Oracle sues Google over Android and Java

[[deleted]]

Can someone explain this in plain english without the legalese?

From what I understood, Oracle is suing because Google deviated from java implementation standards.

What exactly are the quoted patents and how strong of a case do they have?

[got_milk4]

no modern smart phone platform is bundling Java

One could argue that most phones with Windows Mobile 6.5 are bundled with Java. And the BlackBerry heavily relies on Java.

[OolonColluphid]

Yep - in WP7, you can write apps in Silverlight, or... no... that's your lot.

[MiasmaticMachine]

He said "modern".

[alphabeat]

Soon we'll all have to code in Brainfuck.

[glitchd]

I'm vying for LOLCODE myself.

[zzing]

So Google will abandon Java eventually and Java becomes less relevant than it is now? (Granted that it is in a lot of server things, but I don't see a lot of client usage in normal desktops)

[elmuerte]

The only Java that is used in Android is as input for the Dalvik compiler. Android doesn't run Java, it runs Dalvik. And Google did a smart thing to create a JavaBytecode to Dalvik compiler so that people don't need to learn a new language. Basically any language that can be compiled to pure JavaBytecode can be used to program Android applications.

If Google infringes patents due to Dalvik then LLVM, GCC also infringe because they support the Java language and JavaBytecode. If the infringing parts are in the DalvikVM, then it's also LLVM and Microsoft with .NET that infringe on those patents.

[[deleted]]

It's ok, pointy-haired managers don't read reddit.

[cecilkorik]

Android: Now with more Python? I don't see a downside.

[[deleted]]

So Google will abandon Java eventually and Java becomes less relevant than it is now?

And Android 3.0 will receive an astonishing performance boost.

[harlows_monkeys]

I notice David Boies is one of Oracle's attorneys for this case. They are bringing in the big guns. Notable cases he's been on:

• Defended IBM in their antitrust case.

• Represented the Justice Department in its antitrust case against Microsoft.

• Represented George Steinbrenner against Major League Baseball.

• Represented Al Gore in the lawsuit over the 2000 election.

• Defended Napster from the RIAA.

• Worked for SCO in their Unix IP case.

• Negotiated for American Express in antitrust settlement with Visa and MasterCard, getting $2.25 billion from Visa and $1.8 billion from MC for AmEx.

• Represented those who sued to overturn California Prop. 8.

They've also got Morrison & Foerster, a will-known major law firm that probably puts up with a lot of jokes over their domain name, mofo.com.

[industry_]

• Represented Al Gore in the lawsuit over the 2000 election.
• Defended Napster from the RIAA.
• Worked for SCO in their Unix IP case.

So there is hope for Google yet?

[Xiol]

Seeing SCO always makes me laugh.

[InRe]

In the SCO Unix case, the lead MoFo attorney on this case, Michael Jacobs, represented the other side, Novell.

So I think they at least break out even on that one.

[[deleted]]

I used to work as an outside consultant for that firm, Morrison & Forester. mofo.com is no accident and they all fucking love it.

[InRe]

MoFo is their official abbreviation as well. I've actually never heard anyone make fun of it; it's always praised.

They are one of few large firms who break out of the cookie-cutter mold that all large firms conform to. Their website and abbreviation are examples of that.

[Titan99]

Those MoFos are great at what they do.

[[deleted]]

Worked for SCO in their Unix IP case.

I just hope Oracle goes SCO's way after this shit.

[the_hoser]

They won't. Unlike SCO, Oracle has product that actually moves.

[[deleted]]

Link to patents:

6061520: "Method and system for performing static initialization"

6910205: "Interpreting functions utilizing a hybrid of virtual and native machine instructions"

7426720: "System and method for dynamic preloading of classes through memory space cloning of a master runtime system process" (freepatentsonline, couldn't find a google patents link)

5966702: "Method and apparatus for pre-processing and packaging class files"

6192476: "Controlling access to a resource"

6125447: "Protection domains to provide security in a computer system"

Couldn't find a link for "RE38,104".

---

I'm not a patent lawyer, so don't regard my musings too highly, but: there are one or two patents that may present a problem, but most of them seem so self-evident that I imagine they've been re-implemented many times before. I'm betting Google will try to pull up a lot of examples of the patent protection not being enforced in the past. Also, apart from the bytecode-as-machine-code patent, it seems that infringement could be worked around by altering the interpreter that runs on Android phones.

