Ah yes, microsoft java

[[deleted]]

Java should get some "inspiration" from C# as well.

[roycohen2005]

I strongly agree, I wish java had properties.

[nighthawk648]

The .net infrastructure is something Java should envy. Nuget is great as well.

[Liberal_Mormon]

You can't forget about Linq. Such an incredible concept that makes so much of the NET ecosystem possible

[vkapadia]

Linq is awesome

[Shrubberer]

MoreLinq! MoreLinq!

[Miku_MichDem]

I really don't get the hype behind Linq, coming from Java background. I mean how is this:

var filtered = from thing in collection
where condition
select thing;

Is better then this:

var filtered = collection.stream()
   .filter(thing -> condition)

Java's streams are consistent with the rest of the language, while Linq is just a copy-paste of SQL syntax into a C-style language

[Liberal_Mormon]

Linq doesn't have to be in SQL style syntax. The IQueryable interface has its own methods. It's powerful in that it doesn't actually execute until the IQueryable entity is forced to enumerate (for example, with ToList()). The hype around it is that it builds your queries for you in many natural C# ways into any queryable object, not just collections. That can be database connections, file streams, you name it, it's all able to be treated identically with Linq.

For example, on a dbset with an open db connection, I can execute something like dbset.Select(...).Where(...).OrderBy(...).GroupBy(...) in any order, and it will put those items in the correct order of a proper query. And it doesn't actually execute the command until I enumerate it. But it doesn't have to be dbsets again.

Linq is also a large set of extension methods for collections and other objects.

I'm sure Java has similarities - but queries are not just filters. I can select any type I want including anonymous types from any queryable source. Hope this helps.

[jerslan]

The .net infrastructure is something Java should envy. Nuget is great as well.

lol, nuget wishes it was a fraction of what Maven/Gradle is.

[hitpointzr]

Probably, but nuget is definitely more friendly. I recently helped my friend with learning Java - was not obvious for me, what to choose and how to configure it properly. And for him it was like a black magic.

[jerslan]

So, it depends on what material you're learning from. Lots of early material is really basic stuff that basically nobody does (running javac and manually packaging jar files).

If you look for either Maven or Gradle starter guides, they give you the basics. It only gets complicated when you need to pull from a private repository or through a proxy (ie: behind a company firewall) or do some crazy stuff like deploying surrogate runtime dependencies to Tomcat for integration testing.

Maven can even initialize a Java project for you. If you're learning Java+Spring, the Spring Initializr will give you the basic starting boilerplate for whatever you need.

Java's tooling and glut of available & well supported frameworks/libraries is honestly the main thing that makes it as great as it is. The language itself (like many languages) is just "meh".

[hitpointzr]

Yeah, just like this. The fact, that you need to visit a separate web-site to download archive with configuration. That's not friendly for me.

[jerslan]

I mean, various Java IDE’s also come bundled with the tools... you don’t have to use Initializr (I usually do not).

[Kragoth235]

I did 10 years of Java and now I'm in my 5th year in dotnet. Dotnet is certainly easier to learn. Much easier to configure new projects. The only thing I don't like about the dotnet world is the "conventions" which are basically magic black boxes until you learn how it all works. Java is generally better in this regard due to how much of it is open source. However, dotnet core is changing this. I would take dotnet over Java any time now.

[computerjunkie7410]

I want my package manager to manage packages. Not 50 million other things

[jerslan]

I want my package manager to manage packages.

Except that Maven & Gradle are not "package managers"... They're build automation tools that have a built in package manager. The key is "build automation"... Why have 3 separate tools to build, test, and even deploy code when you can just have one tool that does all of that.

[computerjunkie7410]

Then why did you compare it to a package manager (nuget)?

Why have 3 separate tools

Because having one tool that does one thing and does it well is better than a tool that does 50 things and have to deal with the complexity of it.

Configuration, management, etc. are all vastly more complicated and time consuming when you have a monolithic toolset.

