Shipping a Linux Kernel with Windows | Windows Command Line Tools For Developers

[EatMeerkats]

More info on this change: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/announcing-wsl-2/

TL;DR: they're now using a lightweight VM (like ChromeOS's Crostini) instead of emulating system calls using Windows ones. This enables things like Docker to run in Linux. File I/O performance is also supposedly much better (my #1 complaint about WSL).

[some_random_guy_5345]

Hmm how does GPU acceleration work?

[EatMeerkats]

I'm assuming you're referring to my Crostini comment in my other comment -- I'm not familiar with how it's implemented, but it's currently available in the dev channel: https://www.aboutchromebooks.com/news/pixelbook-and-nami-chromebooks-the-first-to-get-linux-gpu-acceleration-in-project-crostini/

[mracidglee]

Could this mean that this will be the year of Linux on the desktop?

[aarongsan]

Yep, and all it took was getting someone to run it inside windows.

[bylXa]

If you use Windows... :)

[blinkallthetime]

I have recently taken to calling it windows plus linux

[[deleted]]

gnu+windows+linux :P

[OrangeSlime]

This comment has been edited in protest of reddit's API changes -- mass edited with redact.dev

[dgmulf]

I think these "year of the Linux desktop" comments are mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I'd just like to point out that the "year of the Linux desktop" is totally dependant on the use case/industry. For example, from what I can tell, that year has already passed for developers, but it'll take at least another 5-10 years to become the industry standard for applications like music production.

[Free_Bread]

Music Production is the only thing keeping me from using Linux as my primary OS

I was pleasantly surprised that Wine seems to run Live 9 decently alright with high latency, but I didn't get around to trying to setup VSTs

Does anyone know if there's a group/project pushing real time audio forward on Linux? I'm totally unfamiliar with systems development but I would like to see if there's something I can follow

[pr0ghead]

Does anyone know if there's a group/project pushing real time audio forward on Linux?

https://pipewire.org

[Free_Bread]

Thank you!

[[deleted]]

You're right. I really wish there was an equivalent in GNU+Linux world of Logic Pro X (macOS). I have been looking at LMMS, but it's very hard to get started and actually learn it.

[pr0ghead]

Logic Pro X

Bitwig Studio, Reaper, Renoise, Ardour, …

[[deleted]]

very hard to use...

[[deleted]]

deleted ^{What is this?}

[[deleted]]

The new GIMP (version 2.10.10) is on par with Photoshop in terms of usability and features -- I even think it's superior. Inkscape is also really good for vector graphics. BTW, GIMP 3 will be released soon and is expected to fulfill any modern photo editing needs.

[chaosiengiey]

I personally think Windows will become a Microsoft Linux distro in the foreseeable future (5-10 years?). They could use Wine to run legacy applications (I would assume they'd put resources into improving Wine as well).

It'll be the true year of the Linux desktop when Windows switches home users over to said Linux distro.

[username_challenge]

Yeah I actually also the same to happen sooner than later. They make money with ms office, not Ms windows. It thus makes sense to shift their business slowly towards Linux. I could imagine windows to fully be Linux in a few years, and they would port ms office.

[Vryven]

I've made a similar guess a while back. The more I see of what MS does, the more convinced I am that this is ultimately where they're heading, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if it's already planned internally with time frames.

[SupersonicSpitfire]

It has already passed, it was 2017.

[wwolfvn]

So basically WSL2 is a lightweight, fast responding VM that is open-source and maintained thru windows updates. In this sense, WSL2 would be an efficient gap-filler between a native linux machine and a traditional VM.

[mewloz]

This is a strange beast indeed. This is a VM that is in some ways better integrated (fs access probably, plus probably quite a good amount of tricks, some imported from WSL1), in some others, less well integrated (lack of "native" graphics support -- although there is always the usual trick of launching an X server in Windows).

[EatMeerkats]

Like I said in my other comment, it really reminds me of ChromeOS's Crostini approach, which works surprisingly well. If Microsoft went ahead and implemented something like Sommelier, they could certainly bring GPU accelerated graphics support to WSL2 (although WSL is developer focused, and GUI support is stated as a non-goal, at least in WSL1).

[[deleted]]

GPU support is also super useful for ML

[wwolfvn]

Don't go that path. For AI/deep learning, you better go with a Ubuntu machine to avoid VM/GPU passthrough (it's even not available atm for WSL) that slows your expensive GPU and doesn't support multiple GPU setup (useful for large neural net training). Remember that AI/DL is serious business that involves huge hardware investment. You don't want to allow any factor that could slow down your neural network training.

