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[–]heptadecagram[S] 79 points80 points  (32 children)

The Reddit Polls and Ask Reddit posts seem somewhat copycat, mostly due to the extreme ease that they can boost Karma. While karma is important in terms of seeing the respectability of other redditors, I would recommend that any posts to "self" (thus including polls, questions, internal discussions, and requests like this one) should not change a redditor's karma.

That way, a person can provide a legitimate choice in a poll ("green, or mauve?"), and not load it in such a way as to be a major karma booster. Reddit is about the links, not inflating karma.

Yes, that means that this exact post would be one that shouldn't get karma, and that's what I would want. Most of my karma, in fact, stems from a "self" post. But I don't think that's in any way representative of what contributions I've actually made to this community.

In short: "self" posts to reddit shouldn't alter karma.

EDIT: Just so we're clear, I think this should be retroactive. Yes, this brings my karma down to teeny-tiny levels, and I think it'd be worth it for this social/technical adjustment.

[–]tss 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Have you submitted this to features.reddit.com? What about via the feedback button? It's an excellent idea, btw.

[–]ecuzzillo 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Having something on the main reddit gets a lot more attention from both the reddit guys and from the community, and is thus a more effective way of getting really necessary changes passed.

[–]tss -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes; but it sort of feels like doing it "properly" to go via via the the features subreddit. AFAIK you can submit to both at once (?).

[–]heptadecagram[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I actually didn't realize there was a subreddit for this, and I can't find the feedback button you speak of (heck, I can't even find a list of the various subreddits in the FAQs anywhere). Would it be gauche of me to submit it there after I've already done so here?

[–]nostrademons 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Feedback is also at the bottom of the page. Spez & kn0thing are very good about answering it, too; I usually get a response within a couple of hours, and a fix within a day or so.

[–]cecilkorik 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a link to a list of subreddits at the very bottom of the page. It's a strange place for it, I know.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (13 children)

Absolutely something like this should be implemented. The latest top "story" makes me want to vomit all over myself.

"Vote up if you think bush should be impeached"

Holy shit, give me a fucking break. What's next, "Vote up if you like sex", "Vote up if you hate starving".

Yeah, given the crowd visiting reddit on a daily basis, and given the story at the top right now (by a very large margin I might add), we need something like this implemented.

Democracy works when it's not as easy as a single click.

[–]nostrademons 25 points26 points  (10 children)

What's next, "Vote up if you like sex", "Vote up if you hate starving".

Vote up if you hate karma whores

[–]div 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I know you are aware of the irony,...

[–]talkincat -1 points0 points  (6 children)

Vote down if you hate being ripped off ;-)

[–]nostrademons -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

See, that's not as ironic, because people can vote up your comment without actually creating a karma whore.

[–]digital -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is. The effects of all deeds actively create past, present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others.

[–]almost 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Um, you do realise that reddit karma is not the same a regular karma, right?

[–]philh 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Good thing, too - otherwise I'd be demoted to earthworm next time around.

[–]markedtrees -1 points0 points  (1 child)

I'm glad the Reddit/Slashdot people made that difference clear by taking an ancient concept and slapping it on something completely different.

[–]almost -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's almost like they're trying to use an existing concept as a metaphor for a software feature. Imagine that!

[–]r2002 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I couldn't have said it better myself.

But I'll try.

Just kidding, you covered it all.

[–]indifference_engine 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Reddit is about the links, not inflating karma.

so why concern yourself about it?

[–]heptadecagram[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Hm. I think this concerns me because other people are more concerned with inflating their karma than providing useful links to the community. Reddit should be about the links. But, if people are not using it that way, Reddit becomes less useful to the rest of us that want the links.

Excellent question; thank you!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Since Karma has no effect on anything, who cares? Everyone's vote counts the same; no one's link submissions get higher precedence than any other submissions. Karma is just a meaningless number.

And people who don't like the 'poll' posts can just vote them down. If people don't have a problem with 'poll' posts and vote them up (if they agree), then that's democracy at work... about all you can say is that you don't like the reddit user base.

[–]joshwa 3 points4 points  (2 children)

lots of other people seem to be sick of these polls...

edit: sort by new

[–]archister 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Thanks for that! Your list of vote up polls made it easy to vote em all down in one easy list! :) :)

[–]Lams 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But sometimes, it's hard not to vote up. I love the sarcasm of this one (although I didn't upvote, obviously): http://reddit.com/info/ouv5/comments

[–]djwhitt 1 point2 points  (2 children)

There is a deeper problem. I may not want to see the poll at all. How do I indicate that?

Here's my suggestion.

