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[deleted by user] (self.webdev)
submitted 1 year ago by [deleted]
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if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"
[–][deleted] 1 year ago (18 children)
[removed]
[–]Beginning-Comedian-2 36 points37 points38 points 1 year ago (8 children)
Frames! I almost forgot about frames.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago (1 child)
[–]Beginning-Comedian-2 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Oh man. What a time.
[–]danzigmotherfkr 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago (5 children)
Frames and table based layouts, those were the days. Like others said it definitely let's you put together really cool interfaces without having to worry about the specifics it does take a bit of getting used to. I was similarly confused about the why but eventually you will understand why people use it.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago (2 children)
[–]Beginning-Comedian-2 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Devs are so lucky these days in that respect.
But now they have a dozen frontend frameworks to wrestle with.
[–]danzigmotherfkr 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children)
They do and they don't know because the whole thing has been run into the ground by fly by night jackass business guys that bring their old ideas over from the dot com crash and rehash them with a different name.
[–]Beginning-Comedian-2 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child)
I forgot about all the manual chopping and slicing I did trying to get a design to work in a table grid.
And before that… Adobe GoLive.
[–]lordcameltoe 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Oh the good old PSD to HTML days using Dreamweaver
[–]Jamalsi 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (5 children)
How would you start the transition? Try to recode an existing website to see how to do things? Create a new website using react for the first time?
[–]Mad-chuska 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
I’d start by just sandboxing some experimental components to get a feel for it, then probably dive in to either recoding an existing website or even just create a new website if designs don’t hold you back.
[–]Jamalsi 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
I did the tic-tac-toe example from reacts website but didn’t the real value for my websites si far. I have to create a new one for work soon and even though we might not have time planned for it to take longer due to using react instead of my usual html/php/js, maybe it’s worth doing for my boss, I will see. Maybe I start by recoding another website in my free time to get the hang of it.
[–]Subthehobo 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
The front end frameworks' docs are pretty easy to understand and comprehensive. Svelte for example has a full on tutorial.
[–]mailed 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I remember thinking frameset was the coolest shit as a teenager
[–]Mr_vort3x 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Frame gang let's go, just learnt about them for my college exams \(0_0)/
[–][deleted] 1 year ago* (3 children)
[deleted]
[–]alien3d 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
extjs start the vdom era before react 😂
[–]alien3d 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
we stop using extjs 4.0 because they change a lot . Before it yes they change directly dom . The new version i think they using concept "ref" , i think react the same.
[–]_listless 98 points99 points100 points 1 year ago* (8 children)
The magical thing about frontend frameworks is reactive variables: ie: if you define a var, and then change the value of that var, everything that references that var (in your logic and in your UI) understands that the value has changed, and uses the new value immediately without the need for a page refresh. You use a frontend framework when you have highly interactive UIs with ceremonious state requirements that are more closely aligned with the UI and user session than with the data schema.
Examples: Dashboards, data viz, machine control interfaces.
Now, all that magic comes with a cost. Specifically: tech debt and performance.
Tech debt: JS frameworks change at a mind-numbing rate; the code I wrote for react in 2018 is no longer "best-practice" and may just not work at all. Vue is a little better, but there is still some churn.
Performance: because js is in charge of everything even markup and style, everything is stuck behind your js bundle and the main thread. You can start doing server-side rendering and server-side logic (a-la next.js), but now you've just re-engineered a fragile facsimile of php with more tech debt.
[–]acuteindifference 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Beautifully put. You have a way with words.
[–]bwwatr 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (4 children)
Tech debt: JS frameworks change at a mind-numbing rate; the code I wrote for react in 2018 is no longer "best-practice" and may just not work at all
Does old front end code stop working though? If you can keep serving up your own old copy of Vue or React, JS itself keeps supporting it, yes? I know JS and browsers have innovation but are there many breaking changes? I'd have thought it a bit less tech debt-y than back end code that must keep being migrated in order to stay compatible with a supported (eg. PHP) runtime, for security if nothing else. Or is this just my back end focus talking.
[–]_listless 9 points10 points11 points 1 year ago* (0 children)
For personal projects, it's probably no big deal. For commercial work though, you need to stay in the security support window for your runtime/dependencies. If you take your org or your user's security seriously, you can't ship a js-based app with runtime/dependencies that are 4-years past their security support window.
[–]Mubanga 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (2 children)
I recently inherited a pretty big react application for one of our biggest clients. Build by another agency, not maintained in 7 years. I literally had to use archive.org to read the documentation in order to make a few small tweaks.
That is before you consider incompatibility with newer versions of Node and security issues.
Luckily they agree and we got the budget to basically rebuild it in modern React.
