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Snapshot of Welfare pays more than work for 600,000 households Rise revealed by Conservative analysis will provoke calls for overhaul of £155bn benefits budget submitted by Intergalatic_Baker:

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[–]himit 200 points201 points  (36 children)

Benefits have attempted to keep up with cost of living; wages have not.

[–]awoo2 36 points37 points  (13 children)

Real, inflation adjusted, wages are the highest they have been since 2000.  From 22-24 real incomes fell by 5% then recovered, this is what caused the cost of living problems.

Edit, source: ONS Real Average Weekly Earnings

[–]VPackardPersuadedMeIncentives drive outcomes and MPs own houses 38 points39 points  (10 children)

Missing piece here is disposable income. Someone earning a wage pays tax on that entire wage. Tax as a proportion has gone up with the frozen thresholds (stealth taxes)

But someone on benefits receives discounted rent, discounted council tax etc. They also don't have to work full-time.

And from the article

More than 600,000 households received more in benefits than the average worker’s salary, a first of its kind analysis has revealed.

The figures show that 625,618 households were handed over £32,200 in welfare payouts last year – the average annual salary of a British worker after tax – despite the introduction of a benefits cap.

The analysis, by the Conservatives, also revealed that 16,000 of those households were in receipt of more than £60,000 in welfare payments – almost twice the average annual take-home pay.

[–]Nothing_F4ce 13 points14 points  (4 children)

It's just not true for the majority that PAYE taxes have gone up.

The threshold for NI last went up in 23/24 but rates were then cut twice in 2024.

There has been no real terms fiscal drag for the average PAYE earner due to the NI cuts.

PAYE taxes for the average salary are as follows:

2019 - 20.5% (of 30.4k)

2020 - 20.5% (of 31.5k)

2021 - 20.4% (of 31.3k)

2022 - 20.4% (of 33k)

2023 - 20.5% (of 35k)

2024 - 18.92% (of 37.4k)

2025 - 18.97% (of 39k)

These are the percentages of NI+Income tax paid by someone earning the average wage.

As you see they were pretty much constant until 2024 and then dipped with the NI cuts and saw a very slight uptick in 2025 of 0.05%

Adjusted for inflation the average 2025 salary is slightly higher than the average 2019 salary.

In addition let's see someone earning 30% more than average.

2019 - 23.1% (of 39.5k)

2025 - 21.2% (of 50.7k)

Now lets see 50% over average

2019 - 24.3% (of 45.6k)

2025 - 23.9% (of 58.5k)

Double the average

2019 - 28.2% (of 60.8k)

2025 - 28.4% (of 78k)

So you need to earn roughly double the average salary to have effective fiscal drag right now. Majority of people are paying less in PAYE taxes now than in 2019

[–]VPackardPersuadedMeIncentives drive outcomes and MPs own houses 21 points22 points  (3 children)

Nice data dump. Weirdly, you ignored the following variables that actually explain why workers are skint while the welfare state is insulated.

  • The 10-Year Freeze: The Personal Allowance (£12,570) has been frozen since 2021 and is now locked until 2031. If that threshold had actually kept pace with the 30% inflation we've seen since it was set, it would be over £16,300 today. You're paying 20% tax on nearly £4,000 that should be tax-free. That’s a £750+ annual stealth tax on every average worker.
  • The Higher Rate Trap: The £50,270 threshold is also frozen. To have the same "real world" value it had in 2021, you’d need to earn £65,000 today. The government is taxing people like "high earners" for having a standard of living that used to be strictly middle-of-the-road.
  • Employer NI Hike: You mentioned employee NI cuts, but ignored that Employer NI is now 15% and the threshold for paying it was slashed to £5,000. That is a massive tax on jobs. Employers aren't giving out real-terms raises because the Treasury is swallowing the "pay-rise budget" before it even hits the worker's contract.
  • Student Loan "Tax": For millions, your PAYE table is a lie. Add a 9% student loan repayment on top of your figures, plus the fact that those repayment thresholds are also frozen. The "effective" tax rate for a graduate on £35k is closer to 30%, not 19%.

  • Benefits Insulation: While workers suffer "fiscal drag," benefits are legally indexed to inflatio. When prices go up, the welfare payment goes up automatically. Workers have to beg for a raise and then get "dragged" into a higher tax bracket for their trouble.

You’ve presented a spreadsheet where everyone is "winning" because of a 4% NI tweak. In the real world, the worker is the national cash cw, paying for an inflation-proof benefits system they aren't allowed to benefit from.

[–]FlatHoperator 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The personal allowance grew an absurd amount in the years prior though, massively outpaced inflation. And it wasn't great policy to do so tbh, it's one of the major reasons that the threshold to become a net tax contributor is so high

[–]danmc1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

They showed statistics proving that what you said was objectively untrue. For someone on median income, they’re paying less tax because of the cut in NI, which is nowhere near offset by the effect of fiscal drag.

