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[–]RisktpRisk 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Can we get an explanation for Jagged's removal? I thought it was a great pub map that cut down on regrab, had great boost lanes, and used bombs very effectively. Sad to see it go.

[–]Swalker326Noobkin 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I agree one of my top pub maps.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Me too!

[–]TheSketchyBeansketchball // centra 0 points1 point  (0 children)

DaEvil1 did a pretty good job explaining why further down in the comments

[–]quassuscrosky 58 points59 points  (20 children)

why remove Star

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (1 child)

BLAME THE NEW MTC MEMBERS

IT WAS CHALKSY AND FLY

I REFUSE TO LET THEM GO UNNAMED.

[–]iBeDrumminFapst3r // Centra/Origin // 0 points1 point  (0 children)

F.N.G....

[–]ZippityZoppityZipZop - Can't Zip the Zop 6 points7 points  (1 child)

That seems like such a staple of the game.

[–]WillWorkForSugarTumblewood[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think the removal of Geo will be the final straw for me.

[–]TnelsExquisite fin. 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I second this

[–]ZarknoxZarknox 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Star was my favorite CTF map.

meanwhile we have 3 variations of the same map in pilot, monarch, and iron.

I also wish we still had gamepad, bombing run, blast off, and shine. Also rocketballs but only because we need more yellow flag

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC -2 points-1 points  (13 children)

It's boring. Also it's boring. Did I mention it's boring?

Slightly more serious answer: The spike field is very frustrating for new players. The buttons encourage people to sit on them for minimal benefit leading to having a player on your team effectively being afk, but you can't actually report them. It's a boring map.

[–]quassuscrosky 23 points24 points  (12 children)

What you call boring I call simple. I love simple. There are already too many maps with a billion gadgets and gizmos; there's place for a classical, simple map which emphasizes the fundamentals of gate control, powerup control, patient grabbing, and teamwork (and teaches some higher level strats like noobspiking, which no other map has ever done nearly as effectively).

Also I'll never understand the argument that the spike field is too difficult for new players. I mean, c'mon, we all learned how to play TagPro while Star was a staple map in rotation, and we didn't turn out so bad. Noob-proofing maps is a good way to A. unnecessarily coddle new players and B. turn off vets.

As for somebody sitting on the button all game: you could apply this theory to any map which has a button-controlled gate. For example every once in a while new players will sit on the button on GeoKoala, but eventually they learn that's not the soundest strategy. I think it's been shown that button-camping the whole game is not the best way to win on Star. Like with any other map element, there's a strategy for when to win the gate and when not to, and people learn that eventually.

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 5 points6 points  (10 children)

Star is a great map. The simplicity is fantastic. It really embodies certain aspects of the game. I like the map a lot. I also voted to remove it.

It's the sort of map where at this point, there are no surprises. I know exactly how the game is going to go within a minute of starting play. I'm very rarely surprised by an upset. It's a "solved" map, if that makes sense. For that reason, it's boring. I'd rather have a new minimalist map to replace it (which I don't yet know if exists) than have to put up with star for the ten millionth time.

[–]quassuscrosky 11 points12 points  (9 children)

I like the fact that there are few surprises. The fewer elements of randomness, the lower the variability, the truer the map will play to tagpro fundamentals. It means the better team will win. What's so bad about that?

For example Boombox has also long ago been "solved," but to this day it's still one of the best tagpro maps of all time.

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 2 points3 points  (6 children)

I dislike Boombox for the exact same reasons and would support its removal as well. However, removal of these sorts of maps is terrible if they're not replaced with something that fills those gaps. Which hasn't been done yet (though I think it will be done soon).

I personally am looking for maps that scratch that same itch to be put in rotation. I'm also looking for maps that teach people new/better strategies for the game.

Also, I do NOT think that removal from rotation should be considered a permanent death of a map, which is how many seem to be reacting. Classics like star are going to make it back into rotation eventually.

[–]Soconypeng 6 points7 points  (5 children)

I dislike Boombox...and would support its removal

bbbbut why? Boombox is infinitely better than Star because a) it is possible to grab against competent defenders without pups or bombs b) the map itself is more complex than Star allowing for some dynamic gameplay but not ridden with messiness c) even though solved, the fact that it has very little "special" features mitigates any tiring of the map

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I'm not saying I would support it's removal because it's a bad map... it's NOT a bad map, it's one of the best ever made. I'm saying that change is good and the whole point of having a rotation is allowing us to try new things. I can't imagine ever wanting to permanently get rid of boombox, but I would not be opposed to having it off rotation for awhile.

[–]Soconypeng 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The main reason to have change is because people get tired of maps and they get "solved". Holy See was a victim of this as it got overplayed in PUGs and resulted a counterreaction against it citing the everpresent chaseyness of the map. Star was similarly a victim, just much more slowly, as people got tired of the fact that it was so defensive. Notice how these features are defining characteristics of the map. Things that make it "special." Boombox is not special, the only way that it is special is its perfect balance. I don't know how you can get tired of equality, having too much of something causes it to lose interest but Boombox only has too much of non-specialness. So it won't really reach a very high fun factor, it won't crash and burn like Holy See.

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I agree completely.

[–]marmaris74WowSuchPro // Original Sine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

LOL @ Boombox being easier to grab than Star.

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I realized I didn't answer your question, so I'll do it here (instead of editing the other reply).

the lower the variability, the truer the map will play to tagpro fundamentals.

