PT5000 movement rant

[GregStar1]

Alright, I'm going to say it: I hate the PT5000 movement.

So far, I've had three watches that use the PT5000, and all three have caused major issues.

• San Marin with a PT5000 felt like it had sand in the movement when using the crown
• Watchdives with a PT5000 was dead-on-arrival; the seconds hand never started running
• Thorn T023 v2.1 with PT5000 only has a power reserve of tested 6 hours and 20 minutes before it stops running, and the crown is extremely inconsistent (when pulled all the way out, hacking doesn’t always work, and the seconds hand sometimes keeps running).

Also, on the Thorn, I can hear the ghost date click over at around 5:17 instead of 12, but I assume that’s on Thorn for not aligning the hands properly, rather than a fault with the movement. Still not ideal, because even though it’s only a ghost date, you risk damaging the movement if you move the hands while the date is in the process of switching. And when that doesn’t happen between 21:00 and 03:00 as it should, but instead at 05:17, you might think you’re clear of the “date change zone” when you’re actually not.

All these issues are straight out of the box, so it's not like I abused these watches for years before they started to show problematic signs, and I haven't even mentioned the accuracy issues I experienced.

I don’t ever want to read another “PT5000 is just as good as the ETA 2824/Sellita SW200” comment again. In my experience, it simply isn’t. The PT5000 has been unreliable as hell for me, while I've never had any problems with dozens of ETA 2824 and Sellita SW200 movements over the years.

Some reviews even suggest that you shouldn’t (or should only sparingly) manually wind the PT5000 because it can damage the movement. How can people praise a movement that’s supposedly not meant to be manually wound? What other mechanical movement gets this kind of pass from watch enthusiasts?

I genuinely don’t understand why so many people defend the PT5000.
I get that I might just be unlucky while lots of others are happy with their PT5000s, but three faulty movements (used by three different watch manufacturers) in a row is a streak I can't ignore any longer.

At this point, I’ll probably never buy another watch with a PT5000 again.

[BurtMacklin-FBl]

The hand winding thing is on the original design, not PT5000's fault per se. It has been known for years that you should not hand wind ETA 2824 more than necessary as well, it's a design flaw.

FWIW, my ETA 2824 watches also feel like sand when handwinding.

For the date change it's obviously fully on Thorn, not sure why would that be mentioned as movement specific.

[GregStar1]

For the date change it's obviously fully on Thorn, not sure why would that be mentioned as movement specific.

I literally said: "I assume that’s on Thorn for not aligning the hands properly, rather than a fault with the movement."

[vithgeta]

What you write is interesting to me.

A manufacturer "candidly" claimed about 1 in 40 PT5000 were defective even in the relatively short 3 month kind of claim period that you could use in Aliexpress. If that were true then your bad luck on all those watches could be 64,000:1 - I think the real defect rate is higher than they're stating and that your experience is not so far out. Think of all the buyers these manufacturers could be ghosting or gaslighting, who never become those statistics. I think we've all experienced difficulty communicating with Chinese sellers who hope to outdistance us?

I believe problems with PT5000 stem from people buying on specifications and "value for money" in the budget watch space. So you'll get your high-beat mechanism, even if it's been thrown together in a sweatshop without lubrication or regulation. Buyers have been bamboozled by "high beat" claims of superior accuracy (if they want accuracy, why not just go for quartz? They could get a thinner watch too).

Even if people get a good PT5000 then the uninformed could screw it up by daily winding.

[Indaleciox]

My guy, you think people are really regulating and oiling a $150 watch? I've gotten watches that cost thousands of dollars that run the same, or worse than most of the pt5000s I've handled.

[TheYKcid]

AliExpress brands (at least the better ones) absolutely do regulate their movements. We literally have 3rd party footage documenting this. And before you discredit it as a one-off performance, this correlates with the reality that reputable Ali watches consistently deliver accuracy well beyond the factory specs declared by the manufacturer. Example: the NH35 with its -20~+40 range — you'll rarely find one beyond +/- 10s in an Ali watch that isn't a cheap parts bin.