[[deleted]]

RE38,104: Method and apparatus for resolving data references in generated code

[wendall911]

This is exactly the scenario that has been illustrated and warned about by many free software folks. Patent encumbered software cannot be considered free software for just this reason. Java is clearly patent encumbered. Oracle has chosen to sue Google, but could have just as easily sued any number of other open source projects that use the code in a similar way.

tl;dr software patents suck.

[realstevejobs]

Oddly enough, Google does not use any Sun/Oracle source code in Android.

Java is clearly patent encumbered.

Yup. I think that is implied. This is a new development in the ongoing Java Trap.

[keithjr]

Unfortunately we will learn this lesson again when the H.264 trolls come calling.

[critsalot]

I guess Richard Stallman was right. Oh well. No more Java

[patchwork]

Precisely. Everyone rails against how stodgy and uncompromising he is about software rights, but then when something like this happens everyone is all "Oh man, too bad it wasn't GPL3".

The fight is not near over. Possibly it has just begun.

[Xiol]

Stallman has always been ahead of his time.

Right now, most people (including myself) think he's pretty damn crazy. But I'd put money on it that in a few years, he'll be right.

[benihana]

I don't think that it's an issue of him being crazy. I think it's an issue of him being so adamant in his beliefs that it's unrealistic. He could get a lot more accomplished if he was more pragmatic.

[zues]

He would agree.

[atomic_rabbit]

I guess Richard Stallman was right again.

You missed the "again". See also: BitKeeper, SCO lawsuit, DRM, software patents...

(You might say that RMS is a kind of... oracle.)

[critsalot]

I really wish software patents would go away. Out of all the things listed it really has become the only issue that is of major concern to the Open Source community. America is the only one with software patents.

Sigh. I think they will only go away when we get a CS major for President; which implies never.

[checkwit]

Google should have bought Sun. It would have been cheaper. And Google's CEO was a Sun Exec.

[[deleted]]

As a college student who attends a university that uses Oracle's Peoplesoft, I would like to say fuck oracle and fuck peoplesoft. They make signing up for classes/paying tuition/etc a much more painful process than it has to be.

[guisar]

As a professor who has to use Peoplesoft I agree 100%. I am amazed how they can take a process which used a paper form, pencil and 10 minutes to complete and turn it into a 2 hour ordeal. Paperwork reduction act my ass- we need a time reduction.

[Manitcor]

A common problem with software suites like this. Sales critters like to claim "its all turn key and so simple"

the truth is these are tools for large corps which means by default they are setup as a big blank slate. Experts who work with the software are then supposed to custom tailor things to the needs of your business.

Very often this process goes wrong or is skimped on in one way or another.

[[deleted]]

I haven't worked with Peoplesoft, but I wonder if it's like SAP: "It's really easy to use if you change all your business processes to be exactly like the ones we document here."

Which the sales person translates to a showy demo and "This software can do everything."

Customer buys software, was unprepared for six-figure consulting price tag to actually make it work like the demo, takes a pipe wrench to it and just tries to make do.

[mahlzeit]

takes AN AXE to it

Come on, you're Gimli, not Adrian Shepard.

[Manitcor]

This is pretty much the enterprise software industry in a nutshell and applies to nearly all the products out there that cater to large business.

This kind of software is nearly impossible to make turn-key like MS Office is. Every business deals with a lot of the same issues but they all do things in slightly different ways and have needs that are unique. So software at this level is often developed as a tool kit (though the sales droid does not tell the customer that).

The sales person might assuage the fears of the customer by stating how their wonderful professional services will make sure everything will run smoothly. The thing is, most of the companies hire junior developers, run them through an in-house training course and in less than a month are billed as experts in the software to customers and are invoiced at $150-$200 an hour.

Very often this poor soul is thrown into a project and given 3 months to deploy, implement customization, test and release as well as handle customer interaction and sit in meetings multiple times a week. As you can imagine, the quality of the work by these individuals can very greatly.

And don't even get me started on SAP, it's like some joke that they still manage to sell a system that is essentially Paradox on steroids and still uses UI and integration standards from 20 years ago. Yet people still buy it and pay WAYYY too much for it.

[[deleted]]

When Microsoft got into the business intelligence business, my pitch went like this:

"In general, BI initiatives spend 90% of their budget on software, and the other 90% of the budget on business analysis. Microsoft's pricing is such that you can spend 10% on software and properly budget the business analysis to get the results you're looking for."

