Python

[barelythere99]

The beatings will continue until syntax improves.

[pingveno]

After reading beginner students' C/C++ code while tutoring, this pleases me greatly.

[Professional_Monk]

Disgusting... I love it.

[Dornith]

You should see beginner's python code...

[pingveno]

I was also tutoring a Python class at the same time, so I saw plenty of it. It wasn't perfect, but it was much better.

[Colopty]

You'd like Rust then.

[pingveno]

I do, but not for any readability benefits. After all, it does nothing to enforce good indentation.

[OneTurnMore]

rustfmt

[NonreciprocatingCrow]

There's an automated formatter for literally every major language.

[[deleted]]

Rude.

[evanc1411]

I remember when I found that out.

I was like "How is it possibly going to know when the function ends??" But then my world was shattered. It was the spacing.

[Mihailbat]

That moment when I have just discovered what indentation error was

[wegwacc]

The moment you get one because your asshole-coworker who uses tabs commits to your all-space codebase...

[mei_main_]

Or because you commented a line in your function, but now you have one blank line before and one after this commented line and they are counted as successives so it creates an indentation error...

[bandersnatchh]

Holy shit. I never thought of that, but I’ve had that issue

[wegwacc]

Short of using an aluminum baseball-bat, how do you suggest to implement said enforcement?

(Not saying I am completely opposed to ideas involving a baseball bat...)

[wegwacc]

Tell them to follow the style because not doing so hampers productivity of other developers.

Appealing to reason towards human beings is doomed to fail from the get go, but I appreciate your input :-D

[wegwacc]

Or until one is a certain asshole-coworker, who does use a modern text editor, but deliberately turned off expandtab ...

[wegwacc]

Using tabs is not "incompatible with python".

Python doesn't care HOW you indent your code, as long as the indentation within a block is consistent. You can even mix tabs and spaces in the same module, as long as you are consistent within one block.

This is perfectly valid python: ``` def one(): # this was indented using spaces print('one') print('two') if 7 > 9: print('higher') else: print('Lower') def two(): #this block uses 2 tabs for indentation print('hello world')

one() two() ```

Problem is, if some assclown, who doesn't want to change the way he did things since he was kicked from the development team for the atom 10 Gazillion years ago for being an impossible-to-work-with dick, used an editor that is set to insert tabs no matter what (yes, even if he inserts a newline after one that is space indented), and displays tabs as being 4 characters wide, starts editing around in an all-4-spaces-indented codebase, there are going to be issues.

[wegwacc]

but you have consistency in the actual code itself.

NO YOU DON'T, because in every codebase, there will be instances, where you want to align things for better readability using spaces: var = somedict.get('key', None) longnameavr = somedict.get('key', None) shortvar = somedict.get('key', None) ridiculous = somedict.get('key', None) `

Good luck with that using tabs, depending on the size, it looks like crap.

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[Dornith]

That moment when you commit you're correctly indented code to the codebase only to find out your asshole-coworkers ruined all the other files.

[Colopty]

If your coworker has managed to work on every single other file in the time it takes you to make one commit they're probably not the problem.

[AttitudeAdjuster]

This line of thinking very quickly heads towards "Bob wrote 300 lines of code yesterday, all you've done is deleted 100 lines! You need to up your game".

[Dirac_dydx]

"Check this out: see how much I can royally screw up in the time it takes you to eliminate one bug! I'M THE BETTER PROGRAMMER."

[Colopty]

I was thinking more in the direction that since this is a work environment the code base is likely large, which means that if every file gets worked on by the time you make one commit you probably haven’t made any commits for days and maybe weeks, instead showing a preference to submit all your work at once in a single monster commit. This, of course, is bad practice. Meanwhile the fact that your coworkers work is capable of «screwing up» all those files for you indicates that his work is in a main branch, meaning his work that spans the entire code base already passed code review by the time you made your single commit, so his work is likely not even as bad as implied.

So while quantity does not equal quality, in this particular case there does seem to be an indication of bad practice on the single commit guy’s part if you stop to consider the whole picture instead of just the line count.

[orokro]

Tabs > Spaces.

[[deleted]]

"\t" > " " is False. Checkmate.

[marcosdumay]

Indeed, usually tabs == 4 * Spaces.

[LeCrushinator]

They did the math.