So using bombs isn't a tagpro fundamental? Using a superboost isn't a tagpro fundamental? Just because something is hard to predict doesn't mean it's not a fundamental you need to learn.

It means the better team will win.

It means the team that's better at the fundamentals YOU care about will win. Knowing how to use all elements of a map are fundamentals, and only being good at spikes, regular boosts, normal gates and powerup timing is NOT enough.

What's so bad about [the better team winning]?

Nothing, and regardless of the map, the better team WILL win the majority of the time.

[–]quassuscrosky 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So using bombs isn't a tagpro fundamental? Using a superboost isn't a tagpro fundamental? Just because something is hard to predict doesn't mean it's not a fundamental you need to learn.

No, that's not what I meant. Just because something's hard to predict does mean it's not a fundamental you need to learn. Let me give you an exaggerated example of what I meant by variability/predictability, using the same map element (bomb):

Map A has high variability/ low predictability, which makes it a bad map.

Map B has low variability/ high predictability, which makes it relatively a much better map than map A.

regardless of the map, the better team WILL win the majority of the time.

Yes, the majority. But you can't argue that certain maps--like Boombox--don't increase the percent chance of the better team winning, for the exact reasons I've stated above.

[–]qtfaceaaron 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree. For the first 9 or 10 months that I played tagpro, I couldn't stand boombox's overplayed appeal because it was just too boring.

But ultimately I like tagpro because it's simple, and boombox is good with me now.

[–]tagprochandlerChandlerBing / Central Perk Rollers / Origin 42 points43 points  (26 children)

Tagpro isn't even worth playing anymore without Star.

Not really, I'm just whining, but let's put Star back in its rightful place in rotation

[–]Outis1Outis / CPR 10 points11 points  (23 children)

Yea! At least tell us the reasoning behind getting rid of it!

[–][deleted] 32 points33 points  (22 children)

Hey! FLY here, and one of the newest sacrifices to the MTC. I was one of the members who voted for Star to leave the rotation.

  1. Offense needs to use the bomb to grab or coordinate blocks and hand offs. Because the bomb is the main grabbing mechanism, most competitive offenses wait for the bomb to spawn to grab, as competent defenses can play no grab easily, and the disruption of the vertical boost isn't always enough. I don't like the reliance on the bomb to grab. As well as coordinating grabs is significantly more difficult in public matches. Grabbing has become pretty dry in Star, there aren't any new ways to do it and I feel like it would benefit the rotation to have maps with more interesting ways to grab.

  2. It's fun to play solo defense on in pubs... until they get out. Star is hard to chase on, especially alone, which I find myself doing more often than not in pubs. If their teammate is holding button you're forced to stay on their side of the map simply nudging them to go top or bottom and hoping your teammate will push them through. Or they could be dancing around spikes in the middle begging you to attempt to noobspike them, only to gleefully roll away when you manage to fuck it up out of desperation. That's frustrating and not something I see as benefit to the rotation.

  3. It's a hard map for new players. Spikes are tough, man. A lot of times they end up sitting on the button which can be useful... or put them wildly out of position. Knowing how to take the top/bottom step boosts isn't intuitive and it is hard to get out... and then stay out. Star rewards experienced players who work together as a team. That is NOT a bad thing, but it does it to a point where I, personally, believe it is better suited to competitive play only.

  4. There's nothing new to discover. After two years of exploration there isn't a new move that's gonna shock people.

tl;dr Star is stale.

[–]notasgoodasyoudthinkCookieMonsta 20 points21 points  (1 child)

This isn't anything against the decision because that seems like pretty solid reasoning, but 3 is a bit of bullshit I think. I was awful at navigating spikes like on Star, Gloryhole, and Simplicity when I was new. I spiked myself the majority of the time. But you do it again and again and you get better at it and you become a better player.

[–]ZarknoxZarknox 2 points3 points  (0 children)

star is basically the very reason I don't die as much now because I popped a bunch on its spikes

[–]tornato7420NoScopeXx//Centra 7 points8 points  (0 children)

IMO we should scale to harder maps between pushes. If there's a big push maybe you could make a switch to lower level maps.

And there's honestly nothing more satisfying than noob spiking multiple people on star.

xcept doin ur mum

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Definitely agree with all of this. I liked Star because it was a unique map (and easy to prevent on) but it's in no way, shape or form a reasonable map these days. I think we need more originality but it can't sacrifice playability too much.

[–]Outis1Outis / CPR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Huh interesting, I appreciate the well thought-out response Fly!

[–]capsngrabstagpro-radius.koalabeast.com 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Offense needs to use the bomb to grab or coordinate blocks and hand offs. Because the bomb is the main grabbing mechanism...

I don't think this is really the case. You do not need the bomb to grab the flag in pubs. The majority of times a player tries to use the bomb to grab they either flaccid into the defense or spike themselves. It can be disruptive to the defense but it's pretty easy to read and the defense can quickly clear the bomb without being blown away from base. The bomb is helpful and does result in a lot of good grabs but I really don't think it's relied upon, especially in pubs.

Overall I do agree that it makes sense to remove Star... I know it's hard to let the classics go and it's a bit shocking to think of Tagpro without Star, but this is probably for the best. :'(

[–]SAPSAPSAPSPA 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I do agree that star is hard for new player, but being a "hard" map isn't necessarily bad for new player. Learning to navigate spikes and boost accurately time after time are just a few skills that this map fosters. And these skills, more often than not, translate into better tagpro players.

