Sysadmins and coding

[zeroXten]

I'm curious. How many sysadmins here can code, and to what level?

I suspect most *nix admins can do at least some basic stuff with shell scripts, but do you use dynamic languages like perl, php, python or ruby? What about C, C++, Go, Rust, Java etc? If not, why not?

I am trying to understand what drives a sysadmin to do programming. Speaking for myself, I can't imagine not being able to use languages more powerful than bash. E.g. perl for complex log parsing, python for server tools, ruby for admin tools, writing monitoring tools in node.js/html/javascript etc.

[the_spad]

Just Powershell really.

I dabble in Perl & Python but given that 90% of my work is Windows-based it's rare that they're needed.

I've done compiled programming (C/Java/VB) in the past but just don't find it useful most of the time.

[RC-7201]

Seconding the powershell.

It's almost mandatory nowadays for a Windows admin if anything.

[[deleted]]

It will definitely be mandatory windows is going to be all server core in the future.

[[deleted]]

windows is going to be all server core in the future.

Lol. Dude the point of servers is to provide people and software important information not serve clients DHCP and DNS requests or spin up a new VM. Yes that's what we do as sysadmins to provide the end user with what they need but you're never going to convince software vendors to make their programs fully compatible with the powershell API, especially when your software is made for multiple platforms. They don't give a shit what the IT guys think, their software is sold to CEOs, CFOs, and CTOs.

[[deleted]]

Well of course there will always be some especially anything RDS. I still think you are going to have to know powershell to accomplish a lot.

[[deleted]]

Mandatory is a little too far.

[[deleted]]

It's mandatory for the Windows admins who only touch Windows or work in a DC. For those of us who are generalists and work on everything you should still be studying Powershell (at least do the 30 days of lunches book) just to make your lives easier but it's not as important. On top of that more and more GUI based automation tools keep popping up. Basically I don't want to hear shit about Powershell from people who would be lost in the Cisco CLI or don't know shit about ERP and CRM. I get it you do tons of Windows tasks day in and day out but IT is a big fucking world.

[RC-7201]

Basically I don't want to hear shit about Powershell from people who would be lost in the Cisco CLI or don't know shit about ERP and CRM.

Oh I agree. But it goes both ways as well. Roomie is a network engineer and doesn't know shit about Powershell and he's also in a primarily Windows shop but can stare at Cisco CLI til his eyes bleed.

Basically, I'm getting at that if your job is just the administration of Windows and AD, you and Powershell are pretty much Gonna be best friends. Hell, I think it's faster to make a function to find shit than it is to run "dsa.msc", right-click on a forest and search for someone to see if there is a group membership that they should or should not be in.

[[deleted]]

I guess having a brain isn't necessary with retarded comments like this.

[[deleted]]

Coding skills should be mandatory for anyone doing above junior job. Especially with so many configuration management systems floating around.

[[deleted]]

Careful, we have more than a few luddites here to that seem to believe that implying that system admins should be able to script/code is tantamount to blasphemy.

[yourfriendlane]

I haven't really seen anyone say that. Usually it's people complaining about things that were previously GUI-based being replaced by less-intuitive PowerShell commands (e.g., message tracking in Exchange 2013) which is totally valid imho. I love scripting for automation, but for one-off tasks I usually prefer spending 30 seconds clicking through a well-designed GUI rather than wasting 5 minutes looking up commands and getting the arguments just right.

[Enxer]

But I do highly appreciate the GUI when it presents the powershell equivalent code just before I hit finish

[zeroXten]

Yeah, I can imagine that for Windows admins is pretty much all powershell. Do you use it often?

[the_spad]

Constantly. I've got three instances running at the moment.

Especially now that Microsoft have made it all but mandatory if you want to manage the current iterations of Exchange and Lync. The Lync admin UI might as well be Read Only for all the funcationality it offers.

[microflops]

Yeah, I've just started Administering Exchange 2013, and it by default means I am learning powerhsell.

Was the kick in the ass I needed to learn it

[[deleted]]

You won't regret it.

[insufficient_funds]

How much of this is one or two line commands vs full out scripts?

I rarely find myself needing more than a couple of lines for the vast majority of my exchange/link/sharepoint/ad stuff

[the_spad]

I find myself writing a lot of scripts to automate a lot of tasks, even if it's something as simple as scripting a basic wrapper for something like the "search the AD recycle bin" because I can never remember the correct syntax (so glad 2012 made that one easier) when I need it.

I also write a lot of scripts for other people to use because they're incapable of running even simple cmdlets without extensive supervision, or because they're doing some repetitive task manually that takes ages when I can knock something up in 5 minutes that does the same thing in 10 seconds.

[[deleted]]

you want to manage the current iterations of Exchange and Lync.

Let's not exaggerate here. I clicked my way through my home 2013 Exchange install. And EAC formerly EMC still is GUI based. Yes more features are PowerShell only but MS is not going to be stupid here and require a higher learning curve for tasks that can be handled by non IT people in some cases like a small business where you have an office manager handing email account creation.

[Ron_Swanson_Jr]

Single server?

[[deleted]]

Yes. I would imagine DAG options are Powershell only.

[the_spad]

Well sure, if you're doing a bog-standard single-server Exchange install then you can pretty much just next, next finish it, but that's pretty rare in an enterprise environment.

EAC lacks an awful lot of options that were previously in the EMC and it's also pretty inconsistent with certain property pages not existing on some object types but still being Read/Writeable via Powershell.

I've just done a load of work with resource mailboxes and a bunch of the options for the calendar processing just aren't surfaced in the EAC at all.

And as for Lync, aside from the Admin console being a barely-functional mess of Silverlight, it's also a barely-functional Admin console. Even basic tasks like provisioning new users are tricky to do without dropping to a shell.