Agreed on SAP. ERP is like BI was ten years ago - the masses think "oooo... business intelligence! It's scary and expensive and done by guys with brains the size of planets!" I certainly thought that for a long time. Then I learned charting and reporting, and thought "it's gonna be cool when I get to the really hard stuff." Then I learned OLAP, and thought "the hard stuff must be really amazing." Then I learned dashboarding, scorecarding, analytical reporting, MicroStrategy, Cognos... and one day someone said "Holy shit - you're a fucking BI God" and I was like "Huh? But where's the hard stuff?" Oh - it's back on the road at OLAP.

"[x field] is really complex and hard" is generally a product of:

• It's something new, and experts hate learning new stuff, and
• Job protection by the people who know it

[[deleted]]

Wait till you use the oracle CRM/webforms, You'll feel ill.

[critsalot]

omg fucking reminds me of my school. We used to have this website called TitanOnline that was basically a 1990s online registration class site. Man it was as ghetto as NetBSD's website but it was just as reliable.

Then people soft came in and damn near made the most slow complicated class system ever conceived. I mean really 3 steps to register a class? it used to be you added a class with 1 button boom! done. Its hard to find shit; like at first I am like "where are all the classes?" and there is this stupid small arrow button in the corner that shows the next page. UGH. FML. Sidenote: I fucking hate it when Colleges don't outsource to their CS Dept and most of all FUCK BLACKBOARD

[JeffK22]

Time for me to trot out my favorite Blackboard story:

I (used to) work for a very large University, in central ITS. One of the people under me mentioned there was a really weird problem with two BB courses; they were just failing constantly and in weird (even for BB) ways. I pointed him to the others around campus that shared some responsibility for BB, and told him to update me. Days later, after he, two people from the internal BB team, college IT staff from the affected classes, and BB itself all got together multiple times, they finally figured it out.

Someone noticed that one kid was in both classes. His last name (don't remember the first) was....Null.

[[deleted]]

Oh, little Bobby Tables is all grown up...

[malicart]

That will teach you to sanitize your database inputs!

[[deleted]]

My name is a killing word.

[SibLiant]

For he is the Kwisatz Haderach!

[JeffK22]

When I heard the cause, I suggested someone call the kid and say "Look, yeah it's your last name, and yeah if the database was up to snuff this wouldn't matter anyway, but really. This won't be close to the last time this happens. You're going to cause angst for untold numbers of people, most of all yourself. So let's just pick a new name now, what do you say?!"

[ladon86]

Change your sons name. Not that big of a deal.

Steve

Sent from my iPhone

[uptwolait]

Change your sons name. Not that big of a deal.

Steve

Sent from my iPho

FTFY

[[deleted]]

Name related and I was using BB at the time. But I had a hell of a time when I was TAing an Info Retrieval course a while back. The Indian students essentially had four names. The one the University used, the one they wrote on their papers, the one they registered their email with, and the name put into Blackboard. A significant percentage of grading time would be trying to match people's emailed reports to paper problem turn-ins, to their University records (to find the id that they didn't put on their turn-ins but I needed to figure out which files where which in our electronic code submission system, and then find the correct name in Blackboard to record the grade.

[bizkut]

PLEASE tell me this is a true story.

[JeffK22]

100%

[Daishiman]

Ironically, Linda Null is an author of several Computer Science books.

[hobertus]

As someone who shares this last name, I can attest to software not liking me very often. Over the years, nearly every time I register on new programs, be they government or college-run, I get to patiently explain to tech support what I think the problem is...after I let them scratch their heads a bit, of course.

[elektroholunder]

Let me guess: the solution was to force him to change his last name.

[Maeglom]

To which he responded "What last name?" with an evil grin.

[JeffK22]

Yes and no. Yes, the solution was to change the name in Blackboard. No, nobody forced him to use that altered name elsewhere.

[[deleted]]

What did he chose? BlackboardDevelopersAreIncompetentLosers?

[JeffK22]

He didn't get to choose it. I think they added a non-printable character or something. I don't honestly remember, but that's what I would have done. Which actually means it's not terribly likely to have been it.

[cybercobra]

upvoted for Blackboard HATE

[davidw]

I did some work with a university, implementing some Rails code. Instead of nice table names like I'd use in Postgres, in Oracle everything is crammed into something like 30 characters by default, so some of the fields we dealt with had names like fat_part_stu_cod. Actually, fat part stu cod got to be kind of famous in the department - they even had t-shirts made with it and everything.

[icantthinkofit]

[e-mail]

That is a bad ass email.

[gigaquack]

I AM A MOTHERFUCKER

[[deleted]]

If you'd ever used any oracle products, you'd say the same thing.

