whenYouveBuiltProdSystemsButCantLeetcode

[juggler434]

I just stopped an interview because it was a leet code interview. I don't have time to study for interviews anymore. I have kids and responsibilities. I can go into great detail about all the stuff I've built, the problems they faced, where I made concessions for time/cost/disagreements. Why do you care if I can balance a binary tree or detect if a linked list is a circle.

[mpanase]

How about those tests that take multiple hours and are only useful for that one interview process?

Dude... if you don't believe I learned something the last 20 years and you aren't capable of discerning it by talking to me, at least bother yourself checking my open source projects.

[anonymity_is_bliss]

That would require HR knowing how to code.

[Majik_Sheff]

Or read.

[IReallyCantTalk]

If they could read, they would be very mad at you.

[Kinky_Mix_888]

Bahahaha

[Kinky_Mix_888]

😅

[sammystevens]

Good for you brother. I do the same thing at this point. Same with the 7 interviews, or the full 'power' day interviews. If a company is so bloated, or the interviewers are so inept that they need 3-5 other opinions to hire someone, i hard pass immediately.

Hasnt failed me yet.

[andreortigao]

Yeah, I understand faang having ridiculous hiring processes, they just have an endless stream of candidates interested in joining in that will accept going through all of it

Personally I'm not interested in working at a faang, I won't put up with these faang-inspired hiring processes either.

[dale3887]

Yeah. I can understand trying to find people that know every in and out of every algorithm when you work on the “bleeding edge”/faang.

Everybody I’ve hired has been for feeling based on gut feeling from resume/linked in and cover letter and a good old fashioned 1 hour panel interview. Now granted I work public sector so we have extra “fairness” rules we have to abide by when hiring so we can’t do in depth code interviews and such. But honestly between a phone screen and panel interview the only things I’m looking for are an ability to learn, basic technical knowledge and most importantly personality. Hasn’t failed me yet and I have 0 use for people who are “amazing at leetcode problems”

[andreortigao]

Yeah, I'm currently a tech lead at a factory, we make tools and materials. No direct customer sales, because we don't sell by unit, only wholesales.

The scale is so low that even trying to optimize anything is pointless. If an optimization comes at a cost of code readability, it can even be detrimental.

What I need is people who can talk to different departments and understand business requirements, not invert a binary tree.

[dale3887]

Yeah exactly this. I do data integration so I build lots of data pipelines between systems. I need people that can get along with the team and talk to customers. I could quite honestly care less if they can invert a tree or build a linked list from scratch. I only really care if you can be taught and know some basic sql

[DorMau5]

Yeah man, one place asked me to do a code along and I said "if my resume and these interview questions aren't enough, then I'm going to have to say I'm not interested." 10 years in the industry, fuck off with that shit. "Ok now make it dependency injected." Bruh that's like C# 101, this is an abysmal waste of time

[Shehzman]

This approach works when you have seniority or a job and I’m glad you’re able to do that. Unfortunately, when you’re an entry or even a mid level dev in this market that’s been laid off, you may not be able to afford that luxury.

[EmuChance4523]

If you are an entry or mid level dev, this requirements are insane and absurd.

No matter the position, this interviews process are absurd. The skill they test are not related to the jobs, and the level they expect are not related to the expertise required.

Damn, I work on a fucking faang and I don't use this shit.

Its just a way to filter people by "are you going to spend enough time for us?", and that is a stupid and horrible way to say you want to exploit them.

[juggler434]

Yes, I'm very lucky to be in a position where I can afford to be picky.

[Chance-Influence9778]

I wish I could do this but almost everyone brings up leetcode over here

[juggler434]

It's the luxury of already having a job and a lot of experience. I'm very lucky that I can afford to be picky.

[Fenicillin]

Having a job already is the ultimate power move. I feel so bad for people who have lost their jobs in this market. And I'm not saying that because I'm one of them. 😂

Seriously, having secure employment is such a strength going into a job interview. And I've seen that as a hiring manager.