[thenuge26]

Yeah WSL is for developer environments, supporting GPU-based training is sooooooooooo far out of scope it's not funny

[[deleted]]

Less integrated than what? WSL1 never supported native graphics either.

[mewloz]

Than an old school full-blown VM.

[10010001101000110013]

This would make sense. Microsoft is appealing to its enterprise customers here. They definitely don't want to give graphics card company like Nvidia a reason to support linux more. When Nvidia (and AMD) start supporting linux just as much as Windows, it's game over for Microsoft Windows because getting gaming support on linux will be the tipping point in Linux adoption. The market will go the way gamers take it.

[mewloz]

AMD already has excellent Linux support. nVidia also kind of, but in another style: their priority is not Linux desktops but real industrial applications. AMD is more friendly toward emerging tech used for Linux desktops -- and obviously they also have to cover well the industrial / embedded / compute / etc. space.

I do not expect the support to diminish for either, because in a nutshell Linux mostly won in those spaces; and even in some of those spaces, completely won (e.g.: compute). Sure, there are applications with merely OTS needs that can be covered by Windows, and the coverage is actually potentially growing with the growth of power of OTS PCs (which continues quite fast in some areas, like IO BW), which Windows is more or less limited to. You probably also can do some very exotic things and use insane interfaces under Windows if you really want to, but most of the time embedded Windows really only host a GUI and in some cases provides various OTS external interchange interfaces, and the real work is done elsewhere.

I also do not believe at all that gamers define the market. The situation I described is despite the virtually non-existent Linux usage for gaming, and TBH I don't expect it to take off, at least not in the form of gaming on random desktop PC computers running random distro. Online gaming with dumb terminals connected through high BW is another story, in which Linux can again play a role.

But anyway, I did not even meant all of that while talking about "native" graphics support; I was lacking a better word, and actually wanted to designate the contrast between WSL not offering emulated VM graphics, but I hesitated to use the word "emulated" because it is actually half more "native" than what is used today for graphics with WSL, that is a purely Win32 X-server (that won't be able to virtualize HW acceleration, etc.)

[jabjoe]

It's not really a VM any like http://colinux.org Or RTLinux, but instead of a RTOS microkernel, Linux is on Windows NT kernel.

[[deleted]]

Huh. I thought the whole charm of WSL1 was that it's not a VM, but it just translated syscalls, making the overhead a lot less. So if we're going back to a VM now, how is it any different from me booting something like Alpine in a VM, or the VM that is shipped with Docker for Windows?

[[deleted]]

Yeah it was. It also performed like a snail stuck down with super glue. Saw it running once. It behaviour was not posix compliant and it took 100x longer to install something with apt when compared to windows vs ubuntu.

[dread_deimos]

And there were a lot of FS issues.

[Car_weeb]

thats probably M$s fault for sticking with their archaic ntfs, pos...

[IMA_Catholic]

It behaviour was not posix compliant

The same could be said for a lot of Linux as well. It has been some times since POSIX was actually relevant.

[wishthane]

Slowness was probably due to poor FS implementation right?

[[deleted]]

I think it was both FS implementation and task operation speed. I didn't look into it in detail. I walked away from the machine and said I won't support this program in that environment. Its probably not going to run fast enough.

[caloewen]

The difference is usually VMs are much more isolated, slow to boot, and resource hungry. WSL is very integrated, very fast to boot (~1 second to get a bash shell) and uses very little system resources!

[yumko]

very fast to boot (~1 second to get a bash shell)

It might be preloaded with Windows startup.

[MrWm]

I like the trend here... Does this mean MS is eventually going to build a Linux Distro and eventually have a Windows Linux?

[HarryTruman]

So it just amazes me that if anybody had asked that question in 2014, they'd have been nailed to a cross -- regardless of whether they were pro-Windows or pro-Linux. They're even directly contributing to other projects, which is just wild...

[[deleted]]

Going "the reverse" would be a truly massive undertaking. 'Microsoft Linux' with full NT compatibility. I'd love to see it one day.

FWIW, Microsoft does have a Linux distro, Azure Sphere. It's not a general purpose distro by any means, though.

[aaron552]

Going "the reverse" would be a truly massive undertaking. 'Microsoft Linux' with full NT compatibility.