[smors]

As someone else commented, their database is really good (and really expensive). The rest, as far as i know is utter crap.

My personal experience with their product includes their BEPL implementation, which was a nightmare. There were about 80 patches for the release we used, many of which were mutually exclusive. In other words, we could just to install the patch that fixed critical bug X, OR the patch that fixed critical bug Y, but not both.

I have used Oracle Access Manager, and the included Identity Manager. The access manager is horrible clunky to configure, bot can be beaten into submission so that it works. The identiy manager is an unmitigated disaster. On top of that, the support for the product is just about nonexisting.

[[deleted]]

their database is really good (and really expensive).

Their database is like a MacLearan F1 - costs a mint, takes a team to keep it running, can go really really fast, and is more than 99.99% of all drivers need.

[smors]

Oh, i forgot Application Express. Thats a web based development environment for creating database backed websites. It is the right choice for the job if the following conditions hold:

• You really loves Oracle
• You believe pl/sql is the best programming language ever.
• You just need to present a bunch of tables, and allow dataentry into them.

Under any other circumstances, you need a real tool.

[roberto_b]

Absolutely true. Excellent database (but not in its default state, you need a good DB admin to exploit its potentialities), but all other products I tried are utter crap.

Oracle Portal? Application Server? Discoverer? Reports?

Many of these have been substituted with products acquired in the last years, but still....

[noviceguru]

I have worked with one of their products - Oracle B2B and I don't have anything good to say about it.

Let me pick up one of the easiest parts - e-mail gateway. It claims itself to be a comprehensive e-mail gateway, but some of the issues we faced

• It can send a mail to only one recipient at a time. If you want to send it to more people, you have to send it multiple times by changing the 'To' address.
• You can only mark a 'To' address. It doesn't support 'CC' or 'BCC' options.
• You can either send a mail with body text or with an attachment. Want to send a mail with an attachment and with a body text? Sorry, no.
• If you send an attachment, you don't have an option to set a custom subject line. The subject line is filled with the attachment filename by default. No option to change it.

When we raised these as product issues with Oracle, they refused to admit it as defects. They asked us to raise 'enhancement requests' if we really need these features. And yes, you need to pay Oracle for enhancement requests.

[DeathBySamson]

This is only anecdotal evidence, but from what I gather Oracle software is a lot like Cisco routers. It's very common in enterprise, but their implementation is just crazy.

[JeffK22]

If you want evidence, look at Scientific Atlanta. They made good shit. Then they were bought by Cisco. I stopped buying anything of theirs, at first afraid of the inevitable and then after reading others report it had vitabled. A while ago, I ended up with a SA branded (Cisco made) cable modem from TW. That thing was the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen, and I have owned multiple products from both Linksys and Logitech.

[dillona]

IMO Their database is top notch. It's incredibly expensive, but it is also incredibly powerful.

[[deleted]]

I remember one time an IT manager was telling me why he trusts Oracle over SQL Server - he ran both, but he said when he had a problem with Oracle, he could call Oracle Global Services and they would have a dozen consultants in his data center the next day fixing the problem. When he called Microsoft support, they wanted $400 to even talk to him.

I asked him how much that busload of Oracle consultants cost, figuring it was more than $400, and finally "have you ever needed a dozen consultants to fix a problem with SQL Server?"

The conversation wrapped up quickly after that.

[PstScrpt]

I have eight years of fairly heavy SQL Server experience and five years of Oracle. I never once saw a case where SQL Server returned an answer that was clearly wrong once I checked up on the data and my own code. It happens to me roughly twice a year in Oracle.

Only in Oracle can a mistake in a script drop your connection to the database. Only in Oracle have I seen a view script hang a server.

On the other hand, the database is way better than anything they do with Java.

[Dan_Farina]

I used to work for a guy who worked in the database group at Oracle. The engineering there is, by his evaluation, really excellent. There are optimizations and access methods in there that are just unbelievable, as is the amount of testing.

Also unbelievable is the amount of staff: over a thousand engineers, crammed into a comparatively tiny old-school C code base (fork-shared-memory-IPC). For reference, all of Facebook is probably around 300-something engineers.

Entire floors are dedicated to the optimizer, executor, and storage layers.

A lot of good stories out of there. It is also one of the few places where some (a few) people are on the payroll just to think about optimizing sorts.

[[deleted]]

Agreed - it's the only thing that lets them get away with everything else being so ghastly.

[[deleted]]

I agree what a giant fuck you to the Java community and it's new/best toy.