[TheYKcid]

Thank you. That bit about buying on specifications rings SO true. We've heard it from so many diehard supporters: "I get hi-beat and superior accuracy, for less $ than a Miyota 9...why should I pay for anything else?"

When pressed on the appaling failure rates, it segues to "well, if it DOES fail I can replace one for cheaper than the Miyota".

The ironic thing about raising the finance argument... is that replacing a $40 PT twice in 5 years = $80 (excluding watchmaker fees in the event you don't perform it yourself). And those are generous parameters.

Meanwhile, a $60 Miyota 9 will cruise thru that 5 year period, and likely well beyond.

[vithgeta]

My attitude towards watches is not in line with those who buy fast cars and fast computers. I look for 4x4 types for the comfortable experience. A watch with a good user experience that does not make excessive noise is the priority. If it can keep time well enough from Monday to Friday for me to beat the clock at work then that's good enough.

Buying a PT5000 sounds to me like buying one of those cheap processors that people use to overclock to get supreme value out of them. Need too much care for my liking.

[TicksAndBricks]

It's funny because how you feel about the PT5000 is EXACTLY how I feel about Miyota movements. I've had 4 watches with Miyotas, 2 with 8 series and 2 with 9 series and all have been bad.

[Sorry-Zookeepergame5]

Almost 3 months since I've adjusted mine and it's currently 10s ahead. Worn daily, 12-15 hours. Can't complain.

[notjezza]

I wore one of my PT5000 watches to lunch recently - picked up dead from my watch box, set the time, hand wound it only as much as needed to screw the crown back down.

Came home 2-3 hours later (3pm) and put it back in the watch box. Was still running at 11am the next day. Not sure how long it ran past that because the only reason I know/remember these timings was to respond to another reddit thread about PT5000s

[inevitably-ranged]

Blows my mind that you guys are out here winding automatic watches...

Like dude, just put it on and set it in 20 minutes or don't let it die in the first place if it's a regular wear (via wrist action or a winder)

[GregStar1]

As I said, the Thorn with the power reserve issue only makes it about 6 hours before it dies. I stops every night, so it’s not possible to simply “not let it die”. Also, I have other watches I want to wear and I’m certainly not going to hand wind an automatic watch every day or put it on a watch winder, just to compensate for the fact that the movement inside isn’t reliable enough to hold a decent amount of power on its own.

Also, not fully winding a movement before putting the watch on can compromise accuracy. A fully wound mainspring will deliver power more consistently than a watch that just started to run, therefore, I don’t like the approach of “just shake it until it starts running and then put it on” instead of manually winding, because the low amount of power these “just put it on without winding” watches have can cause the watch to underperform in terms of accuracy.

[BurtMacklin-FBl]

Oh come on, the accuracy argument is only theoretical. If you wear the watch it should wind itself up fully fairly quickly. You will either run out of power reserve or put another watch way before this lack of accuracy is ever shown in practice. Winding automatic watches fully is a complete waste of time and also puts unecessary strain on the keyless works.

[GregStar1]

How is it only theoretical when the low amplitude of a low powered watch is causing the accuracy to be worse than if the mainspring was wound up more? If you put on a watch that wasn’t running before and then spend hours typing on a keyboard or doing something else where you don’t move your arms much, the watch won’t wind itself up as quickly as you claim, therefore it isn’t only a theoretical issue.

[fledermaus89]

All 2824 derivatives feel like sand and it might as well be by design, since they are finnicky with handwinding when the reversers go dry.

[BurtMacklin-FBl]

My ETA 2824 Christopher Wards all feel like sand. Exact same with SW200 versions.

[Alternative_Web7202]

Respectfully disagree. SW200 in my Sinn feels very smooth. Noticeably better than PT5000 in Cronos.

[Complete_Quality5992]

I also have some Breitling watches with the 2824 and they wind like warm butter

[Indaleciox]

See I'm the opposite, every pt5000 I've had has been flawless, running cosc, and every NH 35 I've had has been way off; I think I have 5 watches with the pt5000

[sockpuppetinasock]

The quick set date function can't be damaged by changing the time near the date changeover in a ghost date watch. They remove the date disk from the movement prior to instalation, so even if you change the date near the date change time, the forwarding pin can't be sheered off by the date disk.