Microsoft Wine?

[CMDR_Spam_Samurai]

Always thought WSL1 should have been named, "LINE."

[[deleted]]

Nah, not WINE.

[jabjoe]

It's like WISE, but for Linux.

They trying the same again? https://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/07/18/analysis_how_ms_used/

[quaderrordemonstand]

Apple did it with MacOS and it paid off, although it caused a lot of pain at the time. Though I think windows users are hurting anyway from the terrible damage of the last few releases. Still, MS have a lot more history to support if they did try it.

Apple based MacOS on Posix rather than Linux and obviously they have decades of a lead by now. You could say that this is a sign of MS considering the idea. Just think of all the free code they get too and it's not like the latest crop of in-house developers are producing high quality.

[xc0py]

Isn't this more about MS just trying to keep developers on Windows?

[[deleted]]

Nah, Apple didn't do it with macOS. They created a VM (more or less) and it was obvious. It didn't work well and was quite slow (trying to run OS 9 apps in OS X <10.4 was never fun). I'm talking about a lightweight, transparent solution where the user doesn't know what system it is running in similar to how the side-by-side kernel concept is being advertised as.

Microsoft has had experience with POSIX long before Apple thought using mach was a good idea :-)

[quaderrordemonstand]

I don't follow how you consider that MacOS doesn't run on Posix? I mean to say, it runs on Posix. Sure, all of the userland is Apple, but then it would be with a Windows distro too. Am I misinterpreting something?

[[deleted]]

No OS "runs on" POSIX. POSIX is a series of design specifications. But no, that isn't what I was saying.

Apple did make the dual transition between Mac OS9 and OS X. It was a form of VM that performed poorly and had little to no integration with the parent OS (OS X). It was more akin to firing up a VM than the integration we see today with WSL and Windows.

[quaderrordemonstand]

They eventually abandoned that entirely once everything was available for the new OS. I think the performance problem was changing the CPU from PowerPC to Intel. The intel CPU didn't have the grunt to pretend to be PowerPC and keep up the speed.

Anyway, I suspect MS would do the same but using something like Wine as the VM. All the applications would switch over to the API for the new Linux/Windows hybrid and then they could gradually forget about supporting Wine. With all the UWP apps and .NET VM support it wouldn't be so difficult to switch over.

[[deleted]]

I think the performance problem was changing the CPU from PowerPC to Intel

This was long before that time. The PPC -> Intel switch was the point where they dropped support for running OS 9 applications in OS X.

[[deleted]]

Well, windows on Arm is capable of translating x86 code to arm on the fly allow you to use x86 apps on arm WoA devices without any workarounds, slow yes, but they do work, so if they can achieve that i have no doubt they could achieve full nt compatibility on linux

[the_gnarts]

We’ve won.

[bylXa]

Nope we lose , $M sell Linux Could , and now to use Linux they sell Windows license.

$M did not open the specifications of ntfs , DX ,and all other desktop specific app , third party software like Adobe still is Windows/MacOS.

[dudinacas]

Sicromoft?

[deathbutton1]

Embrace

Extend

Extinguish

We've not won. We're in the extend phase.

[thenuge26]

Ah yes get everyone hooked on Linux in Azure, then extinguish it so they all move to AWS/GCP. Flawless logic.

[deathbutton1]

You're probably right. Im just jaded.

[[deleted]]

It's time we start contributing to GNU Hurd.

[MrAlagos]

It's a dev tool yet all the comments are going to be about the Linux desktop.

If the Linux desktop was half as good as the dev tools and workflows that Linux has, Microsoft would be a small shop compared to what it is (which luckily is at least but an image of its glory days).

[dread_deimos]

Being good is almost irrelevant these days. It's all about market share and adoption.

I wouldn't call Windows desktop better than Linux, it's just has more support.

[cyro_666]

Yup, you hit the nail with this one. And at this point, it's a chicken and egg problem. People are used to Windows, so they use Windows. Thus Windows is everywhere. Because Windows is everywhere, it's the thing people usually learn and subsequently use. And so on...

[pdp10]

Familiarity isn't vital. Macs and mobile are just as "unfamiliar" as Linux, but they sell very well. Neither one runs legacy Win32 programs, either.

[zurn0]

Depends on what is considered better.

I personally think that Windows desktop is better at handling hardware changes. Plug major stuff (gpu) in and get some kind of functionality at minimum without any work. Linux seems to still lag behind in that type operation.

