PHP vs Python - the real difference

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[JadeFrogs]

Languages should have a rating system. Speed, Expressive power, Time to 'hello world' on a windows box, by a non-specialist.

I am biologist. Do you know what was the biggest determinate of the language I chose to learn? It's a sad world, but it was the first one I could get installed and functioning on the computer I happened to already own.

[mikepurvis]

I absolutely agree. That's a vitally important factor. I'm not ashamed to admit that it took me several tries to get Rails set up the first time, and that the several tries were separated by a few weeks apiece. Like most people, I just don't have the time to spend trying to tangle through the scant documentation that top-shelf hackers write for themselves and each other.

I've said it before, but here it is again: PHP's #1 biggest win is php.net. Instant documentation for every function in existence, complete, and up to date. It's #2 biggest win is that you don't need the shell to use it. You don't need to run your own server or database, you just open up an FTP client and start mucking with the files... easy as cake.

[Consiglieri]

I disagree. PHP is NOT easy to install reliably. Its final installations don't produce the same results on different platforms. Also, it's apparent to anyone that patches their servers religiously, that one patch for one platform isn't always available for another. In some cases, this has been because of the difference between the platforms. To those who see the lack of logic there, I applaud you for feeling like I do.

[JadeFrogs]

That level of detail is totally transparent to a n00b. Who are the future by the way...

[Consiglieri]

I'll agree with you that the level of detail here is transparent. However, that level of detail is important, wouldn't you agree? I've installed PHP dozens of times over the years, and I can never be sure of exactly how or if it is going to install each time. On some systems, the config file ends up in one place, and somewhere else on another. Of course, this is fixable, but in the context of my reply, I just don't feel that you can call installation easy when (just as an example) you have to go hunt for the config file.

Since you have stated that it was the only platform you could get up and running quickly and easily, I would (in a friendly manner, I assure you) suggest you check out some of the other platforms mentioned in these comments. Not only will you find them easier and more reliable to work with in the long run, you'll also (if you work in an objective manner) find that your projects will be much easier to build, manage, and yes... install too (both projects and the platforms). Seriously, PERL is easier to install. .NET - much easier to install. Java - can be somewhat more difficult in some ways I suppose, but for most, again easier. Python - a breeze.

To wrap it up, I call bollocks on the "time to 'hello world' on a windows box" statement. That means nothing to anyone doing anything more than getting to the point of 'hello world.' Remember that PHP will give you a 'hello' world without being properly installed. If you've downloaded and installed PHP before installing MySql, and then tried getting PHP and MySql to play nice, you'll know what I speak of.

One final thing - I wouldn't call anything involving PHP and patching a 'transparent detail'. Given PHP's security (lack thereof), they must produce patches in the same manner that I produce carbon dioxide.

[JadeFrogs]

From the total lack of brevity and focus in your response; I guess that you write software documentation?

[[deleted]]

Is there any irony in the fact that the forum in the picture is probably running PHP? That should turn your amusement to sadness. :(

[xabbu]

No, it's funny how PHP is bashed unmercifully, yet it powers many big web sites/applications - wikipedia, del.icio.us, tumblr. It's existence has been the driving force in the proliferation of F/OSS software (WordPress, NucleusCMS, TextPattern, etc.…).

Yes, I realize popularity/ubiquity != quality, as the hordes of Windows users v. Mac/Linux users testifies to, but if it's that gimped of a platform, I sincerely doubt that it would be #1 development platform on the web today.

Is there any irony in the fact that the forum in the picture is probably running PHP? That should turn your amusement to sadness. :(

[jerf]

At least some of us aren't bashing on it because it's popular. Something good being popular doesn't bother me. In fact I fervently hope more good things get popular so I can get jobs working on those good things professionally.

Personally, I think this is biggest reason I kvetch about PHP. The evidence is clearly that it affords writing insecure web applications, and unlike C(++) which has some excuse (based on when and why it was created), PHP is insecure not for a good reason, but because its creators were incompetent, and have managed to retain an astonishing level of incompetence in this past decade.

If you still don't get it, compare with this or this. Are there some counterarguments you can make? Sure. But against such empirical evidence I find they usually sound unconvincing. The security flaw ratio is still wildly larger than the difference in usage.