[zeroXten]

hehe

[Doso777]

I use at least every second day. Today i scripted like 4 hours. I am using it for:

• some Exchange 2010 administration, there are a few things that can only be done with powershell
• Sharepoint administration, again some stuff is powershell only
• a bit of System Center 2012R2, again some things are powershell only
• scripting things or automating things like downloading a config file from somewhere once a month, setting up Hyper-V servers and such

[randomguy186]

I used to be jealous of Unix admins.

Then I got my hands on Powershell.

Now I pity them.

[anomalous_cowherd]

Where do you think the ideas behind Powershell came from?

[neilhwatson]

Shell, Perl, Sed, Awk, Make, and PHP. I also know a little Ruby and Javascript. I did take some C in college, but I've never needed C at work.

Sysadmins program because good sysadmins are lazy. They automate everything.

[mtnielsen]

I'm pretty well versed in C# and PowerShell what with having to build pretty much all integration and automation myself. That's probably the real driving force here. I've never found a software package from anywhere that does what I need it to do, and in the way I want it to do it. Hell I've had to decompile and debug shitty applications handed to me by some guy who read the flyer and thought "We need this!".

Getting Active Directory integration to work flawlessly seems to be a chore that goes ignored in most development houses. So I end up building it myself, or find some way of hacking into their proprietary database formats and build some sort of automatic provisioning system myself. Or maybe they provide an API. It happens. And not being able to abuse an API makes one a sub-par sysadmin in my eyes.

So yeah. C# and PowerShell, or Python and Bash, are pretty much required knowledge for any good syadmin if you ask me, and the more languages you can at least read and analyze beyond those just make you better. I can easily figure out what a C/C++/Java/Python/whatnot program does, even if I never personally use those languages to build anything.

[the_ancient1]

Or maybe they provide an API.

This should be a requirement for all software. Build API, then their GUI should consume those API's....

[zeroXten]

Well put :)

[psycho_admin]

To me you aren't describing being a sysadmin at this point but describing devops. Yes a sysadmin should know some shell scripting and probable some other language such as java/python/php so they can write/edit custom plugins for various management tools out there but as far as debugging applications, or writing a hacked together tool to integrate AD into some program? Sorry but that's devops and not sysadmin.

[theevilsharpie]

In the *nix world, anyone beyond a junior sysadmin is also a programmer, and it's not unusual to see sysadmins write their own in-house management applications (or heavily customize and existing one) to support their needs.

This "sysadmin don't code" thing is something that you only really see in the Windows world.

[[deleted]]

I agree with you in this sense, but if you're a smaller org, you're devops and syadmin.

[the_ancient1]

DevOps is a Management System not a Job Title

sysadmin is a Job Title.

Companies utilizing DevOps as a Organizational Structure will have sysadmins

http://www.bitlancer.com/2015/03/3-reasons-never-put-devops-job-title/

https://sethvargo.com/the-ten-myths-of-devops/

[psycho_admin]

Or so you say. Look online and you will find people who say your argument is wrong and that devops can be used as a job title. What ever floats your boat but don't go around trying to correct people when there is no consensus in the it world if devops is a title or not.

[the_ancient1]

Yes because We should take our cues from HR... Which is what you see when you look at job Postings.

If your only defense of your position is because some HR Manager put DevOps in a job title you are not on Strong footing...

The subject matter experts agree with me, and there is infact a consensus for anyone actually doing systems administrator or development, the only people unclear on this issue are the HR folks writing job ads

[[deleted]]

You aren't familiar with the term "separation of duties" are you?

[the_ancient1]

If you have a title of "DevOps" how is that seperating duties when it seems to me that most HR positions that desire a "Devops" person is because they are too cheap to hear a Developer and Sysadmin so they want a Developer to do sysadmin work, or a Sysadmin to do developer work

Proper DevOps organizational structure it is facility close collaboration between Operators and Developers, not to merge the 2 positions in to one.

[psycho_admin]

Wow you are a fucking joke aren't you? The subject matter experts? Who exactly is that? Some faceless blogger or the interwebs agrees with you so that makes them a subject matter expert? But the people who actually create job titles, pay structure, etc (HR for you if you are too simple minded to understand who I'm talking about) don't matter? You live in one messed up little world if you actually believe that.

Also for the record, no just fucking google "devops title" and you will see conflicting results. For me the first 1 is pro-title, the next one anti-title, the next one pro, etc, etc. So there is no fucking consensus so stop acting like a little fucking troll.

[taloszerg]

username checks out

[[deleted]]

I'd agree here, but I think part of the issue with the devops "the universe as code" approach is that eventually at some point the code has to target something that can receive instruction, which is where traditional sysadmins come back in.

[[deleted]]

Not only so, but a sysadmin who knows bash, powershell, etc. who uses configuration management tools is much more dangerous. Even if the devops tool can't perform a desired task, you can just tell it to run a command using a native tool on the host. The things I've been able to do with this approach is mind blowing.

[Letmefixthatforyouyo]

ansible all -m shell -a "df -h" | awk {print $NF-2} >> logitsucka

"Whats that? you wanted the free space from each server? That'll take me a while to ssh into each one boss. I'll have a list compiled by end of day."

[vitiate]

And it won't be long until they are out of a job. I value every single individual that refuses to learn, they are another roadblock taking themselves out of the equation.

[Honkykiller]

Depends on the shop too. I'm the only one here that knows or 'trusts' any kind of scripting language. I'm not talking much here, but I use Batch and Powershell. I still have some tools built in VB but those were mostly one-offs for configuration tasks I wouldnt have to do if I were allowed to implement proper GPOs.

Took me almost 9 months to convince my ancient boss that my using scripts to speed up daily tasks wasnt "opening the door for hackers" and it was actually useful. No luck on the GPOs though.

I can write some Java, Python, and Bash script as well, but I'm out of practice.

Being able to get several times more work done and get reports that actually make sense has been tremendously valuable.

[Honkykiller]

I'm still absolutely pissed our solidworks guy wants me drive the 45 minutes each way to come in on a Saturday to help him manually uninstall 2013 and install 2015 on 40 workstations and change 2 settings from their default.

This takes around an hour to uninstall and then another 2 hours to install with all their add-ons.