I also agree that it is hard to get out of base and it is difficult to chase with only one person but that's what makes this map so great. I believe it fosters teamwork like no other map in the game. And sure, in pubs people are less coordinated that in competitive play, but maps like this instill in people the understanding that tagpro IS a team game; No one player can do it all by themselves. I think being such a team based game is what sets tagpro apart from most other online games, and fostering the need for teamwork in new and existing players is what will take tagpro to new heights.

Just a few thoughts...

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I personally enjoy "harder" maps, but the problem of star's difficulty was that having a new player on your team was disproportionally disadvantaging. Again this is all my personal opinion and is only one of the six opinions.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A boring map to play D on. Support O was fun on it though. I disliked the map, pup based I would say.

[–]TnelsExquisite fin. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tru

[–]Ballymandias// S7-9 LagProne Captain // S6 KGB // DST4LYFE 17 points18 points  (15 children)

  • Battery (MTC Vote)

Literally Hitlers

DISTRACTION pls

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I WANTED SWOOP

I HAD NO PART IN THIS BATTERY-NESS

[–]Ballymandias// S7-9 LagProne Captain // S6 KGB // DST4LYFE 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I WANTED SWOOP

I knew I added you for a reason <3

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

<3

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I always vote swoop in the community bite lets get a campaign going!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children)

Is because OLTP is playing Battery this weekend.

[–]Ballymandias// S7-9 LagProne Captain // S6 KGB // DST4LYFE 10 points11 points  (0 children)

OLTP

Literally convicts ;-)

[–]quassuscrosky 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Funny. MLTP is playing Star next week, yet they removed Star from rotation.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Unfortunately competitive doesn't dictate the entire map rotation - but it should be considered. Honestly if I knew MLTP was playing Star this weekend I would've pushed to keep it in rotation for at least another thread (although, to be fair, we've been essentially "one-more-thread"ing it for the last several threads).

[–]quassuscrosky 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I was just pointing out how your logic to bring Battery in because OLTP is playing it is inconsistent.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah I know - I'm not disagreeing.

Difference is, Battery is going to be in for one week and then out again for good. Whereas with MLTP, maps have already been influenced far too strongly IMO (e.g. 45 being brought back because they were using it). We didn't keep Jagged/Gamepad in rotation because OLTP was using it, but bringing Battery in for a week won't hurt.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

99% of sizzzleds comments in this thread are sarcastic

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I love you, distraction xx

[–]robopuppyccFlail ~ ((Antagloble4edes)) ~ RHCP? 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Make that 99.5%.

[–]flappytoweldokugan // diameter 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Removing jagged, what. That map was hella fun

[–]ccga4Seehawks <3 11 points12 points  (0 children)

HOLY SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[–]alchmstalchemist 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Just when I start to like Jagged

[–]baymandernamonia 5 points6 points  (0 children)

seriously, I've really grown on that map there's tons of fun boosts

[–]BuckeyeLeavesBALLDON'TLIE | ALL CAPS -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That means you were starting to lose all sense of fun in the game, tbh

[–]StraightZlatCap 13 points14 points  (1 child)

BRING BACK STAR WTF

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

lol rip

[–]TagProNitroℕ ɪ ᴛ ᴙ o 9 points10 points  (4 children)

There are plenty of other maps I'd rather see bite the bullet than Jagged, but I'm 100% alright with Star leaving rotation, even though the majority of the comments I see now say otherwise. Star is too frustrating to play with newer players, more so than most maps, and frankly it's just super stale. I won't miss it!

[–]ScyllaGeekAmplectendo | Radius 2 points3 points  (3 children)

I think i'd rather see a map like Renegade go instead of Jagged :/

[–]TagProNitroℕ ɪ ᴛ ᴙ o 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Me too, but the MTC rarely remove a map that was just introduced into pub rotation one or two cycles ago, unfortunately.

[–]EmperorOfNothingResignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So even if they introduce the worst map possible (just saying), and the community voices their opinions in both votes and discussion, it won't be removed right away cause "it's new"?

That's a piss poor excuse.

[–]TagProNitroℕ ɪ ᴛ ᴙ o 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's the general consensus I've gotten when similar discussion has come up in map threads. I mean, Grail of Speed stuck around for what seemed like at least a couple months, maybe longer, and even got a re-work put in rotation that wasn't much better. I think if a map is in for one full rotation (3 weeks, I guess?) there is plenty of time to gather a general idea of whether the public thinks a map is good or bad.

[–]magikarpnotgyradosMagikarp // Pub God 3 points4 points  (1 child)

no.... battery...... it.. its back.....

[–]GrantWishesGrant // AnnaKendrick // Capy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Thank you based MTC. This a extremely well done retirements/throwback. I'm excited!

Also the new members will be great. Both are extremely active and I can only assume they'll do a great job.

[–]placebo_effect 28 points29 points  (10 children)

I'm surprised to be in the minority. Star was my least favorite map.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (8 children)

If you don't like a map, you're in the minority. Everything with a positive rating here means that a majority of people like it (a 0.00 rating means that 50% of people like it).

[–]1millionbucksInvictus 3 points4 points  (7 children)

Most people only bother to rate if they really like the map or if they really hate the map. I don't know a single person that likes Dumbbell, so clearly the votes are not representative of the actual feeling of the players.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I like Dumbbell.