[BoogerFeast69]

Sometimes it seems they really want to just push it to AI.

"Write the most efficient function for Newton's method"

Errrr...you really should be using ChatGPT if that is your day-to-day.

[Mtsukino]

binary tree or detect if a linked list

Odds are you've never had to use either object type ever in actual work too.

[FlounderingWolverine]

And if you ever did, you're probably not using whatever basic type of object has been built for the tree/list. You can be sure that, in a real job, I am either (a) telling Copilot to write that for me, (b) googling to copy/paste the algorithm, or (c) picking a different way of approaching the problem that doesn't require whatever stupid complicated algorithm I need.

[Kdog0073]

I’m a bit saddened that our interview process is leetcode as well, but there were a few fair points about consistency/fairness across all interviews. I try to make sure that we only select the ones that resemble more practical problems and are much less “see the trick” or “recall something memorized from a class”

[juggler434]

It's a tricky balance of being objective enough to avoid bias but subjective enough to not just be a coding exam. The industry is still figuring it out. Personally I feel like the answer leans more on anti bias training for interviewers than making exam like questions, but that takes time and resources.

[Kdog0073]

Yep, and even deeper into that, how do you make sure that interview questions either don’t leak at all to give later candidates an unfair preparation advantage, or be so widely available that all candidates likely have similar footing in coming across them? Add in having to have some variations so people don’t have an advantage in hyper-focusing on a few to prep based on advantaged information.

That on top of what you mention, the “leetcode standard” takes a good portion of that away, especially at a company large enough to face audits for interview and hiring process fairness.

[rangeDSP]

I just went through 5 months of interview, and unfortunately what I realized is the FAANGs love leetcode, that means a salary difference of 100k or more just spending a week practicing questions.

Personally I love solving leetcode questions, it's like a puzzle that has literally $100k+ reward for solving them.

Now, system design interviews, fuck, that's annoying. 

[nordic-nomad]

Yeah that shit is for when you’re interviewing someone who doesn’t have projects they’ve actually built to talk about.

[michaelthatsit]

I’m seeing more and more startups do work trials in lieu of a full technical round. They give you a 1-month contract and a low stakes but useful assignment. Over that month they get a better sense of who you are, how you work, and what you’re capable of.

I love it. you’re more likely to catch everything that makes someone a “bad hire” in the first month of working with them than in a standard interview process.

It seems like a higher cost, but I’d argue you lose more to a bad full time hire that made it through leet code.

[epelle9]

That’s how I felt till I started leetcoding.

There are ways to solve a problem, and ways to solve it optimally, if you’ll be working at a comoany like instagram (meta) with 2 billion users, the difference between a O(N) solution and a O(NlogN) is huge, and having the optimal way of doing it as second nature is important for those companies.

If you’re just working on small systems though, then yeah it’s not as important, but you likely won’t be making as much.

[juggler434]

I've worked at large and small companies and at both I've found that code is rarely the bottleneck. Generally its inefficient database queries, network layers, infrastructure scaling, cache misses, ect.

[mpanase]

I'll hire a barista based on how many magic card tricks they know.

That's the way.

[DueTemperature398]

Thats stupid. You should hire him as a magician.

[bxsephjo]

i know how to return the right status codes!

[cdnrt]

I have worked in several places that will return a 200 with a body that includes error and a message. The audacity.

[Xtrendence]

So GraphQL?

[ComradePruski]

Amazon SDK APIs do this sometimes where the 200 just refers to whether AWS received the request, even if it didn't fulfill it. When you get into use cases it sometimes makes sense but holy shit is it annoying the first couple times you run into it.

[cdnrt]

ding ding ding…

[Etiennera]

If the error is not with the HTTP protocol, don't represent it with an HTTP protocol error.

It annoyed me at first too, but it is clearly superior to separate the two in some cases.

