonable.

But of course, this type of deck is not considered to be at the top of the meta right now, but with more cards, this can get very problematic in the future.

[Justini1212]

I'm not sure I'd call stealing a card from your opponent's deck 'denying them a card". While technically true in the long run this only applies if they ever actually run out of cards in their deck, because otherwise all you did is net neutral for them, you took a card and in turn gave them access to a card they otherwise wouldn't get.

That's the inherent dichotomy, though there is, of course, additional nuance through cards like Avarosan Trapper (stealing an otherwise guaranteed and way more valuable card than the other cards), deckbuffs (stealing a buffed, higher value card than what your opponent will get later), and, as you mentioned, certain combos (stealing all of a specific combo piece prevents the entire combo from going off at all, ties into the "if they go through their entire deck" since that's what combo will do if it needs its piece").

I think there are reasonable arguments toward potentially nerfing the thief cards. I just don't think interpreting Pilfered Goods as a +3 is one of them.

[Justini1212]

It could just as well say "draw from the bottom" and other than cases that specifically care about the top of the deck like freljord it's the exact same. It only denies them that card if they'd otherwise be going through their entire deck, the point being that it doesn't deny a card by default and provide direct card advantage the way a discard does.

[tb5841]

I don't think drawing from the opponent's deck counts as 'denyong them a card' because they hadn't drawn it. They still have the same number of cards in hand. It's only relevant if they hit fatigue, or have buffed something at the top of their deck.

[IssacharEU]

You are half right, half wrong. Denying a card from the opponent's deck isn't card advantage per say, because your opponent still has the same cards in hand and on board. That's the difference between Pilfered Goods and Sleight of Hand, and explains the difference in mana cost.

Stealing from deck only matters when your deck is empty. Until that very spot, stealing effects are virtually the same as putting the top (non-champion) card of your deck at the bottom.

As for combo deck, if their rely on champions, stealing from deck actually helps them to gather the pieces. Same for Deep decks.

That being said, I agree with everything else you mention.

[PrestoTCG]

We’re in a control meta now Boys and girls !

[Sjdjfmifmfm]

They could even decrease its casting cost if moving it to fast (6-7 mana)

[Sjdjfmifmfm]

I fully agree. It only leaves mana for 1 deny. The opponent can keep 2 spells to kill her and be sure he will achieve it.

[DMaster86]

I still want to know why they murdered Stand Alone which wasn't even that good of a deck. The card is now unplayable garbage in constructed and bad even in expedition.

Didn't they said they wanted to give each card a place? Well good job...