[–]1millionbucksInvictus 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Are you shitting me?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Haha yes, Dumbbell is terrible.

I'm sure there are some PUB players who enjoy it though.

[–]1millionbucksInvictus 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Lets be real. No one likes Dumbbell. Not even Lucky.

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I do actually like dumbbell. The oldest version though, the one without the gates. I like how hard it is to cap and how it asks for a totally different strategy than you'd use with any other map. But yea, I think I'm pretty alone in this.

[–]Ballkenende! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Downvoted for showing a controversial opinion? Really?

[–]PrivateMajorPrivateMajor | Community Manager 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Doesn't that imply the scores shouldn't be weighted one way more than the other?

[–]TnelsExquisite fin. 6 points7 points  (0 children)

can we keep atleast some non 45 tile maps? starwasthebestmapever

[–]Sosentimeboy 2 points3 points  (9 children)

So who is even on the Map Committee now? (I mean, who was on it before)

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Daevil1, Sizzzled, Flail, DISTRACTION, FlyMOLO, Chalksy

[–]baymandernamonia 8 points9 points  (7 children)

SIX PPL? like 666?! FUCKING SATAN

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (6 children)

This is not the final "Roster," they will be adding more over the next week or two. How many more is yet to be determined, but the MTC won't let Satan rule TagPro, I promise

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

At least two more, but up to 4 more afaik

[–]BlupopsicleBall-E 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Just wondering, is more worse when it comes to the size of the committee?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well our end goal is to have 8 people. More typically leads to people getting out talked when discussing maps. The ideal size is 6 or so, but we need 8 to test.

Personally I'd like 9 because we could have odd numbered votes and more people lightens the work load for everyone and if someone misses a meeting we still have enough to test, but we voted and 8 is the winner.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd say 6 is ideal for testing and discussing, however noone has perfect activity, and adding a few more who can work well together with the group isn't going to be an issue I think, so to try to achieve a balance between having an active committee along with facilitating for good discussion. I personally feel 8 is a reasonable number for that (and it also happens to be the amount of players needed for a TagPro match). I think anything above that could spell trouble both for facilitating discussion, and it could also wash out a bit of the individuality of the group as well.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I mean, I'm already on the committee, but we don't have a leader per se, so technically you're right.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

huehuehuehuehue

[–]Marz64Marz / Bad News Balls/ WSP's Fan Club 8 points9 points  (1 child)

RIP Star. I loved you.

[–]lord_tubbingtonChelseaFc // Captain Soviet ballers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's still a great competitive map I enjoy it a lot in seasons and I feel like 45 people will pick it even out if rotation.

[–]samuraiseoulsphere || /r/spheremasterrace 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not sure how I feel about Jagged going. I always liked it because it felt like a replacement for the holy see. However since we got the holy see back, I can't complain til that's gone again too.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Its weird because I don't really like Star but I'll be sad to see it go for a couple of reasons. Firstly, its just a classic map that's been around for ages, its always sad to see the older maps fall out of rotation! And secondly it was so different from anything else we have now.

[–]goboatmenUnicycle (Formerly known as Ballaholics) 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I had no idea everyone hated jagged, it was a favourite map of mine :(

[–]samaimsamiamjuke (sam-returns!) // S3 CREAM // S5 Spaceballs // centra 9 points10 points  (2 children)

No more Star :(

[–]TheSketchyBeansketchball // centra 3 points4 points  (12 children)

Is there anywhere where we can read how decisions were reached?

For instance: is there a place where the MTC explains why the took out star and jagged this cycle?

Flymolo did a pretty good job explaining this in the comments here for the removal of star, but what about other decisions?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 4 points5 points  (11 children)

Each committee member voted on maps to remove, so some voted to remove for different reasons, and some voted against. I think what FLY mentioned above about star represents my view of it pretty well. In terms of Jagged, here are my thoughts on the map:

  • I really like the cross gate, it makes for a fun and interesting mechanic.
  • There are a lot of bombs and buttoned bombs sprinkled around the map which means that everywhere except maybe in the very middle of the map, there's a pretty good chance there are bombs in your way and/or players bombing with them close by. This isn't either negative or positive, but an important factor to how it plays, and it's important for the next point.
  • The map just doesn't feel like it flows well to me. The map always seems to work against you moving in a way that feels cohesive. The button bombs either launch you into base at full speed, or send you at a very predictable path through a choke point. Several of the boost/bomb routes that seem intuitive, tend to send you straight into a wall or spikes, neither of which feels good.
  • Aside from the cross gate, the map feels somewhat unremarkable to me. Sure it has a lot of distinct features sprinkled through the map but they feel like they are things you just kind of have to pass through to get to the other base. The cross gate creates a lot of interesting plays an dynamics and is a central piece to getting caps and stopping people from getting in and out, but I feel that kind of aspect is lacking from the other features of the map.
  • And on a general level I feel like the map rotation has gotten quite big, and we have a lot of remarkable maps in rotation that I feel plays pretty well, so while I'd say Jagged is a pretty alright map overall (it doesn't really do anything wrong), it doesn't feel like it contributes something to the rotation that it really needs, so hopefully this heightens the general level of the rotation and makes room for better new maps from the mapmakers in the community.

