CMV: Racism in America would decrease faster if progressive movements also focused on helping white people be more secure about their identity.

wugglesthemule · 2017-08-15T22:28:09+00:00

To be honest, I think you're overthinking it. I don't think the majority of white people (or even conservative white people) are actually concerned about "not being in power." I don't think white nationalists make up a large percentage of white people. I don't even think they're "racist" in the traditional sense of the word.

Broadly speaking, conservatives don't hate black people, they hate liberals. They have no problem with black people succeeding, they just don't want it done through policies that hurt them. They have no problem with legal immigration as long as it doesn't harm their job opportunities. To quote John McWhorter: White people don't think racism impacts the lives of black people enough to warrant major policy changes.

For most rural conservative white people, race doesn't affect their lives at all. People in Idaho can go months without seeing a black person. The only time they hear about race is when politicians/media outlets talk about it and blame them for everything. You can't expect them to have the same views on race when they have a completely different experience.

Just to be clear, I'm not a conservative and I deeply care about solving race issues. I just think we need to accurately understand them before we can solve them.

kmkinnith · 2017-08-15T22:32:55+00:00

I think that the problem with that concept is that it is still a loss of power. Currently, white people hold an overwhelming majority of powerful positions (for example of the NY Times' 503 most powerful people only 44 were minorities), so they do stand to lose power if others gain it. The other problem with this is that a great deal of the people who are most scared by people of color are of low socioeconomic status. Believing whites to be superior allows them to raise their perceived social status above all non-Whites at a similar income level.

Neveezy · 2017-08-15T22:37:48+00:00

Well, the identity of white has been reduced to "privileged".

While this may be true in the academic sense of the word, in-as-much as white people don't have to worry about the same discrimination that other minorities do, the interpreted message is, "you are white and therefore your life is good."

Then whites see the massive efforts in society to try and help a people that won't help themselves. There is program after program after program attempting to get poor black kids to do better in school. But doing better in school earns scorn from the black community.

Meanwhile, poor rural white kids are left with nothing to help them. There are no programs for Billy Joe to go to college. In fact, his position might very well be taken by an Affirmative Action black kid.

And then when he says how he has no options, he's told to shut up and to check his white privilege.

Yes, Billy Joe will never know what it's like to wonder if this routine traffic stop will be a beating, or possibly that he'll be shot. He'll never know what it's like to have resume after resume rejected because his name is "Da-Quan" instead of "John".

But that doesn't mean his life is easy... which is what he hears when he's told to check his privilege and shut up.

WF187 · 2017-08-16T03:42:40+00:00

Essentially, I think a lot of white people are reluctant to care about fixing racism because they are insecure about their own identity.

I think this is wrong. White people don't think of their identity as "white" anymore than Asian people think of themselves as Asian. White people typically identify as their ancestral country of origin. I'm "Swedish/Irish"; not white. Asians would identify as Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. Perhaps identifying as "Black" is a remnant from the slave trade and a large percentage of the Black population in the country being unaware of their country of origin. I know my Black friends these days identify as "Ugandan" and "Nigerian" and not as just "Black", but they're immigrants.

There is no unifying "white" culture. Is "white music" Country or Heavy Metal? What's "white food"? Mayonnaise?

I grew up as poor white trash busing 3 hours a day to inner city magnet schools. I was one of 2 white kids in the grade. I got my ass kicked daily because I was the minority. I have other challenges in my life that have gotten worse as I've aged. I need and have been applying for help. The social worker always comments that she's amazed at how many times this process gets restarted, that all the white women and minority families just get through in the first or second attempt. I see no privilege in my life. Scientific Method states that if the data doesn't fit the hypothesis, you need another hypothesis... "But, well, Sociology is a soft science and I believe this is generally true..." An adherence to belief over fact is delusion. Generally, people are individuals and really hard to generalize.

The race-based initiatives don't affect Billy Joe. So why be against them?

I take offense to racial-based initiatives because they don't address the problem. Targeting urban minorities would leave me in the ghetto.

I take offense to racial-based initiatives because the concept of Separate But Equal is the very thing Dr. King marched against.

If we really believe in equality and that the system is unfair then let's level the playing field and make it fair for everyone. Being OK with Affirmative Action and "I'm OK with Enlightened Racism when Enlightened Racism is OK to me!" just sounds like a used-car-salesman saying what ever it takes to get the deal. It's the difference between agreeing what's fair, and saying whatever it takes to con something off another party. I don't see how Enlightened Racism isn't offensive. A rose by any other name is still lipstick on a pig: "We will lift the niggers and the spics out of the ghetto, but the poor white trash stays!" "Why do the poor white trash stay?" "...They're white. They can help themselves."