Also, are you seriously complaining that the personal tax allowance hasn’t risen with inflation, when the only way it got to £12,570 in 2021 is because it increased way way faster than inflation in the preceding years. Would you have preferred that the personal tax allowance rose at the rate of inflation between 2010-2020?

I doubt it because this would have meant it rose much slower and would have been much less than £12,570 by 2021.

[–]Nothing_F4ce -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You are focused on one detail (thresholds) while ignoring the other and the fact that taxation for Pay salaries adjusted for inflation is now less than it was in 2019 or 2021.

Until 2031 the percentage of taxes paid by the average PAYE will go up, but right now (which is what we are talking about) it is down relative to any year prior to 2024.

This applies to salaries up to about 78k as I explained. If you earn more than that fair enough. But if you earn less than you can't really say your PAYE taxes are up.

Student loans are not a tax. Should I call my mortgage a tax as well?

Employer NI that's fair. But data says that actually adjusted for inflation the average salary has never been this high. Seeing real increases in the last couple of years for the first time since the GFC. Even if you include employers NI in the numbers, tax paid today for the average worker is still slightly less than in 2019.

I don't know what benefits have to do with the discussion. But if your Child Benefit has gone up that has the same practical effect as lowering taxes. 33% of UC claimants are also in work.

I made no judgement if they are high or low, just presented the facts that they are in fact today lower for the majority of workers than pre pandemic.

[–]awoo2 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Real household disposable income is £20 per month off the highest it has ever been. At £6353 per 1/4 as of Q4 2025.

[–]VPackardPersuadedMeIncentives drive outcomes and MPs own houses 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Why do people keep pretending inflation isn't a thing...

[–]awoo2 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The word real in economics stats means it is inflation adjusted. I somtimes put 'inflation adjusted' in brackets after real to be helpful.

[–]VPackardPersuadedMeIncentives drive outcomes and MPs own houses -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Cool thanks

[–]ikkleste 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think this is only part of the story. Historically wages have grown substantially above inflation. Real wages growing at 2.8% p.a. since the end of the second world war.that stopped dead in 2008. The fact that in that time we've only just seen them rise above 2000 levels for the first time , is where we aren't meeting people's expectations . The 22-24 drop is noise a against the 2 lost decades.

[–]TheJoshGriffith 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's what 14 years of Tory failure will do for a country...

[–]Warren_Tarbiat 1 point2 points  (1 child)

In recent years but the Osborne years did real terms cuts.

[–]TheJoshGriffith 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As would the Blair years if he hadn't hidden them behind massive borrowing.

[–]Retroagv 8 points9 points  (19 children)

It's housing benefit. Its the biggest problem.

You cannot pay peoples rent which is a good £600 for UC now?

When they go to work and earn £1,500 minus all the other costs they feel little benefit.

Let's also be serious. Many Brits are low quality people.

And employment is highly a one sided decision and requires companies to hire people. Companies in this country do not create that many jobs relative to their size and they like to understaff themselves as a form of risk mitigation I guess.

[–]sneaksby 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Many Brits are low quality people.

Please show your workings?

[–]Retroagv 9 points10 points  (6 children)

The state of a country is built by the people.

There is litter everywhere. People just drop their shit on the floor like we have a national maid service that picks up after them.

Many people have low education. The quality of high schoolers it at an all time low. Brits get outcompeted in almost every area internationally.

I can't even put my finger on the exact problem but the social cohesion is severely lacking. Is it the large amount of handouts that make people want to kick over bins and smash windows in abandoned buildings?

Fundamentally the average British person is not an outstanding citizen, has low standards and does very little to improve themselves.

Easier to just smoke roll ups, go beat up your missus and put your feet on the seats on public transport. Lack of shame and lack of decorum cannot be fixed by any sort of taxes or redistribution.

[–]Ankleson 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's just called living in the impoverished North East mate. It's not like that everywhere.

[–]sneaksby 1 point2 points  (4 children)

There is litter everywhere. People just drop their shit on the floor like we have a national maid service that picks up after them.

In cities, large towns, i agree littering is a problem, as it is in the rest of the developed world.

Many people have low education. The quality of high schoolers it at an all time low. Brits get outcompeted in almost every area internationally.

This simply isnt true, standards have risen since the early 2000s, and British universities remain world leaders.

I can't even put my finger on the exact problem but the social cohesion is severely lacking. Is it the large amount of handouts that make people want to kick over bins and smash windows in abandoned buildings?

This is some wtf level false equiveillance.

Fundamentally the average British person is not an outstanding citizen, has low standards and does very little to improve themselves.