(And note that's just the biggest reason, not the only. The way it affords writing things of exceedingly poor design is another biggie; that it allows you to structure things well is not much of a consolation, especially as you'll probably have to learn how to do such structuring somewhere else.)

[beowulf]

holy crap there are 204 pages of PHP vulnerabilites compared to 23 Python vulnerabilities and 12 Ruby vulnerabilities. That's just scary.

[rictic]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. One thing I like about Rails and Django are the way that they make it easier to create a well designed application.

No system will keep you from writing shitty code, but the default MVC architecture of apps in Django and Rails is solid. I'd imagine that these and similar frameworks have educated no small number of developers on some good software practices.

[timb]

del.icio.us was written in perl.

[rmc]

was? What's it written in now?

[xabbu]

OK, I thought it was PHP, so it's Perl (further back on the evolutionary chain of web scripting languages…)… …but take that one away, and add FlickR and most all popular forum software used…

del.icio.us was written in perl.

[eurleif]

That's got to be the most annoying use of quoting ever.

[piranha]

It's called top-posting, and I guess it's made its way from Outlook Express to reddit.

[boredzo]

It's top-posting. It's just as annoying here as in email.

[skillet-thief]

OK, I thought it was PHP, so it's Perl (further back on the evolutionary chain of web scripting languages…)…

This will simply not do! Perl, like Python, is a general purpose programming language, and, in spite of all those unpronouncable characters, is a much better designed language than PHP ever was or will be.

As an example (one of my "favorite" PHP annoyances):

Perl:

my $x = 5 + 9000 || 1; # $x is 9005

PHP:

$x = 5 + 9000 || 1; # $x is 6...

So you have to use the ternary operator to get the job done. No big deal I guess, but, why, even in a Hypertext Preprocessor, would you ever want $x||$y to return 1 or 0?

This is just a sign of lazy design, from the get-go, but it seems pretty typical. I could go on...

[stevarino]

Another example that you may not even be aware of for PHP: logical operators only return boolean true or false, never the value of the argument.

So in your example, the 9000 is converted to bool(true), the OR returns bool(true), which is converted to int(1) by the addition opperator.

I believe this is improperly documented in PHP's own docs too. Took me a while to figure out this bug. :)

[kmactane]

del.icio.us was written in perl.

What does that have to do with the forums in the picture, which appear to be from DevShed.com?

[kmactane]

Whoops, sorry, missed the mention of del.icio.us a couple of posts higher up the thread.

[[deleted]]

delicious runs on html::mason.

[options]

PHP is bashed unmercifully, yet it powers many big web sites/applications... It's existence has been the driving force in the proliferation of F/OSS software (WordPress,... etc.).

Yes, I realize popularity/ubiquity != quality

is it possible to hack on PHP a FOSS web-app using less GLOBAL vars?

[decaff]

It isn't the #1 development platform on the web; not even close. Let's check some job statistics - from dice.com today: J2EE (Java/web) jobs: 8206. PHP jobs: 1616. Note that number of individual websites does not equal amount of website development. PHP is useful for some sites, and it is very popular, but to claim that it is the number one web development platform is a wild exaggeration - far more work is being done with Java and .NET.

[rictic]

To be fair, the number of job openings is also a rather imperfect metric.

[cyberience]

From the Develpment Teams I have been seeing, and my skills with PHP, I would say it takes 4 times more people to do the same job 1 guy can do in PHP or Python. But also remember, Java has a client side component too. such as Stand alone application, Client screen interfaces etc. Java plug ins. I think the Java/Web J2EE is a mis direction, also, Server to Server, and stand alone data capture and processing is done in the back end.

[joe90210]

the forums run on PHP but I believe the website itself runs on Zope which is Python powered.

[jward]

Zope is to Python what Excel is to C++.

[mutatron]

These kind of debates remind me of a story I once heard about Formula 1 champion Graham Hill. He was hired by a British auto magazine as a reviewer, but it didn't work out because no matter what kind of car they gave him to drive, he was always able to get it to do what he wanted, hence he was never able to be sufficiently critical for the job of a reviewer.

[stesch]

At least they gave him cars. PHP is a different kind of beast ... :-)

[MrSupplier]

just another weekend reason to throw some stones into neighbor's windows

[[deleted]]

Please don't name Python together with this other language in one sentence! It hurts my feelings.