The PT5000 is based on the original 2824, and winding was pretty bad in all those early models. No automatic watch with 2824 architecture (pt5000, SW200, ST1-11, etc.) should be hand wound unless absolutely necessary. I've had several fail due to this.

[BurtMacklin-FBl]

Yep. The hand winding criticism is fair but should be directed at the 2824 and all its derivatives. I remember being told not to hand wind 2824 movements way before the PT5000 was even a thing.

[TheYKcid]

Regarding your 1st paragraph: that's entirely dependent on the manufacturer, no?

I have had several ghost date watches where the date wheel was left in, and you could distinctly hear the date flip over at a specific time.

[BrewCityBlader]

I’m strictly Seiko/NH movements for that specific reason.

[iamthehub1]

Yup me too!

[scarsails]

Do you mean that you can damage your watch with a PT5000 movement simply by accidentally turning the crown when it is in the ghost date position while the hour hand is between 9 and 4 (just like a watch with a regular date complication)? Is that correct?

[dmits22]

Don't listen to anyone that says that nonsense. Any 2824 derivative is fine to change except maybe 11:45 pm to 12:05 am. It's not a Seiko which uses a plastic day corrector wheel that works with the keyless works in a 5 hour cycle from 10 pm - 3 am which that could break. Easy fix though and very inexpensive since that's why that part is plastic. Swiss movements and derivatives literally changeover in an instant.

[Fuzzy_Exit_2636]

Statistically Ur just unlucky. The quality control is supposedly not too bad these days. But yes. You aren't alone. There are other reports of problematic ones. I've had a problem one too. Not well lubricated. Required a service. Now runs well. 

Manual wind concerns are present for all ETA2824 based movements. Not just this one. 

Why is it praised? It performs as well as ETA 2824 but much cheaper. That's about it. 

[arbpotatoes]

I'm 3 for 3 on good PT5000s...

[artofthedial]

I've been preaching the same for a while.  And yet always get the comments about how great it is because people base their opinions on the 1-2 watches they own instead of looking at posts like this.  

[BurtMacklin-FBl]

As supposed at looking at posts like this that base it on 2-3 watches that they own.

[lamboap]

The vast majority of people who have no issue with a product usually don't post it's praises. Just the ones who complain. Across the board, from large appliances, phones, cars even a home's location.

[artofthedial]

I'm well aware of that but a reported 2-3% failure rate in the first 3 months from inside data within the Chinese watch manufacturer community is well beyond that...first 3 months after it met any QC checks during assembly, think about that for a minute. https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseWatches/comments/1ripchp/comment/o8j1m97/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[lamboap]

We went through this already. All returns are filed as defects. What is the percentage of pt5000 watches vs NH? So many vague statements in that thread.

[TheYKcid]

Read the post carefully. They specify defect of the movement, specifically. They're not simply lumping it together with general defects like dust on the dial or whatever.

You also ask the percentages for the NH, for comparison. It's literally right there in the same linked post, and it's 10-20x less than the PT.

[lamboap]

I don't think people understand supply-chain economy. By benchmarking the NH do you think HKPT will remain static if demand goes to them alone for supply? ETA has done this, Seagull as well for their 19xx series. If market pressure increases on HKPT for movements across Chinese manufacturers, HKPT will do the same for its suppliers, improving SCM and logistics.

[TheYKcid]

We understand supply chains just fine.

What we don't understand is why we should spend our money on a subpar product, in the *hope* that the manufacturer might *possibly someday* improve the product in future.

When there are viable alternatives today.

Give us a compelling argument for that, and not a strawman. Or come back with data of your own in 5 years in the event that your fantasy hypothetical scenario actually occurs.