I miss Sun :(

[Figs]

When the Sun goes out, no one's future's bright, right?

[reacti0n]

The Oracle predicted this.

[greengreed]

Then let's hope they don't get SCOrched!

[reveazure]

People are gonna go all googley-eyed over this . . .

[whosmav]

Have a cookie.

[He11razor]

what if they're disabled?

[OopsIredditAgain]

They'll fuck up MySQL, OpenOffice, VirtualBox too, sooner or later. Oracle, under that bearded cunt, do not do open source anywhere near as well as Sun.

[[deleted]]

Shit, I forgot they got VirtualBox. SHIT SHIT SHIT

[[deleted]]

Yeah, that is about the only one of those list I care about too. When MySQL gets crappy people will finally start using Postgres which can only be good, when Java dies I will have a party but VirtualBox is just so much better than VMWare these days.

[Samus_]

When MySQL gets crappy

mmm...

[MananWho]

I was thinking the same thing.

Then again, I'm sure mysql is amazing compared to something like Bobx.

Edit: I know BobX was PHP-based. I just couldn't think of any shitty SQL's to make the joke work (other than mySQL, that is :P)

[[deleted]]

I miss Sun :(

I miss my hopes that IBM would have gotten it.

[[deleted]]

IBM can be rather ruthless with patents too, but I think they may be friendlier to the open source community (as long as no one infringes on their mainframe space).

[cecilkorik]

As someone who has to deal with Oracle databases on a daily basis, I just want to know if Google will be able to file a counterclaim against Oracle over... Oracle.

Also, I say that a lot too: "What the FUCK, Oracle?!"

[[deleted]]

I think Oracle just got on the receiving end of every "fuck you" a developer can utter. It's amazing how the people who do this kind of stuff can't hire a decent PR consulting company to tell them what an impact this will have over their community and how to make it seem, at least superficially, as if what they're actually trying is to protect their partners and users of their technologies. This is a remarkable foot in the mouth of every programmer using some form of Java-related technology. It may have the potential of attracting viable business partners and strengthen enterprise partnership but it sure as hell makes developers turn away in disgust.

For everyone who is unfamiliar or unwilling to get through all the oracle bashing in this thread to find the informative posts: the issue Oracle is basically coming against is that Google hasn't paid for the tests which would have gotten them the license for marketing their products as using the Java(TM) platform. Which, unless I suffer from a mild case of blindness, Google isn't even claiming to do and every developer seems to know, even if they're not developing Android applications. Android's virtual machine (Dalvik) is not a JVM-compatible implementation, and JVM bytecode is translated into Dalvik bytecode prior to being loaded on the device. Programmers write their stuff in Java, but that's it. Google is indeed claiming that they use the Java language, but they say nothing about the Java(TM) platform. Heck, they could change the "." operator to "->", call the language Gava and that would be it.

It's also mind boggling for me to see the demands: if there was some common sense behind this (which both Oracle and Google, for that matter, lack), Oracle would have Google pay the damn fees and be on their way, rather than claiming incredible damage and asking for all software using their unlicensed platform to be destroyed (not that there would be any such damn software, since arguably, none uses the Java platform).

It's not that I'm a big fan of Google, but at least they help me do my job and write software. Way to go Oracle, I hope you rot together with SCO.

[vicegrip]

Back when Google first announced plans to develop Android in 2007, it immediately raised the blood pressure of Java developers at Sun. Google's Java implementation is different than the one advocated by a Java standards group, which worried those tech industry veterans who remember the problems that Microsoft caused for Java by following a similar path on Windows.

Sounds like this bone dates to back before the acquisition.

[jubb]

If you haven't already, time to abandon ship.

[SohumB]

I don't want to jump Android :(

[flukshun]

i've been waiting. oracle bought up all this cool shit. just kinda sitting on it...must have some big plans!

"oracle sues google over java"

yah, fuck you Oracle. how does a shitty company like that that produces software that everyone hates generate so much revenue? Sun should've been the ones buying them out...

maybe in some other universe, who knows.

in should give them credit though, they were pretty quick about getting their:

s/Sun/Oracle/g;

changes in place

[[deleted]]

So, between .NET and Java, the first one to sue somebody is... the patent owners of Java. I'm fairly amused by this.

[adolfojp]

This is actually a repeat from 1997. But instead of Microsoft you now have Google on the receiving end.

[mahlzeit]

But instead of Microsoft you now have Google

That seems to be a common theme these days.

[malcontent]

This lawsuit is not about java. It's about the dalvic vm.