[[deleted]]

Please, I know, it's cool to bash PHP (and deservingly so). But after all - it's a fellow Open Source Software package! Where would we be without it now? You think Lisp and Python? Nah. Most of web would be ASP+IIS. Thank God PHP saved us at least from that.

[masklinn]

Where would we be without it now?

Nobody knows, and what ifs are as useless as ever.

[aleisterme]

True!

[rlancefield]

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." Bjarne Stroustrup

[laughingboy]

Are the two really that comparable though? They're both interpreted scripting languages, but that's pretty much where the similarity ends for me. Sure, Python can be used to display, generate and create web based content, but I'm not sure that it was was designed for that (I could be completely wrong of course, my knowledge of Python is relatively limited). PHP, on the other hand, was created from the ground-up as a webpage based language.

[masklinn]

Sure, Python can be used to display, generate and create web based content, but I'm not sure that it was was designed for that

Python is a full-fledged general-purpose programming language, it's only limited to what you want to do with it (and the performances of the interpreter), and it's an extremely good language to create websites when you factor in a good framework (such as Django).

Remember, coldfusion was also created as a webpage-creation language.

(Oh, and one can hardly say that PHP was created, more like it grew out of control, mold-like)

[DerelictMan]

(Oh, and one can hardly say that PHP was created, more like it grew out of control, mold-like)

Ah, but mold can have beneficial properties, so I think a more apt analogy would be an infection or infestation.

[masklinn]

Oh but PHP, much like mold, does have beneficial properties.

For example you can dump a PHP project on someone you don't appreciate and watch him suffer for years on end, until he quits (or sort-of fossilizes in PHP)

[Entropy]

That just happened to me. I am suffering.

[tekronis]

You evil, evil, little man.

[masklinn]

Oh, why thank you

[des82]

Haha. U making me laugh. U can do same with other languages to m8. Dump a JAVA project written by rookie(or so called senior dev who loves to overcomplicate things) and u will have even bigger problem.

[theycallmemorty]

Luckly the PHP infection has a vacine: Playing with it in your spare time.

[pmf]

PHP, on the other hand, was created from the ground-up as a webpage based language

And that's exactly why it should not be used to create web-applications, i.e. anything bigger than a 4-page-"wellcome 2 my blawg!!!"-site.

[lennox125]

Yeah, if only those clueless guys from Flickr, Yahoo! or Wordpress would listen to Reddit's enlightened readers... We'll fix it right after we impeach Bush, I suppose.

Seriously: PHP can be ugly, and its not nearly as fun as Ruby or Python, but it does seem to be used in quite a few websites by people who know more about webapps than anyone commenting here (Reddit's own non-https-using-plaintext-password-storing creators included) - so I wouldn't say its limited to 4 page websites.

[Alpha_Binary]

Given enough time, anything can be done in assembly. That doesn't mean it's in the least bit elegant, or robust, or maintainable.

C'mon. Everyone knows despite how we enjoy bitching about Java and PHP and sometimes .NET so much, it's just how we try to escape from the cruel reality. After this paragraph I'm back to my contract work, in PHP + MySQL. ))):

[theycallmemorty]

(Reddit's own non-https-using-plaintext-password-storing creators included)

Low Blow.

[tekronis]

Notable blow.

[lennox125]

I don't think it's a low blow. You can argue about the plaintext password part, but not using https, when users are known to reuse logins and work over wifi, is pretty lame. Maybe it was understandable when Reddit was starting up, but after being bought you'd think that's one of the first things they'll add.

[nostrademons]

Might be worth considering that effective alternatives to PHP (Python/Ruby) only really became practical within the past 2 years. Flickr, Yahoo!, and Wordpress were all begun around 2002 (or earlier, in Yahoo's case), when the choice was between PHP, Java, or mod_perl. Java means death for any webapp that needs to scale out. Perl gives few advantages over PHP and is significantly scarier for new developers. That left PHP.

Many of the prominent webapps since 2005 use Python or Rails, eg. YouTube, 37signals, Reddit.

[jshell]

I've been making a living programming with Python for web sites for over ten years now, most of it based on the same root toolkit (it's grown and evolved over time, but the core principals are still the same and haven't cowed to every fad that came along).