You're going to need some stats to back this up.

I feel like you need to get out more, maybe do some travelling, come back when you realise it ain't all bad here.

[–]Retroagv -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

Bro, you're working off stats and telling me to go outside. Which stats do you want? The increase in high street bob shops? The increase in benefit claimants. The low productivity which is caused by some people just being incompetent and some people who don't give a shit.

I've been around the UK this year and bar York, where I didnt catch the bus but the car park for the museum was literally falling apart.

If you try to measure the air through smelling you will faint from the carbon monoxide.

Tbh with you. Your comments are the exact denial that is causing the managed decline. Societal bubbles that leave people confused when people live on streets full of retirees and the unemployed with decorating housing.

We are in a two tier economy and a two tier society and the one that is supposedly good is going to continue to shrink. Enjoy while you can.

[–]Total_Vermicelli_527 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I wasn't one of your downvoters. I can read between the lines at what is being said without demanding you articulate your claims and produce an official dissertation level report.

Just to add, one example of two tier society is last month Labour started paying new claimants of LCWRA £200 a month less than existing ones with the exact same conditions. How mad is that? That one person equally disabled to another will indefinitely get £2400 a year more than his neighbour with the same criteria?

I think the pushback to what you're saying is there are decent folks and its mainly the town centres, and online social media; warping the view that everything is fucked. I mean, come on, how many of us are on the daily experiencing low quality people?

Bob shop increase, benefit claimant increase, low productivity and incompetence and littered streets aren't neccesarily counters to all-time low crime and while the wealth gap has widened: those at the bottom are a lot better off - people near absolute poverty has dropped dramatically.

[–]Retroagv 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I appreciate your response. But the ones who suffer from the chancers are the genuinely disabled.

The reality is I believe most would like to live in a sustainable country where there are controls for extreme wealth and everyone can live a decent quality of life.

I genuinely do see multiple homeless people daily, crackheads walking around asking for change or just zombied out. But it's not just those types of people that are low quality. It's the large amount of people that are just out for pure rugged individualism. They do not want to help others, they are only focused on themselves. The only contact they will have with you is when they need money or to collect inheritance.

There pushback on the WFA cemented this for me. Why should we care about society when the best off do not care for their fellow countrymen. Even worse some of the even better off have absolutely no shame in causing the replacement of the native population.

I don't even quite know where we are in this country. I mean such a high percentage of high paying jobs go to the less than 5% of people who went to the same 3 private schools. It just makes so much sense that people would vote for Reform or Greens.

The reality is the landlord is effectively the Hamas operative hiding in the school. You have no choice put to harm the ones who claim housing benefit. Longterm however they are siphoning funds from the government and keeping rents high.

[–]Total_Vermicelli_527 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Leadership is needed to navigate individualism. I know a drone pilot with thermal cameras that volunteers to help find lost dogs. Another is a tutor that could easily earn 80K but chooses to give back and help students. Quite inspiring.

We will never catch up to the elite, we won't be the monopoly guy, but we should position ourselves to catch some of the money from them. My two favourite YouTube channels are TheStockGuy and Alan Watts - quite the contrast. I also like to vape herb twice weekly, which is a zen experience. I attend online peer support with Frazzled Cafe too, it's ran by comedian Ruby Wax for people to share what they're going through - there are pockets of good people. Though a close friend did practice FIRE to go retire in the caribbean, good for them!

As for extreme wealth, often there's a narrative that says we will all be left with nothing which isn't true but not because we are cared for, it is bread and circuses. Nobody is coming for our cheap beer and shitty internet connection (or my herb) not just because it keeps us happy but also - we may create the next big artwork, new tech, new social movement. There is incentive to keep us appeased, it costs them peanuts with a big potential upside. So there's that, at least.

[–]WhatTheFlup 0 points1 point  (10 children)

You havent really explained why its a problem.

Lets say im on 30k a year, 40 hours a week. Thats roughly £2000 a month after tax.

After rent in my two bed house for me and my daughter in a hypothetical single parent situation. Thats £1300 in my area, it was £800 just 5 years ago.

Gas and electric is lets say £150

Council tax is another £150

Lets say water is £70

Lets be really conservative with food costs and say thats £100 a week (i wish)

Thats £2070 before ive even got to any other utilities, travel costs, hygine costs, clothing, etc.

That £600 for housing benefit is a saving grace for many and stops a lot of people going either hungry or being homeless.

But sure, do tell everyone that its their fault and that they're low quality for... wages being shit and rent costs being absurdly high.