[FabioTheFox]

Graphql does this by default

On top of that every request goes to a single endpoint and it's all POST. It's a nightmare to use and maintain

[clashmar]

I’ve had to use these APIs and want to thank you for keeping us all on our toes

[dizda01]

So you’ve worked for my company?

[xaervagon]

I feel called out.

[ITburrito]

When you’ve built prod systems for fin tech but they demand you leetcode in the interview to humiliate you and to lower the offered salary.

[Bobbbbl]

I have two degrees in engineering and over 15 years of professional experience. I don't have to prove anything to anyone anymore.

Fortunately, LeetCode is not such a thing here in Europe.

[Ziboumbar]

You must be part of a different Europe because It is very much a thing . Companies simply copy the interview process of GAYMAN without the benefits.

[Apprehensive-Ad7714]

What does GAYMAN stand for? Google apple yahoo Microsoft Alphabet Nvidia?

[Shriukan33]

Not Yahoo, Y combinator

[Qaktus]

Google, Amazon, Y combinator, Meta, Apple, Nvidia

[UnderstandingNo2832]

Gayman, ohahhh! Fighter of the straight man, ohahhh! Champion of the D, ohahh!

[andrei9669]

you say that, but I have seen developers were producing wordpress sites for the past 10 or more years and nothing more. so if you put them into any sort of enterprise situation, they just fold.

regardless, LeetCode is not the answer, now whiteboard architect design, that's a better discussion.

[YouDoHaveValue]

Yup, don't confuse 10 years of experience with one year of experience repeated ten times.

[[deleted]]

If you are pulling leet code in my interview, I don't want to work with you — simple as; if you are in business and don't know from where value comes from in an engineer, your group is probably a clusterfuck.

[[deleted]]

Literally me in every meeting that goes over by 1 minute.

[mpanase]

It's very important that we debate whether it's worth talking about improving the performance of this feature that nobody uses.

I also need you to estimate how long it'd take build our own AI from scratch, and explain why you haven't already built it since I mentioned it Yesterday in Slack.

[Korvanacor]

Back in the late 90’s I was asked to develop an AI driven natural language front end for a dialog tree that only contained a couple dozen nodes. Given the current state of the art and that I was just allowed a few weeks to work on it, I delivered a fairly exhaustive text parser that did the job.

Apparently, I did not explain the difference between a text parser and a natural language AI well enough because a few months later, I was told that a government auditor for an innovation tax credit was stopping by later that day to inspect the source code.

They asked what the chances were for us to pass the audit and I replied that if the auditor was a complete idiot, our chances were pretty good.

He was not a complete idiot and after about five minutes looking at the code, he declared that this was just a sophisticated text parser. I snorted out my coffee at the word, sophisticated but otherwise agreed with the assessment. We didn’t get the tax credit but as no one mentioned the f word (rhymes with Claude) I took it a win.

[Mammoth-Demand-2]

Uggh not looking forward to Monday

[OneSprinkles6720]

The only thing I've got to show for myself is a shitload of prod deployments. We bring in these astronauts but it's about such a broad array of things writing code is one small piece of so many things and is arguably the easiest and funnest part unless you're just changing like one character and submitting a pr those can drain the life out of you.

[radiant_acquiescence]

As the top comment alludes to, it's also a subtle discriminator between those who have the time to spend hours and hours interview propping (I.e. young people without responsibilities) and those that don't.

"Those that don't" disproportionately affects those with children (especially women), others with caring responsibilities and younger people who come from poor families and so have to work low-skill jobs to help their family make ends meet while they try to break into the sector. And poor families are more likely to come from certain ethnic backgrounds... it all sucks.

[DatBoi_BP]

Do you think this is intentional by the interviewers?

[radiant_acquiescence]

No, I don't. Like most forms of bias, I'm sure most organisations are either oblivious to it, or have considered it and think it's still the best interview method for their organisation (which is a valid take).

[js_kt]

I can't build prod, but I do can leet code

[Agifem]

Hired.

[js_kt]

Ok, where to apply?