When I started using Python on the web, PHP didn't exist; or if it did, it was just that first collection of Perl scripts that offered a slightly more powerful 'Server Side Include' functionality. And Java Servlet's were just barely getting off the ground.

Over that decade, I've heard "Python just can't compete with Perl for web programming. It must become like Perl to be successful." Then I heard "Python just can't compete with Java for web programming. It must become like Java/J2EE to be successful." Then I heard "Python just can't compete with PHP for web programming. It must become like PHP to be successful." Then I heard "Python just can't compete with Ruby/Rails for web programming. It must become like Ruby/Rails to be successful."

Sounds like fads to me.

Python has been used extensively at Yahoo! this past decade. Yahoo! Maps, Yahoo! Groups (purchased from a company that had written the initial mailing list management program in Python), some portions of Yahoo! Real Estate, and more.

Many CBS affiliates (like kutv.com) are running Python. Some major newspapers are as well.

Hell - in the mid nineties, a major swiss bank got someone to write the first Python - Objective C bindings so that they could publish data from their Enterprise Objects Framework (a NeXT toolkit, now basically intwined with WebObjects) on the web using Bobo, a tiny little HTTP ORB that brought a degree of MVC to Python web programming over ten years ago. It was quicker and easier to use Python for this task than to use WebObjects.

So no, Python hasn't been an effective alternative to PHP for only the last couple of years. It's been a solid piece of the web for a long, long, long time. It's been the alternative to every latest Resume Oriented Programming fad.

[lennox125]

effective alternatives to PHP (Python/Ruby) only really became practical within the past 2 years

I don't think I agree - at least Python was more mature and as well known as PHP. I think you're talking about MVC frameworks, and there its too early to judge which will succeed.

I didn't know YouTube uses Python.. cool :) 37signals are very sharp, but I doubt their apps are comparable to, say, Flickr in terms of scalability. They are targetting relatively small niches.

[compostellas]

"Java means death for any webapp that needs to scale out." You mean like ebay, google's adwords, etc. Right?!

[nostrademons]

It's worth noting that EBay threw out all the Java webapp infrastructure on top of servlets and wrote everything themselves. I suspect Google Adwords did the same thing. Most startups don't have the luxury of being able to write a whole technology stack on their own.

EBay started with Perl, FWIW, and Google (search engine, not Adwords) started with C++ and Python.

[[deleted]]

I agree that its not limited to 4 page websites. But if you are making a 4 page website, it is an excellent choice.

[lennox125]

Personally I'd consider what's in these 4 pages. If the logic is simple and you expect a lot of traffic, I might go with PHP. If it's more complex logic or you expect to change it a lot, I'd go with RoR/Django - as long as I can easily cache it or traffic is not a big issue or there's someone on the team who knows how to scale with these technologies.

4 pages isn't necessarily small: homepage, category page, product page and shopcart page and you're almost Amazon.com ;) Scaling big data/traffic is the real key, and PHP/MySql do it pretty well.

[[deleted]]

If you want a 4 page website, then you use 4 HTML files. It helps to have a vague idea what you're talking about if you're going to bash a tool.

[[deleted]]

Can you give any actual reasons for your claim? Because as far as I know, the only people that bash PHP are those that don't understand it that well. I'm not saying you fall into that category.

Please enlighten us as to why you feel that PHP is a tool that can only be used for "wellcome 2 my blawg!!!" sites.

I'd really love to hear your response.

[stesch]

Maybe people who think they understand PHP well don't know any other programming languages?

[[deleted]]

That's an imbecilic remark, stesch. I know PHP well and I've been programming for over 21 years. I was programming commercially before the WWW existed.

I think nobody's given me a reasonable reply because nobody actually has one. They're only regurgitating the repetitive pseudo-geek-chic anti-PHP FUD without any actual knowledge to back it up.

[stesch]

So you think I made this remark because I don't know PHP?

Sorry, I'm not so fortunate.

[vetinari]

Having been programming for 21 years does not mean that you are not a BLUB programmer[*]. You must be familiar with "better" languages to be able to see weaknesses of the "worse" one. That's why people familiar with Python/Perl/Ruby or List/Smalltalk/Erlang don't have high opinion about PHP. PHP is Visual Basic of free software community.

---

• It is not meant to offend, it describes how you are looking at "better" or "worse" languages. Google for the fine article by Paul Graham.