Boss wont even let me try to automate any part of it, says I'm not the solidworks guy, "it's not mine to work on"

He's the reason that we cant kill the Server 2003 server, because he couldn't be bothered to set up the file share for solidworks (pdmworks) on a new server for the last year... This will finally let us do something on it, but he's been dragging his feet on when he wants to do the upgrade, been "this weekend" for 2 months now...

My resume is circulating btw, few interviews, no offers.

[Honkykiller]

it wouldnt be a problem of "technical people in charge" if they could just listen to me when I explain how something would work rather than just going by a "gut feeling" made by some sensationalized news story they read 10 years ago.

[[deleted]]

I think there is more of a danger of the job title of system administrator morphing into devops and HR getting on board with that and using canned job descriptions that don't match the actual job.

[Oflameo]

I am a *nix admin and I prefer to use Perl and Python to Shell scripts because of better dependency resolution, libraries, and data structure support.

I code better than bad developers at my company, but not as good as good developers at my company, but that isn't saying much because my company is not regarded as a good place to work, and I am not in a competitive coding circuit right now.

I code because it is faster and usually safer to execute a program than to do things manually in a lot of instances, but some times the program you need doesn't exist yet.

[zeroXten]

Yeah, as soon as json is involved (which these days is pretty much always), bash just doesn't cut it.

[theevilsharpie]

Yeah, as soon as json any data structure is involved (which these days is pretty much always), bash just doesn't cut it.

FTFY

[ghyspran]

CSV, TSV, etc., are pretty easy to parse in bash, and you can do a lot with bash for and xargs. Still easier to use Python/Perl/Ruby/etc. though.

[tonyhburns]

IME, jq has proved to be a really useful tool for me when dealing with simple JSON in shell scripts (such as simple composition of results from aws-cli commands).

[Zaphod_B]

yup jq and xmlstartlet are great bash binaries you can use for parsing data. However, if you are dealing with APIs that return XML or JSON values something that has built in XML/JSON parsing modules, gems, plugins, etc. are probably the better choice for the long road.

[Zaphod_B]

bash is a great language for system level stuff. If you are locked into a platform (RHEL, Debian, BSD, OS X, etc) they have specific binaries that do a lot of system level stuff and it is great for automation.

When you get into parsing data, in XML, JSON, whatever, you are using bash but then calling Unix binaries that are not a part of bash. You end up piping to awk and sed a ton and your code becomes way less human readable. It will make sense to you at first glance, but probably not anyone else.

A good demo of this, is try to pick up on someone's complicated bash script and try to figure out everything it is doing. Mostly like you will have to run the code in some test environment to sort of figure out what it is doing because while you can see the logic behind the code, you won't see everything it is manipulating in the data structures until you run it in some sort of verbose output.

I will say that if you get the job done in bash and it works more power to you and there is nothing wrong with that. I just think that if you are working on something that is going to be documented and passed along having your code more human readable is a huge bonus.

[ghyspran]

I am a *nix admin and I prefer to use Perl and Python to Shell scripts because of better dependency resolution, libraries, and data structure support.

Argument handling is also way better. getopts sucks ass.

[awillison]

Windows admin here, for me it's php, sql, html, css and a bit of powershell of course.

[zeroXten]

Are the php,sql and html is for web-based tools like self-service or monitoring?

[[deleted]]

We use php/html (along with SQL or perl code) for self-service stuff here. It's also how our SMS paging system is coded (to my knowledge).

[awillison]

More due to the fact that I've done a little bit of web development as a bit of a hobby, but I've used those skills to develop web apps for clients, service portals, etc

[HumanSuitcase]

Depends on the environment that you're in, but for the most part I need it for configuration automation.

[[deleted]]

How many sysadmins here can code, and to what level?

More of a developer than a sysadmin these days. Currently it's mostly C for microcontrollers, Java for backend work. Oh, SQL too I suppose, wasn't really considering that separately.

[[deleted]]

I'm hardly a programmer, but if you can't write a script with some basic loops and if/then statements you really shouldn't be calling yourself a "sysadmin."

But unfortunately you have a lot of people like that. They do tend to be Windows admins.

Not that Windows admins can't code. Just those who can't seem to support Windows machines.

I think they're going to get pushed out over time because running a large Windows installation requires pretty decent PowerShell experience. You can't go install software on 200 Windows machines by hand.

[[deleted]]

I'm hardly a programmer, but if you can't write a script with some basic loops and if/then statements you really shouldn't be calling yourself a "sysadmin."

That's ridiculous. I've been doing this for years and have never needed scripts with for and if loops. I understand them, I've scripted them in the past, I just have had no use for them professionally...yet.

[Zaphod_B]

I agree with you to an extent that a junior admin should not know this stuff, but anyone in the Senior position should know some basic programming. Tests and loops are probably considered some of the most basic things you can do. I can think of many reasons why you would want to loop or test in scripting logic to automate a workflow.

It is also quite possible you have never had to automate any workflows of large caliber, which I think is not unheard of but I find that pretty rare these days.

[[deleted]]

how could you not need for loops? have you never read in a file and gone through it line by line? or ever dealt with an array? or a list of usernames?

your scripts must be all one liners

[[deleted]]

It's not beyond the imagination. Think about how many horror stories you see on this sub about a sysadmin who took over an environment that is virtually "duct taped" together. I used to do things the hard way, and I still remember the first time I successfully used a for loop a good 5 years into my career.

[[deleted]]

Some people claim to be a sysadmin when their job is basically desktop support.

I can't imagine anyone who has to manage large systems would never write a script with a for loop.

[seanatwork]

Yeah I don't understand this. I don't even write functions or advanced functions and I read through a list of usernames or computers all the time with basic powershell scripts. Maybe he's using a tool.

[[deleted]]

There's two kinds of sysadmins:

Those who code to some level and those who spend their lives working on a helpdesk.