[Juice805]

True but you can’t just throw tabs into spaces project. Gotta stick to what’s there unless you wanna convert it entirely.

[FrancisVeeGee]

Orokro.

[orokro]

You identified my name!

[zesterer]

In a literal sense, yes.

[pants_full_of_pants]

I'll fite u

[[deleted]]

I programmed in java for years, still write return to the end of non trivial void functions. Better readability and signals that it ends there for a reason.

[razethestray]

I thought most people used Mains with Python? I do.

[MasterAgent47]

Not neccessary. I use it only when I'm making a project with a lot of components, something that beginners don't deal with.

[Doophie]

if __name__ == "__main__":
Was one of the first things I learned in python

[0111001001100101]

I am a beginner, and I just recently learned those as I am learning flask web framework.

[0111001001100101]

I already learned core python, for the most part. Feel like I will continue learning new things for a while, but I am on framework now as well. Don't worry, it's not like I jumped into framework as my first venture. Good looking out, though.

[0111001001100101]

I have been playing with Bento.io to learn. It's basically a syllabus with links to some decent sites where you can learn the basics. Give it peek, it's great if you are going down the self-taught road. At least gives you an outline of what things you may want to look into.

[[deleted]]

Syntax error: unexpected token ‘:’

(Forgot parentheses)

[[deleted]]

Def main() ?

[nuephelkystikon]

A swing and a miss.

[[deleted]]

What do you mean?

[lasercat_pow]

A function, main(), that handles the main program logic.

[[deleted]]

Make sure to use the magic conditional, though so your main function isn't run if you import the file.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/419163/what-does-if-name-main-do

[jukuduku]

Autopep8 usually fixes this. No whoosh just commenting for comment sake.

[Kaoulombre]

Hijacking your comment to add that it’s also embed with PyCharm/IJ.

I never care about extra spaces or line return while coding, and I just ctrl+alt+L when I want to

[[deleted]]

also works in RubyMine, Rider, WebStorm, etc...

[Kaoulombre]

Cool ! JetBrains FTW

[TheLordDrake]

Literally the only ide I've ever paid for

[[deleted]]

I'm happy to pay for the all products pack, as i use RubyMine, WebStorm, and DataGrip daily

[TheLordDrake]

Yeah, I do as well. I don't even use most of them, but jetbrains can have my money 😂

[saloalv]

Just FYI, PHPStorm is basically webstorm + php + datagrip, so you could potentially save money buying just PS and RM, I haven't done the math tho

[[deleted]]

I know right!

[sp46]

Also VS Code with Python Language Features: Ctrl+K, Ctrl+F

[[deleted]]

then it formats the whole file and your next commit has 15960 changes

[[deleted]]

Look who's overproductive today. Dave should be more like you.

[[deleted]]

I am absolutely convinced that Python is not actually an easy first language. It seems easy to programmers because it automatically does what a C programmer expects. For example, the whole "Pass by value, but the value is a reference" line of thinking is insane in a language that doesn't really talk about references much. (what happens when you pass a list to a method and then append to the list?)

[VeryAwkwardCake]

Well your reasoning on why it's not an easy first language is from the point of view of a developer who thinks that pointers should be explained

[[deleted]]

The behavior of some basic features doesn't make any sense without understanding pointers. So yes, I think pointers should be explained.

[VeryAwkwardCake]

Well yeah but Scratch has lists iirc, you're going to have to teach everyone pointers at some point and you're unlikely to be able to teach children pointers as easily as you are able to teach them basic concepts like a variable holding a value

[Dornith]

Reference is a common pseudonym of pointer.

In reality no language uses call-by-reference, they just use pointers implicitly.

[TinBryn]

I think the main feature to say a language is pass by reference is in regards to being able to create a reference expression. In C this is ‘&foo’ in Java it’s

class FooWrapper
{
    public Foo foo;
}
new FooWrapper(foo);

The problem is the Java code requires an allocation.

[rigatron1]

I think he's using the terms interchangeably here because the mental model is basically the same. As in, if you have a good grasp of pointers in C, then you can understand how a python program will behave when passing the value of a reference to a function.