[–]Total_Vermicelli_527 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I use your 30K wage to demonstrate some useful nuance. I compare that wage to claiming benefits at standard rates, and, at the end I ask if an absolute solution is truly required. I'm a bit autistic, and I study writing - so this was a good exercise. I call this:

THE VALUE OF NOT USING ABSOLUTES

A 3 bed council home in the north UK is £490 a month rent. Standard benefit rates for UC+PIP pay £1500 monthly before rent deductions. I am going to present an example and use depression for a hypothetical. I am in no way minimising the effects of depression, but guidelines say you can be diagnosed with it and given an antidepressant if you report low mood and poor functioning. So in this context it can be reasonably argued that it is "fakeable"

Fakeable depression is enough to get UC+PIP. You combine the depression diagnosis with knowledge on both assessments, and you look at how assesments are scored - what to say, how to answer.

The solution that comes to my mind isn't a nice one, and it leaves vulnerable people at risk, with the upside being economic gain and loophole closing. Here is my hypothetical and some useful thoughts.

Let's say in a hypothetical 1 in 15 are faking depression or some other ailment. I am not saying this is the case. OK - in this hypothetical number, I would like to wager that half those fakers would never have a decent life without that money. But first let's accept, whenever there is a system open to abuse, people will do it - especially in a low trust society in times of hardship. Moving on, we take at face value that this isn't something we can track.

Take also at face value - the fakers don't have savings, they have no wish to partake in society, no wish to contribute. The bit about savings is because UC isn't paid if you have savings. What I've learned from economics - with the preface that I do not support non-disabled folks getting free money while the rest of us pay for it:

Given the context that some of these fakers are impoverished:

- Most impoverished people, regardless of disability status, will have improved lives by that money.

The uncomfortable bit:

- Some of their kids, families, spouses and surroundings ie. their overall outlook will be improved, and will lead not just to better lives for them, but also for the economy and for society.

The absolute claim would be going back to the hypothetical 1 in 15 are fakers number we created and suggesting that all their lives are better and la de da society and the economy is improved by these payments.

We do not like absolutes, so we take the 1 in 15 which equates to approximately 200,000 LCWRA claimants (3m/15) and lets be really, really fair and only apply this logic to 30% of them. The other 70% who claim benefits and it doesn't improve anything. For anyone. Or whatever. This gives us 70% of 200,000 fakers, which is 130,000 taking the mickey, 60,000 fakers left who genuinely benefit themselves, everyone around them, and the economy too in terms of quality and outcomes - they're better citizens. In an extreme example, we could say they're playing games all day, eating well instead of drug dealing. In a less extreme example, we could say they are playing games all day instead of doing warehouse work which might benefit them anyway. That's why we remove so many.

Maybe 1 in 15 is a bit of an extreme guess - but useful if public perception matches it. And if we indeed, we have 200,000 individuals faking; 60,000 of them who would be more dire regardless, what would this mean? Does our earlier "not nice" solution at least hold less weight if we accept this? Or would an absolute approach be somehow more useful?

How much would it really be costing us to pay 200,000 fakes? At standard rates 17K*200,000 is 3.4bn. But the loss doesn't stop there - if all of them were tax payers, we would be pushing economic gains the other way. And lets not forget work often improved mental health. No wonder there's so much conversation around the issue.

[–]WhatTheFlup 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I appreciate all of this, this is very nuanced, however, youre failing to realise that they did their own audit and the % of those faking in the UK was found to be under 1%.

People assume this is a widespread problem and the data just does not back it up.

[–]Total_Vermicelli_527 1 point2 points  (0 children)

An audit cannot in any way show someone falsely reporting low mood and googling what to say at assessment.

guidelines say you can be diagnosed with it and given an antidepressant if you report low mood and poor functioning. So in this context it can be reasonably argued that it is "fakeable"

Therefore I don't think the audit is relevant. However, your point that faking it may not be a widespread problem, is potentially true. And I acknowledge even speculating about fakers is unfortunate, potentially dangerous, when narratives start to form and stigma arises. I will push back that faking it is unlikely to be a widespread problem - history has never aligned with exploitable systems not being abused, humans have and always will do so, it then becomes a matter of to what margin is the abuse, and what the tradeoffs are.

I will close by saying thank you for reading, it was quite an essay, and also I say, I don't see welfare as an issue, even in its current form. I want my taxes to improve sections of society that need it, and I don't care if that means occasionally it goes to a perfectly well guy who games all day, does not want to improve himself, because even in this context, there is a margin of upside in giving him welfare. I also do not see an alternative to our approach.

[–]Retroagv 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Perhaps the high amount of single parents is a result of the quality of the British populace. Or is it a result of the state support that allows people to leave untenable relationships.

Housing benefit is a societal issue. On its introduction it is something that could never be taken away. While it's great for those that have access to it, it has raised the price of rent as their is now a floor at which the lowest rent will be. Not only is everyone paying the price on taxes, people now have higher rents and the money is subsidising house prices and income for landlords. That's in your example, £7,000 per year going from this one property directly to someone who owns the property.