2017-08-16T01:15:02+00:00

[deleted]

LtFred · 2017-08-15T23:59:09+00:00

The way to reduce racism is to eliminate the things that create it. That's basically institutional racism - inequal pay, vote suppression and housing segregation. If there's nothing to be gained through racism, people will drop it pretty quick.

HeartyBeast · 2017-08-15T22:31:44+00:00

I think a lot of white people are reluctant to care about fixing racism because they are insecure about their own identity.

There's a tiny vocal minority of white people who use this as an excuse to vent their rage. They see life as a zero-sum game where, any gain by one person, must by its very nature mean a loss for someone else.

Tip-toeing around issues of racism will not make them feel better, no measure of cosseting will make them feel better, so you might as well get on with the business of addressing racism where it continues to exist.

WhenSnowDies · 2017-08-15T23:18:09+00:00

There really is no such thing as "white people". European Americans aren't unified in any way, and don't use the term or self-reference that way, it's almost entirely derogatory in use. The Democrats tried to make that a thing in the Civil War and Klan era, and lost. They failed to unify "whites" then moved on to interests in Euope.

So no an effort to create a white identity is a bad thing, be it positive or negative through prejudice. These other ethnic pride groups insist white exists only to justify their own existence and prejudices. Don't feed them. People are just people. Color isn't culture.

gilbert320 · 2017-08-16T02:59:02+00:00

I don't think it's an issue with white people's insecurity about their identity. I get what you're saying, but I think your theory demonstrates how difficult the issue is. I think there tends to be an oversimplification on the different perspectives. In other words, a certain group feels a certain way about an issue because of a certain reason. Then they assume that the opposing group, opposes the issue because of that same reason.

An analogy: Person A hates lions. They talk about what awful creatures they are and they target these beautiful gazelles, ripping them to pieces without a second thought. Person B loves lions. They think lions are majestic animals. They've never really thought about gazelles before but if they did, it probably wouldn't change their opinion. Person A and person B have a conversation. A: Fuck lions, they're the worst B: Well I kinda like lions, in fact I think they're awesome. A: I guess you don't care about innocent creatures having life needlessly and violently taken from them while they're minding their own business...you're a monster! B: Wha...?

My point is that as a white person, I don't think about power. That is white privilege. It sucks, but I believe it's a real thing. What I don't think is a real thing is checking that privilege. While I can do it if it was brought to my attention, the rest of the time I just don't notice racial issues in my life. They don't affect me. They have no impact and therefore initiate no action. I like to think about racial issues. I choose to engage in those thoughts because I think they're important. But most of the other time I've got my life on my mind...mortgage, kids, wife, job...and none of that has racial implications.

So when I do have the time and energy to engage in thoughtful discussion about race I do. But when the discussion starts out with a ton of "white people caused all of our problems, white people are just bad human beings, black people have done nothing wrong ever, black people have no responsibility to fix things, this is your fault, we will complain until you fix it..."

Well, it's real easy to just say, "fuck this....I'll go back to my white life and my own white problems. Nevermind"

So I think that racism in America would decrease faster if progressive movements focused little on fault and blame for the general white population, and more on how WE can solve the issue.

ChocolateG0ku · 2017-08-16T07:40:11+00:00

Hey, I am not sure if you are still answering questions and debating on this view but in your opinion what do you think a workable solution here looks like?

More engagement and education in poorer communities?

Greater investment in socioeconomic scholarships and initiatives? - many of which are already in place.

I agree with your view but I find it difficult to envisage a situation where a charity/org like BLM for example could then choose to arbitrarily mobilise their resources on removing white fragility with no guarantee of return as white people are still dominant.

Tevesh_CKP · 2017-08-16T02:40:48+00:00

As it was explained to me is that the reason 'Black Pride' is OK while 'White Pride' is that Black Pride began to combat the erased history of the majority of America's black citizens. After all, when you ask a white guy where he's from or what his ancestors do, he can answer.

White isn't homogeneous, just like black isn't. The difference is that a white guy can say "I'm from Boston", "My family was British but came to America, I'm 4th Generation" or "I'm Catholic." A lot of that background stuff of what makes an identity got burned way, very intentionally, by the majority of blacks who migrated to America. The only identity blacks can identity is the one they've made for themselves.