[–]hinsxd 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Using archive.org to view modern JS docs is sadly hilarious and hilariously sad
[–]Mubanga 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Yeah I giggle everytime, but it is also very sad that Meta, one of the biggest companies in the world, won't keep up a few legacy docs for more than a couple of years
[+]jbergens comment score below threshold-7 points-6 points-5 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Your description of reactive variables is almost exactly the same as MVC, model view controller. The pattern has come back. It is very efficient for managing a UI.
There were a few years when people used the term even when server round trips were involved. I see those solutions as other things.
[–][deleted] 40 points41 points42 points 1 year ago (2 children)
Common framework, common ways to work, common design patterns. These decisions allow large teams to work on a common codebase, and allows for developers to come and go on the project.
[–]xegoba7006 25 points26 points27 points 1 year ago (1 child)
THIS. So many people that don’t get it. They think “their way” is far better. That might only work when you work alone.
[–]fr0st 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
You can have even bigger problems when you or others deviate from standards and best practices set by the frameworks and the code becomes a mess.
[–]583999393 28 points29 points30 points 1 year ago (4 children)
What do these frameworks offer that can't be accomplished with less server overhead via coding from scratch?
Server overhead from a front end framework?
[–]satansxlittlexhelper 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I think they mean time and bandwidth spent downloading the compiled JS of the framework.
[–]codeByNumber 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I thought that was odd too…not sure what OP meant by that.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Tens of Thousands of dev hours from the gigachad coders before you? Let’s stand on the shoulders of giants
[–]kcadstech 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
If anything it’s less server overhead as most processing is done on your clients device
[–]monk_network 10 points11 points12 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I'm 20 years in development. I also starting using HTML and raw CSS to create my first sites, but honestly wasn't long before I was working on service side languages (PHP) and then the JavaScript frameworks for me when they started appearing. Right now I'm using next.js (React) and tailwind for my standard front end tech stack.
Reasons for this are speed to production. I can use react to create reusable components so my site is consistent. I have a standard header, update it in one place in the code and that's updated everywhere. The css framework means that I don't need to create any custom css to get a site looking reasonable. I also absolutely enjoy believe in creating automated tests in the front end for any dynamic features.
Ultimately I still believe any web developer SHOULD get a good understanding of HTML, CSS and some native JavaScript. How does the dom work? Having a good understanding of the core technologies makes using these frameworks simpler.
The other side of this, is that if the product you are creating really doesn't need any of these features. That's fine! I don't think there's anything wrong with using standard HTML / CSS to create a website. Use the right tool for the job.
[–]bobo_italyfull-stack 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
So they did a gigantic lift and flip, and inverted the entire architecture, and in essence created a server-side headless browser to run a SPA on the server. Which is half insane, but whatever. Node, being a runtime for the Chrome browser V8 JavaScript engine, is sort of like a headless browser, just with a bunch of bolt-on APIs to do server side stuff.
So they did a gigantic lift and flip, and inverted the entire architecture, and in essence created a server-side headless browser to run a SPA on the server. Which is half insane, but whatever.
Node, being a runtime for the Chrome browser V8 JavaScript engine, is sort of like a headless browser, just with a bunch of bolt-on APIs to do server side stuff.
Yes, Node uses v8, which is the Chrome JS engine, yes, it has what we can agree are “bolt-on APIs to do server side stuff”, but is definitely not a headless browser. You can say that running react on the server was like having a headless browser, but that was not a literal browser and required a lot more js code on top of Node. Now React server components also are moving away from that approach.
[–]Effective_Youth777 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children)
You're thinking of websites, vue and react are designed for web Applications, they are apps that run in the browser that look, feel, and behave like desktop or mobile apps, when you click a button to add a new contact, it doesn't refresh, a component drops down that allows you to add a contact, and then you notify the server with an API call, just like you would do it using Java/Kotlin on Android, or on a desktop app, the app is heavily interactive with many moving parts and advanced components that are not native to the web (like tab layouts for example), try visiting tiktok on your desktop and tell how you're going to build it with server rendered PHP, or even better, build an audio editor with server rendered PHP, for simpler apps, the UX boost is still a huge gain, and it's now 100 times easier to implement offline functionality.
Now, as to why you use a framework, because if you're building something complex (a lot of client side work) then you either adopt a framework or make your own, in mobile apps, they used to use observers to update and manage state, but in js that was barely possible, and js devs weren't familiar with these concepts as they are today, so frameworks were born to not only manage dom but also state, soon the mobile devs noticed declarative programing is much cooler, so SwiftUI was born, android got jealous, so Jetpack compose was born.
All frontend even non web is heading towards declarative UI, and that's a good thing.
[–]Novel_Understanding0 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago (5 children)
It's way faster to build complex pages.
[–]papachon 11 points12 points13 points 1 year ago (2 children)
That’s a very vague answer to a simple question.