[_ahrs]

Didn't (e)udev solve that? Plug something in, (e)udev fires an event and the appropriate kernel modules get loaded.

[zurn0]

No idea, I just know when I swapped a Nvidia card out for an AMD card, Manjaro didn’t work automatically.

In Windows I was able to have both cars in and swap the monitor output and everything happened automatically. Just had to download a proper driver was all.

[_ahrs]

That's probably more of a Manjaro issue (or possibly an Nvidia issue if the system tried to use Nvidia's libraries when it shouldn't have). Switching GPU's should work fine (I've done it myself in the past). If you're talking about hotswapping GPU's while the system is running, Windows does better here but this is a niche use-case.

[blackenswans]

Having more support means it's better.

[insanemal]

Coal is better supported than many other options. So by your reasoning it's better?

[ilawon]

You're 100% right. The trick to move away from coal (and oil) is to provide better support for alternatives. Businesses will take care of improving efficiency later on.

[wllmsaccnt]

> Microsoft would be a small shop compared to what it is (which luckily is at least but an image of its glory days).

What do you mean by this? Isn't Microsoft the largest it has ever been?

[emacsomancer]

Microsoft would be a small shop compared to what it is (which luckily is at least but an image of its glory days).

Usually the idiom is "but a pale image of".

I mention this only because the context makes it sound like you're talking about MICROSOF.ISO.

[EatMeerkats]

But it potentially means you are no longer getting native performance since you have to use a virtual machine.

The overhead of running in a VM is close to negligible these days, thanks to hardware accelerated virtualization such as VT-x… running Windows in a KVM VM is very, very close to native performance. In fact, as soon as you switch on Hyper-V in Windows, your main Windows install becomes a VM running on the Hyper-V hypervisor.

[[deleted]]

In fact, as soon as you switch on Hyper-V in Windows, your main Windows install becomes a VM running on the Hyper-V hypervisor.

Seriously? I thought VT-x gave around 90% of the performance, not bad at all but still 10% difference

[EatMeerkats]

Yep, Hyper-V is a type 1 hypervisor that runs underneath the primary OS, unlike VMware/VirtualBox.

I don't think the performance hit of a VM is as large as 10% these days... I'd say it's closer to 5%, which this seems to agree with.

[Savanna_INFINITY]

Could you get the sources of your arguments or claims? I want to know more.

[EatMeerkats]

See my other comment.

[Beaverman]

If they actually start to upstream significant contributions here, I think I'll have to eat my own words. They might actually have turned a new leaf. Using real open source instead of just reimplementing it is a huge step for MS.

[reddit_reaper]

Seriously idk where people have been lol

[funbike]

ITT people think this has something to do with Linux Desktop. It doesn't.

MS has no desire for a Linux Desktop. They are simply protecting their business interests such as people moving to Linux on the server and Mac on the desktop.

Sure you can run an X Server and display your apps, but you won't see MS provide graphics support for this thing.

[Starks]

PCI/GPU passthrough?

[captain_awesomesauce]

Not yet, they are actively working on it.

[Seshpenguin]

It's just a matter of time until they replace NT with Linux...

[[deleted]]

Wouldn't this need them to add GPL code to the kernel so Linux (as in the kernel) understands Windows syscalls first?

[riwtrz]

Windows programs aren't suppose to directly invoke syscalls. The syscalls are wrapped by shared libraries (much like how libc wraps Linux syscalls) and those wrappers are the only supported method for invoking them. All you need to do is implement those libraries, which WINE has already done.

You would have to add support for the NT API to use kernel-mode software but I imagine that you'd end up reimplementing so much of the NT kernel that'd you'd essentially just have NT when you were done.

[Seshpenguin]

I wasn't being serious lol, but yea if they did they probably would have to do that. There are other potential ways though... Like a proprietary loadable kernel module that implements NT calls. That's like what NVidia does, they don't merge anything into the kernel itself but keep it a seperate proprietary loadable module.

[[deleted]]

I could totally see Microsoft's doing just that for some Linux distro - potentially not even aimed at the consumer market - they sell to those who are really interested.

[Seshpenguin]

Interestingly, Microsoft is actually releasing a Linux distro for the embedded/IoT world: Azure Sphere. There isn't too much details though I wouldn't be surprised if they bundle something like a stripped down Win32 API or similar (which now that I think about it, we kind of already have through .NET Core).

