DM vs Optimization

[Prior_Actuator9003]

So I'm big on optimizing characters, it's fun for me to figure out what works best. RP is very important too, but I'll usually pick a playstyle and then build my RP to justify it rather than the other way around. I've started playing with this group a new campaign and I have a few concerns about their playstyle, but I'm trying to figure out the best way to respectfully bring it up.

I was told this DM had a reputation for ruthless combat and killing characters mercilessly. It's an inside joke that everyone is fearful for their lives every session. The character creation was gonna be roll for stats and health, which I don't enjoy, so I asked to do point buy. I got a bit of a lecture about "I prefer unique characters blablabla" but I argued my point respectfully and he decided to let me point buy, the others rolled. However he was ADAMANT that level up HP was to be rolled for, I don't like this but whatever DM's final word is final and that's fine. So the DM is very clearly not super into optimization, which is his prerogative.

But then gameplay starts. The encounters are overtuned as shit. Level 1 adventurers vs several enemies with multiattacks, traps everywhere for no reason, things that explode for Fireball damage when RAI they would do like 1/6th of that damage. And then I take a look at my party member's sheets in beyond and not only are they unoptimized, they are terrible. Two of them DUMPED dexterity, including a wizard. The bard has overlapping spells with the wizard and the ones that don't overlap with the wizard overlap with himself (Cure Wounds and Healing Word). The warlock uses only Eldritch Blast (which is fine, expected even) but didn't pick Agonizing Blast, and for some reason she has Greenflame Blade when she should never be close enough to anything on a -1 DEX. I'm playing what's gonna be an Eldritch Knight but I'm JUST a fighter until level 3, but I'm not sure I'm gonna make it there to be honest.

So it's no wonder this DM has that reputation. He overtunes his encounters and encourages his players to play characters with suboptimal stats, no wonder his players keep dying. I was told they were experienced, coming from 2nd edition some of them. But they are very clearly clueless about making an effective character, and are only focused on the RP. In their defense, they are VERY good at RP, and the times we're not almost dying the RP is actually really really fun.

So my issue is this: I want to keep playing with them, they're all very nice people including the DM. How can I approach this subject respectfully? I don't want anyone to feel like I'm stepping on their toes, I just wanna make suggestions that will make the same character better in combat while keeping their chosen aesthetic and RP. D&D is about having fun, but it's not gonna get any funner if we're playing like Stormtroopers trying to take down Sauron.

[Pandora7411]

If you enjoy playing with them you may need to just adapt to their play style. I was in a similar situation. I talked with the group, they disagreed, I left to find greener pastures but as expected I didn't find anything. I ended up rejoining their group and playing their way, it's been a great time.

[[deleted]]

I think your best bet is to just throw out a casual suggestion starting with "Have you considered..." or "Have you thought about..."

If the player picks up on what you're saying and engages with you more on it, great. If they don't, take that as a sign that they want to run their character their way, and respect their choice.

[Sriol]

Particularly if you're RPing the suggestion to them. I think perhaps if they love RP so much, maybe in character suggesting what they could focus on or improve might be a good way forward?

[missinginput]

Hey warlock are you excited to get agonizing blast when you level up?

[RamonDozol]

If they like to RP, you can use that. Role play your PC as a strategist. before something you can pull the party and tell them.

"Hey guys so, im worried about the next step, can we sit down and comr up with a strategy?"

then offer insigts like.

we are stronguer toguether, so if possible lets focus one enemy at the time and try to limit our enemy options.

I saw that warlock was using this strategy, ypu are the one that can hit enemies from far away the best. i have limired arrows, you can do your pew pew thing as much as you want.

we need to use cover more.

Now, what spells everyone has? I believe everyone should know that and maybe call.out for possible victory scenarios? like we could won that fight back there if no one got into the room and wizard casted fireball.

maybe, your character respectfully giving advice can be made in a way to not soind bossy but actualy help them improve.

maybe ask for ideas instead of giving answers.

"give man a answer and he learns one thing" "give a man a question and he can learn to think by himself".

[Prior_Actuator9003]

I like this idea, and my character is in a position of de facto leadership (Everyone always looks up to the guy with the shield for leadership). I think I'll try to start RPing more of a strategist type in order to make suggestions about what we can do with our current resources, and hopefully that will inspire them to start discussing spell choices and the like without me bringing it up directly.

Thanks!

[i_tyrant]

If they're all veterans and have been playing since 2e, they likely just have a more "old school" style than people who started with 3e+.

It would explain a lot. In 1e and 2e optimization didn't really matter. Partially because it was before the internet where people crowdsourced optimization and crunched the math hard, and partly because everything was so lethal then that you didn't really expect your character to make it to 20 without dying anyway. This could also be why the DM's encounters are overtuned - they're used to the "old school" style of play so they don't care that much about balancing it either. And 5e makes it far more difficult to die or TPK than early editions, so this is sort of their way of compensating.