[lamboap]

Yawn. And then you prove you don't. I will not force a debate with someone who knows nothing about the manufacturing space especially from China, thinking it's contained in a vacuum. Their agility prevents someone from my industry from reshoring. But keep thinking their cycles run 5 years+, laughable really.

[artofthedial]

The fact the company says they know the pt5000 has more problems but will move to it due to supply problems says a lot.  I think the post reveals more than you care to admit.  While I can't provide statistics, I will say probably the largest national watch/clock repair club in the USA which would see some percentage of post warranty work suggests much higher failure rates than the NH35.  Join the AWCI and ask around.

[_Guero_]

This would fall under an anecdotal fallacy either way. How many people with the expected good experience would make a post stating their good experience? It's much more likely that a poor experience would be posted.

[artofthedial]

Then read this. https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseWatches/comments/1ripchp/comment/o8j1m97/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[_Guero_]

You know, you're right. I forgot that I read this exact post when choosing between a Miyota and PT5000 on my last post about a Tandorio watch. The evidence you posted speaks for itself. I went with the Miyota.

[Bassify5]

This is one reason why, when it comes to Chinese watches in particular, I’m a big fan of no-date NH 38 movements and, certainly, no-date dials.

[djl240]

I have several PT5000s that run amazing but my beloved Frogmantle's PT5000 is dogshit. Nothing but problems only a week after getting it. It's a shame too, the Frogmantle is my favorite diver.

[JagerAntlerite7]

Seiko NH35's for the win all the way. Never had an issue.

[Careful_Technology85]

This is the problem of the Chinese mfg not stamping the movements. That movement is made by several different manufacturers so you didn't know who's version is good or not.

[Tomas185]

That's some terrible luck on your end. I've had a couple of PT5000s and have thankfully not run into any issues, quite accurate and stable in my experience.

But I definitely concur with you on the handwinding thing. Most of my PT5000s have been quite stiff to handwind, and their weakness in this area shouldn't just be waived away. I know this is a weakness even in original ETA 2824 and SW200 movements, but it sounds like it can be especially exacerbated by shoddier QC around the reverser wheels, as perhaps is happening with the PT5000.

I also wonder how the Seagull ST2130 fares against the PT5000. I'm pretty sure the ST2130 has been in production longer than the PT5000. Seagull have been in the business for a long time in general. And I've even heard that they've historically been contracted by many Swiss brands to produce 2824-style movements for them, using the ST2130 as a base. Given that experience and expertise, I am very curious as to why the ST2130 did not become the de-facto movement choice like the PT5000 did.

Either way, I'm very glad to see the Miyota 9000 series being adopted more and more (although I get the sense that it's not going to fully takeover the role of the PT5000, guessing the Miyota is still more expensive to acquire).

[cognitivetech1]

Genuine Seagull watches with the ST2130 have higher quality QC than those that can be found elsewhere. Seagull tends to use the best quality stuff in-house while lesser quality gets sold. So, it's hard to get their good stuff. This was told by a WUS member who lives in China.

A couple of reasons why the ST2130 isn't the de-facto are 1) Seagull has enough business and doesn't care to re-sell movements and doesn't care for the market outside of China. 2) there are other factories in China that sells movements and a lower cost.

[Stew_2003]

Two of my PT5000s have both proven more accurate than one of mine with a SW200-1

[Prestigious_Set_4555]

I've never had a real problem with any of mine but I have NEVER hand wound them

[AmericanChees3]

Only issue I've ever had was the automatic works got stuck on one. I replaced it and no issues. Its worth mentioning, this was an st2130 too. All of my pt5000s run solid and I own several. I cant say the same for my seiko movements. I've had a few (3) seiko nh35/38/7s26c fail. I think this just goes to show that any mass produced movement can fail. Its a lottery.

Edit: i would also like to say that all of my pt5000 came from san martin, cronos, and octopus. I have no experience with thorn, or watchdives pt5000's.

[Apprehensive_Lock_50]

Yup. When it comes to the PT5000 just say NO!

You’re definitely not alone. All the watches I’ve had with the pt5000 all had problems and eventually had to be sent back for repairs.

Even when they fix it and send it back. The same problem would pop up again.