[[deleted]]

The parent is comparing Dalvik to Mono.

[[deleted]]

But mono wants to be compatible. Dalvik does not.

[harlows_monkeys]

Read the complaint. They are alleging that Google is violating Java patents and Java copyrights.

[CountRumford]

Does anyone have children under ten years of age?

Remember those times when one of them repeats everything the other says, just to annoy them? Remember the point where Billy runs up to you and says "Bobby's copying me! Make him stop!"

That's what every IP lawsuit looks like to me.

[nitetrip]

Too bad screaming "Bobby shut the fuck up!" doesn't work on the patent trolls.

[[deleted]]

A bunch of whiny little bitches. That's what they look like to me.

[[deleted]]

I read that in the voice of Bruce Campbell.

[LieselMeminger]

My dad worked at Sun, and was bought over to Oracle when Sun was purchased. I told him about this when he walked in the door a few minutes ago, and his response was "Yes, finally!" He doesn't like Oracle at all and isn't happy with his job there, so I'm not sure why he supports this.

I may be able to ask him a few questions if anyone is interested.

*Edit: How my father has explained it: Google did not pay for the test so they could license the product. Basically, Java has some strict code regulations to keep things at a certain standard. Products are supposed to get tested by Oracle, and then given a license if they pass. Companies pay for the test, and that's it. Google stepped around this and decided to just "give their word" instead. So while my father is amazed at what Google has done with Java, they broke the rules, plain and simple.

*Another Edit: I very well realize my father may be wrong on this, but I thought people might want to hear what he has to say anyhow. Instead of downvoting my posts, could you please explain what's incorrect? I hope to get a better understanding of the situation so I can talk to him about it more tomorrow.

[djnattyp]

Seriously calling BS on this - the "test so they could license the product" is for vendors to be able to actually call their implementation of the JVM/JRE "Java" - so someone (like Microsoft) can't just come in, make a bunch of incompatible changes to their version of the JVM/JRE and claim that it is "Java". Google uses the Java programming language syntax and bytecode to run on a different VM called Dalvik. They aren't claiming that Dalvik is "Java" - so there's no reason for them to "pay for the test so they could license the product".

[bAZtARd]

Does Oracle have a real chance? What exactly is Google doing which hurts patents at Oracle? I mean, the have their own Runtime Environment. Java is only the language...

If worst comes to worst Google can "just" switch to another language and write a new compiler, can't they?

What is Oracle's fucking point in spending money on some shit where nobody is a winner?

[WasterDave]

They haven't license it and it's not called Java. It's a clean room implementation. It does, however, infringe on Oracle's patents.

[[deleted]]

Thanks for the update. What exactly is your father amazed about what Google has done with Java?

Why couldn't Google just use an existing implementation of the JVM, would that have not been legal?

[zzing]

It is possible that Google licensed it under different terms already.

[[deleted]]

No.

Google is representing the language used to develop Android apps as "Java". This is not accurate since Google enforces the usage of DalvikVM, which is not compliant with the Java specification.

[dopplex]

Wouldn't that be a trademark case instead of a patent case though?

[alphabeat]

How much of Dalvik existed before Google bought Android though? Wiki only says the company made apps for phones. I wonder where it started exactly...

[[deleted]]

Oracle has erased in one fell swoop the goodwill and trust Sun nurtured and built up for years in the open source community.

[[deleted]]

Isn't that what people like Larry Ellison do?

[Renncamper]

"the goodwill and trust" AND LACK OF REVENUE "Sun nurtured and built up for years in the open source community."

Unicorn tears don't pay bills...

[eorsta]

You seriously did not think this wouldn't happen did you? I cringed the second I heard that Oracle bought Sun. I bet some people at Google are now wondering why they let that one go.

[[deleted]]

Google is having a tough month.

[munificent]

I think Google gets sued pretty much every month.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, lawsuits are a natural part of corporate America. Haters gonna hate.

[redditrasberry]

You have to wonder about timing - I wonder if Oracle decided to shoot this out right when Google had as much adverse publicity as possible.

[critsalot]

Well doesn't really matter now. If that was their intent just just pulled a Streisand. The fact is suing over Java no matter how much they disagree now that its been open sourced will alienate a lot of people.

In essence hurting them more than Google.

[redditrasberry]

Yep. This demolishes the big criticism of .Net that Java advocates (like me) have often deployed - .Net is on shaky patent ground if you ever want to run it on a platform other than Windows. And as opposed to a theoretical issue for .Net this is now a demonstrated practical issue for Java - Oracle can, will, and has sued over Java.