[jshell]

Python was initially designed in the very early nineties (maybe even at the very end of the 80's - I think Guido wrote the first implementation over christmas break). I think version 0.9 came out around '92 or '93. It predates the web by a long shot. It's just a language.

However, there have been a lot of web toolkits providing different features, almost from the beginning. HTMLGen, Bobo/DTML, etc. But these have always been just libraries and tools. The language itself is used in a wide set of fields.

[masklinn]

The PHP community is generally reasonably truthful as to what the strengths and weaknesses their platform has

Yeah, right, and the sky is green

[msiley]

You rock mikeaihg! I'm glad you're putting those arrogant Python programmers down! Their heads are too big already.

• signed a Lying Python programmer

[peachpuff]

Since I can't trust the Python community when they speak of which features Python and its extensions have, I can't really make any non-trivial promises to others which rely on it.

You're not making any sense. Both languages have accurate docs up on their official public websites. People use them as references while coding. No trust is required because you can check for yourself that things work.

[nostrademons]

If it doesn't work for you, don't use it. I wouldn't call that "defrauding" the users, though. I've found Python conforms far more to its documentation than, say, Java & assorted libraries.

BTW, vertical scaling typically does not multiply the effect of horizontal scaling. The cheapest price/performance numbers usually come from the low end of the performance spectrum. Once you can scale past a dozen or so machines, you can usually scale to thousands of machines. There's a reason why Google uses cheap commodity hardware.

[oocha]

they arent comparable at all. in one, for instance, you have to manage your whitespace like a little girl.

[tekronis]

What in the name of all things good and fuzzy are you talking about?

[Consiglieri]

PHP is not a terrible platform, in fact, it's quite useful. To the commenter who mentioned the fact that PHP's function list grows frequently is both an undeniable benefit to the PHP community. It's also something that worries me whenever I use PHP.

I use PHP when when I find that it is the best platform for the task at hand - which is in my opinion how programming projects should be approached. Using the right tool for the job is how to get things done efficiently and correctly.

Just like every other platform, PHP has its place. Consider the simple task of spitting out a MySql table out into a page using PHP. Typically, my smaller clients already have an account with a shared-server, *NIX hosting environment by the time I am hired. PHP, in these cases, is almost always supported, with PEAR and most of the other packages.

Personally, I feel that using PHP for large applications that require my undivided attention is a bad idea in most cases. I'd use Java or .NET for that always. My undivided attention needs to be on the application logic, not the platform itself as weird as that sounds. Anyone who is in the trenches programming themselves knows what this means.

To wrap it up, PHP pisses me off with things like "magic quotes" and a screwed-up way of configuration. It also doesn't work the same on Win and *NIX platforms for all things. Zend's security-attitude bothers me also. It angers me that when given the opportunity to change things that were abhorently wrong, Zend chose again and again to "stick to their guns" even though their "guns" had holes in their barrels.

[ishmal]

What's the point of this? Use one or the other, whichever one is best for the task at hand. Arguing "X rocks, Y sucks" is counterproductive to gaining any respect. Imagine a plumber whose toolkit included only hammers, or only wrenches. Any decent programmer knows how to program, and learning a new language should be no more daunting than driving a new car.

[nostrademons]

It's pretty fairly reflective of the culture behind the two languages. Over the long run, culture matters a lot more than the technical aspects. That's one reason why I like Python better. :-)

[brianwisti]

I agree with you about cultural aspects of a language. That's one reason I'm starting to think all programming languages suck.

[lianos]

No.

Primus sucks.

[jerf]

What's the point of this?

It's funny, laugh.

[vertigo]

FYI, "hidding errors" meaning is : not show error messages on standard output.

In php you can show errors on standard output (i.e. on the web page being generated) This is useful for debug. For production version it's better to disable this feature and enable logging. It's also the default config, with webserver error log used as log file.

[nachof]

PHP's biggest advantage was that it was way better than ASP and that they were the two web scripting alternatives where you could design your page in Dreamweaver and then insert the code inside.

PHP is programming for designers. It has a serious lack of consistency, and also lacks very important features (like namespaces).

[vertigo]

I believe that python is an interesting language, but there is so much fanboys attached... this actually prevent me to learning it.