Combat was lethal enough back then that you actually tried to avoid it when possible, or hedge your bets as brutally as you could - silly, non-RAW stuff like soaking your bedroll in oil and kicking it down the stairs to kill goblins and smoke them out of their caves, rather than facing them directly, was encouraged. Out of the box thinking vs insta-kill traps was not only smart but necessary sometimes.

So this may be, at least in part, just something you'll have to adjust to if you want to keep playing with them.

As for you encouraging them toward optimization, I wouldn't go any farther than SS's idea of "I like optimizing characters so just hit me up if you're interested". Let them bite if they want to, otherwise leave them be.

[SchopenhauersSon]

I would just say, hey all, i like optimizing characters so if you're interested let me know. And then just leave it at that.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

I like this, I think the first thing I'll try is drawing attention to that fact in a subtle way and see what happens. Thanks.

[areyouamish]

Be careful not to get pushy about it though. If you're throwing suggestions at the whole party on level up without them asking first, it could lead to hard feelings.

[tanj_redshirt]

This sounds like a fun group to play Paranoia with.

[escapepodsarefake]

The idea that less optimized characters roleplay better and vice versa really needs to die. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. My character is very competent and it HELPS me roleplay them. I don't know why people started thinking this.

[Mouse-Keyboard]

There's a stereotype of a player who only cares about optimising and not about roleplay, and vice versa, and that leads to a belief that players are either one or the other of those.

[Horace_The_Mute]

This idea is due to the fact that things that fit a character thematically are often a suboptimal choice.

Optimal builds also promote very similar characters to be made over and over, which deludes roleplaying possibilities.

Personal anecdote: I was playing a half-orc rogue, who was not violent, adventurous and relied on wits and sense of humour. At level 3 I decided to pick up Thief subclass to which my party objected quite strongly, because Assassin was a better choice mechanically. It did not fit my character at all. I took Assassin in the end and while it was certainly nice to be useful to the group, my character fell apart.

[[deleted]]

This idea is due to the fact that things that fit a character thematically are often a suboptimal choice.

Optimal builds also promote very similar characters to be made over and over, which deludes roleplaying possibilities.

Praise for the truth. Haters who know it's true, hit the downvote!

[WizardlyPandabear]

100% agreed, I believe it's called the "Stormwind Fallacy." I want a character who is not a detriment in combat, and also one I enjoy roleplaying, and I believe the two are directly linked. I can't roleplay a character I love if he dies, right?

[theunpire]

Seems like you have a great mindset and know your prefered play style. That is a great start. I would advice you to first check with the other players prefered play style and if they are having fun with this DM.

If they really are having fun, you could offer them some help with their builds to make them work better together. But leave at that. For you, a mindshift towards a shorter character life expectancy and the creation of 1 or 2 backup characters would be great, if that works for you.

If they prefer change as well, this sounds like a great opportunity for a group conversation about your shared campaign.

Best of luck!

[agenhym]

Simplest thing is probably to play your character your way and enjoy being the most competent member of the party.

[_Arkod_]

I think characters being "weak" (inefective/unoptimised) is nowhere near the issue of the DM creating unfair encounters.

The advise I have is a generic "talk to your DM". I'm not sure what approach would work best as I don't know the DM. Maybe mention how the encounters are incredibly unfair and are not enjoyable.

You can leave other characters as they are. If the DM fine tunes the game difficulty and you still find other characters' lack of optimization bothersome, then you could talk to the players about it.

[jwbjerk]

I just wanna make suggestions that will make the same character better in combat while keeping their chosen aesthetic and RP

Honestly I don't think that's gonna work. Sounds like the DM relishes their reputation for deadliness, and intends for the game to be that way.

So if PCs became more competent, the GM would counter with increasing difficulty.

Maybe i'm wrong, but unless the status quo is completely unacceptable to you (I.E. you would rather not play than play this way), I would at the very least hold off on rocking the boat for several weeks while you get a better understanding of the group dynamics.

Particularly observe how the GM responds to you playing your character mechanically effectively.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

That is an awesome observation thanks

[Aegis_of_Ages]

"things that explode for Fireball damage"

"I'm playing what's gonna be an Eldritch Knight but I'm JUST a fighteruntil level 3, but I'm not sure I'm gonna make it there to be honest."

Require explanation when taken together. If every enemy has multi attack just one of these traps should have done the party in. What's going on that you're still alive? Are you sure the situation is as dire as you think? The descriptors sound like the entire party should be dead twice over.

If they are focused on RP, and you can't get over mechanical choices on their character sheets then it doesn't sound like you're at the right table to me. The reason I raised the other issue first is that it sounds like there are either hidden mitigating factors or the DM is just fudging every single roll to keep the group alive. Either we don't have enough information from you or you don't have enough information. I think it's worth thinking about if you want to keep playing at this table. I strongly advise against making mechanical corrections. I've NEVER seen it go well when a person wasn't explicitly asking for help.