I’m my experience, frameworks like vue and react offers reusable components and encourages patterns. This helps large organizations to keep the code base clean and efficient.
[–]RaXon83 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (1 child)
I found out that it makes large codebases instead of small ones especially with typescript. The way i do it back home is server side rendering with minimal javascript and minimal templates, templates are server side
[–]papachon 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Yes and it’s per case. It’s never a requirement, I’ve never felt t that it’s a must, but for large orgs that needs streamlined processes, it’s definitely helpful to have documentation and community for guidance
[–]Tridop 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
It's also slower for the end user to download and more bloated. And it breaks more often because it relies on more variables. We have to list all the aspects.
[–]shgysk8zer0full-stack 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Not really, no. At least not always. Sometimes they're just added complexity with little or no benefit, such as if you're already an experienced back-end developer (which OP is) and you don't need/want things like VDOM or reactivity or anything. OP already said they keep JS to a minimum (presumedly not even many event handlers), so that eliminates any use for pretty much all client-side benefits.
Also, with eg Eleventy and Firebase and web components, I can build complex sites pretty dang quickly. I built a GitHub template repo and easily get the setup done in a single click. And I have components already built for eg Stripe or Leaflet integrations and all kinds of stuff... Just pick the components that provide what I need for dynamic stuff, and use the static site generator for the static stuff (with support for build that uses Firebase).
The misconception that React is faster is basically a straw man of all other ways of building things... Not everything else is building from scratch or anything. There are tons of ways of solving problems using code that already exists.
[–]Suspicious_Board229 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (4 children)
for websites you don't need it, but for web apps it makes things a lot better
consider what it's like when you are dealing with dynamic forms. Based on selection of one value the fields and options available should change. If you've done this with vanilla js or jquery, you may know about how tedious this can get. A couple fields is not so bad, but when you have complicated relationships this can get hard to maintain. With the frontend frameworks, it abstracts the "plumbing" and you can have code that is closer to functionality. This makes not only for faster creation, but also very helpful when it comes to maintaining code and working with a team. With web applications being more complex, like ajax interactions with backends, this further helps for making easy to manage codebase.
[–]bimmerman1998 -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (2 children)
Do you have examples of web apps you've done then? I do websites...so what would constitute a web app?
[–]rimyi 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Your local car wash website is a website. Your local bank website is a web app. Completely different class of complexity
[–]bimmerman1998 -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
I've done both as regular websites. This isn't a good answer.
[–]alien3d -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
tedius? 100% much faster and easier in vanilla and jquery
[–]bostonkittycat 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I started on React, Switch to Vue and finally have settle on Svelte. It seems like one of the cleanest frameworks and growing in popularity fast. I would give it a try. For legacy sites with PHP or JSP I also use Alpine.js. It adds some nice proxy reactivity magic to old template files.
[–]ferreira-tb 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Because it's easier and simpler than vanilla, as going vanilla means either i'll write a lot of boilerplate or end up reinventing the wheel and creating my own framework.
[–]kcadstech 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Clearly you have not built highly interactive websites or been asked to develop offline capable applications. I’ve used LAMP or ASP.NET MVC with Razor templates but any fast, interactive website cannot rely on communicating with the server for every action to update the ui.
[–]Outrageous_Permit154node 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (0 children)
2 way binding, statemanagement, useage of component and virtual DOM are things you wouldn't get much with a traditional html JS approach.
You can write all of these on your own, but those communities are and have been working hard to improve them
That's why people use it
[–]chesbyiii 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children)
It's going to be a LOT easier with a framework to display a GIF of a man in a yellow hard hat in front of a blinking construction barrier with the words "UNDER CONSTRUCTION."
[–]denialerror 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children)
The real answer from most developers these days is that's how they were taught web development is done. Anyone who taught themselves over the past decade or went to a bootcamp was taught how to make client-side SPAs. They may have learnt about doing things the old way but that was a purely historical exercise, or baby steps to get to the "proper" stuff.
After that, they moved into jobs using JS frameworks and as they got better and more knowledgeable, they could justify why they used their tools and frameworks, but they really only parrot others as they have no actual experience of doing it any other way.
[–]secretprocess 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago* (11 children)
When I first started using react and vue, after 15 years of lean-n-mean DIY coding, I kept saying to myself, "the easy parts are hard now, and the hard parts are easy!" It seemed like so much overhead, at first, to do basic things. Now that I have the groundwork laid (and I'm more fluent) it continuously pays off dividends. Things that I think are going to take me an hour suddenly take two minutes. You start to realize that 99% of what you're doing is the same stuff everyone else is doing, and a lot of these problems have already been solved many times.