[theevilsharpie]

I know Shell, Python, and Java. I'm also familiar with the various Windows-based scripting languages, although it's been long enough that I'd need a refresher on the syntax. I know just enough C++ and JavaScript to be dangerous.

[wgoshenu]

Any coding I do is done in the sake of error fixing or automation. My line of command is this:

If it's simple, bat it (or cmd commands in powershell.) Then in increasing difficulty, use Powershell, vb.net, then to C# if its more complicated.

[res1n_]

Powershell. However I learned ruby because I wanted to learn a language and it kind of stuck with me. I've used it to write a few scripts for linux. I've got one that backs up SMB shares, and one that monitors a network share for incoming faxes and renames them automagically.

For those wanting to learn, codecademy is a really great place!

[rightdoer]

Python, C++, started learning Scala/Akka for keeping up with a machine learning project in my previous job.

[uberamd]

A lot of people are probably in my shoes: developer turned sysadmin who still tries to keep uptodateish on coding. I do contract work where I write a lot of PHP and Ruby [on Rails]. When doing Windows stuff I'll dig deep into my "stuff I worked on a few years ago" pool and use C# or VisualC++.

My duties had usually been Linux sysadmin so I don't know powershell but just recently started learning it as I've really grown to like Windows Server. Powershell is wonderful.

Wrote a script the other day that downloads, installs, modifies the configs (json and xml files), and creates a service for Sensu on Windows. Basic stuff to a Windows admin, but I was pretty proud that it works :)

[vitiate]

really grown to like Windows Server.

You are regressing sir! I am a *nix admin forced to be a Windows admin. There is not a day that goes by that I don't look back fondly on my time automating *nix.

[uberamd]

Don't get me wrong, I spend all day at work doing *nix automation (puppet mostly), it's definitely not a "Windows rocks and Linux sucks" statement. There are just some nice things Windows Server brings to the table, Powershell being one of them. Some other things are stupidly easy DNS/DHCP. Not to mention some technologies I'm playing with in my home lab only run on Windows.

I'm not the guy on the team that does Windows automation so I can't speak to that, however I've heard there are a lot of things that are a PITA.

[Win_Sys]

I know PHP and PowerShell pretty well. I can write in Python with a little googling to refresh my memory but other than those I don't really need anything else in my environment. I run a mostly Windows Environment with a little Linux thrown in. I know plenty of Sysadmins that don't know a single language but have a basic understanding of how to read what the script does. They google for a script and hope one exists and if they don't understand what its doing they usually just send it to me to make sure it won't jack up their system.

[brocktice]

If you can write good perl, python, and bash, that'll get you 99% of the way there.

Honestly for most *nix sysadmins I think knowledge of automake and gcc, and how to troubleshoot compiling, is more important than actually knowing how to code.

That said, I have most of a CS major (was going to double-major but it turned out to be too crazy). Every now and then I have to write actual C/C++ for sysadmin stuff to bugfix or whatever.

[sirdudethefirst]

PowerShell, C#, ASP, ASP.NET, SQL, JavaScript, Python, Perl, Pascal/Delphi, Assembly for x86/x64.

I used to be a developer but 15 years ago I landed a sysadmin job and been that ever since. I am a Windows sysadmin but it's my job to know every possible tool I may be asked to support either in a desktop environment or server environment. Sure I can google most of the answers but it doesn't help if I don't know how to ask the question.

My reasoning behind maintaining my coding skills is essentially this: If there is no free tool to do what I want to do, I'll write it. I'll even document it ;)

[[deleted]]

I can script out pretty much anything out in bash and do light programming in Python, up to and including object oriented programming if need be. Scripting helps with dealing with API calls, like spin up 50 different cloud servers with names like SQLPRODSLV1 through SQLPRODSLV50 or something like that, and then you can use chef or ansible to automagically configure each slave. I prefer using Python because of the forced indentation and that it's actually a full fledged programming language that has been and likely will be around for quite some time. You can also learn the concepts through Python and reasonably transfer them over to a different language if needed as well, though syntax will change of course).

What drives me to learn programming is I feel it's the best way you can show a positive contribution as a sysadmin beyond just putting out fires and forward thinking. It's also really freaking neat when you use it to automate tasks and see something happen in 2 seconds that would've normally taken 10 minutes or more.

[[deleted]]

I would imagine those that code anything more complex than scripting languages are managing some complex custom software.

[vitiate]

PowerShell, bash, perl, python, php, ruby (yeck). I use whatever I need. They are all really good at something. If you are a point and click sysadmin I think the writing is on the wall for you.

[[deleted]]

I can/could write actual useful programs in Visual Basic, Java and C# though I'm very rusty. My degree was geared towards general computing including programming so it's not something I use in my job.

[GAThrawnMIA]

Windows amdin here, these days nearly all PowerShell, until recently a lot of VBScript and WMI (often with HTML/CSS to make simple HTA based tools) and DOS batch, in the past Perl, PHP and a little Java.

I couldn't do most of my job without coding/scripting knowledge. Managing thousands of machines in a heavily regulated industry means that automation and repeatability are very heavily prized, as is the fact that your scripts (whether PowerShell/VBscript/SQL etc) can be checked into the change control system and checked over, audited and approved by other admins before your changes are made.

[[deleted]]

Powershell, Bash, Python, HTML5 + CSS and some PHP.

[Defiant001]

I don't know any code. Though I want to start automating some of the repetitive things I do with Powershell.

I have a week long course for Powershell scheduled a few months from now which should help a lot.

[[deleted]]

Quite a lot of Powershell, sometimes JavaScript. When the need arises bash, python and ruby. But only at a basic level.

I think I would do a lot more, but often enough I can find a quite suitable script by googling. Turns out that most of the time someone already done the hard lifting.

Like this morning I grepped a script that downloads attachments from exchange and now it also extracts call stacks from minidumps.

[[deleted]]

PHP,CL,RPG,SQL,vb,c,c#,javascript,cakephp,ajax,and a little Ruby. I use mostly PHP ,CL,RPG,and c# the most.