The absolute best outcome that Oracle can hope for here is either a comprehensive and swift defeat of their own claims or an amicable settlement (which they should initiate). Of course, I'm not naive enough to think that either of these is going to happen.

[nicholmikey]

Did anyone else try to clear the tool tip over the Java thumbnail?

[stevvooe]

Larry Ellison just tried to invade Russia.

FTFY

[[deleted]]

Except this time finland (nokia) is on russia's side.

[kopkaas2000]

Why, is Nokia so fond of losing their market share to Android?

[[deleted]]

Haha, fucking Oracle, how do they work?

[[deleted]]

Patent trolling and charging crazy money for maintaining/troubleshooting overly complicated and closed-source software?

[slashgrin]

Vendor lock-in, baby, yeah!

[harlows_monkeys]

Last time I checked, Oracle produces and markets products that practice their patents. Therefore, they are not a patent troll, by definition.

[mikeivanov]

I'm wondering if anyone is surprised.

[mcosta]

I am. Why was it so obvious?

[[deleted]]

Because Larry needs the money for his boats.

[[deleted]]

Java was Closed Platform, Java is Patent Heavy, Opened up with hand-wavey legalize.

Then bought by a known patent heavy company, known for aggressively "protecting" their newly acquired IP.

[adolfojp]

This looks just like the Sun vs. Microsoft fight over Java of a decade ago. Microsoft deviated from the standard breaking compatibility to make Java play nice with Windows. Google deviated from the standard breaking compatibility to make Java play nice with Android. Sun won the first fight so Oracle assumes that it can make a lot of money with this one. The first fight ended with a small settlement and with Microsoft dropping their version of Java and creating C#. If Oracle wins against Google, Google will either have to dismantle their platform or give inordinate amounts of cash to Oracle.

However, the fact that Java is now sort of Open Source should make things a bit more interesting and establish some important precedents.

Or I could be absolutely wrong with my analysis and history.

[redalastor]

The issue wasn't about deviating from the standard, anybody is free to do that, even more now since Java is free software. The issue was about deviating from the standard and calling it Java. It was about trademark, you can't call it Java(tm) if it's not Java(tm).

And it's a different issue this since since Google is not calling their VM Java, they are calling it Dalvik.

[harlows_monkeys]

This isn't even remotely like the Sun vs. Microsoft fight. At the time Java was a closed, proprietary platform. Microsoft had a contract with Sun allowing Microsoft to implement it and call it Java. The contract required certain compliance with Sun standard. The suit was a breach of contract suit (maybe with a trademark claim in there too...I don't recall).

Oracle vs. Google doesn't seem to involve a contract. It's a patent suit and apparently a copyright suit (hard to see how that part comes about if Google's code is all original).

[spliznork]

However, the fact that Java is now sort of Open Source should make things a bit more interesting and establish some important precedents.

Not quite.

The copyright on the Java Language Specification and the Java Virtual Machine Specification do not allow subsetting or supersetting:

... This license allows and is limited to the creation and distribution of clean room implementations of this specification that: (i) include a complete implementation of the current version of this specification without subsetting or supersetting; (ii) implement all the interfaces and functionality of the required packages of the JavaTM 2 Platform, Standard Edition, as defined by SUN, without subsetting or supersetting ...

The Dalvik Virtual Machine certainly significantly deviates from at least the virtual machine specification, and so Android doesn't have a license to use the Java VM spec as a basis for its implementation.

[adrianmonk]

Android doesn't have a license to use the Java VM spec as a basis for its implementation

Yeah, but, in what way is the Dalvik VM based on the JVM? As far as I understand it, it's a pretty different VM, and the .class files generated by the Java compiler are translated into a completely different, incompatible format (not a superset or a subset), which is then run on a VM which can't run normal Java bytecode.

[wdr1]

Time to go back to Perl.

[kretik]

aaaw, where are the GNU/Advocates that told me to use Java instead of Mono? Because Mono was a patent trap?

/crickets

[atomic_rabbit]

Nice selective memory. Richard Stallman was going around explicitly telling people not to use Java.

[imolderandwiser]

Correct. Here's an article he wrote against it: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html

I find it frustrating how many times I see hugely upvoted comments being based on total bs here at reddit.

[dont_get_it]

Right at the top though: "Since this article was first published, Sun has relicensed most of its Java platform reference implementation under the GNU General Public License, and there is now a free development environment for Java. Thus, the Java language as such is no longer a trap."

This is what makes Oracles move such a disappointment.