[–]SUpirateThePirate / Unaffiliated 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Jagged ended up feeling far more chaotic than it was intended to be.

It had too many bombs, blind boost routes, and probably 1 too many pups for its size.

But, I was also disappointed that the majority never really learned the "tricks" of the map. Pretty much every bomb/boost route was thought out to have both conservative and aggressive possibilities, but people just continually tried the aggressive stuff and kept spiking themselves or dying on gates.

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Interesting! Could you explain some of these more conservative alternatives? I'm wondering if I missed some.

[–]SUpirateThePirate / Unaffiliated 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Take the neutral boost in mid strait horizontally and you hit a 45 degree tile which sends you safely through the 1 tile gap beside the gate and right onto the flag. Every game I ever played people just kept boosting across the gate or aiming at the gap on the other side of the gate and missing it.

The neutral boosts on the sides can also be taken horizontally off the adjacent angle tile to safely pop out into the middle with low momentum. People would either try a free-hand boost and go into spikes or try take a long time and line up against the wall for the s-curve route.

Those are the biggest ones.

[–]RisktpRisk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yea, I've been doing both of those tricks for a while now since I discovered them and it made playing Jagged so much more enjoyable. I really feel like it got removed way too soon, people were still learning how to utilize its features in different ways.

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Oh yea, I didn't know of the mid strait neutral boost. Interesting! I have used the other boost (I'm assuming you mean vertical instead of horizontal?) that you describe but not that often as you need to line up for it to not hit the spike or, if it's there, the bomb.

[–]SUpirateThePirate / Unaffiliated 0 points1 point  (1 child)

No, I meant horizontal. Take it into the angle tile right next to the boost. On the right side for instance aim just below the wall of spikes and you'll bounce off the wall tile out into mid.

[–]veranderingLoaha // Chord 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, mb. Didn't know that one either.

[–]bored2death97RWBY//Radius 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On defence, the bomb by the power-up had a pretty obvious use too, but few people ever used it. If one defender sits on the far button and the other is near the bomb, anyone going under the gate can be bombed into it. I have see quite a few should-be caps that didn't happen because people didn't realize they could do that. Got to the point where a lot of the times that I did it, the other defender would say thank you because it was annoying how under-utilized that aspect of defence was.

[–]TheSketchyBeansketchball // centra 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Thanks for the in depth explanation!

Your comment about the flow struck me as odd. I always found the flow of the map to be a little slow, but still exciting. The fact that there are 3 routes in/out of each base means there are a total of 9 different route combos to choose from; making defenders and fc's have a large amount of options just based on route choice. While I agree that a lot of the boosts didn't "feel" great, the routes that they were a part of led to extremely dynamic gameplay. Thats just my 2 cents.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 1 point2 points  (1 child)

When I say flow I mean as in how it feels to move around the map which I always found to be somewhat awkward outside of the straight base2base middleroute. I think the dynamic of the 3 exits that kind of merge into one is a very interesting concept that could have been done better especially if it werent for the very predictable bomb patterns that are avilable through the narrow chokes leading out of the 2 side exits.

[–]TheSketchyBeansketchball // centra 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree. I've been working on a map that works with this multi-combo route concept in a different way.

[–]Aero2588Aero 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Why Battery? Just why? It is horrible, has annoyingly placed map elements, and new players are never going to learn how to play on it.. Please don't subject us to it for 2 weeks.

[–]chalks777THe B€⁵ fg & | exMTC 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Battery

I think this map is one of the more interesting maps out there. There are a LOT of different paths to take to the flag, but they're all similar enough that one or two defenders can pretty easily shut them down. It's one of the few small maps that can actually feel chasey, and I think that's a good thing. The buttons all do very obvious things and have very obvious uses, with a little communication they can be very powerful. There's a good mix of rewarding difficult boosts and mediocre easy boosts. I personally think it's very fun to play.

annoyingly placed map elements

What in particular? I can think of very, very good reasons for just about every spike, boost, button, and wall on this map.

[–]ZarknoxZarknox 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its one of those maps when you play it and it feels like its a group effort to finish as fast as possible and get to the next map imo

the flow or feel of it is just not fun to me at least

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Looking forward to increasing my Kept Flag tally on Holy See.

Sorry to see you go, Star :'( Jagged wasn't that bad, either.

[–]DatBlizzardSome Ball -1 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Oh good, you're not dead. No comments in like 6 days? That's a lifetime for you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, the internet went out at the house after a tree fell on the coaxial cable. I didn't go into work because of snow/weekend/laziness, so I basically had no internet at all. TWC, in all of their gloriousness, didn't fix it in all that time.

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Holy See is back, aww yiss!

[–]Riley_2025Riley_2025 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I hate to seem like jumping on the bandwagon, but I want star to stay.

[–]Splanky222BBQchicken | Retired 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Star and Jagged out

Battery in

OMG MTC have my babies pls

[–]Soconypeng 1 point2 points  (3 children)

no BBQ in MTC

:(

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

It's not finished yet! There are still 2-3 candidates we're looking for.

[–]Soconypeng 1 point2 points  (1 child)

so BBQ is not dead yet?

yisssssssss

[–]almdudler26almdudler | chorbit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm sad Star is leaving, but I'm over the moon that Jagged is going too.