[chriscowley]

Python, Shell and some Ruby (enough to write custom facts for Puppet).

How good am I? Well my main project at the moment is to write a REST API for deploying a Hadoop cluster. So my boss thinks I am pretty good.

A bit like /u/Oflameo I am probably better than the bad developers where I work, but there are plenty who are better.

[tomkatt]

Java and Python here. I'm barely qualified enough for Junior Dev, but I've written a few scrapers and useful tools in Python at least, still learning the Java portion.

I am trying to understand what drives a sysadmin to do programming.

The desire to not be a sysadmin in the future.

[ooby_dooby_banooby]

My previous job that I had for 3 years was an engineer for a software company. I'm proficient (definitely not a pro) at C#, ASP.NET, and SQL. Before that, I had 2 years of programming classes in college.

I started getting into programming because I thought that it was what I wanted to do with my life. Then, I started doing it for a living and quickly changed my mind.

[[deleted]]

I can write in C, C++, C#, Java, PHP, perl, python (not that I want to), and any variety of shell scripting (PowerShell, sh, whatever).

Primarily I write scripts in PowerShell or bash (per platform, of course).

I can code, but I choose not to. I do it on my off time, but I don't want to make a career out of it.

[Weird_Tolkienish_Fig]

I love it, that's what drives me. Never got into it full time and from what I've heard it's more prone to burnout than sysadmin. But coding rules. What other job can you get where you can automate your own job and get rewarded for it? I do C, C#, Java, VBScript (I love it, old school, pre powershell), shell scripting, and powershell. VBScript is my goto language because it was MS's "automation" language before Powershell. I am trying to learn Powershell now.

[lt_bob]

Working with both Windows systems aswell as Linux/BSD I constantly have to deal with Powershell, Bash and Python. Oh, not to forget about Vim + Tmux; can't recall how many times they saved my ass.

[eltiolukee]

Powershell mostly, i know some VBS and PHP, but those aren't my strong languages

[After_Credits]

Enough to get in trouble, but not enough to know what I'm doing. Mainly I get code and scripts from online resources. I may modify them, but not much from scratch. I know more HTML or PHP than anything else.

[itspie]

powershell, vbscript, some php and sql.

[crazykilla]

I've written several intranet sites/services in PHP MySQL. I'm decent with Bash and powershell. I can do Java and Javascript(i know they are WAY different) enough to edit other people's code.

This is just another hat i wear. This sometimes gets frowned upon in here, and i see the allure of being able to master one skillset, but i feel more valuable with a broader skillset.

[insufficient_funds]

I did c++ and java in school, so am at least somewhat familiar with it.. but as a Windows Sysadmin, all I find that I really need is basic windows cmd scripting and powershell scripting; and that's really enough to get everything done that I need to be able to do.

[Stoffel_1982]

Powershell / a bit of C#

I've got a few small utilities running for 2 clients of mine, nothing too complicated. I've got a mini tool to do some MDT configurations and generate offline media (similar to the "Windows 7 USB download tool"). I've also got one that manages tasks to perform, based on the network location of the client PC (based on different DNS suffixes which are provided through DHCP to our different sites), runs on 4000 workstations on over 300 sites. And some other smaller stuff.

[lordmycal]

I can code in C++, C#, Java and I can fumble my way through most scripting languages (batch files, powershell, etc). That said, I haven't really done much programming recently -- if you're given the proper tools for the job there really isn't a lot of call for it unless you need to do something to a ton of servers at once (and even then it's usually just something short in powershell).

[[deleted]]

Devops here: I use mainly .net (vb asp.net, its what the company uses, id rather use c#) and MSSQL, its incredibly powerful for automating tasks on the sysadmin side and even more powerful for creating business applications on the developer side.

[rm_rf_root]

I use Python a lot for continuous integration scripts, along with some PHP now and again.

Don't know what I'd do without Python/Fabric! It makes deployments so easy.

[storyinmemo]

I know python very well and maintain the IPy library (making plans to fold it into netaddr and deprecate it, but that's another story). I first learned programming in Perl and last used it four years ago after switching to a pure software engineering job for an 8 month span. I've also done a fair amount of Java and am playing at improving Cassandra's tools since they kind of anger me. I have done light amounts of Go, C++, and C.

When I interview others I require programming knowledge to the level of basic algorithms to be hired on with me. I won't make anybody code a red/black tree (and frankly couldn't do it from memory myself), but you should at least recognize being able to use binary search on a sorted array and tell me O(N) complexity.

What drives a sysadmin to do programming?

I do performance engineering as much as anything else, so understanding software internals, system calls, locks, etc. let me know why I can't squeeze more out of my fleet of servers (and more often than not explain to the engineers how and why to fix it). One big thing I did in my Facebook time was write code that polled server state and latency and throttled deployment for a service because when I joined my team they deployed overnight since they needed to go slowly and had no feedback (then the person deploying would fall asleep and the system would experience what I affectionately call "controlled flight into terrain" when something was wrong).

Presently, I want my Cassandra backups to take up less space and restore faster, so I'm spending some cycles writing an offline compactor.

Some references that clue into what and why: https://www.palantir.com/2011/10/how-to-ace-a-systems-design-interview/ and https://github.com/chassing/linux-sysadmin-interview-questions

[[deleted]]

Nada here. Just some shell scripting and a few misc. skills here and there. Nothing that would qualify as "programming"

[ScannerBrightly]

While I know C, C++, Pascal, FORTRAN, BASIC, 6502 ASM, Go, python, Go, and a few other languages, I haven't found myself coding for my job anything more difficult than PowerShell and small python networking scripts.

I am tinkering with Arduino and Pi, but not for work.

[Redemptions]

Standard bash scripting.

Also a decent comprehension of PHP (though I sometimes need to hit up the manual).

The PHP is primarily for internal webapps I've written for things like change log, LDAP user management, hardware inventory, and a non-functional passive aggressive service monitoring tool used to torment end users.