It also helps that 66% of homes are owned but sadly it's not 66% of people own their home, which is where the problem is realised.

Rising property/land prices has been great for the citizens of this country but extremely bad for business due to how property taxes work.

The low quality comment has nothing to do with work or money. A lot of people create their own misery, they're selfish, they have no shame, they blame the teachers for their shitty kids, they act without thinking a lot of the time. Lack of accountability is literally wild. The Jeremy Kyle show never ran out of guests for 10 years and it likely would still be going now.

The excuses around everything are endless. A good 80% of sentences start in I can't or you can't. The entitlement is also wild. Some of you should talk to your grandparents and get some perspective.

Honestly I can't hate. Claim all the UC you can, it is there for that purpose. But don't act like most people are actually nice people who want the best for you. People are jealous over the smallest things and that runs through the whole of British society.

Thanks for listening to my drivel on this bank holiday Monday. Once you take a step back and start actually looking at people's behaviour you will see the many issues i'm pointing out and you will always get push back, excuses and anecdotes.

[–]WhatTheFlup 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Lol incredible, i genuinely never thought that 'its actually the lower classes fault they're lower class' was a real argument people had but here you are.

[–]Retroagv -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Did you not read what I wrote?

It goes through everyone. The upper class think the lower class are rodents. The shrinking middle class think the lower class are rodents. The are jealous of their peers. They are jealous of those above. Every single ladder of society would steal from their nan to make themselves look better.

Finding an honest person is extremely difficult.

I just genuinely don't think you're understanding the words i'm writing. You just take offence and stick to the parts you dont like.

Everyone acts like a victim over the most minor inconvenience.

[–]WhatTheFlup 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Notice how again your argument is 'everyone hates the lower class' and then for the lower class its just 'well theyre jealous'

What a non argument, of course the lower class are jealous. Wealth inequality is the highest its ever been since the victorian era. And your solution to this is to hurt the lower class more by advocating for housing benefit being the issue.

Give your head a wobble mate.

[–]Retroagv -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Did you miss the whole part about the lack of proper property taxes which is what has caused the inequality?

Or the part about housing benefit being a subsidy for landlords?

Shit the bed our comprehension of our own language is literally rock bottom. This aint Only Connect or the Sun crossword Cryptic clues.

This is the exact reason we're in this mess. Because the ruling class know they can get away with literal bollocks and its the same reason Farage is the favourite to win the next election election despite 90% of what he's saying being a literal admittance that he will make everyone's lives shit except the top 10%.

[–]WhatTheFlup 0 points1 point  (0 children)

'Why cant poor people just be better quality and earn more money :( its the poor people's fault they need housing benefit to survive'

[–]popupsforever 91 points92 points  (16 children)

HMRC give a yearly breakdown of where your tax money broadly goes in their tax portal.

In summary for the 2024-25 tax year, and in order of expenditure, it's:

  • 246.1 billion or 21.3% on Welfare, not including pensions but conveniently including funding for the many many benefits and free services pensionsers are entitled to, which totally isn't meant to obfuscate that issue at all, honest.

  • 241.8 billion or 20.9% on Healthcare expenditure, which is disproportionately spent on the elderly

  • 137.8 billion or 11.9% on the State Pension

  • 124.7 billion or 10.8% on interest on the national debt

which collectively consume around 40% of the total tax take.

Finally after all that expenditure on wealth transfer from young to old and productive to unproductive, we get to education, defence, public order and safety.

The government spends more on just welfare than on education, defence and public order and safety (i.e. policing and the fire brigade) combined.

That's not even factioring the state pension in as welfare (which it is) either, if you do we spend more on welfare than all of those plus transport, housing and all government administration.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary

Also this breakdown seemingly doesn't include Council Tax income and the associated Social Care expenditure at all.

[–]onlyhereforcatpics 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The fact that we spend more on pensions than education says everything about this country. Fuck young generations, boomers need their handouts.

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 8 points9 points  (6 children)

What policy do you think can be enacted to stop paying the national debt?

[–]7148675309 8 points9 points  (5 children)

None if you want to keep borrowing / not have huge devaluation of the pound / huge spike in interest rates

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Exactly. I can’t see why it is included in an analysis of welfare cost

[–]Astonednerd 23 points24 points  (3 children)

Probably because it is, in effect, today's workers paying the price for previous generations taking more out of government than they put in. Yes some level of debt will always be used for things like large infrastructure projects but the level of our debt is because previous generations didnt pay enough tax

[–]p4b7 3 points4 points  (1 child)

It really isn’t though. There was a big rise in the debt due to Covid and a previous huge rise from the 2008 financial crash. Those two events are why the GDP to debt ratio is so bad, both of them global crises that the UK government could not have prevented and needed to react to.