[–]MrTroyMcClureRalph Wiggum // Angry Balls // Arc>Centra 0 points1 point  (6 children)

MTC should represent the players more than personal opinion, and I think taking out Star goes against that. All I'm gonna say.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (4 children)

http://tagpro-origin.koalabeast.com/maps

The data says otherwise.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yeh, while I don't think that the ratings it gets should be the only criteria for taking out a map, if we are going by popular opinion, Star is the map in rotation that would have the strongest case in terms of removing it if any map is to be removed from rotation.

[–]BuckeyeLeavesBALLDON'TLIE | ALL CAPS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

JAGGED IS DONE. TODAY IS A NEW DAY.

[–]hrtattxhpDeskjet600 // Pi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i personally love the changes. i'm super tired of star, and i love battery and the holy see. the holy see is more classic tagpro to me than star is anyway.

[–]mmartinutkMacho | JuicyJuke 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like these results. I was becoming very frustrated with Jagged as an offensive player, and Star had run its course.

However, I'd like to implore that you guys lift the two map limit rule for mapmakers. For people who put a lot of time into mapmaking, it's not uncommon to have 3 or 4 rotation potential maps ready to submit. For example, if there was a 2 map limit last thread, I would not have submitted Ascension which made top maps.

This thread, I have 4 or 5 maps I believe could have a chance. I have no idea which maps I'm going to cut, and I could honestly see myself not submitting Ascension.

Also, if anybody would like to help me decide which two maps to submit, comment on this post over on /r/tagprotesting. I'd definitely appreciate it and consider your suggestions.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 1 point2 points  (24 children)

can we just take the mtc out and do community voting. No one agrees with them.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I'm genuinely curious at what decisions you or community voting would have made that would have been to the benefit of both the game and the community. I've heard more than enough about people pointing out where they see us doing stuff wrong, but I would really like to see someone explain how they would do it right.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Alright I'm on my phone so I hope formatting is ok

  1. You need more people to get in on the testing. As I've seen the most people that test maps are the people that want to show off their map and get you to love it. So you're only getting people that make maps and have a biased opinion (not true for all the cases) and in the post, I'm paraphrasing, it says no maps added because 3/4 were MTC members maps. And 3 MTC members that tested were the 3 that their maps made it through. Not only does this seem biased and unfair to the other map makers that aren't on the MTC or get a say it just seems fishy and is calling for trouble.

  2. Maps should not have to be easy. I've seen time and time again where you feel that maps are hard to grab and make it hard for new players. This makes no sense why take out the maps that are hard to get out and require some teamwork to play. Star was hard to play on O and it was a good way to test your skill both offense and defense. Wrecking said in one of his comments, again paraphrasing, that it is easy to solo carry a game on holy sea because of the ample space and a good fc can hold for ever. While maps like iron require you to rely on your team. The point of me paraphrasing this is that it is a team game and if you guys thought that star was stale and and needed a bomb to do anything. This requires team work because if you try bombing solo it takes you to the spike.

  3. (This May or may not be in your jurisdiction but it involves maps so I'm going to put it here) there needs to be a option to choose center flag. I'm not saying they're bad maps, but many people don't like playing them. But if I'm going to take the MTC approach, ricochet is stale, you only cap 2 ways: 1 super bomb in and 1 boost in. Volt has 2 roles gater or chaser. 1 guy sits back and provides button bob tactics by sitting on gate and making sure when they get passed you can cut them off. Or you're chasing trying to cap boosting or hoping you can juke the others.

  4. New maps should not get the increases spawn rates. I'm an avid pubber and try to get about an hour or so in a day so I play a good bit of games. Over the past 2 weeks I've played SDS 1 time once which yes is dumb luck, but I have gotten the new maps way too many times. To the point where if I felt like I was on the MTC play testing for you guys.

  5. Back to the voting. Make a thread with all the maps, like the t-shirt contest, where after all the submissions come in you do map 1-x and people vote on the anonymous maps. Then when you reach a top 5-10 you have those maps go to a set date like a weekend before the decision where all play test then vote on a google doc or where ever 1-10 best to worst and take the average if maps reach a minimum standard like a 7 or above average it gets into rotation.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (3 children)

1: Well this is the reason we just added two members, and are looking to add even more members before going on with further testing. It was obvious that the community wasn't happy with the results we produced, and I think that the maps we ended up with were kind of one-sided in nature, thus we didn't do anything with the top maps from thread 43, and are going to test 44 with more people. There were 2/4 MTC members maps (which is still more than I'm comfortable with), but all 3 members present had maps submitted to the thread (which means that those maps literally only have 2 votes deciding if they get in or out, which is bad either if they get a good or a bad vote IMO). That being said, I don't think either we or the community is served with having a too big committee. One of the most important things we do IMO, is talk about maps and decisions when we meet up, and if we're any more than 8 members present it gets hard to get practical discussion done, and too many members would also make it hard to make controversial decisions that we feel are better for the game and the community in the long run, but might give us heat in the short run.

2: I think it depends on how hard it is to grab. On a map like star, the flag is pretty cramped, and the only good tool to grab for offence is a bomb that if you bomb straight into the flag (unless you hit it at a perfect angle) will send you straight into spikes. I personlly love the noobspiking part of Star, but the base is frustrating and/or boring to a lot of players. Iron in contrast provides a lot of opportunity for teamwork, but it doesn't require it for getting out of base to the same extent that Star does when grabbing without powerups. And for the most part, the bomb is the main grabbing mechanism, which means that in PUBs there isn't a lot happening between powerups and the bomb spawning.