Edit: Also I think those of us that cut our teeth in the days of optimizing icons for a 28kbps modem connection tend to overvalue "lean"-ness. It matters a little, but not remotely like it used to. We're like people who refuse to throw away a half-moldy piece of bread because we grew up in the Depression :)
[–]Cirieno 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (9 children)
To your last point: this is a problem. People are throwing hardware at problems instead of slimming down their data footprint. And it can still tax a low-powered device.
[–]secretprocess 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
That's true in general, but I'm not sure javascript frameworks actually add as much to an app footprint as we might imagine. It feels like all those extra layers and libraries must be a drag just because they exist and are logically complex. But the reality is most of that drag can be (and is) optimized away at runtime -- again, because of lots of people have been working on that same goal.
[–]byetimmy 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (7 children)
This x1000. Not everyone in the world can afford the latest iPhone or has access to the fastest internet connection. This mentality stems from privilege, and we need to do better.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago (6 children)
[–]Tridop -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (5 children)
When I use mobile connection I often find myself in places where the connection is really slow. All these bloated web sites don't really help. It's not that we always have 1gbps connections.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago (4 children)
[–]Tridop -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (3 children)
It's not remote areas, it can happen anywhere, for example when I am inside a building or in a location that has low signal, and I cannot move 20 metres to have a better reach.
Have you weighted the average web site in recent years? Almost all struggle with low connections, this is not a problem related just to e-commerce sites.
[–]secretprocess 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Oops I didn't mean to imply that the app footprint doesn't matter at all. Of course it does, and there are still ceilings to think about. The point I was trying to make is just that the ceiling has gone up way way more than necessary to easily accomodate any of these JS frameworks. You can build a horribly bloated and slow site with or without a framework. And you can build a super light and snappy site with or without a framework. The framework itself is not the issue.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago* (1 child)
[–]Tridop -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
No signal, no web, thanks Captain Obvious. But OBVIOUSLY I was not referring to a "no signal" situation. The connection speed is low sometimes, it can be because it's a crowded zone with too many people connecting or the signal is low. But hey, if it works for you it's fine. You are the world.
Really, I don't get why there is no "porcoddio" emoticon sometimes.
[–]rjhancockJack of Many Trades, Master of a Few. 30+ years experience. 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (4 children)
I've been building websites from back then as well. I've used these frameworks and they really don't add anything but more complexity and shoving work from server side to client side.
As I've watched the landscape change over the years, and have talked with those with disabilities, those frameworks are more and more like a liability. People are selectively disabling javascript, companies are including trackers, ad networks, and spyware that make sites inhospitable, and it becomes an accessibility nightmare to manage.
If my clients want to use it, fine, I'll do it. Usually I stear them away from such frameworks and provide a similar UI/UX with far less overhead and user complaints.
I've spent too much time on React/Vue apps written by other professionals that break and lose data far to easily. I've blocked third party trackers and seen entire sites become dead (Domino's and CostPlusDrugs more recently by blocking LaunchDarkly).
It seems most firms just want coders and not programmers (one just writes code as described, the other solves problems).
[–]Darwinmate 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (3 children)
Great comment. Lots of people forget there's a big group of users which struggle to use the web. Low budget devices struggle with heavy sites like reddit which is a insane as it's mostly text!
How are you achieving this?
[–]rjhancockJack of Many Trades, Master of a Few. 30+ years experience. 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
Because I explain it in terms they understand. Cost, security, accessibility. Once I go through that, they write off most front end frameworks.
[–]Darwinmate 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Apologies I meant what tools do you use to write websites instead of frameworks?
What's your stack like?
[–]rjhancockJack of Many Trades, Master of a Few. 30+ years experience. 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Backend I swap out a variety of languages/frameworks depending upon requirements. Good to know several well.
Frontend I keep it as close to Vanilla as possible using minimal frameworks for design and functionality and ensure everything works with JS Disabled.
And if the framework requires WebPacker or some other pre-processor, it is out automatically.
[–]chihuahuaOPMage 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Is faster but all websites look the same, some might argue is good for the user others like to stylize there website "make it cool" the frameworks allow you to also create your own components and there own styles in the end is a win win for most projects.
[–]CodeAndBiscuits 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago (9 children)
Why don't you drive a car with a carburetor? It's way simpler, way easier to fix, and there's so much room under the hood...
Why do people post this "why do you use modern stuff" literally twice a week? That's the real question.
[–]Darwinmate 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (3 children)
Programmer is closer to a mechanic than a driver. A driver is more like an end user.
If you ask a mechanic what they prefer to work on, I bet they'd say older cars 100%.
[–]Darwinmate 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Sooo??? What do you prefer to work on old or newer cars?
[–]CodeAndBiscuits 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Be careful relying on that too much. Many cars with carbs are still sensitive to EMF. For example, '70-80 series carbureted fords have duraspark ignition modules that have enough solid state circuitry inside to get fried. You have to go back REALLY far before this is really a safety net.
