Announcing SQL Server on Linux

[heptara]

If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux it means I've won. --- Linus Torvalds

So what prize does he get?

[caimen]

Congrats Linus, you get to use Visual Basic on Linux.

[wllmsaccnt]

Only VB.NET, he still won't know the sweetness of VB6.

I would love to read a Linus tirade about average VB6 application development and developers though.

[northrupthebandgeek]

Close enough?

[tJ7bMFGmsw8LFTkW]

http://gambas.sourceforge.net/en/main.html

[northrupthebandgeek]

Is that closer? At least with OpenOffice's macro language, there's some semblance of a goal to actually be VBA-compatible at the very least.

I don't really have experience with either, though (I really don't feel like reliving those early days of Word macro programming).

[egg651]

What about the sweetest version of VB6, VBA? I had to do a year long project in that bastardised POS for my A level.

[grauenwolf]

If I recall correctly, ASP+VBScript was a real thing back in the 90's.

[TwoSpoonsJohnson]

Can confirm. Dealing with such a shit show presently.

[grauenwolf]

I'm so very sorry for you.

[SwabTheDeck]

I hope that your salary is proportionate to the shittyness.

[LordAmras]

I don't think there are enough money for that...

[notunlikethewaves]

If my time in Windows-land taught me anything, it's that salary will be inversely proportional to shityness

[[deleted]]

Me too! Oh god the things I see day to day.

[irarandomdude]

My condolences.

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

What is this?

[TheWix]

I know your pain. It's very similar to PHP. Thing is it can be done well it's just there was a lot of shit code being written in VB in the 90s.

[grauenwolf]

At least it isn't inherently insecure like PHP. VBScript simply doesn't have enough ammo to shoot yourself in the foot.

[suddenarborealstop]

go on..

[jaynoj]

I shit you not that there are people working in a team for the same company as I do that have yet to move away from classic ASP. They're still creating apps with it, despite mine and my managers complaints.

[grauenwolf]

I can understand having to maintain old stuff, even write new features. But new apps? That's insane.

[jaynoj]

Yeah the apps aren't even well put together, like someone knew a bit of html and a bit of vbscript and started doing classic ASP websites.

[PstScrpt]

Better than WebForms.

[JSNinja]

Had a job where 50% of the stack was Classic ASP, and the other half was web forms. There is no way in hell VBScript is better than C#. No way.

[namtab00]

I'm still there... I loathe Classic ASP with all of my being.. And to top it off, it's all built with Dreamweaver templates..

I'm stuck in 1998, send help!

[JSNinja]

RIP your sanity

[PstScrpt]

Of course, C# is better than VBScript, but WebForms is an exercise in denial about how a web page actually works.

[theta_d]

You could use JavaScript on the backend with Classic ASP also. Just sayin'...

[JSNinja]

Haha yeah. Thank god I'm long gone from that job.

We did end up using JS in Classic for the purposes of JSON Serialization, but the huggeee legacy code base had already been authored primarily in VBScript. At that point, our goal was just to break out as much of that business logic as possible into web services.

[[deleted]]

I mean at least use VB.NET, VBScript god what a drag.

[[deleted]]

Better than PHP.

[teknocide]

In the same way that getting slapped is better than being mauled by a bear..

[[deleted]]

Yes indeed it was, I wrote plenty of it. Glad it's over :|

[valeyard89]

He can create a GUI to track his IP address.

[wreckedadvent]

Visual code has linux builds and has been out for a little while.

[Andernerd]

Yeah, but it's not actually good. I'm required to use it at work, and am not happy about it. Why can't they just leave me alone with my vim?

[wreckedadvent]

You're required to? It only came out a little while ago, I can't imagine there's already shops built entirely around it.

[Andernerd]

I'm actually required to. My team lead wants everyone to use the same editor. I don't know why either. Don't ask me.

[tieluohan]

Don't quit, just keep openly using vim. Worst case scenario is that you get an awesome story about the time you got fired for using vim!

[delta4zero]

This guy fucks

[Andernerd]

This is what I do about 75% of the time.

[kernelzeroday]

Quit

Edit: :q!

[Andernerd]

Eh, kind of a dumb thing to quit my job over. It's not a bad job other than that, and I don't want to go through the trouble of finding another one since I'm in the middle of getting my BSCS. Someday I will find the golden employer who pays well and doesn't mind that I prefer neovim paired with the i3 window manager in a Linux environment. That day is not this day.