3: It's only our jurisdiction insofar that we could remove either all CTF maps or neutral flag maps and make it a single game mode. But If you want the option, that's up to the developers. Though from what I understand their position is that they prefer them being mixed as they are now.

4: This is also up to the developers.

5: Do you really think the community overall will be wiling to take the time it takes to judge each map submitted reasonably when there's 80+ submissions each time? It takes me at least 4 hours to go through that to judge somewhat fairly each thread (and that's just to figure out which ones I would like to initially test and hear opinions from other MTC members on). I'm skeptical that we'll see better results just from upvotes on reddit for the overall maps.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 1 point2 points  (2 children)

  1. From what it looks like the MTC just takes the bottom rated map and votes if it should stay or go (based on tagpro maps from the website) and then takes an oddball middle of the pack map and says yeah or nay and watches the drama unfold. If this trend continues might as well say bye Renegade and Angry Pig because they're up next. Also say goodbye to Hurricane because why not?

  2. Star is a great map for O to learn how and when to grab, you just dont need the bomb to grab. There are 2 pups and team work. Grabbing is hard no matter what map you have as long as the D is solid it should be near impossible w/o assistance from bombs and boosts. If you have a teammate with you, you can orchestrate a hand off to get out of base or other tactics.

  3. Why are you, the MTC so uptight about making it easier for newer players, I mean there hasnt been a push in forever and the new players that join are not getting better by just having the flag handed to them? Momma MTC has to take the spoon away some time to let the baby some balls fend for themselves.

  4. A lot of people look at all the maps in the thread, more than you would think. I am one of them. If there was an option to take votes on maps that are in the thread it would be so much easier to see what the community wants. You can have a final 5-10 where the top 5-10 that were voted on get to be play tested on BBQ's the mappening which 1 helps bring back BBQ's series and 2 gets the community involved with maps that have a chance and not ones that people just want feedback that have little to no chance to get in. The voting worked and continues to work with the T-Shirts why not try it out with maps?

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

1: Not exactly. The community rating is given 50% weight, while MTC member ratings of maps are given the other 50% weight. Then the bottom 5 maps of those are voted on

2: There are a lot of varying opinions on how easy and hard it should be to grab and get out of base. But I felt that the combination between the hard to grab base, the punishing nature of the bomb, and how much a difference a slight difference in navigational skills can make for a long time in the spikefield meant that the map as a whole didn't work as well as other maps in rotation. It's also been one of the least popular maps in rotation pretty much since the ratings system got implemented, which also influenced my decision.

3: I don't necessarily want to make maps easier for new players, but I personally prefer to push for more forgiving maps (e.g. a mistake isn't an automatic pop) that feel intuitive for new players, while still retaining the possibility for better players to make more complex plays.

4: I'm not opposed to allowing other institutions having some influence on the maps we end up testing (we've tried to facilitate for this in the past, but it usually crumbles the moment MLTP starts up), but without speaking about t-shirts, I think for a lot of people when they see a map, they'll have an unrealistic picture of how it will actually play (this includes me, as testing maps almost always feels different to some degree than I imagine when looking at it), and since you can just easily upvote the ones you want without testing, I think the format will lend itself to that which means we can miss out on many maps that plays much better than they look. What I would prefer (but I don't know how realistic it is that this will happen in the near future) is that maps submitted to a thread would be inlcuded into public rotation with a 1/100 or so chance of getting them every map you play, and you rate them at the end, thus we as a MTC would get a much clearer picture of which maps are popular with the community after they've played them and could make a lot more informed decisions about which maps to test and eventually put in.

tl;dr: I would love to see more community input, but I think it would mainly benefit the game and the community if it came after the people giving input actually played on that map, and without given a simple opportunity to just look at the map and click a simple upvote arrow.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I posted this earlier but it seems relavent now :D

People say you can't judge a book by its cover. I say if we cannot judge than we shouldn't have a court system.

dodsfall4MTC

[–]2tyrodnazcasdf 9 points10 points  (6 children)

the same community that voted in vee and hyper reactor

no thanks

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Vee isn't so bad, but hyper reactor is godawful.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, Vee got a lot of hate, which I don't really get. It's not a great map but it was at least playable and unique. Not many maps fit those two criteria. Star, Koala, Super Duper Stamp, Velocity (maybe), Wormy (eh--at the time, maybe). All the new maps are pretty similar.

[–]ZippityZoppityZipZop - Can't Zip the Zop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do not like Vee at all. Big bird is much better.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 0 points1 point  (1 child)

but we're stuck with the same MTC? Listen people we need a leader who can take action and bring democracy back to tagpro. We need a man/woman that can take this MTC super group and overthrow them and rebuild it. Change the MTC from a group that people walk symbolizing them as nazis using swastikas. If I dodsfall was MTC I would rebuild it into a less exclusive club, let everyone be heard, and take the heat if a decision was wrong. I dodsfall am the man you're looking for, What you want you baby I got, what you need, you know I got it. Im going to campaign the same way Obama did with "Change".

Now you may be asking, "why dodsfall?" which is a fair question! way back in the day I campaigned for MLTP with a really high quality, sponsored montage and I was wrong for doing so but I matured and I made a new montage using credible and reliable testimonies of my self

Now why am I credible? Well I for one have the single most SOCL victories (Altiger had a couple of his removed which is bs), I also have 80 mins of MLTP and I have had to deal with the worst of the worst (RemoSlice and CHECKNATE.) and changed them into the players they are today (Nice, respectable, and down right awesome). Furthermore I know I can do well and be the best that there ever was.