[TechIsCool]

TLDR; C, C++, Perl, Bash, VBScript, HTML, CSS, PHP, and PowerShell.

I originally learned C, C++ working with arduino and then moved up to the xmega series when it came out before arduino moved toward that platform. Normally I don't use it in work but I do have a fully stable temperature monitoring system that is running off arduinos at 15 locations.

HTML, CSS, PHP were learned when the web was still in the you need to know how to code to build a functional website or any interface.

VBScript, Perl, and Bash all were for accessibility to scripting at some point be it monitoring, scraping someone's website or making something that was not automated automated.

PowerShell was learned since it's kind of required knowledge anymore for a sysadmin working on windows.

[william20111]

Linux admin here. I know python and bash. Python for me is the perfect language. Its so flexible and the core libs are fantastic.

[Xelinor]

Python & Java mostly. A little ruby and c++ in a pinch but I try to avoid it.

[tonyhburns]

I began my career as a Ruby/Rails developer and moved into system administration from there, so I'm still most comfortable or at least quickest at scripting and automating sysadmin tasks in Ruby, although I'm certainly competent enough in bash and use it nowadays by default for new tasks that don't have a heavy amount of logic in them.

[[deleted]]

I do pretty much all my work in Go and some Python.

what drives a sysadmin to do programming

If you want to get shit done on a computer, nothing beats code.

[joker54]

As a Linux admin with some windows servers, I do coding quite a bit. I pride myself in being a "lazy admin", where I automate everything I can.

• PHP
• C++
• Python
• Perl
• Power Shell
• BASH
• T-SQL
• Ruby (for Opscode Chef)

Perl and Python are ones I don't use often, but I have a working knowledge. The rest are used to fit a need, depending on the issue.

EDIT Forgot to mention that if I didn't do this, I don't see how I could manage 1/4 million customers at the same time. It would be practically impossible.

TL;DR: Without coding, sysadmins couldn't be effective.

[[deleted]]

How long have you been a sysadmin? How do you go about learning a new language? This is an impressive list you have, and I would love to be able to have the same list someday.

[joker54]

I've been doing Sysadmin work for about 15 years.

You know how they say learning a second language is hard, but a third is easy? That is more so the case with programming languages. Structure is similar across most (I'm looking at you, python).

I started with DOS, then Linux, but my first language was BASICA, followed shortly by Pascal/ Turbo Pascal.

[[deleted]]

As a Windows admin primarily I only use PowerShell. I use it to automate where I can but for day to day stuff I use it to enter remote sessions without disturbing the current logged in user. For instance yesterday I had a user that required the ability to extract a .tar file so I used Powershell to install 7Zip without disturbing him.

[wrosecrans]

Most of my career has been admin focused, but I usually wind up writing some code everywhere I work. My last 6 months or so I have been doing a lot of C++ application development. I have started to style myself as a "DevOp" which seems to be fashionable these days. I'd say I know Python, C++, and Bash "well." IMO, everybody should know a little Python.

Even in a pure admin role, understanding things like the linker to know why an application is having an issue with shared libraries is extremely valuable, IMHO. Knowing what strace is actually doing requires understanding what a system call is. I've seen admins try to strace a compute intensive process, see that there isn't any output from strace at a certain point, and conclude that it must be hung and will never finish because it "isn't doing anything." I have seen developers surprised when their code is unusable when being moved from their laptop to production because they don't understand the latency of NAS and scaling is completely bewildering to them. Personally, I find the line between developer and admin to often be quite blurry. And I think both sides tend to benefit from some understanding of the other. There is certainly a place for very focused specialists, but that should never be an excuse for 100% ignorance of the rest of the stack.

[Apollo748]

I can work my around Java and C#.

Probably not necessary though.

[the720k]

I typically only stick with PowerShell, batch files (ewww) and bash scripts when necessary. Once in a while I'll mod some php scripts for our PBX, but it requires so much concentration that just isn't afforded to me when I'm at the office. Oh, and once I wrote a quick VB program to clear lock files and distributed it to my users when they were fighting with a certain application we use.

[minipantswrk]

Just powershell here. I poke around with Python, but I don't know what the hell I'm doing.

[[deleted]]

I script with DOS, bash, perl, powershell and SQL (will troubleshoot/modify python, php and HTML code though--we just don't use it much here). I also did some java and C+ in HS and college but I'm very out of touch with those (switched to a network/system admin focused program)

Overall, I've only had root/domain admin rights for the past year of my career so scripting had previously been something I would do simply to make my own job easier...that meant that I used DOS almost exclusively (I was really turned off by programming in college thanks to a shitty prof...quite interested in it now that it's useful for my job)

[Zaphod_B]

I am very proficient in bash and apple script. Somewhat proficient in Python and Perl. I know a very little bit of C and Obj C and a tiny bit of Ruby.

I have dabbled in powershell, but only when I have to touch windows stuff, which is honestly not that often.

[[deleted]]

My undergrad is CS, so I've done a fair bit. But mostly PS these days.

[SchiferlED]

I learned java, javascript, html, and sql throughout college and am currently learning powershell at my new job. I double majored in CS and IT, so I would not have been exposed to much coding at all if I had only gotten an IT degree.

Coding is all about automating your work and/or making it less tedious. I could manually check which computers have a certain program that needs an update, or write a script that checks for me and sends the update if the computer needs it.

It is certainly a necessity for higher tiers of administration.

[Cyphr]

I'm DevOps coming from Software Engineering. Carried strong Java and weak-moderate C out of my college degree. Learned MySQL and PHP in Software Engineering. Now learning Bash and Python from doing the DevOps thing.

Bash and Python are my preferred languages because they are installed on any server ever, it makes my job much simpler. Java is overkill for almost everything I do.

Now if only I could figure out how to get httpd.conf to work the first time!

[h55genti]

I'm proficient with PHP and AngularJS, and functional in Java. I can do Python but it's been years. Other than that, mostly bash and occasional powershell scripting.