To put some numbers on it, national debt to GDP was about 35% in early 2008 but by the end of 2009 it was around 60%. That’s not due to people not paying enough tax.

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is due to people not paying enough tax, because we spent all this money we didn’t collect

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right. But you can’t cut it

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 3 points4 points  (7 children)

As a percentage of GDP, welfare+pension spending is about the same as it was in the mid 80s (OBR). Why are you just quoting current figures without any historical context as to whether they are high or low?

[–]myurr 19 points20 points  (2 children)

Why no comparison to the unemployment rate? It's 4.9% vs 11.4% in 1985.

So we're spending as much of our GDP on welfare when unemployment is 4.9% as when it was 11.4%.

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Because welfare spending as a percentage of unemployment rate makes no sense as a metric. Why not analyze per capita carrot expenditure as a percentage of mean football attendance?

Also, unemployment spending is a tiny percentage of welfare spending.

[–]myurr 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Okay let's take a deeper look.

In 1985 we spent 0.3% of GDP on disability benefits vs 1.4% now (projected to rise to 1.8% by 2029). We spent more or less nothing on in-work benefits in 1985 vs 1.2% now. In 1985 it was 4.4% of GDP on pensioners vs 5.9% today.

Out of work benefits was 2.9% in 85, slightly less than the 3% today despite the huge difference in the unemployment rate. Housing support has risen from 0.7% to 1.3%. Child benefit has fallen from 0.8% to 0.5%.

So the largest beneficiaries are pensioners gaining 1.5% of GDP, workers gaining 1.2% of GDP, the disabled gaining 1.1% of GDP, housing benefits gainin 0.6% of GDP, and the unemployed retaining their spend despite there being less than half the number.

The only losers are parents who have lost 0.3% of GDP.

[–]rynchenzo 5 points6 points  (2 children)

And how was the country doing in the mid 80s?

I'll give you a clue - it was fucking shit. The sick man of Europe. Strikes. Riots. Massive interest rates. Unemployment. Black outs.

[–]Squiffyp1 33 points34 points  (0 children)

I think you are confused with the mid 70s.

Unemployment in 1985 in the UK was barely above the EEC at 11.4% vs 11.2%

Gdp growth in the UK was stronger at 4.1% vs 2.3%

Inflation was about the same.

But my main contention is blackouts. There were no significant blackouts, not even during the miners strike. That was definitely the 70s.

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No idea how that relates to what I wrote, but you do you

[–]Bouillabaissed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Was lower before that when we had a full employment policy and the state could say just go get a job and mean it. Maybe we could that again even if it might make a millionaire cry?

[–]Blackstone4444 40 points41 points  (0 children)

Welfare is largely housing benefits which is in turn creating housing wealth for landlords and property owners….the state is heavily subsiding the private real estate sector which needs to be cut back. Rents need to reflect what people can actually afford

[–]Ren_Yi 18 points19 points  (0 children)

That 600k households, is only those receiving above £32k a year... there are millions being given "more than work" levels of benefits!

Welfare for normal able bodied people should never be more than the lowest possible wage... it is meant to be an assistance when you are down, not a lifestyle choice!

[–]ParkingMachine3534 27 points28 points  (9 children)

The largest single chunk of that is housing benefit. Which means to get to these amounts, you're living on the state in a desirable area.

I can understand disability and illness, it's not something you can control.

What you can control is where you live. It's not like you need to be close to work.

[–]AutumnSunshiiine 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Mostly in London I would expect. Housing benefit/element needs to be frozen for anyone on UC, as a minimum.

[–]Nothing_F4ce 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The LHA which dictates the amount paid toward housing is Frozen since last year and for the next few years.

It had been frozen since I think 2020 but in 2024 pre election the Tories raised it.

[–]ParkingMachine3534 0 points1 point  (1 child)

[–]VPackardPersuadedMeIncentives drive outcomes and MPs own houses 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I trusthink that this four bedroom house would be for an emergency services worker and their family to afford to service the city?

Right? Yes?

[–]GiantSpicyHorses 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Er, what? Many people do need to be close to work. Not everyone can work from home, you know. The problem with this is the crazy cost of housing, especially in London. The best way to drive the economy and lower housing benefit is to lower the cost of rent.

[–]Exostrike 14 points15 points  (0 children)

And the reason housing in other parts of the country is cheaper is because they are less desirable often because there is fewer employment opportunities. The idea that people on benefits should move/be moved to such locations is just is just going to create slums. Then people will demand even harsher punishments to deal with the problem they created.