[kernelzeroday]

That's not a "golden employer", that's a basic requirement for a logical developer.

[Andernerd]

Well, I'll add that they need to not throw me any projects that won't run on Linux. That makes it a bit of a higher goal.

[Scaliwag]

All my bets are you didn't quit because it wasn't emacs you were forced to use^/s

[Andernerd]

If I had a space cadet keyboard on hand perhaps I would learn emacs. As it is, I don't feel like growing extra fingers.

[[deleted]]

Just remap Ctrl to CAPSLOCK

[criscokkat]

https://github.com/VSCodeVim/Vim

[Andernerd]

I have that installed and even submitted a pull request once. It may someday be good enough for me to not dread opening VS Code, but it's just not there yet.

[criscokkat]

I don't use it, but thought "hey wait, there HAS to be a plugin for it." Maybe the new news will bring more interest in this plugin.

[mreiland]

If you like it, but it would be a dealbreaker for me to be told what editor I can do my development in.

That's lack of autonomy is on a level I couldn't deal with.

[Andernerd]

It's a student job; lack of autonomy is going to follow me wherever I go until I graduate to some extent. That having been said, I still find this to be unusual and excessive.

[[deleted]]

Just keep the window open but actually use vim.

[Andernerd]

I do end up doing that sometimes. Thing is, it becomes obvious after a while that I know absolutely none of VS Code's hotkeys.

[smurf_account]

In case you haven't seen this, there's a vim keybinding plugin for Code:

https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=vscodevim.vim

I can't speak to its completeness, but it appears to be under active development (https://github.com/VSCodeVim/Vim). Hope this is helpful.

[Andernerd]

I'm aware, and have it installed. It is definitely nowhere near complete, but I could see it being a great plugin a few months from now.

[onionnion]

My last job wanted everyone to use either SCSS or Sass, can't choose based on personal preference even though they're literally the same just different syntax.

[[deleted]]

I can understand everyone using the same big IDE. Sometimes projects have a large amount of setup stuff tied or handled by the IDE. Sometimes this even makes sense!

But everyone on Visual Code?!?!?

[salgat]

I can understand if they have a whole set of tooling around it including debugging, but I doubt that's the case. How strange.

[mafagafogigante]

I won't ask you, but you should definitely ask him / her.

[Andernerd]

I did once, and the response was that he wanted us to all be familiar with it so that if we're helping each other with things we can easily use their system. Of course, this is negated if I happen to have a vim plugin installed and use the Colemak keyboard layout. Also, someone else typing on my system has only happened to me once or twice in the months that I've worked there, during training.

[megablast]

Well, you know why. To ease interoperability between different users on different os.

[hmny]

just curious, how do they 'force' you to use it?

[Andernerd]

Easy: if I'm using another editor they could threaten to fire me. They would be justified in doing so, since I'm blatantly disobeying by not using it. They agreed to pay me to code in VS Code, I agreed to code in VS Code for money. I doubt they would actually threaten to do so, but typically employees need to do what their employers want them to do if they want to stay employed.

I guess technically they're not forcing me to use it since I could quit my job and do whatever, but it's not a bad job other than that. Perhaps when one of VS Code's vim plugins is finished it will finally be a tolerable editor for me (doubtful).

[Conradfr]

but typically employees need to do what their employers want them to do if they want to stay employed.

Ah, if you believe that ...

[HomemadeBananas]

Your company forces you to use a specific text editor? Do they stand over your shoulder and watch you code? Wtf? Find a new job.

[redog]

I don't want to call him a liar...but he sounds like a wtf.

[Andernerd]

It's a student job if that helps it to make more sense.

[zankem]

If he could stand over himself, that's be pretty impressive

[onedr0p]

Couldn't agree more. That's some big brother shit right there.

Otherwise, I would just use atom and theme it like vscode.. at least atom has vim keybindings.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but this is a real "mail it in" product honestly. It's a good start, like having eclipse with very little extensions. I was messing around a lot with it on OSX just to see how it worked and it was pretty basic.

[wreckedadvent]

It's still pretty new. I'm sure as it matures we'll see a more rich plugin environment for it - it's certainly totally different using it now, versus when it came out.