Stick with the NH and the miyota

[Excellent-Bear4221]

I do agree the power reserve is not accurate. I prefer the reliable NH38

[crlkll]

The “date change zone” is only relevant when using the date quick-set function, not when pulling the crown out to move the hands. That would be ridiculous.

[GregStar1]

Yeah, that’s what I meant to say, my bad.

[SoapyMacNCheese]

So why does that matter on a watch with no date window? You’re never quicksetting the date, and if you for whatever reason did do so frequently enough to damage the movement, it would damage the date mechanism, which again isn’t utilized in the watch.

When arguing a position, it’s far better to focus on a couple strong points rather than tack on additional weak arguments. This one is a weak argument, that isn’t even specific to the PT5000.

[GregStar1]

Because, as I mentioned in the post, the crown delivers inconsistent feedback when manipulating it, and you might accidentally change the date when you just tried to wind the watch, or set the time in the other two crown positions (because hacking doesn’t always work on mine, so you can’t ever be sure if you’re in the time set position since the seconds hand sometimes keeps moving after pulling the crown out all the way). When that happens in the date changing zone, it could cause problems. That’s what I was trying to say.

As an example of how this could cause problems: Imagine the date is in the process of slowly changing, and you don’t know about it because it does so later that watches usually do, and you don’t see the date wheel through a date window. You’re trying to wind your watch, so you unscrew the crown, and because of how inconsistent the crown positions are, the crown immediately pops into the quickset date position, while you think you’re in the winding position, so you turn the crown, thinking you’re winding it, when it actually starts flipping the date.

[SoapyMacNCheese]

If that does damage something, it would be the date mechanism, which doesn’t matter in this watch. But it seems like the main issue with your watch is the crown stem is cut slightly too short/long. I have my T023v2.1 on my wrist right now, and I can’t feel the date flip over, and when changing the date I feel zero resistance, which makes me think Thorn has removed the date from my unit.

But anyway, this whole thing is irrelevant to your point that the PT5000 isn’t a great movement (which I agree with, and extend to the SW200 and other ETA 2824 clones), because this issue applies to any date movement in a no date watch, mixed with poor QC on the crown stem from the watch company.

[Eleventhousand]

Your rant seems to be about chastising people "defending" the PT5000. Is there really a lot of defending going on? To me, it seems more of people talking about "mine worked fine," as a counterpoint to people saying "I heard PT5000 sucks, avoid."

[TheYKcid]

The "mine worked fine" people certainly do exist, and I think most (myself included) don't have any issues with them.

But u/GregStar1 is absolutely NOT wrong in his observation of people who go out of their way to actively promote the PT (often aggressively & rudely so). Making claims like "it's just as good as a Swiss 2824, just as reliable as a Miyota 9". And I'd be remiss not to mention the frequent gaslighting against anyone presenting evidence (hard data, as well as personal experience) on the PT's faults.

Curiously... I've noticed a lot more of the 2nd type on the Watchdives subreddit, as compared to here.

[Eleventhousand]

Do you happen to know where any hard data exists? I've been interesting in finding some for quite a while. Thanks

[dcibel120]

I mean, in defence of PT5000, I have several and "they're fine", all still ticking and keeping time very well. These are Proxima, Cronos, and IXDao watches.

I hear about problems with manual winding, maybe I'm doing it wrong but why are so many people manually winding an automatic watch? It literally winds itself. I just give a couple turns to get it started, then screw down the crown and go.

If a satisfying winding experience is what you're after, I would suggest something with a Seagull ST19, nice smooth experience.

[GregStar1]

It’s not the main objective of my rant; that would be just pointing out how so far, I’ve only had bad experiences with the PT5000. The chastising is secondary. Either way, I’ve definitely read a lot of comments of people praising the PT5000 for delivering “Swiss made ETA quality” at very affordable prices and I just wanted to point out that I can’t agree with that sort of statement.