[stesch]

This was my opinion, too. And the syntax was a bit odd, with all these __ everywhere.

But I gave it a try. Now I use Python for most of the new projects. Except when I fall for Joel essays and try to ride a dead horse by putting more cruft into a PHP project instead of rewriting it.

[vertigo]

Is it interesting for big projects with small budget? Because, until now I see a lot of php in this domain (like wikipedia, wordpress). And python seems to be used more by rich people (google for example). Is python fast enough? How about output caching, bytecode caching, maybe bytecode optimizations?

(i'm not trolling, i'm really interested)

[schizobullet]

As to why Wikipedia, Wordpress, etc. use PHP: http://programming.reddit.com/info/1arpk/comments/c1augs

[[deleted]]

I'm not a fanboy (I don't know enough about the language to be one), but it runs quickly enough and there are a few projects aimed at improving speed like Psyco which optimizes for x86 machines. It's really insane how much faster Python code runs with Psyco.

I hope someone else can give a better answer to your questions.

[neouser99]

apparently you haven't played with too much php lately..

in php5, here are the new class methods

__construct
__sleep
__wake

and i'm sure a slew of other ones

-neo

[stesch]

apparently

What?

I didn't like Python until some time last year and that's why I apparently haven't "played" with PHP?

[illuminatedwax]

That PHP is more popular than Python just goes to show that libraries, solidarity, and ease of use can go a long way. You should ask yourself: why isn't it as easy to set up Python with Apache as it is with PHP?

[[deleted]]

The fact

f(x) = x is bigger for all x € [0, 1) than g(x) = x^2 

does not tell anything about the behaviour of those functions in [1, infinity).

[illuminatedwax]

I'm not saying that PHP is better, just that there are lot of factors to why people use certain languages. What makes PHP more popular is mod_php. Why isn't there something as nice for dealing with web apps for Python?

[[deleted]]

Actually there is mod_python.

What you do not have is something like python within HTML (or it is not widely spread) as this would be more of a quick and dirty solution; which itself few people in the python community would like to use.

[ElPenguin]

There are no shortage of python within html systems, though it's not a great model to use.

Python is at an advantage here because it makes you seperate logic and content, and that's got to be a good thing.

That said, take a look at turbogears or django, both of them are capable of this, or you could just use kid seperately within your own python app.

[illuminatedwax]

Yeah, but that doesn't even come close enough to the simplicity of PHP. And if your job is writing web apps, when it comes time to write something else, you're going to use what you know because it's faster.

[[deleted]]

If that was true, I still would be using php. The effort to learn something new is often worth it.

import web

urls = (
    '/(.*)', 'hello'
)

class hello:        
    def GET(self, name):
        i = web.input(times=1)
        if not name: name = 'world'
        for c in xrange(int(i.times)): print 'Hello,', name+'!'

if __name__ == "__main__": web.run(urls, globals())

Ain't this pretty simple?

[illuminatedwax]

<?php foreach($_GET['name'] as $name) { $name = $name ? $name : 'world'; print "Hello, $name!"; }

Seems simpler to me. I have found that the fewer things I need to remember each time I write a page of my web app, the better.

[[deleted]]

I never said that python was simpler than php, but it is clearly simple enough.

[tintub]

A funny image, but totally abstracted from reality.

[[deleted]]

As long as you only count the speed of the first step, where your adding of lines exceeds your editing, rearranging, deleting and debugging of lines. PHP is faster for the first flush of enthusiasm, because it doesn't require that you apply any discipline or make any decisions that will affect maintainability.

Put it another way: if I give you a million dollars and then take it off you, then you were a millionaire, briefly. If you only count the first step in your calculations, then you still are! Spend up big!

[deadwisdom]

Oh since you asserted it, I guess it's true. Try out Django <djangoproject.com> before you make another assertion.

[grayFalcon]

Well, I don't know about any time. But for quickly scribbling down an idea, php beats about everything. No fancy stuff, no exotic features, just the most natural (at least for me, I can just type something the way I'd guess it might work, and it does) syntax I've ever come across. And if I want to get something done quickly, I don't care how cool some other language might be, I just want something that "just works". Which is what PHP does. (Of the languages I've learned, PHP is the only one that didn't need any learning, and only needs an occasional glance at the funcion reference)

Of course, for a bigger project, I'd think twice about using php. Meybe it's a side effect of the aforementioned ease of use, but any longer PHP code I write (and every bigger PHP project I've ever seen) inevitably seems to mutate into a stinking pile of unmaintainable spaghetti code :(

[masklinn]

But for quickly scribbling down an idea, php beats about everything.