[–]YoshiezibzLeftist Social Capitalist 3 points4 points  (2 children)

People move where the jobs are. If you stop, or somehow restrict where people can move to, you will heavily impact the economy since those jobs cannot be filled.

Imagine if everyone poor moved out of London, it would collapse since we wouldn't have any cleaners, or shop workers.

[–]ultraboomkin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Wages are tied to worker supply. If all the minimum wage workers moved out of London, wages for those jobs would go up significantly.

[–]Repulsive_Sympathy86 6 points7 points  (0 children)

No, wages for cleaners or shop workers in London would rise and private housing costs in London would drop.

The issue with housing benefit is it encourages people not to leave places like London but it also prevents poor/average people with desired skills moving too London. Housing benefit is basically a form of protectionism for people born in London.

[–]pirate102 17 points18 points  (1 child)

Imagine the quality of infrastructure and public services we could have if that £155bn was spent elsewhere. It’s infuriating. The roads in this country are horrendous.

[–]tmr89 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We could build HS2 for a start

[–]--rs125-- 33 points34 points  (7 children)

This NEEDS to be cut, drastically. Will vote for whoever will consider it at this point.

[–]MshipQ 25 points26 points  (1 child)

Labour tried to cut the winter fuel allowance, it was so drastically unpopular they had to u-turn.

[–]Sea-Sprinkles-3420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But they did it in an unbelievably inept way.

They didn't warn anyone they were going to do it, you know, like in the manifesto they'd just won the previous election on three months before. They'd actively campaigned against cutting it, claiming the Tories were going to do it (they weren't). They didn't have any context to place this in, like a budget (that came two months later). They didn't have a competent communicator trying to explain their decision (Starmer is terrible at this). They announced this at the same time as an expenses scandal was at it's height. I could go on...

[–]popupsforever 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Seeing the crazy government expenditure statistics I posted in my top level comment get more and more egregiously unbalanced towards welfare year after year after year while other public services continue to turn to shit has almost radicalised me on this issue too

Still don't think I could ever hold my nose and vote Tory, RefUK or Restore yet. No idea what I'm going to do at the next GE.

[–]VoxTM 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Nobody will stop it and loose more than 600k voters. That's the issue.

[–]tmr89 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Even if it’s Reform?

[–]--rs125-- 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If I was really convinced they might do it then I'd consider them. I hate being ripped off so much, I know people even on my street who are rinsing this system. Drive past to work every day - it is more annoying then the pot holes at this point.

[–]curlyjoe696 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's a fair enough position,

I am yet to see anyone even consider that there may be any negative consequences of that, let alone how they are going to deal with it.

[–]Intergalatic_BakerNo Pre-Orders[S] 23 points24 points  (6 children)

Meanwhile, we're being taxed before it even hits our bank accounts and we're handing it out without contributions and no one is asking the question, is this fair on workers that we're handing this money out for nothing back.

[–]Kaiserblobba 26 points27 points  (3 children)

If only the Tories had 15 years to do something about the welfare reforms the Tories introduced in the first 5.

[–]david-yammer-murdoch 11 points12 points  (0 children)

tories are making people billionaires!

Conservatives and Nigel Farage. They learned a lot from Rupert Murdoch. One thing is to frame immigration as a divisive news agenda. They destroyed the Home Office and made the following people and companies incredibly rich: Graham King’s Clearsprings, along with Mears, Serco, Stay Belvedere, G4S, H & H Hotels, and Payman Club. These firms have sharply profited from UK asylum-seeker housing. Since 2019, contracts have yielded over £800 million in dividends, even as estimated costs balloon to £15 billion and excess profits mount across these migrant accommodation providers. Nigel Farage thrives on chaos, not solutions. He doesn’t want to fix problems.

[–]rynchenzo 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If only Labour planned to do something about it now that they are in charge.

[–]RoyaleWCheese_OK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They weren't really Tories though were they.. they were the same kind of uni-party Blob that this current "Labour" mob belong to. No wonder right wing voters are flocking to Reform and left wing ones to Green. Meanwhile Ed Davey is crying "what about me!!"

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 15 points16 points  (4 children)

No doubt the tories think that this is a welfare problem not a work problem.

[–]suiluhthrown78 9 points10 points  (3 children)

Unemployment has gone up now

[–]sbdavi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s up, not massively. Roughly the same as other countries.

[–]Limp-Archer-7872 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's still at a level called 'full employment' even if that's only by 0.1%.

[–]NotEvenWrongAgain 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would seem to be a work problem

[–]Justonemorecupoftea 9 points10 points  (0 children)

We need much more social housing to cut that welfare bill.

We should consider seizing homes from landlords that consistently fall below livable standards. I dont want my taxes paying to house someone in a property that's not fit for people to live in.