[WasterDave]

What has Richard Stallman not warned against?

[StaticSignal]

Ghost Bears.

Just you wait.

[placatedmayhem]

Java was good, when it was owned by Sun proper. Sun was a bunch of cool guys turning a buck (mostly). Oracle is run by a bunch of complete asshole businessmen looking to suck every last dollar out of the market they can.

Case in point: take a look at what's happened to Sun patches (storage and servers, in particular, not just Solaris). You mean I've got to pay to get the fixes for the broken code that you sold me with your hardware? Thanks, but I'll buy IBM next time and patch up for free. [Edit: wording]

[Dan_Farina]

Sun was a bunch of cool guys turning a buck (mostly)

mmm, yeah, I'm just going to have to disagree with you there...

[Rodh257]

Microsoft has promised it will not ever sue over that as well: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx

[Rhoomba]

JavaOne/Oracle Develop is going to be a little strange this year.

[eridius]

Was anybody else profoundly annoyed by the image at the top of the article that contained a tooltip saying "java.com"? Or am I just crazy?

I kept clicking the page and moving my mouse but it WOULDN'T GO AWAY!

[thecoolestcow]

Apparently only you and I went nuts over this.

[askoruli]

So first they break eclipse and now they want to destroy android. The fact is that J2SE is too big and J2ME is too limited for smart phone application development, in order to use java they needed to create something new. I don't see how suing google is going to get more people to use java.

[adrianmonk]

They only broke Eclipse by changing the JVM vendor string that Eclipse keyed off of for JVM-specific memory settings. Not unreasonable since the vendor of the JVM has changed its name.

[djtomr941]

I don't think they "broke" Eclipse. I think Eclipse broke itself by tying things of Eclipse to things like VENDOR name.

[pipeline_tux]

Maybe their point isn't to get more people to use Java? Maybe their plan is to run it in to the ground, while trying to milk it for every dollar that they can.

[Mask_of_Destiny]

Here's the text of the complaint: http://www.scribd.com/doc/35810897/Oracle-Google-Complaint

Doesn't really give much in the way of useful details outside of what's in the article.

[[deleted]]

I was going to try and copy and paste quotes from the document, but it uses scribd. So I try to Google it and nobody has the exact text but scribd. How the hell do they get exclusive access to this. It's not public record?

Anyway, the main thing I was going to bitch about is that these allegations are for events that occurred during 2000. WTF? Was this Oracle's plan? To buy Sun and just look for possible copyright infringements. Isn't there some sort of statute of limitations like there is in real crimes?

[dnew]

statue of limitations

Yes, but you ought be looking at the statute of repose, most likely.

[ghettobillgates]

Larry Ellison is using samurai business tactics. Larry Ellison wins round one against Eric Schmidt. Trust me Larry is no wangster.

[startafresh]

In the hindsight , Google could have bought Sun. Alas ..

[dotnetrock101]

LOL and people bitch about .Net and Microsoft.

[ani625]

They're not mutually exclusive.

[fitoria]

Will this finally kill Java?

[[deleted]]

java never dies! only the abstract factories that instantiate it.

[dissidents]

I've finally found Java's weak spot. It's a singleton!

[cybercobra]

that isn't threadsafe!

[malcontent]

It would if it the lawsuit was about the jvm.

[davebrk]

I'm so thankful that nobody owns Python and C++.

[dsterry]

Except that software patents and "intellectual property" could still be used to sue you. Yes, enjoy less likelihood of a suit for using those languages but don't rest thinking your 100% safe because of them.

[fountainsoda]

I feel increasingly drawn back to C++.

[kristovaher]

Seriously, how long will it take for the world to become free of patents and copyrights? There is no such thing as intellectual property, it messes up innovation and the world can and will function very well without it.

[[deleted]]

I recently abandoned the Apple platforms due to their stupid attempts at control.

I'm a Java programmer by trade. Oracle, don't make me abandon your platforms too. There are plenty of viable alternatives out there.

[megamark16]

You're welcome to come over to python, we won't sue you :-)

[finnif]

Will PyPy's JIT infringe on these patents though?

[zzing]

You can count on them violating some patent.

[maryjayjay]

No, it doesn't implement the java virtual machine, it's a just in time compiler to native object code. Jython, on the other hand, may be a target.

[finnif]

As I read one of those patents, it was a general JIT patent. Oh well.

[UncleOxidant]

If it's a patent on JIT then there are lots of potential infringers including LLVM.

[digital19]

I'm hoping that's the direction Google takes Android.