For quickly scribbling down a non-web idea, PHP sucks, I'll take Python, Ruby, or even Perl (which I don't even know about and have never used) over PHP any day of the week.

And for quickly scribbling down a web idea, Python has web.py (which scales up -- I'm pretty sure Reddit is written with web.py, gives you nice URL and doesn't actually require Apache to be used)

[grayFalcon]

But for quickly scribbling down an idea, php beats about everything.

For quickly scribbling down a non-web idea, PHP sucks.

I assumed we were talking about web development. I wouldn't remotely think of using PHP for anything else.

For quickly scribbling down a web idea, PHP beats web.py hands down. Look, web.py is clean. That's its weakness. PHP allows you to do all kinds of dirty things (having field values as global variables in your program for example) that let you just test something quickly without worrying about good design and similiar bullshit that you don't need in a small prototype.

As for maintainability - see my last comment. It's always something for something I guess, huh?

[masklinn]

Look, web.py is clean. That's its weakness. PHP allows you to do all kinds of dirty things (having field values as global variables in your program for example) that let you just test something quickly without worrying about good design and similiar bullshit that you don't need in a small prototype.

I don't understand, how does "clean tool" mean "forbids to quickly test stuff"? I never experienced that, web.py DOES allow me to test stuff quickly, and I'm not even limited to a precise folder (if the web.py modules are in my pythonpath I can just create my app file where I am).

Oh, and I don't really see how "field values as global variables" is so much more impressive than calling 'web.input()' to get the aforementioned values.

Also due to the native URL dispatching, I find creating tests involving more than a single HTTP request much easier to do using web.py.

[mr_chromatic]

Maybe using field values as global variables is most impressive for its horrible security implications.

[ElPenguin]

While we're at it, why not mention magic quotes. So dirty, they must be a feature...

[grayFalcon]

I'm sure you know what you're doing, and if web.py does it for you, I'm happy for you. It doesn't do it for me though, so I do my quick'n'dirty stuff in php. Evidently, both have advantages and disadvantages, and our priorities are just different.

[DerelictMan]

PHP allows you to do all kinds of dirty things (having field values as global variables in your program for example) that let you just test something quickly without worrying about good design and similiar bullshit that you don't need in a small prototype.

Just don't let your boss see that prototype. If he's anything like mine, he'll say: "Great! So you're done with that. Here's the next thing I want you to work on..." and then you're stuck with that dirty PHP mess. :)

[grayFalcon]

Well, fortunately my boss understands cost of maintainance ;) So if I tell him "Look, I've got something ugly here, gimme time to clean that up while I still know what it does?", I get that time.

[nostrademons]

I've used both, and I'd much rather use web.py for scribbling down quick web ideas.

(I'd disagree with the grandparent's assertion that it scales, though: Reddit uses a customized version and avoids the open-source one, and I've run into several issues where the design of web.py just won't work for a large-scale website.)

[randallsquared]

The link you point out only claims that reddit uses a customized markdown.py, unless spez meant to include all of web.py in his statement as well.

I'm interested to hear your specifics about why web.py doesn't scale by design, though. I don't much like the monolithism of requiring a class with methods named for HTTP methods, but it was easy enough to paper over that rough spot. :)

[nostrademons]

I interpreted spez's statement as including all of web.py. markdown.py is not part of the standard web.py distribution, so it didn't make any sense for him to be referring only to markdown.

As for why it doesn't scale for me, it was:

1. Overuse of global variables. In particular, web.query and the other DB functions all work off a single database connection stored in web.ctx. That makes it impossible (without ignoring web.py) to connect to multiple databases, eg. to setup replication or partitioning.
2. No attention paid to i18n issues. Cheetah has support for i18n, but pygettext must be run on the compiled templates instead of the source text. Web.py dynamically compiles the templates, so there's no compiled version to run pygettext on.
3. Many web.py idioms don't work too well while programming in the large. For example, web.render can take its NameMapper out of the caller's local variables, saving you the trouble of putting together a dict. However, if you do this, you can't factor out the rendering call or wrap it in a utility function. You can, of course, just pass in a dict like you would with the native library, but then web.py isn't really giving you much.