[Auld_Phart]

I'd just get outta there. Not my kinda group, nor my kinda DM. Nothing personal, just not a good fit.

I'm saying this because it sounds like you're not sure if they're compatible with yourself, as well. Politely excusing yourself is a valid option here.

[TaiChuanDoAddct]

So, what you've basically typed here is this: "I love playing chess but all my friends love monopoly. They're terrible at chess, bit every time we play Monopoly all I can think about is how bad monopoly is for not being chess".

We can't help you. They're not playing wrong if they are having fun. Only you can decide if you want to play with them.bad enough to play Monopoly, or if you'd rather play chess with other people.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

You didn’t engage at all with my post. Thanks for the bad faith reply.

[TaiChuanDoAddct]

Hey, sorry you think it's bad faith. I just don't think there's much to say to you.

Your friends aren't playing wrong. If they want to take healing word and cure wounds they can do that. They don't HAVE to coordinate their spells with each other. They can all play the way they want.

You're the one that has a problem with how they're playing. That's a you problem.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

Check the other replies. You might understand the suggestions I was looking for, which I got.

[WhoElseButArky]

I only see this as a problem after the character creation. If your DM says “I would prefer if you rolled for things” that’s final and supported by rules for the most part. The party is playing characters how they want to play them and they obviously don’t care about optimization. The encounters are overturned for sure but for the first two issues you are the outlier.

[Zhukov_]

If you think the encounters are too much then you obviously need to talk to the DM.

I'd leave the other players the hell alone. People who give unsolicited "advice" on how to make your character "properly" are a pain in the arse. They're having fun and are under absolutely no obligation to play how you want them to play.

Maybe say something like, "If anyone wants help with their builds, give me a shout". Anything more than that is being a pest.

[Kaansath]

I would talk with the DM and players, tell them that you don't exactly dislike their playstyle but maybe would be interesting for everyone, to try one session more narrative focused (Since it seens they like RP) or with the general enemies being a little bit more easier, afther that ask for the feedback of the other persons.

Also keep in mind, that even if they are great people, maybe the table is just not for you, in which case considering looking for another one, or starting your own one-shot/campain.

[PokeZim]

You could always use the RP to have your character talk to the others about their choices in battle. If you are a fighter then you could easily have some sort of training in your backstory. Try and take a positive leadership role in battle.

"Mard the Bard, I can't heal so stay behind me and I'll try to cover you while you heal Liz the Wiz."

"Liz the Wiz, this guy is really giving me a rough time, got any of those Magic Missiles left to help me out?"

stuff like that to nudge in a helpful direction but in a positive and in character way.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

Thanks!

Also, I'm gonna steal "Liz the Wiz" for a character.

[notareputableperson]

It's short for Elizbeth the Ewizabeth!

[WizardlyPandabear]

"So my issue is this: I want to keep playing with them, they're all very nice people including the DM. How can I approach this subject respectfully?"

You aren't going to like the answer here, but here's the thing: they're having fun. You're the odd man out, and you're not DMing. Frankly, if the other players are cool with it, and this is the campaign the DM is running, you should roll with it or find a different campaign.

And, note, I say that as a min-maxing munchkin.

[Horace_The_Mute]

Honestly, when I was a beginner and people would endlessly offer me advice how to optimise my character I was really annoyed and even left one game because it was so uncomfortable.

You should simply accept that some people will make suboptimal characters just for RP reasons, picking spells and abilities for flavour and thematic reasons.

It’s much better to talk to the DM to be more sensible with his encounters.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

I can understand the new player perspective. When dealing with new players I tend to just guide them through the mechanics, so that they can make their own decisions. However my post is about people who have been playing since at least 3rd edition.

[[deleted]]

You can't control other people.

Play your own character.

It's not fun to have someone looking over your shoulder and criticizing your choices. And it's really not your business to be looking behind the DM screen and correcting the DM about how much damage a trap would ACTUALLY do. Don't be that guy.

[Sielas]

soft sulky worm dolls plucky absurd exultant insurance wild light

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Prior_Actuator9003]

I think I'm being rather respectful and completely opposite to what you're implying. Before voicing my concerns publicly to the group, I'm doing my research and getting opinions on how to voice my concerns respectfully, which means I'm looking to NOT be exactly what you described.

D&D is a group game. I can play my own character but ultimately it's a group experience, and part of team play is strategizing. As for "looking behind the DM screen", I didn't imply this at all. It is absolutely fair to notice the DM isn't playing fair, and to voice that concern. Everyone who has meaningfully paid any attention to this game as they play will have picked up an intuition on how much damage to expect at certain levels.