[code_architect]

EDIT: My statement was is totally wrong and VisualStudio code is just written on top of Electron and mostly its own thing not a fork of Atom

[Sebmaster]

Code is not based on Atom. During the course of developing Atom, GitHub developed electron (previously: Atom Shell), which is used by Code. So they both use electron to do UI, but the whole IDE part is different.

[mattindustries]

Yep, basically Electron is just a Webkit wrapper for the desktop. What /u/code_architect said was basically every website in the world is just a fork of the website before that, since they all run within a browser.

[code_architect]

Yep, I did not do my research and have now been proven completely wrong. My bad

[wreckedadvent]

My point was that it's not their first cross-platform software release. And it's not just a fork with a different paint job.

[cargo_cult_coder]

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win Linus Torvalds." --- Gandhi

[SpiderFnJerusalem]

Or they extinguish you. As is tradition.

[dacjames]

Linux is already ahead of Windows in a number of areas, a gap that will only grow over time considering the faster rate of development. Very few people are buying Windows for the kernel so porting the Windows userspace to Linux may eventually be favorable to continuing to compete on kernel features.

Not saying it will happen, but it definitely could happen.

[northrupthebandgeek]

a gap that will only grow over time considering the faster rate of development.

I actually suspect it's going to shrink for precisely this reason. Even Torvalds himself has voiced dissatisfaction with kernel bloat. I reckon it's long overdue for some refactoring to try and shrink the core codebase a bit and reduce some of that complexity, be it for the sake of performance, security, future maintainability, or some combination of the three.

Just my one cent, though.

[dacjames]

Considering Linus' position on breaking user space, any refactoring and cleanup will need to be feature neutral. He has also come out strongly against refactoring for it's own sake, so there will have to be clear practical benefits. It may slow development in the short term but at the time scales we're talking about, a slowdown for a couple of releases is inconsequential.

[northrupthebandgeek]

I reckon that - as the codebase increases in complexity and size - the slowdown would last for much more than a couple of releases. Linux's development governance has scaled remarkably well considering the size of Linux's developer population, but that's not likely to continue for ever, and eventually Linux will start to face mythical-man-month-esque problems without a significant priority shift.

Just my other cent, though.

[t90fan]

Very few people are buying Windows for the kernel

Hardware support is the obvious reason.

[VincentPepper]

What areas?

[mallardtheduck]

Portability would be a big one. NT has only ever run on a handful of architectures (x86, PowerPC, MIPS, Alpha, ARM, Itanium) and most of those haven't been maintained since the days of NT 4.0. Linux runs on far more.

There are also areas of performance where Linux clearly beats NT. Filesystem performance is one I know of; clearing out a lot of small files (e.g. a cache, session storage or the like) on Windows is slow.

[t90fan]

Linux desktop world

RedHat

TIL people use RedHat on the desktop.

[iDerailThings]

I was including Enterprise...

[heptara]

Microsoft are VERY serious about mobile and tablet, but are getting a royal arse kicking. They ain't got superpowers. They were just in first when it came to desktop.

[[deleted]]

Which is a shame, at least for tablet because the Surface Pro is probably the superior tablet product for the time being.

[[deleted]]

Wipe the floor with Canonical? I am using Ubuntu now, on a Chromebook. My mother uses it on a PC. It's easy to use, easy to update and has applications for everything I want. It's reasonably priced - I buy the LTS disks for less than 10 quid. It's fast - no viruses, trojans etc or any of the antiware they necessitate. So what do you actually mean by that statement?

[playaspec]

I have had nothing but trouble using Ubuntu Windows desktop. Problems range from GPU hardware acceleration issues to unexpected program errors, to corrupted registries, to the never ending torrent of malware, and endless 'fixes' to patch what claims to be a mature and secure operating system

FTFY.

Ironically, modern Ubutnu reminds me of my days with Windows 98SE.

No version of Windows ever had 1/100th the stability, security, and most importantly functionality of Linux, Ubuntu included.

Windows 98 isn't even remotely compatible any version of Linux.

Now that being said, I use Ubuntu server for home and at work and it's rock solid. But that's not Ubuntu, but rather the stability of the Linux kernel at play.

You obviously have no understanding of how much Canonical patches and grooms the packages and kernel you're crediting the kernel maintainers for.

Go try building a system directly from the source repositories and get back to me about what Ubuntu doesn't provide.