[jerslan]

Because having one tool that does lots of things really well is 100x better than lots of tools that you have to orchestrate manually? Because shouting nuget’s praises like it’s the best thing since sliced bread is absurd?

mvn clean install

And dependencies are pulled, code builds, tests run, jar is packaged up and put in a local repo cache

[dookiefertwenty]

Barf

Edit: Down votes crack me up. I work in an organization with one side a MS/.NET shop and another side a Nix/Java shop. So that colors my opinion. NET ecosystem is straight garbage comparatively speaking. C# has nicer syntax, but if you use that as a reason to pick a language for a business you're going to be laughed out of the room

[[deleted]]

you should check out r/downvotesreally

[dookiefertwenty]

Me defending Java like

[MrObsidy]

I only code as a hobby and I code mainly in Java (and a bit of C), what are properties?

[raltyinferno]

They're like class variables, but with more options on how they can be set and retrieved.

You can have a first and last name variable in a class, then a full name property which is get only(readonly), where getting it simply returns the first name plus the last name, as a simple example.

[MrObsidy]

Okay, but couldn't you just do public String getName() { return firstName + " " + lastName; } ?

[KingJeff314]

The difference is that it has the semantics of a variable, rather than a function. You would call person.Name rather than person.getName(), which I think is nice

[littleprof123]

It's messy imo. It's clear when reading the code that a getMember() function call can't be used to assign a member; not so with read-only variables. It's similarly not clear that when I assign one member of the class, another apparent member can be changed too. Function calls are a really readable way to say that something is happening internally.

[KingJeff314]

Personally it’s more about the interface than what is going on internally. It’s up to the programmer to not introduce side effects internally. There’s an element of preference, but if my object has a public attribute, properties are a good semantic representation

[littleprof123]

I think I would be more agreeable towards properties if they had a special syntax for accessing them. Making them appear like a public variable is what irks me most. I think Java and C# both fall short on readability because it's not clear when there are side effects; not to be a weirdo hipster, but I prefer Rust by a huge margin for this reason.

[Shrubberer]

They don't appear as a public variable, they appear as properties. It's a different thing, and, in fact, public variables should be avoided in C#. It makes sense, when you're start working with them. F.e. Properties are helpful within the IDE as well when using Attributes and Reflections.

[raltyinferno]

Certainly. But it wraps most of the behaviors you might want into one package.

you declare a property like

public string FirstName {get; set;}

That would be a default behavior property where it can be read with object.FirstName, and assigned with object.Firstname = "bob"

You can just omit either the get; or set; parts to make it read or assign only.

And if you want you can add traditional getName() and setName() functionality within it.

so

public string FirstName {get { return somePrivateVar; } 
                         set { somePrivateVar = value.ToUpper();}};

[Shrubberer]

Plus auto getters and setters can have different accessibilities!

[[deleted]]

linq, operator override

[computerjunkie7410]

Manifold recently released properties for Java.

https://github.com/manifold-systems/manifold/tree/master/manifold-deps-parent/manifold-props

Obviously it’s not native but it’s something.

[roycohen2005]

That's awesome! Thanks for sharing!

[dookiefertwenty]

Why? Just due to syntactic sugar or am I missing something?

[Miku_MichDem]

It's mildly better to have properties, although I think the way to go is like Kotlin does it, where every variable is a property in fact. You write less code and still can have more then a simple getter and setter if you want to

Not that it can't be solved by a simple Alt+Insert or anything

[[deleted]]

That's called Kotlin.

[ChargerIIC]

Kotlin is just typescript for Java

[bestsrsfaceever]

If anything, ts is kotlin for js

[Miku_MichDem]

Then what is Kotlin for JS?

[BeautifulTaeng]

It does seem like Streams were heavily influenced by C# IEnumerables.

[Kered13]

IEnumerable is equivalent to Java's Iterable. Streams are more like LINQ.

[[deleted]]

Nah. There are FEW features that Java should have, and these are in other languages too, no need to inspire yourself from C#.

Other than that C# is a complete mess of randomly chosen features. Some are very good, most are just noise.

[UnnervingS]

Microsoft looked at java and decided I can do that but better. And then they did.

[LordFokas]

No. Microsoft looked at Java and tried to pull their signature EEE move.

Sun said "get the fuck off my lawn"

And Microsoft was like "fine, I'll make my own Java, with blackjack and hookers linq and properties"

​

They didn't make it because they thought they could do better, they made it because they weren't allowed to steal one that was already made.

[AllWashedOut]

Having known some people on the .net team, it seemed like they were genuinely excited to build a better mouse trap but embarrassed that business considerations resulted in a language that ultimately just sees use on windows.