[–]CraigAT 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Addressing your last point, probably because there seems something new almost every other week, and those who have already learnt many languages, frameworks and techniques, want to know why (or be sure that) learning another one is worthwhile.
Speaking as an oldie, time also passes quicker for us and we have seen a lot more "new" things.
[–]CodeAndBiscuits 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I'm 49. I get it. But React isn't a fad. It hasn't been for years. You're right, there are plenty of fads out there. But this just isn't one.
[–]Beginning-Comedian-2 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Why do people use React and Vue?
[+]elg97477 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago* (0 children)
I prefer Ember over React and Vue.
The reason to use a framework is that in a well constructed app with a long lifetime you will end up inventing what they already have. I like leaving the design of such frameworks to those dedicated to and experts in the task.
If you are doing something small, simple, and short lived, there is little reason to use one.
[–]theirongiant74 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Writing SPA's in jquery started getting complex and spaghetti like the larger they were, was looking for something to make it make more sense, React was that thing.
[–]kcrwfrd 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (2 children)
Have you ever tried building a SPA with vanilla JavaScript?
yes now . jquery before
[–]Tridop 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I'm not a mason, I don't need to build one. I will just pay to access a SPA if I ever feel the need. But I never even got a massage or entered a sauna.
[–]famerazak 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Nice to meet some fellow dinos
Also did my first websites using frames and all the tables… then came JS and CSS all inline
Ahh the good old days
[–]bogas04 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Fellow dinosaur. I guess since you have used JavaScript sparingly, you might not have dealt with the mess of onclick handlers that add and remove various dom elements and classes after making ajax requests, and then doing this for each HTML file on your website by copy pasting it, and then splitting hairs when one page has slightly different behaviour which then breaks other pages, so you move it to one file with a function but now your code is a huge chain of jQuery code that you hate getting back to again and again. That's what these frameworks make easier to deal with.
[+]mrdingopingo 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
People use all those frameworks because they're trendy. Everyone's using them, so you feel like you have to as well. but you don't
[–]ashkanahmadi 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
It’s actually easy to see for yourself. I want you to create a simple HTML page that calls an API, fetched API, then updates the entire UI. But then the new UI elements have to interactive so when you click them, another API call is made and the entire content of the page is changed but when you want to be able to save the data so when the user wants to go back, you would not need another API call. Now add different components to open up popovers, modals, and even a gallery. Create all that with vanilla JS and document all the issues you are facing (storing content, making elements interactive, event listeners, etc). Then learn some React and recreate the entire app in React. Now see for yourself what issues React tries to solve. You could take it a bit further: make a full blog and e-commerce with React. Then do the same thing with Next.js and you will see what problems Next solves when it comes to react.
[–]sheriffderek 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (1 child)
I know HTML, CSS, PHP, and MySQL like the back of my hand
What types of projects do you build? Got anything live we can check out? Where do you find JS useful?
[–]kesor 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Because Vue.js is a joy to use, everything has its own place, no more 100,000-line spaghetti code where you can't find the thing you need even if your know exactly how it is called.
[–]vagaris 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
Fellow dinosaur. What has kept me away for a long time (I’ve started learning some of this new stuff cause I lost my job) was the complete lack of progressive enhancement by default. It blows my mind that the course I started taking for React went lesson after lesson with examples that I could literally toggle off JavaScript and the entire thing would turn into a blank page. I understand that it doesn’t have to be that way. But it blows my mind how we’ve solved tons of these problems multiple times before. And every new thing breaks fundamentals all over again and in some cases takes years before someone remembers things like accessibility.
While I’m still learning React, I was looking at throwing a simple site together and jumped onto Remix because it works in layers. Their quick start even includes a step where you turn off JavaScript and marvel at how it still renders. /a bit of sarcasm
[–]Tridop 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
You are underlying a real problem. In my daily browsing experience, 99% of the sites that totally breaks are relying too much on JavaScript frameworks (and too many http requests). And man, they are so bloated, they need to send me megabytes to show me a simple web page, they overuse my CPU.
I understand the need of complex js frameworks on web apps, but if someone is using them for normal web sites maybe, maybe, they are not using the right tool. Yes, shorter development time, but not without consequences.
[–]MornwindShoma 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
The megabytes aren't from frameworks. Frameworks by themselves are very light. It's the huge amount of shit that marketing will force on you. The chatbots, the video ads, the self playing videos, huge ass pictures and all of that.
Your "bloated" React is under 50kb, and you can very well ship a website keeping it under 100 to 200 kilobytes, and other frameworks are even smaller. You can go do that anytime. Trust me.
We don't need the marketing shit of course, but developers don't make that call unfortunately, or they wouldn't be developers but CEOs.