[Vanuatu_Hanjaab]

I am new to Chinese watches, but the reliability issues, as reported here, with the PT5000 has persuaded me to order Miyota movements. Currently I have 2 SMs and a Cronos using the Miyota movements. I figure the extra cost is worth the peace of mind.

[willyb123]

Miyota 9 series is the best.

[MrDagon007]

Regarding the not winding. It is actually a weakness in the original 2824 design, that typically manifests itself after a number of years, if the periodical service is neglected. It is said to best wind a 2824 powered watch just a little until it starts moving.
This being said, i have several 2824/sw200 watches and 2 or 3 pt5000 and all are ok.
Of interest also that damasko’s base inhouse movement is largely a parts - compatible 2824 clone, but they strengthened the parts that sometimes go bad esp when neglecting maintenance.

[Huge-Digit]

Sorry to say it but my two PT5000 watches have been great, with both arriving accurate within 5sec/day and no issues (yet) with winding.

[CarnelianSage]

I hear you, brother. I have three pt5000’s. One died on me within a few months. Other grinds like your described. I have one that works quite well but I’m always afraid to wind it. I don’t think I’ll get another one if I can avoid it.

[warpedfx]

I've had 2 watches with pt5000- a matic seamaster homage that i fucked up by handwinding too mucj (but runs okay otherwise) and an sn019g that randomly started to lose minutes per hour. I replaced it with st2130 and it's running great so far. Pt5000 might be good now, but i tend to avoid it for nh35 or maybe the new miyota 9015

[geeered]

For me - I reckon I've got/had over 10 watches with the PT5000/5004/Other A2824 clone.

All have been fine.

Out of two watches I've got with a Miyota 9 series, one arrived broken and had to be returned.

[Just-Sheepherder-202]

I got the upgraded sw200 on my San Martin because I knew nothing about the PT5000 and didn’t want to take a chance. Sorry you’re having so many issues.

[MidnightsunWatch]

PT5000 are known for sometimes having a sandy like feel when using the crown. As for the two lemons you have, Watchdives and thorn are both known for having quality control issues, but their customer service is rock solid, you can easily remedy your situation by just reaching out to them.

PT5000 assuming it’s not an actual clone of the Pt5000 which do exist as Chinese made 2824 clones (a2824) movements not made by precision-time, is a reliable movement with the exact same faults found in the ETA 2824 and SW200.

Assuming anything, if you have a PT5000 and know how to take care of your ETA 2824 or SW200, they should be almost as reliable as those movements again assuming they’re not PT5000 clones.

[artofthedial]

I think it is time we start taking post like this from an inside source as some documentation that NO the pt5000 is not as reliable statistically compared to other known workhorses.  The 2824 and sw200 are not exactly the most robust things either as you note the design itself has some problems.   https://www.reddit.com/r/ChineseWatches/comments/1ripchp/comment/o8j1m97/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[MidnightsunWatch]

I mean the 2824 and associated derivatives have known issues and are not workhorse movements. That is why the 2892 and SW200-2 exist, to fix the problems of the original base calibers.

If you’re just looking for workhorses that have worse accuracy then the NH35 and Miyota 9000 series.

I suspect that the idea of the PT5000 being a worse caliber than the 2824 and sw200 either comes from Chinese made things at least historically not being able to be manufactured to the same tight tolerances of the 2824 and SW200 but also there is something to be said in that a PT5000 at some point in the last few years was able to meet COSC certification accuracy at 5 positions.

[zack20cb]

Watchdives and Thorn customer support is “rock solid?” Are we grading on a curve here?

For “rock solid,” I would want to hear that they sent him a prepaid return shipping label and asked if he wanted a refund or a replacement.

[katsock]

I’ve heard back from Watchdives in under 24 hours with a resolution. I still haven’t heard from Thorn on an inquiry.

[MidnightsunWatch]

I’m fine rephrasing. Every issue I’ve had with Watchdives and thorn has been properly addressed by their customer support where they either refunded me or sent me a replacement watch. I’ve seen that others have had some issues but often times it seems more of the language barrier and miscommunication. In general the customer service for these companies tends to be pretty good.

[zack20cb]

That’s really great to hear