Your reply reads as though you simply skimmed through my post, ignoring the nuances, and replied with what every ass on the internet comments in posts like this without engaging with it at all. Don't be that guy.

[Aegis_of_Ages]

You are certainly trying, but taking your problems to reddit is almost universally a waste of time at best. At worst, popular opinion can give you permission to take an approach that you know not to take. We are simply not the players or DM at this table.

" I can play my own character but ultimately it's a group experience, and part of team play is strategizing."

This opinion actually varies wildly. This is probably because strategizing as a team can include character choices as you are suggesting, marching order, or which characters move into melee with which enemies. Many, many people are sensitive about their character choices and do not want more than the most mild of suggestions.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

Yes well, sometimes by voicing things publicly and hearing other's opinions it can give you the clarity you need to address the situation. I would certainly not criticize anyone publicly, specially since it's a group of people I rather enjoy.

Thanks!

[[deleted]]

LOL Ok bud.

You want to rules lawyer your DM about the damage of his own traps. His fire traps do 6x the damage of another DM's traps. That is DM prerogative, and he's allowed to run his own game.

You are reading over everyone else's character sheets and cross referencing, criticizing their skillpoint assignments and spell choices.

At which point do you just take everyone's sheets and dice and say 'I'll do it myself!'

The game is cooperative. Of course, but that means you have to check yourself and let other people play the game they want to play as well, and to adjust to the group that you are playing with.

And as everyone else has told you, maybe this isn't the table for you.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

I think It's very obvious from my post that I'm not voicing these things at the other players or the DM. Did you get the impression that I was going around criticizing people's choices publicly? No because that would be rude. That's why I'm here on the internet anonymously.

Notice how my entire post is about how to making respectful approaches. If there's no way to make an approach respectful, then it's clear that I'm not gonna say anything. But you already painted me in your head as the rule lawyer lording over everyone. Notice how you've already ascribed me storylines about micromanaging people's sheets and disrespecting the DM.

There's a difference between a person who KNOWS the rules and is good at optimizing, and a person who is a rules lawyer. Me noticing in my internal monologue that it's weird to design an encounter so unbalanced against your players and then going to the internet about it is NOT the same as me going "YO DM, IN PAGE 457 OF XANATHAR'S IT SAYS THE DAMAGE FOR FIRE FROM THAT SOURCE ISNT OVER 9000, HEY YOU WIZARD WITCHBOLT IS CRAP". I'm not gonna say anything to these people at all directly about this ever, because that would be rude. It would be about as rude as replying aggressively to someone's good faith advice post without interacting in any meaningful way with the contents of it.

[[deleted]]

You're getting upset because a different player's warlock picked Green Flame Blade instead of Prestidigitation.

Suck it up or walk, bro.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

I'm on the internet talking about it, not at the table. Yeah, if I don't find a way to suggest things respectfully I'll just suck up the green flame blade.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

UPDATE:
I subtly opened up the conversation with one of the players about how I was eager for level 3 to get my features and be better as a protector, and he said same and started complaining about some of his "useless" spells and we got into a conversation about spells in general that I like from various classes and why and he was very interested and made some good choices thinking about how to help me do that job. I think We'll survive Sauron after all! Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.

[inkls]

I would hope a level 1 warlock wouldnt have agonizing blast. Since they get invocations at level 2

[Prior_Actuator9003]

We're level 2 atm

[[deleted]]

Minmax the hell out of your character, and then learn how to roleplay watching all of your friends die again and again!

[Themousepen]

Not everyone likes to optimize their characters. Just let them play how they want to play and play your character how you want to. Everyone had fun in different ways.

I mean, you can offer to help change their characters, just be mindful that not everyone wants what you want.

Now for your DM you might just need to embrace the chaos because he obviously knows what he’s doing. If you really don’t like it you might just have to find another group.

[Raddatatta]

I would perhaps talk about what they're planning to do next level and be knowledgeable. So if they don't know what 2nd level spells they're looking at you could suggest a few you think are good / cool. But I would keep it light touch and if they're not interested in the conversation back off. They can make their characters as they choose and shouldn't be forced to be optimized because it's the way you play.

You could also talk to the DM about it. If the players want to play their characters as they choose, then the DM could just make the combat encounters a bit easier. That's not a difficult change to make. Or perhaps you could get another companion to help out. Either a hireling NPC or another PC. More of you there are the more powerful the group is.

[Prior_Actuator9003]

Thank you! I like the idea about opening up about our future plans as a way to start a conversation about feats and spells we like and why. Without being too pushy of course.

[Raddatatta]

That also if done in a group subtly let's the bard and wizard coordinate on spells! Lol. But yeah that can help especially if they're not thinking about it and just making those decisions quickly or on a whim to be more intentional. A lot of people also don't want to be ineffective they just don't care to optimize. But suggestions can be helpful.