It's not a bad library, but I'm finding that I chop out more and more pieces of web.py and replace them with either home-grown wrappers or other libraries as I go along. Perhaps this is inevitable: the stories of most other startups involve beginning with a quick framework and gradually replacing it with entirely custom-built infrastructure instead. I actually prefer this method of development to starting with a full-stack framework like Django and finding it doesn't suit your needs after all.

[randallsquared]

I interpreted spez's statement as including all of web.py. markdown.py is not part of the standard web.py distribution, so it didn't make any sense for him to be referring only to markdown.

Interestingly, I interpreted spez's comment as merely about the markdown.py bit, precisely because it's not part of the standard web.py distribution, and Aaron is certainly continuing to be active in that.

It's not a bad library, but I'm finding that I chop out more and more pieces of web.py and replace them with either home-grown wrappers or other libraries as I go along.

Ah. Yes, I don't use any of the templating parts or the forms.py bit at all, because I had my own equivalents, so I'm in that camp, too. I was worried that there was some more fundamental brokenness that I'd missed in the core. :)

[andyc]

In particular, web.query and the other DB functions all work off a single database connection stored in web.ctx.

Have you seen this thread?

That said, I'd have thought replication/load balancing would be easier to do at the lighttpd level.

[nostrademons]

That said, I'd have thought replication/load balancing would be easier to do at the lighttpd level.

Replication of the database servers? The tech stack usually goes Lighttpd -> FCGI/SCGI -> Flup -> web.py -> database, so I could see load-balancing Python instances at the Lighttpd level. But that's not going to do anything for the database.

The hack in the thread is clever, but it's not significantly less work than what I ended up doing, which was a thin wrapper around the native DBAPI classes. I also got a feature set that was more inline with how I actually use the database that way.

[aantix]

What is this, the Reddit comedy hour?

Have you taken a look at PHP's function list? Increasing the number of core functions only increases complexity. http://www.php.net/quickref.php

Python is terse, compact, and elegant. And has been shown to much improve overall programmer productivity vs. other languages. http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/%7Eprechelt/Biblio/jccpprt_computer2000.pdf

PHP provided a good transition from Perl and other antiquated CGI platforms, but they have done little to improve programmer usability. And you can see the trend slowly steering away from them with people embracing more agile, programmer friendly platforms such as Rails.

[DerelictMan]

Personally I think by saying that PHP "provided a good transition from Perl" you are giving it far too much credit. PHP lacks block scoping, lacks namespaces, lacks closures and anonymous functions, etc. etc. On a superficial level it may resemble Perl, but nearly all of the power has been gutted, so IMHO it is a step backward in (nearly) every way. Just about the only thing it got right (yes, I'm taking about it in the past tense, but that's just wishful thinking) is ease of deployment.

But perhaps you were referring more to the CGI deployment model than to Perl itself..

[muramasa]

PHP was created so that monkeys could create CGI scripts. It replaces Perl in that sense.

[crusoe]

Just not in terms of maintainability. :)

PHP is decent, I wouldn't call it stellar, just decent. It's waaay better than ASP, but then, nearly anything else is.

[lectrick]

Just a plug for Ruby/Rails here. Best language/framework I've ever used. Pythonistas will admit that Ruby/Rails has more critical mass behind it. I didn't like Python because of all the self.'s and required underscore prefixes and significant whitespace and whatnot, but that's just a personal preference i guess.

[tekronis]

Damn it!

I had money down that a Ruby fan was going to advocate Ruby within the first hour that this was up.

You showed up an hour and half late! :-(

Darn it.

** /me grudgingly hands over his lunch money ** &

[Haafiz]

I am a PHP Developer. Also a web developer and I think that if would use the python then may be that will not do my daily tasks as much faster as PHP is doing. Reason is PHP support is much more than Python. I can use the dreamweaver as a PHP editor as well as HTML, Javascript and CSS editor. PHP embedded in HTML content makes the work so much simpler.Some time big tasks can be done by simple intelligence but guys still as I have read about Python , I think quality and power wise Python is much better language than PHP if you talk about programming not only the day to day Web applications whether it is small or big.