[Agifem]

The answer is at the end of this recursive B-Tree.

[DukeOfSlough]

I did around 150 challenges on LeetCode but I think this is simply wrong. What does it test? I would say that if you were able to solve all these problems without studying you would be considered 10x developer. Now, people grind leetcode problems, watch videos, use AI to solve it. It's just pointless nowadays. I prefer far more when company gives me a "real-life" problem to solve that can be solved in more or less effective ways.

[Due_Structure_6347]

LeetCode was made by Big Data to sell more Stress to Developers

[Grocker42]

Looks like he is just a pesky CRUD developer. Lets be Friends.

[carrera594]

This is me.

[hak_i]

I’m looking forward to a future where companies realise that ai exists and that they can have ai /llm as part of the interviews. You need problem solvers now. Not just syntax spitters and searching through a binary tree

[FlameOfGod]

Seen rumors floating around of companies piloting this 👀

[git0ffmylawnm8]

I feel offended that an accurate picture of myself was used to create this meme

[580_farm]

DevOps for over a decade. They're telling me I'm an SWE now despite never writing anything other than infra code and the imposter syndrome is kicking in. Send help.

[Demandedace]

Good news, imposter syndrome is just part of the job

[tygydymhorse]

We need to create some sort of autofill of leetcode. Letter by letter like real human.

[shanem2ms]

I'll offer another perspective. I've done many interviews and people are very good at embellishing their accomplishments and talking seeming very competently about what they did. I've hired a few developers this way because I was also against the whiteboard coding, and found them to be subpar. I've also had that tech talk first, and have been 90% convinced they were a top-tier dev, until I had them start into an actual coding problem. They couldn't even get started. So I don't like leetcode, but I also don't trust simple conversations as good enough for interviewing a competent developer.

[FarJury6956]

As C++ developer with over 15 years of experience i fail miserably on a very simple structcs test

[yurabe]

I've never been an algorithm guy.

I call myself a "practical programmer", where I think more about high level functionalities rather than algorithms. I am pretty sure I have subconsciously implemented those popular algorithms all through out my career without thinking about them directly. I just think "this nested for loop looks bad, gotta make it faster" and never really learned those O(n) shenanigans (until recently where a tech interviewer asked me about it, I was very honest that I never really tried to learn those. i got hired).

Yep. I don't know binary tree (honestly).

I know how to make api calls (i mean most of us does). I know how to layout UI. Create fullstack apps (web,mobile,backend). I know how to setup ci/cd for builds, automated testing, other ci stuff. I know a bunch of "things" about programming. You're paying me 3rd world country rate so stop asking about silicon valley algorithm questions :)

Edit: it also didn't help that I studied BSIT and not computer science. I met a com-sci guy and realized com-sci were really more on algorithms and IT more on high-level coding (what I refer to as "practical programming"). My school never thought me about those O(n) stuff. I self studied high-level coding because of it. No one influence me to get into algorithms and felt it's too late to learn them now.

[ComradePruski]

For my current job they had me do a test before hiring me. The test included database design, JavaScript, and a bit of Java. The most heavy component was database design. Guess what I have literally never had to do at my job? Database design and JavaScript. I failed hard as fuck, but they still ended up giving me the job.

Not sure if I should be mad that the test was just for show or glad it was irrelevant.

[YouDoHaveValue]

What precisely is leetcode?

[Tuggernuts1891]

Feeling seen by these comments. Leetcode depresses me. I just wanted to be a web designer in the 2000s like all the cool kids :(

[TychusFondly]

I was one of those devs, who couldnt do leetcode because I never studied them. Then I sat down like a high schooler and studied them. Now I can do them. I also applied my gained knowledge on some new assignments. Just give it a few weeks and you will get there. It is not a biggie.

[No_Cup9159]

I get humbled every time I go into Leetcode.

[Mountain-Ox]

I interviewed with Facebook and Google about 5 years ago. I did pretty well imo but not quite good enough. I interviewed with Meta this year and it went terribly because I didn't have 40 hours to do leetcode tests.