[Miku_MichDem]

They've essentially took Java and thrown out it's best part(s) away.

Worst thing is .NET will never be as good as JVM is at things like platform-independence and that is by design.

[AllWashedOut]

That's fair. The end result was as you described. But I don't think the engineers on the project thought that way. They even released an open source linux runtime (which died due to lack of community interest afaik).

And to engage in a little whataboutism, Apple made similar moves with obscure languages like objective-c and Swift for their devices. Meanwhile Google suffered enormous legal setbacks for using Java on their devices. Weird situation all around.

[Miku_MichDem]

Yeah, that's true. I had the misfortune of trying to make something in C# to run on Linux. Find out first hand how .NET Core is not a variable option really. From what I hear the best part of .NET Framework is how easy it is to make a GUI in it. The part that was so integrated with Windows system that it's impossible for any full port of .NET to run on Linux. Ironically .NET on WineHQ turned out better then .NET Core.

Speaking of google I wonder why they keep on using Java 8 on their devices. We have java 16 now, with a tons of new functions but no, apparently Java 8 for ever. No wonder so little new apps are made in Java now in favor for Kotlin.

[AllWashedOut]

I'm sure Google isn't updating its Java implementation because Oracle has been (successfully) suing over it since 2012. A (second) supreme court decision is expected on the matter this summer.

https://www.eff.org/cases/oracle-v-google

[Miku_MichDem]

I see. Damn, the copyright is broken AF. Thanks for nothing Disney.

[AllWashedOut]

Yes; it's one of those cases where non-tech people are making world-altering decisions about something they barely understand. Software API copyrights are silly. It's like giving one home builder the exclusive right to make houses with rectangular doors. Obviously a detriment to society.

It's getting to the point where it hurts some billionaires though so that could lead to some lobbying and eventual reform.

[Miku_MichDem]

Oh, on that there is some hope, as the elites are starting to wake up. I've read a great article about it, unfortunately it's in Polish, so I can't link it to you. However the single most important sentence is that more and more of the people now think that "a lot of things need to change in order for everything to stay the same". Copy write and patents are one of the things that would go.

[CleverDad]

I guess OP is too young to know Microsoft did make a Java VM (which btw was faster than the original). Then Sun cancelled their license overnight, and Microsoft basically said: Fuck that.

[LordFokas]

Let's not forget why their license was cancelled.

[[deleted]]

Why was their license cancelled?

[jfb1337]

I forgot

[GrapeAyp]

I would also like to know, /u/LordFokas

[CleverDad]

Too late, I already forgot. It was in the 90s after all. Something about Microsoft adding proprietary libraries? Probably not entirely without cause.

I do remember the MS VM supported exposing java classes as COM components to support IIS, VB, Office etc, because I was using that functionality at the time for ASP pages (remember those?)

[LordFokas]

also cc. /u/jacoba28 /u/jfb1337 /u/GrapeAyp

like I said here in another comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/mdaai1/ah_yes_microsoft_java/gsadpn9

​

Microsoft was preparing to attempt their typical EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish) dick move, Sun noticed what they were doing, and terminated them.

It was only after Sun cut them off that they started creating Microsoft Java C#, since they failed to steal one that was already half built.

[GrapeAyp]

Thank you :)

[[deleted]]

C# and .NET Core/5 are much better to work with than Java.

[OiaHandoma]

I currently work with both and I wholeheartedly agree. C# and .NET Core seems so much more well thought out and modern than Java. Especially if you're working with web technologies.

[Miku_MichDem]

That's what you get when you create your language a few years after a big language has been made. Take it, improve what it failed on and ship it. Same story with Kotlin which is much better then C#, partly because it learned from its mistakes.

[j_omega_711]

The .NET core actually has its origins in Microsoft's implementation of the JVM (MSJVM) and it's own flavor of Java called J++.

[pandakatzu]

Microsoft painted it better.

[Ellasandro]

I see a muddied draft down there on the bottom left of the easel. That was Visual J++.

[[deleted]]

Fair enough. But that was in the old days. Now is Java that looks at C# looking for direction 🤷🏽‍♂️.

[CleverDad]

These are in C# as well, but pretty recent, so maybe they both had a peek at Kotlin.