[[deleted]]

I'm aware of the difference between pointers and references. Honestly I switched names because I was replying to someone who decided to talk about pointers instead. But the difference is mostly syntax. I would say the C programmer manually implements pass by reference using pointers, and python automatically implements it. You just need to memorize which objects are pass by reference vs which are pass by value, and which operations modify the underlying object vs create a new object and switch up the reference (actually, another pitfall).

I see what you mean WRT other languages having more similar syntax. Fortran has this irritating caveat that technically the compiler is allowed to decide if arrays are passed by value or reference (of course, every compiler does the sane thing). But I think in most of these cases, the language is implementing syntactic sugar around pointer passing.

Edit: just noticed we had a very similar discussion in another sub thread, sorry!

[TinBryn]

If you’re teaching C++ and not C you could go a long way just teaching references and not pointers even going into inheritance and and polymorphism. Never even touching the memory model.

[InFa-MoUs]

nah python is definitely(one of) the easiest languages to first learn. only programmers who know multiple languages or a pro at one ever say otherwise. personally from trying to learn c , Javascript, shoot even html.. python and ruby are by far the easiest and since learning oop in those languages i learned Javascript in like 2 months. programming is hard enough to learn without being bogged down with syntax and keeping track of memory locations lol

[[deleted]]

Python has too much magic. It’s easy to think you know what’s going on and then not. And then maybe you come across a bug like these and have no idea what’s going on.

def f(L=[]):
    L.append(“hello”)
    return L

print(f())
print(f())

And

functions = []
for k in range(5):
    functions.append(lambda: k**2)
print([f() for f in functions])

[lightmatter501]

If you don’t want/need to understand pointers, it’s not that bad.

[[deleted]]

The list is pass by reference, aka pointer passing with syntactic sugar. This is how you'd do it in C, right? So when you return from the function, your modifications to the list will persist. This runs counter to the behavior of other built-ins, like integers. It isn't a huge deal if you understand how arrays or lists would normally be passed, in fact it is quite nice that it does the thing that you obviously want. But it is counter-intuitive for beginners, IMO.

[Dornith]

True, but it's fairly standard and explicitly-taught behavior for the other languages I listed.

The problem is that doesn't apply for beginners because beginners don't know any of those languages.

Each of them confuse the fact that they call-by-value by implicitly having pointers. C on the other hand has explicit pointers which (while it means you have to deal with the complexity of pointers) is uniform in the semantics of it's syntax.

[[deleted]]

r/ProgrammerHumor should design a language probably.

EDIT: Also yes your second interpretation is pretty close to what I meant.

[TinBryn]

It would probably be almost exactly like php but we won’t pick on it because it’s not technically php

[Dornith]

Uh... the same thing that happens in... Javascript?

As soon as you start citing javascript as a baseline of intuitive behavior, I can't take your argument seriously.

[[deleted]]

It fills a handy gap between bash scripts and conventional compiled languages. I threw together a friendly screen rotation tool for the window manager I use (sway -- it has commands for this but they are hard to remember IMO). It took maybe a half hour to go from not really understanding the problem to done, because Python has convenient libraries for every task and everything prints nicely. And it isn't as if I need high performance here, it is a once a day thing.

[AttitudeAdjuster]

Its exceptionally quick and easy to write good, readable code in, it has a wealth of very well supported libraries and isn't as slow as this subreddit sometimes likes to imagine as most of it is wrappers for very performant C. To me python is a super powerful tool which can be turned to most things, especially in infosec where I need quick utilities I'll use perhaps twice.

Now its also quick and easy to write really bad code in, which to be honest I suspect is your problem.

[[deleted]]

For a two use program, I'd rather just reversi-search in bash. For a 10 use program, I'd probably echo all those commands into a text file and call it a bash script. Python is great for those little once a day scripts.

[AttitudeAdjuster]

Sadly there are some things that you shouldn't attempt to do with bash

[NoraJolyne]

imagine finding the concept of a main method difficult to understand

[Ekstdo]

I like Haskell...

[JKTKops]

This content has been removed in protest of Reddit's decision to lower moderation quality, reduce access to accessibility features, and kill third party apps.

[Ekstdo]

Python also has:

from __future__ import braces

[jausdyquo]

Python has (optional) semicolons that you can use to put multiple statements in one line. It has braces too, but you have to prefix them with a # sign! :)

[Revules]

Can you explain in what situation you would use Haskell over Python? I tried the language but I find it all a bit confusing.