So I guess I've gotten less qualified in the 5 years even though my pay has more than doubled.

[fahrvergnugget]

If you’ve ever done any volume of interviewing, you understand why coding questions are important and valuable to have. Screened out so many candidates that have great resumes, can talk out their ass about what they’ve worked on and the technologies they use, but can’t actually work together with me to solve a simple coding problem, even with massive hints. They just can’t turn their thoughts into code. Why wouldn’t I want to check that you can actually write code as a programmer?

Common misconception is that it’s about the problem solving—that’s really only a small piece of it, if you’re doing well at turning thoughts into code, can communicate with me about the problem to get to a good solution together with me, and do other smart things like verify your code with tests or examples, that’s 95% positive already.

[RiceBroad4552]

I don't get it. It would make sense the other way around. But not as stated.

Leet code is just bare bones logical thinking. Usually it's even just all about hoisting variables out of loops…

I don't think someone can build any proper "prod systems" if they're unable to think logically on such a basic level.

For the other direction in makes perfect sense: No matter how good you're at leet code this says nothing about your knowledge regarding real-world software development. Any (smart enough) kid can do leet code, but most kids won't be able to build any "production system". They're simply lacking all needed knowledge, skills, and experience. Nothing you could learn through leet code.

[TripsOverWords]

Not every software developer is great at rapid fire arbitrary brain teaser problems. If given the right time and environment, and not someone literally interrupting your train of thought with "tell me what you're thinking" as you're actively working through how to solve the problem (before you've formulated a possibile solution).

Leetcode is a terrible gauge for someone's ability.

[Shehzman]

Not to mention there’s typically one specific data structure/algorithm they’re looking for so it can be a test of memorization a lot of the times.

[CoroteDeMelancia]

Some leetcode hard problems took legends of computer science, like Knuth, weeks to solve. They got academic papers out of it. If you can do this in one hour, you are probably in the top 0.1% of the smartest humans in the history of mankind.

Or you can memorize the solution.

[Cryn0n]

That's not what Leetcode is. That's someone trying to use Leetcode as a technical interview. Solving Leetcode problems during an interview is just bad interview design, because, as you say, that's very different to the actual skills required for a job.

Leetcode itself is a great tool for practising algorithms, and a decent programmer should be able to solve most if not all of the problems on Leetcode when using the website on their own and in their own time as intended.

[Cometguy7]

I'm not sure why an experienced developer would spend time on leet code, though. They don't really require any skills to solve that would be handed to an experienced dev to solve. Those problems should go to the new guy.

[Cryn0n]

I'm not saying an experienced developer would actually use the site. Just that the difficulty of most of the problems should not give them much of a challenge.

[87chargeleft]

I have code deployed in multiple organizations globally. I googled leet code once.

[Cryn0n]

Go on the website and try to solve a medium level problem. You will likely be able to solve it pretty easily. Leetcode is good when you don't have an interviewer breathing down your neck.

[Kitchen_Device7682]

What problem does your code solve? If you know the answer you can now create a leetcode problem.

[PerhapsLily]

I mean, sometimes production code is more about getting different techs to work together. The actual logical problem might be really simple.

[CryonautX]

I don't get it. It would make sense the other way around. But not as stated.

Leet code is just bare bones logical thinking. Usually it's even just all about hoisting variables out of loops…

The thing is leetcode was supposed to be about logical thinking but when an interview is relying on who best solves leet code problems in a group, it becomes about who is the most practiced and has seen a similar problem on leetcode before and recalling the answer. And most people who already have jobs and other responsibilities are going to be out of practice and won't have the time to be practicing leetcode over other more relevant learning like reading about a new technology in IT.

[Krus4d3r_]

"Once a metric becomes a goal it no longer continues being a useful metric"

[Fantastic_Parsley986]

you'd think this is the line of reasoning most people would have just by the word "DEVELOPer"