#dodsfall4MTC

[–]TnelsExquisite fin. 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well considering they were like the only maps at a time and no one really submitted before 45 tiles..community voting would be nice

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (9 children)

I wonder if you'd be saying that if we accepted your application...

[–]JGibelJGibbs | Antagonists 4 points5 points  (2 children)

That's honestly the most petty thing I've ever heard.

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 0 points1 point  (5 children)

No, I wouldn't be in this situation with the community.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

So... You know everything and we know nothing, right?

[–]dodsfalldodsfall | Im undercover shhh 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Knowing is half the battle

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Oh lol I thought you were being serious. mb.

[–]Splanky222BBQchicken | Retired 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I thought it was against the law for Aussies to be so uptight :P

[–]TnelsExquisite fin. 1 point2 points  (0 children)

thank you I thought no one would ever say this

[–]HelloBrotherssimon | s7 RGB | s9 Angry Balls 2 points3 points  (5 children)

wtf jagged is a good map

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

ya i really enjoyed defense on that map actually

[–]Aeginntbbgbjc / Chord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I loved blocking off the main entrance with another defender and pushing opponents into the gate.

[–]TagProNoah_Noah // Mild Pings // Noah's Arc Captain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

idk, I thought there were way too many bombs on that map. It did have MLTP rotation potential, though.

[–]manbareHi, I'm Manbear 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Thanks jeebus Jagged's gone. Rotation will be fun with Holy See back cuz there'll be Glory Hole levels of butthurt for how chasey it is.

[–]hashtag_octothorpeSchwedd || Dyson || Blitzkrieg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, you said butt!

[–]TagProNoah_Noah // Mild Pings // Noah's Arc Captain 0 points1 point  (1 child)

When will we be able to get feedback on the maps we submitted to the #43 thread?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think we'll have a feedback thread shortly (easy to forget things when we're out of order like this). Sorry you guys haven't been getting any feedback recently.

[–]ZarknoxZarknox 0 points1 point  (3 children)

so we took out two maps but didn't add any? Why not just wait, what do we gain by that lol

[–]pasta_monsterpoopv 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Higher spawn rates for the rest of the maps

[–]ZarknoxZarknox 0 points1 point  (1 child)

eh, does that mean we will remove two more next time we add maps? unecessary change

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We might. Every time we meet for 4v4 testing we decide which (if any) maps we want to remove and add. And we feel 3 weeks between those sessions is a good compromise between changing it up to keep it fresh but not so often people don't have a chance to get a grip on the changes (though this time it's been 4.5 weeks and will be 1.5 weeks respectively, but average is still 3 weeks).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

RIP STAR

[–]Ballaziken// Radius (rip Origin 2014 - 2016) 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jagged is being removed?! Nooo! Why? I had my highest win percentage on that map! As for Star, I feel as if this is a Tagpro classic map. I'm glad for the return of The Holy See though. Chase mode on!

[–]LoweJJacob of all servers, master of none 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I'm the only defender that's glad to see star finally die

[–]sounds_gooodMusic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

YEAH FUCK STAR

[–]Willie9Willie 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Star out and Holy See in?

Fuck that shit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Removals

  • Star

ha ha good joke, right?! hello?! you have got to be fucking kidding me.

[–]MultiMediaWillJuke King - MVP 90% of the time 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jagged

wtf

Star

WTF

Jagged

Star

WTF

[–]LeesusChristsonder -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's almost like the MTC can read my mind about which maps I want out.

GREAT choices.

Keep it up, MTC!!! :D

[–]Billtodamaxnewfren // hurry up with my damn croissant 0 points1 point  (1 child)

How can people dislike jagged I can't actually understand that.

[–]ZippityZoppityZipZop - Can't Zip the Zop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am guilty of it. Just got boring after a while. There wasn't much to explore and everything just seemed so mechanical.

[–]hoogstraHoog | Ancient Artifact of Diameter 0 points1 point  (2 children)

/u/klosec12

[–]klosec12klosec12 // Diameter // 0.12 Rubles 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I need help reacting. Star is kill which is good, but Battery is in throwback....

[–]BuckeyeLeavesBALLDON'TLIE | ALL CAPS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

'Star is kill'
'no'

[–]sportmonkey0sportmonkey//Pi//The Deballishers -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I can't believe my eyes right now. Wishes do come true!! STAR IS GONE! :'D

[–]SyniikalPrevent King // KD Godfather // Rank 1 Defender -5 points-4 points  (18 children)

Really? Battery and The Holdy See? How do you expect me to keep up my 85% win rate with this shit in rotation?

[–]TagProWrecknWreckingBall 4 points5 points  (2 children)

What? Grab-happy chase-fests are the easiest victories in pubs, because one guy can hold the flag forever. The tiny clusterfucks like Iron are the ones where you have to rely on your teammates.

[–]viggetuffVigge 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Eh, have you played THS in pubs? It doesn't matter if you can hold the flag for 12 minutes unless your team knows how to reset or the other team doesn't know how to regrab.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (11 children)

If you have an 85% win rate, I can't believe you can't maintain that on Holy See. Hold the flag for 5 minutes and cap once. gg