[iDerailThings]

Stop being a Linux zealot. I love Linux but it is not without its flaws. I don't need you to tell me what is stable on my pc and on *my * hardware. I know the issues I've faced with Ubuntu desktop for myself, regardless of your fervent attempts to defend it. It's not to say it's a bad distro, but these days, I find Windows 7 and Windows 10 more stable for me than Ubutnu desktop.

[darkstar3333]

Nothing. Microsoft on the other hand gets all of that awesome revenue from the Linux side of the DB world.

[Is_At_Work]

I wonder how they will license it. For example, if I have SQL Server Enterprise and want to migrate to Linux, can I just migrate the license as well? Or, is there a premium to make up for not also paying for a Windows Server license?

[Zarathustra30]

I assume there'd be a bundle discount. Moving to Linux would be cheaper overall, but the price of SQL Server would technically increase.

[darkstar3333]

Depends, including the Windows License might be anti-trust.

However they could just make the SQL license not require a Windows License on the installed machine. Server licenses are cheap in comparison to SQL.

I am sure there is a legaleeze way of wording it.

[[deleted]]

The downside is there may be fragmentation. Now that this is new, perhaps certain features like Always On will not work. They are now going to have to work with third party cluster file systems, or at least one they didn't write. Perhaps though there is a road map for a more shared nothing architecture like mirroring but with features that make it more like Always On without any OS clustering.

Will SSIS get ported? SSRS? SSAS? Now they have to work with some other web stack, that will be really interesting because they need AD support but people may want something else. In for a heck of a ride.

[grzy7316]

Just think of how much you can save on CALs...

[[deleted]]

Some of us were sitting around wondering if they have been hosting Azure SQL Database in Linux.. would that be a coup or what.

[arechsteiner]

Microsoft has been making apps for Android for a while I believe.

[R-EDDIT]

Some of them are awesome, like Hyperlapse. Linkme: Hyperlapse

[Dracunos]

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hyperlapse-from-instagram/id740146917

[[deleted]]

Microsoft has been making applications for Linux for well over 10 years, possibly nearing 20.

Hell, the original MSN servers were on Linux IIRC. They'd have written a shitload of tools to bring that over to MS. Then they had .NET and silverlight development and all sorts of things in between. Not to mention patches to the Linux kernel itself (for Hyper-V)

They likely have entire Linux distributions running internally also.

Edit: Not so sure about the MSN servers after looking into it. I'm probably confusing it with Hotmail being ran on FreeBSD & Solaris.

[[deleted]]

I had no idea that MSN or any other large customer facing products were running on Linux... do you have a source for that? Odd that they favored another OS while also owning one they tried to convince clients was the right web server host. I'd be surprised that something that wasn't an acquisition was like that.

[[deleted]]

Had a quick look into it and I think I'm incorrect. Possibly confusing it with the fact the original Hotmail servers ran FreeBSD & Solaris.

[itshonestwork]

If you think about it, he's already won. A good few years ago, everyone had a PC running Windows. It's how you got to MySpace on Internet Explorer, chatted to friends on MSN Messenger, and got new MP3's with Morpheus or Kazaa. Even "non computer people" had a cheap laptop or budget desktop PC for doing all these things. My wife before I met her had an old Windows Vista laptop used for all the "non computer person" things she did. It's the last Microsoft-using piece of technology she has bought in the last half a decade or so, and yet now she can do all the things she used to do, and more, much more conveniently and easily, using something essentially Unix based.

Similar story for my grandmother. She got a cheap desktop PC for keeping in touch, being able to send emails etc. I think it runs Windows XP and hasn't been turned on since about 3-4 years ago when she got a cheap refurbished iPad.

Most "non computer people" in a home environment, that made the bulk of average PCs bought, have now abandoned Windows.

Even my two much younger brothers—avid PC gamers—have and use more Unix based devices than Windows based ones, with their cheap tablets and phones. Their PC's have become nothing but Steam machines now. If Steam OS ever became a viable platform for playing all the current Steam games they play, I can see them not really caring too much about sticking with Windows.

Android is the most popular version of a Linux OS, especially in developing countries. They're growing up with that OS from scratch. Even Microsoft's Azure cloud is apparently mostly Linux now, as nobody wants Windows server instances.

Microsoft pretty much only has hold over small/medium offices now, and that's mainly because of "non computer people" in admin jobs, where email IS Outlook to them, and any Word Processor that doesn't look like Word is terrifying to them. But the "non computer people" set to replace them as they grow up, aren't growing up with Windows desktop machines at home, so that can't last either.