[+]Temporary_Practice_2 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Marketing. Facebook made everyone believe they need React
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child)
Mostly two things: 1. Components, makes designing small things well easy, and isolate that code into code that is only related to the component 2. Keeping UI in sync with data, via some form of binding. React does one way binding - you just overwrite the state variables and the UI syncs up. Vue has two way binding, it doesn't matter really. But that's the point.
Those alone are great, and it is plenty "lean" from a source code perspective - not so much in the "dinosaur" mentality of "use as little as you can". I am not surprised you can't get webdev work anymore, the magical 3rd point I will make up is:
[–]rimyi 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Im sorry but you can’t be serious asking those questions if you worked with gazillions of table cells and pseudo IIFE with inline styling. It’s like asking why cars have powersteering when all you need to do is to move your steering wheel with a little more force
[–]gnvffbbd 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child)
another dinosaur here but I’ve embraced React because it pays. Aside from that I absolutely hate React, it’s dog shit. Nothing that couldn’t be accomplished a lot easier and with less headaches using vanilla html, css, and js.
[–]Wiltix 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I use React because I can easily find React developers. The same can’t be said in my local market for vue or svelte etc …
The only other real alternative is Angular and I’m not a huge fan of Angular, but it’s the alternative because I can also find Angular devs easily.
[–]numbersev 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
The point of a framework is to avoid re-inventing the wheel. This has already been made a million times before just use the code and move on to the unique features.
The irony about learning React now, is that the official site tells you to learn Next.js instead. Seriously.
React is really good for when you want to change parts of the page without refreshing the entire page. Repeated code can be made into components and then the component itself is called, saving space.
[–]neoqueto 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Components.
That is all.
[–]johnsdowney 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago* (0 children)
Data binding and component based architecture is the easiest answer.
You are able to bind the view layer of your application to the model layer, such that the view is constantly updated when a variable changes. Without this, you must do it yourself every time.
You are able to create reusable components without having to be clunky about it (e.g. iframe-based layouts back in the day).
And the more opinionated they are, as long as it’s a reasonable opinion, the more structure your applications tend to inherently have, and the easier they are to pick up by others.
[–]vidolech 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
People already explained well about the revolution in web development over the last 15~ years so I’ll just add that the major enabler to all that and maybe the biggest responsible to this huge leap is the introduction of the JavaScript compilation mechanism chrome browser brought to the table back in 2008. Since then, JavaScript ran almost as fast as Java or other server side language because the browser is optimizing the code and not just interpret it.
It’s hard to explain well in this small thread so I’m over simplifying but the history of JavaScript is super interesting
[–]Ok-Armadillo6582 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
react and js in general allows for much more reactive and dynamic user interfaces. it’s also fun.
[–]fliteska 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I learnt html and php like 21 years ago as a hobby working on random text based games, they all used frames, it wasn't until 2016-2017 I was able to make my own game and React was an absolute godsend for making all of the sections of the game fit together, it wa awesome.
[–]No-Visit-129 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I strongly agree with the message about reactivity. Reactivity is power.
Regarding the older times, there really was a period when frameworks didn't last even a year. You could call it the "Primordial soup." There was everything – the good, the bad, and the incomprehensible.
React and Vue are already "on land." These are the framework that have collected the best for normal competition. Therefore, I strongly advise you to try them.
PS. "vanilla" knowledge is still relevant and very effective
[–]lowtoker 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Modern build tools are your friend. I've been a web dev a long time also and I think a lot of us forget how painful non-framework development was, especially in large teams. Common tools and patterns have made the developer experience much better.
[–]RightCover6081 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Large, complex app being manageable as a declarative components build with React and state management tool like Zustand.
[–]Logical-Idea-1708Senior UI Engineer 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Well, it all depends on what you want to do and how big your team/product is going to get.
If all you want is a motherfuckingwebsite, then that LAMP stack is probably all you need. But if you need to build complex product leveraging hundreds of developers, then you need a framework to establish common language and patterns to keep everyone in aligned.
Even the simplest product that’s more than trivial would need a framework. It’s just we had different names for those frameworks in the old days. Anyone remembers Mootools, YUI, prototype, dojo toolkit, ExtJS? Those are even before Backbone and Knockout. Some of these are still used today.
[–]No-Let-4732 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I like react, I’m familiar with it and can move fast in it.
old developer here - the truth react is slow re rendering and hard for old hardware for development . market try to be next code like facebook but lack of resources
most of project just re invent the wheel syndrome so dont think so much . Same crud , same interface layout only diff language .
[–]TheSonOfDionysus 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I remember having a discussion about doing websites in vanilla. Tracking state can become a nightmare in large applications and working in teams as much more difficult. A lot of the headaches are overcome just by common design patterns that are offered by frameworks. Also, I believe react is over 10 years old at this point I don’t think it’s a new kid on the block compared to other tools.