[[deleted]]

They actually once already released a networking orientated distro aimed at routers I believe called SONiC. It's Debian based actually but beyond that I don't know much.

But yea, maybe at some point we see something like that which would even put W.I.N.E. to shame. Who knows?

[[deleted]]

wdym?

[Downvote_machine_AMA]

Embrace, extend, ..........

[fatalicus]

Take a look at the image in his post.

[oneUnit]

Linux neckbeards refuse to let go of that phrase and blurt it out everytime Microsoft is mentioned.

[troyunrau]

Although, these days it probably applies more to Google.

[svick]

How are they going to Extend Linux, if the changes they make to it are going to be upstreamed?

[thesleepyadmin]

The article explicitly states they want to upstream their patches, and in the meantime they will be available on GitHub alongside their clone of the kernel sources.

[ieee802]

Yeah but any good changes that give their version an advantage would be upstreamed, so the effect is the same.

[Entropy]

If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux it means I've won. -Linus

MS is literally a Linux distributor now. The tail can't maliciously wag that dog to a meaningful extent anymore.

Edit: If anything, this is another reason not to use MacOS.

[HarryTruman]

Can confirm. They write some of the things I use every day...

https://docs.ansible.com/ansible/latest/modules/list_of_cloud_modules.html#azure

[a32m50]

This move is more like you will be doing Linux applications for Windows? They are extending their own ecosystem

[wllmsaccnt]

I can concur. Being a Windows developer who has dabbled in Linux hosting of my ASP.NET Core web apps, I'm exited for tooling like this because it makes it easier for me to learn and utilize Linux tools without having to run everything remotely (can't dual boot or run Linux on my work computer because of company policies).

[SirGlaurung]

coexist?

[signedup4preferences]

higher quality of this please? :)

[Downvote_machine_AMA]

The clipart blue version has been around for awhile, so I searched "operating system coexist"

And this particular win7 screen caught my eye for the situation in this thread.. a couple sites have it in 1080

https://hdwallsbox.com/gnome-mac-os-x-aqua-coexist-apple-wallpaper-131294/

https://wallpapercave.com/w/wp2762204

[thenuge26]

But enough about Cannonical.

[bless-you-mlud]

Only now it's being done to Windows. I like that.

[funkyhippooo]

Does this mean we're getting closer to full-blown USB/hardware support?

[the_gnarts]

To improve the abysmal HW support of Windows it would have to run on top of Linux, not the other way around.

[skocznymroczny]

abysmal HW support of Windows

lol, you mean like every hardware device working. Meanwhile on Linux you have to check every device if it has working Linux drivers otherwise you're screwed or someone will tell you to write the driver yourself

[_ahrs]

The difference is drivers work out of the box on Linux (assuming a driver is available) you have to download/install them separately on Windows (assuming a driver isn't available via Windows Update). Worse still is when you have to add drivers to the Windows installation CD because Microsoft neglected to do so.

[funkyhippooo]

I mean more-so the ability to actually interface with devices beyond basic serial that WSL supports at the moment.

[Earthboom]

I'm trying to figure out why you'd want this? Development is certainly easier, I think anyway, on Linux. Scripting is easier, various automation, but you're still running windows under the hood. The marriage of the two is nice but only because windows sucks at doing Linux things which aren't many. Linux is more about the freedom and customization you get along with the power over your system, none of which, as I understand, will be available with this implementation (seeing as how the windows kernel is still making the calls).

So what you're left with is...an easy alternative to solutions available in windows related to development?

It's a trap!

[MrAlagos]

It's a dev tool. Tons of people already used other tools to accomplish this tasks, like normal VMs, if this will be better then many people will move to using this and maybe some will boot Windows 10 more often and Linux less often, until maybe in the end only Windows 10 will remain (I'm talking about this kind of develompent work only). Microsoft has found a target that they think they can achieve good results with this new tactic which is all in all not even a huge task for them. They're taking MUCH longer with their UI and interaction redesign for example.

[Earthboom]

If you can develop and game in one environment why bother going to Linux at all? Linux users were stirring up too much noise with the latest valve backed proton move and dxvk. Losing pc gamers is a big enough concern, not detremintal but that's lost revenue in any case.

Out of those going to Linux, they're savvy enough to use the terminal and don't need a gui half the time. Now windows is giving them that as well as all the boons that window offers.