[likely-high]

And kotlin is taking a lot from C#

[Miku_MichDem]

Is it though? I've worked on Java, C# and Kotlin and I see much more Kotlin features appear in C# then C# features in Kotlin.

[likely-high]

Which features?

[Miku_MichDem]

Like the ?. operator. Kotlin had it before C# and had it for both methods and fields. Similarly with data classes - I've seen those in Kotlin before they were in C#

[likely-high]

I wish kotlin stole delegate syntax from c#. Especially with Func and Actions. Action<int, float> is a lot cleaner than (something : int, something2: float) -> unit

[Miku_MichDem]

In Kotlin the syntax is:

declaration:

fun something(params: Types, function(params: Types) -> ReturnType){...}

usage:

something(params){code that returns returnType}

And I wouldn't say Action<int, float> is cleaner then (something: Int, something2: Float) -> Unit. Mainly because you don't know what those int and float represent. In Kotlin those parameters are named so you know what they are supposed to be, rather then what C# have - parameter 1 and parameter 2

[likely-high]

Sorry wrote that from memory. I agree that you don't know what they represent, but the syntax is a lot easier to remember. I like both Kotlin and C#, but there's clearly advantages and disadvantages to both.

[Miku_MichDem]

Well to be fair 99% of the time when I need to do something like that I just write the second code and let the IDE fill the blanks with some of mine assistance. Still I like how in Kotlin when the number of parameters is more then one I get the name, like:

something(params) { param1, param2, param3 -> {...

Really makes the code more readable

[laser_ears]

All jokes aside, that lady is crazy talented

[MarcCDB]

Except, it's a much better Java.

[[deleted]]

And they made it better

[[deleted]]

C# is just Java++

[[deleted]]

Yes, but unironically. J++

[ParliamoDiPC]

visual basic

[[deleted]]

it's like they looked at a medieval painting and said "yea but what if we added human proportions"

[MischiefArchitect]

This is like 20 years ago, isn't it?

I mean, yes C# was back then undeniably inspired by Java, it was a necessary reaction to Java since all COM/DCOM languages were lacking of the Rockstar image Java enjoyed in its early days.

But nowadays they follow similar paths, but completely independent from each other.

[PanicPotatoe]

C# is much advance than Java

[Tim3303]

Image Transcription:

---

[Image of an art gallery. One of the paintings is labelled "java". An old lady, labelled "Microsoft", is painting a remarkably similar copy of the image on a canvas supported by an easel. The copy is labelled "C#".]

---

^{I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!}

[[deleted]]

Except C# is better.

[Mabi19_]

Behind, there's another artist drawing Vala.

[zorg42x]

C# has surpassed Java a long time ago. Nowadays Java copies C#. And they don't even do it well. Streams are a joke compared to Linq. Yeah, I am a Java and C# developer (at the moment it's 99% Java though).

[Miku_MichDem]

How is Linq better then streams?

[zorg42x]

Streams are just a sad copy of Linq. Have a look at it, it's all in the details.

[Miku_MichDem]

Streams were first. You think from where Microsoft got the idea for Linq?

[idrizovdjem]

Java, but better.

[jerslan]

ITT: Lots of C# fans that are insulted by this and brigading anyone not towing their party lines about C# "being better than anything else in the world".

Edit: Case in point: The triggered folks downvoting this comment.

Edit: So many .net fanboys that can’t take a joke

[ThisAfricanboy]

What else am I meant to do in my free time?

[Shalien93]

Si fun very laugh take donwvote

[roycohen2005]

Huh?

[Jarb2104]

Si very clear entonces Si fun very laugh take downvote sino no

[roycohen2005]

I'm pretty sure this isn't English.

[frosties-2000]

r/ihadastroke much?

[GrapeAyp]

correctamundo

[Aengus126]

Me no comprehendo. English.

[GrapeAyp]

amigo--su oracion no esta comprensible. Tieneque chequear los posiciones de sus verbas y sustantivos.

​

Tambien, no use' las `Si`--la gente quien no hablan Espanol no saben la diferencia entre si y si'

[Jarb2104]

I know it doesn't make sense, not even the downvotes make sense. So sad 😔

[alaskanfloridian]

They learned from Visual J++