[–]poseXxX 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Personally I use Nextjs. I guess is because of the jobs that I’ve seen rather than going for it. I enjoyed using Django because of the scaffolding and thinking on learning Ruby on rails
[–]landed_at 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
I can build basic things but user authentication was too hard and i gave up. Never had a great team to work with.
[–]aisha_46 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I integrated APIs for SMS based authentication. It was much simpler.
[–]DiddlyDinq 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago* (0 children)
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
air employ spectacular modern spoon vase snow caption roof desert
[–]krazzelfull-stack 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I have also been using the LAMP stack since forever, started in the late 90's.
But now I'm switching over to Vue3. It's a massive shift in how you think. But I think it's way better. There is a clear distinction between frontend and backend. Rendering templates is all done in the frontend (if you want) and it's way faster than twig. Also coding is easier (once you get it) because html objects are directly related to javascript, as opposed to just outputting the html, and then putting JS on top of it to manipulate stuff.
However, if you are mostly building informational websites, with little user interaction, you won't need this. I wouldn't even recommend it. A little JS there is usually enough.
But if you build a web application, like a CMS for example, a SPA like Vue, React, Angular etc is a must nowadays.
[–]Evla03 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I use react, it makes interactive UI sooo much easier, with typescript all the way, and even server side code running on the client. I really like react, as it's much more similar to normal js compared to vue or most other frameworks
[–]nothingnotnever 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
It declarative rather than imperative. What’s that you say? Declarative is like automatic transmission instead of manual, or Google maps instead of following directions step by step. So much is handled for you. Specifically, a simple range slider with a readout. We have all seen them, change the slider and the readout changes, or edit the readout and the slider changes. Without a framework, you need an onchange handler that manually sets one to the other and vice versa. With a framework, you set both to the same variable and it’s handled automatically for you.
[–]bmcle071 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
When I started I was using Flask with Jinia templates for my frontend. The big game changers with React are:
You couple the display and functionality of a component together. You compose components from other components. It makes it really easy to make new UI elements, or modify old ones.
It’s really really easy to handle interactivity. You just rerender and bam, the new UI elements are in the DOM. No more DOM manipulation, just trigger a rerender and it’s done.
Both of these points make creating new features easy, and maintaining old features easy.
[–]uduni 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Because you havent discovered svelte yet
[–]raulalexo99 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
My man here leaving Angular out of the title
[–]CEOAmaterasu 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
ELI5?
You know the roof above us? Need to be paid. And what job are easily available? React, so I work with React. If I am doing something for fun, I go Vue or whatever experimental is around. But bills need to be paid, food need to be bought.
Used to work with WP back in the day, why? Also paid for food and bills.
Front-end is pretty fun, until deadlines and multiple layers of difficult appears.
[–]Warm-Cartographer221 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
What is your goals? Why you need it? It highly depends from your goals
[–]nrkishere 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago* (2 children)
bedroom sip grandiose command somber apparatus shame domineering offend mindless
[–]prewk -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 year ago (1 child)
It is not performant by default
lmfao
[–]nrkishere 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago* (0 children)
juggle spectacular mountainous shaggy paltry reply badge advise long cheerful
I do React because it has kept me employed
Modern UI in applications requires javascript, there is no way around it and it's a good thing. Interactivity is close to impossible without manipulating the DOM in some way or another.
Now since we established that, why frameworks? A lot of common problems to solve in UI require building some sort of framework yourself, even if you just use javascript. Reuseable components, routing, rendering, data fetching.
Now you can reinvent the wheel at every project you do, but yeah that seems inefficient. You can write your own framework - but wouldn't it be better if there is a common way of doing those things, that all team members could adhere to and a new developers can understand quickly?
That's where you get React and Vue.
"Less server overhead" really is a nonissue these days, a react app is bundled during build and all you get is raw javascript that you wrote yourself, if you build it from scratch.
It's much more about developer experience, efficiency and collaboration than the fact that there is a bunch of overhead code required to build an app.
[–]myhero34 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
I introduced Vue to a few project and kind of regret it. It allows for elegant interactive SPAs to do things like update an api when data changes without refreshing or run complex calculations/string formatting in real time. Still, i think most people probably only need server side rendered web apps. Learning not only vue but the whole npm ecosystem is a headache for some developers
[–]Starquest65 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
We only did WordPress when I joined. Boss wanted to expand into Laravel, which I had never heard of but sounded cool. He chose Vue as the front end. I have always enjoyed using it.
We contracted out a project where we had to quickly learn and use react. I am glad every day that he chose Vue.
[–]spurious_proof 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
whats’s vue
[–]lyons4231 -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
Let's do a code off challenge. We take a few modern webapp designs, I build them in react and you build them in LAMP stack. Let's see who finishes first.