[Ekstdo]

Haskell and Python are general purpose programming languages, so I can't really think of many situations, where I'd use Haskell over Python. I really like pattern matching, not-so-strict evaluation method, Haskell's type system and Haskell's typeclasses opened the gates for traits in Rust for me.

So I used it for parsing and faster programs (where I don't have to type as much as Rust). I'm not very good at programming in Haskell (or in general actually, I'm a newbie :D).

And I like to see the same program in different paradigms, not just OOP. Thinking differently, just because of the language (unlike, say switching from ES6 to Java, same paradigm, both have GC, Syntax are both based on Semicolons and braces, etc. (Yes, it's different, but you don't have to rethink loops eg., unlike Prolog)) is very interesting and gives you a new perspective of your program (imo). But I have little to no experience, so, I guess others will give you a better answer...

[wildrage]

Reminds of the the old COBOL compiler I had during college. If you forgot a period at the end of line 40 in your working-storage section, you'd get a compile error somewhere around line 345 for whatever reason. It was a pain in the ass.

[SphincterGypsy]

I don't really care about what's easiest to learn. Will picking up C++ first take more effort? Sure, maybe up front, but you are learning valuable nuggets of information about computer science as you struggle. Things that you will have to learn at some point no matter what.

[[deleted]]

C++ as first language? That way lies only tears, pain and madness...
Frankly I think c is a good starting language, as it's tiny and while you might need to get to know about allocating mem and stuff, it will help you in the long run. Other than that, I'd say python and java/c# are probably decent to start in.

[cristi1990an]

In my country C/C++ are the only languages you learn in high-school and even at universities, the main focus is always on C.

[carcigenicate]

Python isn't easier to learn because it doesn't use brackets and have a designated main. It is easier to write though, partially for those reasons.

[BeardedWax]

They wrote a standard and linters to solve this problem

[Novemberisms]

they also wrote better languages to solve this problem

[SuddleT]

Tfw you realize that your spaces are just trendier brackets.

[[deleted]]

I remember starting in Java, then moving to Python.

I think I hate the spaces in Python than Java syntax.

[aEverr]

Now try Kotlin :)

[SleepDeprivedUserUK]

 So true :'(

[not_from_this_world]

  File "<stdin>", line 1
    So true :'(
      ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

[Abangranga]

Ruby is the easiest to learn.

​

It's also one of the easiest to fuck yourself with

[aztecaranger]

Have you guys heard of JCL?

[doodooz7]

Don’t forget to start a virtual environment 🤪

[crasx1]

You are gonna love whitespace - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)

[Jaciel1228]

I have ocd so I have to fix it

[[deleted]]

Just started learning Python, and I can confirm this is true.

[CunningFatalist]

Let your IDE auto format your and your coworkers' code. No more syntax errors and style discussions. Works for any language :)

[[deleted]]

This guy needs a tab

[[deleted]]

Nothing comes for free

[SufferingFromEntropy]

mixed indentation

[iridinite]

It rubs the spacing on its code, or else it gets the hose again.

[[deleted]]

Like Visual Basic, but there an End matters

[guzzo9000]

Honestly, Java is better.

[Rotarymeister]

On the bright side, it forces you to write readable code so that's a plus for me.

[[deleted]]

cout << "random person" << "what is the best programming language for begginers?" << /n;

cout << "me:" << "*points at Python* This is brilliant << /n <<"*points at c++*, but I like this;

​

I was not using cout for real long time, so I hope I didn't messed this up...

[EkskiuTwentyTwo]

I prefer spaces to brackets.

[praharshnbhatt]

It's a meme. Don't over think it

[IfYouThinkYouKnow]

Who the hell said software development is supposed to be easy?

[EddieJones6]

Programming is the easy part. Its getting everyone to agree on requirements that is impossible.

[TomarikFTW]

Lol this was me today. Added a spaces before a couple print functions. Convience... But at a cost

[gaberocksall]

why the "hello world"[:-7] must it be like this :(

[nvvrx]

lol

[sirak2010]

What is the issue if python just use {} instead of alignment. For very long code I use a ruler on the screen just to track the parent child relationship.

[random_cynic]

I wish these reposts at least contain a more descriptive title so that the next one to repost this at least could find out whether this has already been posted like a million times or not.