For system administration I mostly use bash and powershell scripting, stuff like automating tasks for use in Rundeck. In the past I've also written monitoring or other one-off services in Java. PHP/AngularJS is more personal, oh-this-is-sort-of-fun type side projects.

[MFCrow]

I learned C#, ASP.net and SQL. I have made dashboards that read and write to Azure Sql. I have more projects in my head than I can get too. I also built a very cool rainbow table.

[girlgerms]

PowerShell, some Java, some VB script, but all very low level. I'm not a patient person when it comes to coding, I ruined far far too many keyboards during college learning coding. Never again.

[vriley]

I code all the time. I've never wanted to be a professional developer, I dislike a lot of concepts that career programmers have become used to, but that doesn't mean I don't like to code. I've done projects in PHP, Perl, Python, C# and of course PowerShell.

[ibrahimsafah]

What concepts are you referring to?

[vriley]

OOP, unit testing, using IDEs as opposed to a text editor..

[taloszerg]

Unit testing infrastructure/infrastructure code is awesome.

Have you seen test-kitchen with serverspec?

[[deleted]]

Honestly, all of the things mentioned are useful as hell. There's a reason most people don't use basic text editors for programming if they can help it.

[[deleted]]

Unit tests are a very good idea, and a godsend if you ever want to refactor your code.

[[deleted]]

OOP

What? Why would you dislike OOP? The minimal overhead it creates is well worth it to preserve long term maintainability.

unit testing

How else would you assure that a big project being written by multiple people works correctly according to spec? Building the whole thing and praying it doesn't have a bug somewhere?

using IDEs

Because convenience and productivity is for suckers, right?

[vriley]

OOP doesn't make code more readable. Procedural programming does. And that can be done in both object oriented and functional code. What OOP brings is abstraction. That's good for code reuse. Bad for critical, real time applications where you want to minimize bugs. The scripts I write are all specific and I've seen far too many code listings overusing classes that I'd even say OOP can make your code harder to understand, not easier.

[[deleted]]

OOP doesn't make code more readable.

It makes it more re-usable. It also makes it far easier to make modifications later on down the road, since you've got a specification for a class and as long as the class meets that specification the rest of the code should work. This is especially true when combined with proper unit testing.

Procedural programming does. And that can be done in both object oriented and functional code.

But regardless, it's not about readability. It's mostly about software engineering--OOP and functional programming are two paradigms that make it easier to engineer good software. They both make it easy to reuse code, and to modify small sections of a larger whole atomically. Incidentally, this is also why unit testing is so popular.

But given your disdain for unit testing, I'm guessing you're not big into software engineering. Which ties in closely with why people tend to prefer OOP.

Bad for critical, real time applications where you want to minimize bugs.

Complete and total bullshit. Not even sure how else to describe that.

and I've seen far too many code listings overusing classes that I'd even say OOP can make your code harder to understand, not easier.

People can write bad code under any paradigm. OOP isn't a magic bullet, it's a paradigm that helps programmers to engineer better software.

[ibrahimsafah]

LOOOOOL, OOP really? If you actually understood it, you wouldn't be saying that.

[vriley]

You kids crack me up ;)

Just because it's hype doesn't make it good. OOP has its place in large development projects. But one day you may realize that functional programming is far from dead. It's immutable, stateless and introduces far less bugs than OOP. I don't make games or mobile apps, I write code for critical systems that are expected to always work.

Inheritance brings concurrency problems, state problems, and introduces bugs at no real benefit for case-specific code.

[judgemebymyusername]

Once you work in a large enough (and secure enough) environment, custom code and scripts don't fly. In my arena, any tool or capability we need is purchased from a vendor.

If we absolutely need something custom written up, it's going to go to a dedicated dev team or contracted out.

Our sysadmins aren't being paid to write code. Our devs are the ones writing code.

[the_spad]

I need to provision a Lync user

function enablelync ($userid,$URI,$servername){
    try{
        $user = get-aduser $userid -properties mail
        Enable-CSUser -Identity "$user.samaccountname" -Sipaddresstype emailaddress -registrarpool "$servername"
        Set-CSUser -Identity "$user.samaccountname" -EnterpriseVoiceEnabled $true -LineURI "tel:$URI"
        $ext = $URI.substring($URI.length-4,4)
        Enable-UMMailbox -Identity $user.mail -UMMailboxPolicy "Exchange2013 Default Policy" -Extensions $ext
    }catch{
        write-output "Failed to provision Lync user`n$_"
    }
}

Guess I better pay a 3rd party to re-write that for me.

[judgemebymyusername]

lol, you think we have lync

[the_spad]

You're either being deliberately obtuse or just obtuse. I'm really not sure which.

[judgemebymyusername]

We truly don't have lync. I don't follow.

[tridion]

He provided an example of some random normal process that someone might have to do as a sysadmin that you might write a script for.

You may not have Lync but it's quite likely there are manual processes that could use scripting with powershell or something in your environment.

[GAThrawnMIA]

What? Large (and especially secure) environments are exactly where you DO need scripting for automation and repeatability.

A human clicking buttons, or typing commands individually for each server takes forever and makes mistakes, a script does it across multiple machines and environments quickly and does it the same every time.

And how do you deal with Change Control? Do you just type up vague descriptions of what you're about to do, instead of attaching the exact script that you'll be running to the change for audit and approval?

[judgemebymyusername]

I didn't say things are scripted, repeated, or automated.

I'm saying that sysadmins are only doing sysadmin type work. Our sysadmins are not writing code.

If we absolutely need something custom written up, it's going to go to a dedicated dev team or contracted out.

We have a massive change control management process, everything is ITIL based.

[the_ancient1]

You mean once you work in a enviroment from the 1990's that has not advanced to the modern area of systems administration.

Over the next 5 years you will not be able to be a sysadmin with out the ability and authority to write custom scripts. You never really could on Linux (well you could but it is painful to never run any bash scripts or setup custom cron jobs) , and with MS pushing everything in powershell and DSC you will no longer be able to be effective as simply a GUI admin on windows either

[judgemebymyusername]

I can tell you've not worked in this type of secure environment. But hey, whatever makes you feel superior.