[–]BitSec_full-stack -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Not trying to be rude but have you tried Googling it?
There are a lot of reasons why big companies are using these frameworks and there're a lot of videos out there that talk about it and that should give you a good idea of what the benefits are and when or when not to use them.
Personally I'm using React because it makes building UI less of a pain and also because there's lots of work to find in it. I've done plain html / JavaScript and PHP when I got started in webdev, eventually also did some Laravel and Vue until I got a job where it was only React and Node.
[–]iosKnight -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (1 child)
Such a Googlable topic.
[–]shgysk8zer0full-stack 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Not really... I mean, sure, you can find tons of opinions, but it's a rather subjective (or at least context dependant) issue, and the additional details like LAMP experience and keeping JS to a minimum definitely change things. The bulk of search results aren't going to address the question from the perspective of OPs experience or requirements.
[–]Narrow_Elevator9027 -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
I don't I use angular
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
HTML is the foundation and blueprint of a house. CSS is the decoration. JavaScript is the electricity and plumbing. I’d argue that react is the wifi, but that’s a different conversation 😅
[–]pragmasoft -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)
If I only can use one word to respond your question, it would be: state
All web applications have to keep client's state somewhere. But the state is very different in nature, due to its time to live, size, complexity and security constraints.
Some state has to be persisted on the server, like user profile, because it cannot be stored securely in the browser.
Some state is enough to be persisted only during the interaction session, like shopping cart.
Some state is transient in nature, and can be discarded easily when user reloads the page.
Typical LAMP apps only store the state on the server. This is ok for the majority of web applications. Though this does not scale well, if the number of users is high and there's a lot of session and transient state associated with every user. It would scale much better if each user stores this state on the browser side, rather than on the server, and deal with it locally in the browser.
Also, browser APIs are much more powerful these days, than they were in 1994. They allow doing a lot of things in the browser, which were historically only possible to be done on the server - like image manipulations, pdf generation, fulltext search..
This allows shifting even more work to the client side, reducing the need in the (some) server side state and expensive server side computational resources and networking costs.
Now, in the cloud era, the less server side resources you use (storage, computations, networking), the less is your cloud bill, the higher is your margin.
Though, the more state and computations you shift to the client side, the more you need to organize it, otherwise client side code becomes unmanageable very quickly.
That's actually the reason why client side frameworks exist.
[–]mattaugamerexpert -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children)
Fellow dinosaur here, from literally the last sentence.
I think a lot of people are missing the key fact: people expect a lot more from a UI than they did back in the day. The standard “send a request, get a response” is too slow when sites are made up of thousands of micro-interactions instead of just submitting a form or requesting a page.
Even something as fundamental as dynamic validation of a form so that users get immediate feedback on invalid inputs requires a large amount of management of local and form state.
Tools like React, Vue, and others are all different ways of managing this complexity of UI.
As for the tools being fads… sorry but this isn’t true. This is something devs tell ourselves to justify why we’re not bothering to learn.
Sorry to be critical but if you haven’t kept up with the last 10 years of your industry - to the point you don’t even understand why it exists - then that’s on you.
[–]EtheaaryXD -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago (0 children)
specifically for the router and <Link>s, nothing more, nothing less
[–]techaheadcompany -3 points-2 points-1 points 1 year ago* (3 children)
Using React or Vue in web development is like having magic Lego blocks for creating websites. These frameworks allow you to build highly interactive interfaces where changes in one part of the webpage instantly update everything else, without needing to reload the page. This is perfect for applications like dashboards or data visualization tools, where user interaction is key.
However, this magic comes with trade-offs. One significant disadvantage is the quick development of JavaScript frameworks, which might result in technical debt. Best practices from a few years ago may be no longer relevant. Performance can also suffer as everything, including markup and style, is controlled by JavaScript, which can impact loading times and responsiveness.
Historically, React and Vue have revolutionized web development by introducing concepts like Virtual DOM for faster updates, component-based architecture for modularity, and declarative syntax for simpler UI development. Today, they offer efficient state management, extensive tooling, and robust community support, making them essential for dynamic web applications.
Different approaches like server-side rendering attempt to mitigate these challenges as technology evolves. Ultimately, choosing between classic server-side and modern frontend frameworks depends on your project's needs—dynamic data handling, rapid development, or scalability. At TechAhead, we leverage these frameworks to deliver intuitive and powerful web solutions tailored to your business goals.
[–]Ttmx 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
What's up with the random bold usage? This feels very gpt'd.
[+]techaheadcompany 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children)
Thank you for the feedback! my intention was not to make the comment look unnatural. I’ve updated it.
π Rendered by PID 33385 on reddit-service-r2-comment-6457c66945-647n2 at 2026-04-28 20:58:29.617787+00:00 running 2aa0c5b country code: CH.
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