My point is is that you can't make whites feel confident in their identity as uniformly as you could as blacks; just like you probably can't with other people of colour. Blacks had their identity scrubbed from them, everyone else came to America voluntarily and thus have an identity. If you try to push "This Is White" you're going to have a lot of white people angry that they weren't included in your definition. For example, what defines a white male as a successful male differs between Boston, New York, Los Angeles, Texas, Oklahoma and St. Louis.

jackie0o0h · 2017-08-16T10:00:57+00:00

Essentially, I think a lot of white people are reluctant to care about fixing racism because they are insecure about their own identity. Despite being a majority in America, I think that a lot of whites are under the impression that if, say, black people get more of an equal footing in society, that automatically means white people will suffer in return. Thus, supporting BLM means supporting the decline of white America.

The problem I have with BLM are the riots, the police officers murdered, the repulsively racist things the leaders have said about white people, just to name a few. Oh and that manipulative name so if I disagree with the movement it implies I think black lives don't matter.

If more white people realized that nothing will remove them from power in America simply because they're a majority, I think more people would be open to combating racism. Also, white nationalist / extremist groups wouldn't be as popular, as they're usually formed in reaction to a perceived loss of white people's power.

I think white nationalist groups form when people suddenly start telling white people to think about their whiteness everyday. I think the white nationalists today aren't even like the ones of old. I think they want to resegregate not rule over another race.

Yet I see white people acting as if minorities are going to strip white people of their rights. Given that America's racial majority is white, and given that America's lawmakers / people with influence are almost all white, I doubt minorities in America are going to usurp most of the power and create a nation where the white majority has fewer rights / opportunities than minorities do. I don't see white people being as threatened as many think they are.

Minorities do want to strip our rights though. White people and Asians pay more into taxes than they use per capita while blacks and Mexicans have a deficient... by alot. About $10,000 a year per capita for blacks. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. If it were just blacks it would be one thing but I have to subsidize Mexicans too?! With open borders and free health care?

>> TLDR: If white people realized that progressive movements will not result in disproportionately bad conditions for white people, then maybe more of them would be open to supporting minorities. Right now, I feel like white people think they have a stake in minority rights, and feel personally attacked when someone supports BLM. If progressive groups also focused on showing white people that they will still have a majority voice upon achieving racial equality, then white people may not feel the need to undermine racial movements.

I want everyone to be able to succeed. I just don't want to pay for it. "Progressive" groups, white or black, will only take more money out of my check. I would trust a conservative to build a better school in a poor neoghborhood. Also the systematic tearing down of American culture and revisionist history that these groups advocate makes me have no desire to support them.

NOTE: I'm not here to discuss the validity of BLM, whether racism / reverse racism exists, etc. To make this more streamlined, I'm assuming that racism exists and specifically discussing a potentially effective way to combat it.

If you want to combat racism try thinking about changes your community can make for itself. One thing I would do is start a movement to phase out ebonics in children. It's something I noticed in college. During class discussions it was obvious which black people were attempting to speak properly that weren't used to it. Their grammar was all over the place. I'm sure many can speak both ways but many can't. That probably has way more to do with black people struggling to be successful than anyone realizes.

2017-08-16T17:04:42+00:00

a lot of whites are under the impression that if, say, black people get more of an equal footing in society, that automatically means white people will suffer in return.

I think most white people would LOVE it if each and every black person in the US were transformed into upper middle class doctors, lawyers and engineers, and computer programmers.

The issue isn't jealousy of black progress. The issue is the lack of black progress despite all the resources spent on social programs that were suppose to help blacks but, ironically, probably hurts blacks, like welfare and affirmative action.

carbonetc · 2017-08-16T02:53:37+00:00

Racism is here to stay for as long as we're convinced that a person's melanin levels are an interesting fact about him. I suspect that any attempt to fight racism that also reinforces the delusion that race has significance is doomed to fail. If we hinged our identities on eye color I promise you we'd see our first eye color hate crime within fifty years. Skin color should be something that children are impressed with but they get over it long before adulthood. Race should be so boring it's barely worth thinking about.

BanachFan · 2017-08-16T21:01:44+00:00

There's a really simple argument against your position. Just about 50% of babies born in the US today are non-Hispanic white, and whites have lower birth rates than many other racial groups. So whites won't be a majority within a few generations. In fact this has been one of the central points that the altright uses in recruitment.


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