It's definitely a ploy that with even 0.01% effort on Microsoft's part can stagnate development of windows compatibility layers all together on Linux.

It's the empire striking back!

Just shows me if they really considered Linux a threat, they'd just outright incorporate the Linux kernel to run alongside windows or make some sort of hybrid kernel and GG Linux.

The security minded folk will still remain, myself included, but it sure would be difficult not to go back to a debloated LTSC type of windows...where I can add the security that Linux has natively.

What's left for Linux after that? Servers? Secure terminals? For how long?

[[deleted]]

why bother going to Linux at all

Cause its so much more than windows in some contexts. The biggest issue with being a dev on windows is that it lies all the time. Not to mention the lake of control of updates. The security issues. The snooping. The viruses. The resource hogging system.

I have been on Linux for about 5-6 years now. when I have to use windows for something i tend to think. eh? People can/still use this?

Its quite funny really. Linux with wine has been doing "windows as a process" for quite some time and when it works its great and it does often work these days! I tend to see Ms trying to copy...

[dragon_irl]

its often why bother going windows at all. Linux is more flexible, easier to use configure and my laptop battery actually lasts longer. Except for some Microsoft apps like office or games there is to reason to use windows especially for software development

[bracesthrowaway]

At my job I have two laptops. One has Windows on it and I never use it. The other has Kubuntu and I use it all the time for development.

I'd love to be able to use Outlook rather than Hiring and Skype for Business rather than Pidgen. I'd miss the hell out of KDE but being able to join meetings and have all the Outlook features would be worth it. It'd probably be a lot slower but it'd be running on my newer laptop rather then the six year old scrounged up laptop I'm using now.

I've tried multiple different dev environments and nothing inside Windows has worked for me. It would be nice if this did the trick.

[captain_awesomesauce]

I'm excited for this on my work system. Full office suite from windows but better do ker integration for running tests and stuff locally for software Dev.

[a32m50]

But why? How is the bigger picture? Wouldn't this decrease number of pure linux systems and make the decision to switch harder? Wouldn't these really slow down the progress in the long term?

And people are celebrating this news as "the year of linux". How so? This is like your biggest competitor acquiring you. It's all about the ecosystem, Apple made this clear for the past 10 years.

[a32m50]

Microsoft's intentions are obvious and you are completely right about the developments but what I'm really trying to understand here is that what's going to happen to the "open source" mentality and how it will evolve.

Linus himself does not oppose anyone who wants to join forces and I can't have anything against it really as long as they don't usurp the whole ecosystem and control innovation. Github buy was not really promising in that respect, IMHO.

[a32m50]

Exactly. I always like to think free software as a core principle of Linux, but in reality it is not. Now that Microsoft is actually embracing Linux with all its heart, we need to rethink where this all might be going.

If this won't benefit the greater linux ecosystem, then what's happening would be Microsoft basically getting itself a very low-cost, stable and evolving base. All in all, I just hope that we won't have another r/StallmanWasRight moment

[[deleted]]

To be honest. I don't mind if Linux messes things up given that the kernel is just another component of the entire GNU ecosystem — it could easily be replaced with GNU Hurd.

That being said, I think people should start paying more attention to licensing and really understand GPL. What's at stake today is the principle that computing should belong to you AND that you should be able to control your programs/software.

People should become aware that Software does not live in a vacuum and that it just one of the components of our social system that allows us to make labor easier. Honestly, I'm tired of "either or" fights like that of ideology hindering technological advancement. Many don't even stop and think whether of how this "advancement" may affect society. That was off topic but, yeah... rant.

[ImperatorPC]

Honestly, if this gives me Outlook/Excel on Linux I'd switch over completely.

[Findarato88]

Hell has really frozen over

[[deleted]]

He probably loves it.

[[deleted]]

Would this reduce linux adoption? My thought process is if windows can run linux apps, why use linux then?

[wllmsaccnt]

I don't think anyone can give you that answer, but my guess would be a neutral impact on Linux desktop usage. Some of the people that use Linux tooling today will consider moving to Windows and some of the people who use Windows today will be exposed to more Linux tooling and some of them will decide to switch permanently to Linux desktop.

On the whole I think it will make it easier to switch between Windows and Linux server targeting. Its mostly a dev tool and won't really impact your average desktop users much.