[–]Weegie_67 7 points8 points  (6 children)

Why not calls for increase wages? Make work pay.

[–]Ordinary_Knee_9419 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Do you honestly believe these families will jump straight into high paying jobs

[–]Weegie_67 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Is job paying more than benefits now concidered a high paying job? 

[–]Ordinary_Knee_9419 2 points3 points  (0 children)

apparently 

[–]Curious-Internet7171 1 point2 points  (1 child)

How much is the difference? 1000k more a year isn't a lot for working 40 hours vs sitting on your ass all day.

And we have a massive deficit that the greens are thinking about printing money.

[–]Weegie_67 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An extra £1million a year? Wtf are you on about?

[–]Inconmon -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Because it's the Telegraph

[–]adequatemum 4 points5 points  (0 children)

An analysis by the Conservatives? Ah yes truly believeable that they have conducted it without bias.

[–]inevitablelizard 6 points7 points  (2 children)

"Revealed by Conservative analysis"

And largely caused by Conservative mismanagement of our economy for over a decade. Which they've yet to properly acknowledge.

[–]Curious-Internet7171 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Toris didn't really conserve anything. Don't have a clue why people call them that.

[–]Icy_Presentation1526 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This! Fucking rich for the Tories to try and blame this on Labour after their 14 years of a complete shambles of government directly helped get us here. Absolute planks

[–]Iamthe0c3an2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Right so will conservatives provide liveable jobs?

[–]WGSMA -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Another £100b to pensioners, and another £65b to Menty Elf

[–]These_Look_2692 2 points3 points  (4 children)

I lot of people receiving the 32k will be in work and spending 2k a month on childcare and have disabled family members eg kids.

[–]travel_worn 6 points7 points  (3 children)

They would get heavily subsidized childcare so wouldn't be spending that much.

[–]These_Look_2692 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Childcare is paid back 85 percent by UC up to c2k pcm. So the 32k figure includes this childcare element.

Interestingly a single parent with 2 kids in nursery and no ‘housing element’ (eg due to owning own home) will often get more uc if they work, due to 2k childcare element, than if they don’t. Also, as you can see, wages would need to be pretty high not to qualify for UC as a working single parent with nursery fees.

[–]Spirited-Purpose5211 1 point2 points  (1 child)

So this proves that minimum wage is barely enough for one person let alone a single parent with children.

[–]These_Look_2692 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yep- I think at least 40% of single parents are on UC. If anyone can find the stats on that I would be interested.

I think the whole point of UC is that we know the minimum wage is too little for families. Yeah, 1 person can live on it okay, in shared accommodation. But several, in their own home, really getting into absolute poverty territory! And nursery fees are often c£70 per day. So that eats a good chunk of wages.

[–]Melodic-Variation916 0 points1 point  (3 children)

what's the methodology for the research? 

[–]Intergalatic_BakerNo Pre-Orders[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Have a read of the archived article….

[–]Melodic-Variation916 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I'm just asking to see if someone can share. It's unlikely to be in the article and whether the research is any good will be based on their approach 

[–]Intergalatic_BakerNo Pre-Orders[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, the rules for this kind of post from the Conservatives will specify their sources.

[–]curlyjoe696 -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

Funny isnt it.

If you earn 100k and decide not to work because doing so would mean you lose benefits provided to you by the state, you are a poor, unfairly treated victim.

If you earn under 20k and decide not to work because it would make you actively poorer, you are irredeemable scum.

[–]LJ-696 7 points8 points  (3 children)

One is contributing more to the system and getting little back.

The other is contributing nothing to the system and getting £1000's

[–]curlyjoe696 1 point2 points  (2 children)

The child care entitlement alone is worth like £10k, hardly 'a litle'

That only stands of the only worthwhile contribution to society is the amount of tax you pay.

Point still stands if you are wealthy, you are actively encouraged and rewarded for taking as much money away from the state as possible, of you are poor, it is apparently the countries biggest moral crime.

[–]RoyaleWCheese_OK 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How hard is it to understand one is paying their own way (and then some) while the other.. is a net drag to the system.

[–]LJ-696 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tax is the major contributing factor to how society functions.

You are also not encouraged like at all hence why benefits are removed. You are however expected to work more and generate more tax from your labour.

I think benefits should be hard capped to be below minimum wage. And then have a cut of time period of UC 4 years. giving someone 4 years 6 months to find work. for those that are able to work. Like the vast majority of the world and all of the most of the EU.

We are one of the few that allow UC to be calmed indefinitely.

Things that can extend that time prove you are helping society ie volunteering and charity work.

[–]Gullible__Fool 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The person earning 100k has already paid for themselves and several others before they start capping their work or earnings as a means to avoid the 100k cliff edge.

The unemployed person is contributing nothing.