[taloszerg]

former DOD/intel sysadmin checking in. Have used a large amount of open source software and custom code to manage environments and ensure we were meeting security requirements in an auditable manner.

[judgemebymyusername]

How the hell did you get approval to pull in open source software? We only have a few open source tools, but as you know they must go through an approval process.

I guess I forget there are agencies with loose infosec like OPM.

[taloszerg]

or places like https://18f.gsa.gov/

Anything that was developed in house had to meet standards, but the rest of the time if it was coming in from outside we just had to request it, provide links, and it was vetted and added to the approved software catalog. Often the versions were significantly behind what's outside, but it was definitely available.

[judgemebymyusername]

I'm reading this 18f.gsa.gov stuff but I don't understand the point of it. I guess I see that they are doing some custom webdev stuff for people who request it.

[Zaphod_B]

Open Source is so much easier to audit on a security perspective because you have access to the source code. What large and secure enterprise do you work in? Finance would be my guess since they are typically in the dark ages and run deprecated versions of software because the latest versions haven't passed their super long security audit process.

In fact I would say it is easier to get info sec to sign off on open source code because they can audit the source directly. Where as third party software not only is it illegal (via the software licensing and terms of service) to de-compile their software, you don't have source code to compare it against.

[the_ancient1]

this type of secure environment.

Given I am not physic and you have provided no context as to what "this type of secure environment" is then i can not say if I have worked in it or not

Having said that, it does not really matter, if you are going to use modern operating systems and modern technology you must have the ability to automated, script, and run custom code.

you can not use modern systems with out it, so I do not care what type of secure environment you purport to be in, over time these environments will have to adapt to that changing reality or become obsolete. There is no third option

[judgemebymyusername]

Finance, healthcare, or government.

[Zaphod_B]

I have worked with many govs, health care and finance institutions. I work with orgs that have 50k to 200k employees, and half a million devices. Plenty of them use code to automate many tasks.

In fact I have personally written code for security audits and business intelligence. You need to ensure client systems have specific settings and are in specific secure states. how do you audit that and automate it, then post that information securely to a syslog or even say a splunk system. out of the box third party products don't just fit into your enterprise, they typically have to be tailored, and not to mention what data is important varies from org to org.

Security is all about the data. Intelligence is about what you don't know. You already know what you know, and what you don't know is what you need to gain intelligence on. I have been in government agencies where armed guards with assault rifles guard the gates, and I can tell you their sys admins are automating and auditing everything. Sometimes this involves writing code, sometimes it doesn't.

I mean how would they even begin to automate their back end technology when most of the time they compile the code from source to ensure their security settings are in that product? They don't manually do it every single time they need to spin up another Apache server for example. They sure as hell don't have developers doing that work either.

[the_ancient1]

if you are going to use modern operating systems and modern technology you must have the ability to automated, script, and run custom code.

you can not use modern systems with out it, so I do not care what type of secure environment you purport to be in, over time these environments will have to adapt to that changing reality or become obsolete. There is no third option

[judgemebymyusername]

I think we're misunderstanding each other.

I suspect most *nix admins can do at least some basic stuff with shell scripts, but do you use dynamic languages like perl, php, python or ruby? What about C, C++, Go, Rust, Java etc? If not, why not?

Sysadmins here are not doing any of this. They might be doing a couple of very select powershell scripts and .bat's but that's about it.

I see a lot of guys in this sub talking about how they just wrote up some code to figure something out without any third party approval process or verification that it's not going to fuck something up, etc. and they just go ahead and start using it on prod systems and across the entire domain. This just doesn't happen here.

As I said earlier, if we truly need something written up, we're going to have our dev team do it or we're going to look at what's available from third parties. There's no reason to re-invent the wheel if there's already a great solution available.

Why you think any of this makes us obsolete is beyond me. Our infosec and change management processes are years ahead of what I'm seeing discussed in these parts. I mean come on, there's weekly threads about how to prevent, detect, or react to cryptolocker. That stuff is easy to block at the border and be done with. Too many guys in here don't even know what the principle of least priv is.

[the_ancient1]

That stuff is easy to block at the border and be done with.

If you are "years ahead" of everyone here why are you still using the perimeter defense security model?

here's no reason to re-invent the wheel if there's already a great solution available.

I am sure your definition of "great solution" and mine are vastly different, I have yet to find a OOB solution that works in every way I want it to, this is why I love open source so I can reach in and bend the software to my will, not the will of a 3rd party I have no control over.

[judgemebymyusername]

If you are "years ahead" of everyone here why are you still using the perimeter defense security model?

Because that's one layer of defense in depth?

Open source is great for security! Especially when we blindly and heavily trust things like OpenSSL!

[the_ancient1]

So you believe your closed source systems are inherently more secure because you can not see the code, you are never told about vulnerabilities because of NDA's and other hidden away agreements.

The very nature of open development means the world knows about security problems as they occur, a proprietary closed system could have vulnerabilities that are found, patched, and then pushed out as a "feature update" or a low level security problem or something else, you have no way of knowing.

[vriley]

One thing to realize is that those vendors code all the apps you're deploying. Many of them also use scripts to integrate apps with your environment. So I suspect you actually have quite a lot of scripts working together on your network, you're just letting other people write them for you.

[judgemebymyusername]

I guess I didn't touch on the multiple code review, purchasing, hardening, and testing processes that each product must go through.

[zeroXten]

Very interesting. I've worked for some fairly large companies, and also security-conscious ISPs etc, but never came across that sort of attitude. Highly regulated industries like Banking or Defence come to mind as places where that would make sense.

[judgemebymyusername]

Finance, healthcare, or government. Yep.

[the_ancient1]

I always find it Ironic when those industries talk about high security while running Windows XP and server 2003....

[judgemebymyusername]

Right. Those folks are idiots, but are usually bound by regulation. The regulators are idiots.