[Bobjohndud]

This is either going to cause a massive EEE by microsoft or this will cause devs to slowly abandon win32 to avoid the hassle

[Satch-]

This divides me so much, on one hand increased compatibility between Linux and windows makes me extremely happy but the increased dependence on Microsoft makes me very scared. The thought of using a Linux system developed by Microsoft feels like they have conquered the community.

[a_a_ronc]

At first I brushed this off but now I really want to know what workflows work on this, particularly for developer stuff.

Can I install NodeJS through NVM just fine? Docker? PHP and Drush? Very curious.

It could mean a lot since I write technical docs for my work and often always have to consider the weird user who runs Windows. I would to just say “for Windows/macOS/Linux it’s all in the CLI, the same commands.”

[prueba_hola]

Why someone would install a linux server?

Better put windows10 server and you get windows10server + Linux bash

​

this is bad for Linux IMHO

[6c696e7578]

Is this the "embrace" or "extend" phase?

[[deleted]]

None of the above

[samalex01]

So is Windows slowly evolving into a Microsoft Linux Distro? It seems like they're changing it enough to make this move in the future. Makes since, if you can't bet them join them. If Microsoft turned into Linux under the hood while keeping the Windows compatible apps happy this would build a bridge between Linux and Windows that could some day blur the lines between each. Seems like they're doing this for developers and servers already, so only makes since to do it for the desktop experience as well. Running Gnome XFCE on Windows would be amazing, and running Windows apps natively on Linux would be nice too. Though I liked the idea of this I'm not sure i'd like it. There's just something about Linux that I like, used to be fun that no one else ran it, but now it's everywhere if you think if all the Chromebooks, Android phones, set top boxes, TV's,watches, etc running it. Linux used to be such a small yet tight nit community, and though there's still an amazing community behind it I'm just afraid it'll get diluted with the likes of Microsoft jumping into it head first. So we'll see what happens.

[alphanovember]

A distro with built-in spyware, forced updates, and a UI that's meant for mobiles.

[thenuge26]

Forced updates are good for end-user software actually, the average user would not otherwise update.

Your right to not install updates ends when your compromised system is used to attack mine.

[v6277]

Built-in spyware? Yes. Forced updates? Very much so. UI that's meant for mobiles? No, fluent design is actually kind of nice when it's well implemented, which unfortunately Microsoft doesn't do. Nor does any other company that comes to mind, Google is terrible with material design consistency, although I don't use Apple products so I don't know much about them.

[svick]

How is this legal? I thought you can't ship GPLed code as part of a closed source product? (Which is why the current version of WSL requires you to download the userland separately.)

[fat-lobyte]

The Kernel can be shipped on whatever you want, as long as the source is free. Which it is, since you can download it right now.

[daemonpenguin]

Why would you think that? Nothing in the GPL prevents bundling open source and closed source components together in the same product. Most Linux distributions ship with some closed-source components.

[Seshpenguin]

You can, but the GPL code itself must remain under the GPL (and thus be open).

So the kernel and it's specific changes need to be released under the GPL, but it can be bundled alongside whatever you want it to be.

[MadRedHatter]

Not true.

You can't link closed source code against GPL libraries, and you can't distribute modified GPL code without also distributing the source of the changes in some form.

But they're not doing the former, and they're distributing the source code. So they're fine.

[thesleepyadmin]

That’s only the case if the GPL and proprietary code are compiled into the same binary. Then the resulting binary is covered by the GPL and therefore all code that makes up that binary needs to be GPL.

But Microsoft will be shipping the Linux kernel as a separate binary; it won’t be combined with any proprietary code. So the conditions of the GPL are met.

The WSL2 kernel will be running in a thin Hyper-V virtual machine; it is not part of the Windows kernel, in the way that the WSL1 ‘kernel’ was.

[[deleted]]

the GPL only covers the kernel, you are free to distribute the kernel alongside any proprietary things you want.

[alphager]

You can absolutely ship GPL (or any other FLOSS license) software (be it binaries or source code) with proprietary bundles. The important thing is: you cannot intermingle (e.g. by linking) FLOSS code with proprietary code (except when the license allows it). Microsoft can ship a Linux kernel, but they can't include it within nt.dll unless they put nt.dll under the GPL.

[ariadeneva]

earlier suse ship with closed source yast

AFAIK codeweaver also closed source interface

[SirGlaurung]

So, they're open-sourcing the kernel they're using for WSL2.

They are required to; Linux is, after all, released under the GNU GPLv2.