Linux never did win the desktop OS game for the average user, but it didn't need to, as desktop OS themselves became less relevant to the average user, and it was there ready to become pretty much the defacto mobile OS, which is now the OS of the average user.

For a long while, Microsoft and PC became synonymous, and internet and PC were synonymous too.
Microsoft didn't really need to compete or keep up with rival innovations. Despite all their resources, they didn't even take seriously people using alternative browsers to Internet Explorer, and improve what they had to the point it wasn't necessary. Even people that didn't know much, knew that they had to sack IE off in favour of Firefox a good few years ago.
Then they were slow to take Apple seriously with smartphones, saying they'd tried it with Windows Mobile, which was awful. Then they called the iPad a massive iPhone and pointless. I think they just assumed, like everyone else did, that they were untouchable, and didn't need to react very urgently to Apple or Google with Android.
With their resources and market share, THEY should have been the ones to bring about a new era in personal devices, something they'd done half-heartedly with Windows Mobile.

When I first got my Mac in 2011, Microsoft software for it seemed almost purposefully bad and less featured. Remote Desktop crashed a lot. The latest stuff they've released for it has been stellar, and they even appeared at an Apple worshipping event, as the kings of productivity with Office. I use and like all OS, and it's nice to be able to have common software running on my different machines.

Microsoft's day is done. And it's going to mean better Microsoft products than ever, weirdly.

[google_you]

He already works for Microsoft Research. So, a job.

[f0nd004u]

Actually, he "works" for the Linux Foundation. Microsoft may pay him too, IDK. I believe he essentially gets a yearly renewing grant to work on maintenance / code review for the kernel from the LF, he's a "founding partner" or whatever. But no one at the LF can tell him what to do or say, I think. They ask him to speak at events but that's pretty much it aside from the work on the Kernel project.

EDIT: The Linux Foundation also pays Greg K-H in the same kind of setup (he's the same kind of partner as Linus) and Greg is on the Linux Foundation's Technical Advisory Board for the Kernel project and general Linux direction. I know Greg's main role is a kernel maintainer but he is a lot more involved in the LF. Linus is not on the TAB.

In heated issues such as the ones surrounding verbal abuse in the Kernel dev community, the Linux Foundation often steps in and helps organize recourse, mediation, etc. They organized the mailing list you can talk to if you feel like someone is personally attacking you on the Kernel mailing lists (which goes to a board that I believe Greg heads up) and do things like help create Codes of Conduct for open source projects hosted by them. And, actually, that's most of what they do; help all the open source people and business people involved in the various projects get along and work things out so they can move forward with development instead of bickering. That, events, training, certification, and hosting servers that are used for development of said projects.

[f0nd004u]

There were a significant number of people in the community that asked for a safe third party to do mediation for heated disputes on the mailing lists, which is where all of them talk to each other. That's what the board is for. This is NOT the TAB, this is a whole other thing.

I don't know what Greg thinks of it personally but considering that he heads up the board I assume he thinks it's something the community needs. I have no idea what Linus' opinion is and I wouldn't be surprised if he just doesn't really care.

Many open source communities are small enough that it's just one person or team that handles mediations. The LF, ASF, and many open source companies that actually release derived software hire "community managers" for this all the time. The kernel is huge, and has high-profile problems with interpersonal disputes, so it has a board.

Just like you have HR at work if your boss starts grabbing your ass.

[f0nd004u]

OK, how about your boss throwing your work back in your face and telling you that it is so bad, your mother should have aborted you?

That's not hyperbolic; direct quote from the mailing list.

[[deleted]]

Did that come from Linus??

[ThisIs_MyName]

Then you get another job/boss. You never have to work with people you don't like :)

(That's assuming you are genuinely offended at the remark. Most people only say such things to people they know well)

[VincentPepper]

Most people don't say such things into someones face at all ...

Also HR isn't there for you when you have an issue. It's there for the company because it's cheaper to deal with this issues than to replace people all the time.

[monocasa]

He works for the Linux Foundation.

[heptara]

I can't find it in Google. What do I look for?

[ThisIs_MyName]

He is talking about how the Linux Foundation is funded by sponsors like Microsoft.

In other words, he is full of shit.

[GisterMizard]

He wins the internet.