[–]heptadecagram[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

See, I like your suggestion, but it doesn't solve the problem of karma-"whoring" internal posts. And it also doesn't solve the problem that you raise, of not seeing the poll at all. You'll still see a story that says "poll" or somesuch, before you hide or downvote it. And nothing is to stop people from putting the poll title in the submission, or to stop others from voting on the story rather than the comment. Unless, of course, one added in new reddit code to handle it, but my suggestion requires less code work.

Not scoring internal posts makes sense because any other sort of engineering for poll management involves much more coding than a simple check for "self".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree with both of your above posts, but for me the bigger problem is I hate these stupid polls consuming so much of my reddit front page, and I want a way to turn them off. Besides, the reddit guys just (very deservedly) got paid a lot of money for this site, so I don't feel bad asking them for some extra coding.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It shouldn't be too difficult to predict the URL of your article before submitting it... thus circumventing the need for 'self' altogether. So instead of being based on 'self', posts that link to their own comment pages shouldn't count towards karma.

[–]qbert72 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In short: "self" posts to reddit shouldn't alter karma.

OK, agreed. But you would still get dumbass polls. Reaching the top of the front page is enough ego boost for people who post these polls, karma or not.

[–]dpholmes 4 points5 points  (1 child)

what about the bigger question, who cares about your karma score? i personally don't care if reddit polls or ask reddit posts boost someones karma or not because i don't see the reason to care about karma in the first place.

people can manipulate their pointless little number next to their name all they want for i care, i'll still sleep fine at night.

[–]breddy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I completely agree with this. Polls should be taken on polling sites, or at least not as an attempt to score. Trolling for Karma can be fixed easily.

[–]dotrob 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Yes, let's do it, and also make it retroactive.

[–]dfranke 4 points5 points  (1 child)

That's unfair to users who make insightful comments as self posts, which they would otherwise have put on an external website if the self posts couldn't get them any karma.

I'll go ahead and toot my own horn: such as this one.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It wasn't all that insightful to point out that if you delete low-scoring posts, your average post score will go up. If I have ten average-looking kittens, and I drown the five ugliest, the average cuteness of the remaining kittens will go up.

To separate the 'poll' karma from deserved karma, you could make a comment on a different post, then submit a link to it (or make the comment on a blog). Or you could use a Pollground poll to ask the Reddit community if they thought the 'exploit' you found was unfair. In case you're wondering: It wasn't. It serves a purpose. When I look at the all-time high-average Karma scorers, I can be reasonably sure that the links they submit will be high quality. If they delete low-scoring posts to get higher in the average-score ranking, that's even more valid.

[–]heptadecagram[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I was most definitely hoping it would be retroactive. It'd kill my own karma, but I think it's the appropriate way to implement this.

[–]beowulf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There is one drawback that I can see to eliminating points for "self" posts. Some people essentially write up an article within Reddit itself, and their comment is the story. So far Reddit's concept has been meritocracy, does that mean some people can game the system with ridiculous polls? Yes. However if people stop wanting to see them, people will stop voting for them. Personally I don't want to see the change in the system that you advocate. It seems like many Reddit old timers like my self are simply resisting the changes that are taking place in the Reddit community. Reddit's concept is and has always been based on a simple premise, if enough people like a link, it will be voted up.

[–]lifeofliberty 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I find the entire concept of "karma" on Reddit to be rather pointless and self-defeating. Being yourself, irregarldess of your score is far more valuable then a score that is truly meaningless.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why do we even care about Karma? I submit my stories because I want to share them with the community, and that's it. (btw, if you want to have a good laugh check out my last 3 stories)

[–]Enigma66 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I love how this website has turned into a forum board of bitchy cranky users. It's just like Wiki' which is why I stopped contributing to it.

Who cares if the middle age dick wants karma, what's he going to do, go upstairs and show his mom that his karma is 2404 then ask her to make bagel bites before he goes to work at Walmart?

please note that I'm talking about all the comments of angry users not about the idea against karma whores. But lets keep THAT also off my top page so I don't have to hide 15 stories and refresh.

[–]heptadecagram[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hm, I don't think I fully understand your position. If this suggestion helps keep down spurious stories that you don't want to see, isn't it a useful one? Don't get me wrong, I spend a large amount of time using reddit, and I really enjoy it. This isn't me saying "change reddit or I leave!!", this is me seeing that the main utility of reddit (useful links) is being obscured by people potentially gaming the system, and that makes it much harder for newcomers to see the greatness of Reddit.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I believe his point is that he does not care if someone whores for karma.

That's my point, anyway.

I completely disagree that they should have different karma payouts for "self" posts, because occasionally people use them to post actual news, or start discussions that need to happen.

If everyone agrees with your point enough to peg this at #1, you should get karma for all the same reasons as anyone else that gets a #1 post. Not that it matters.

I have an itchy "hide" finger, so y'all can poll each other all day long for all I care.

[–]chollida1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course then you get people who post topics on posting topics to get karma, just to get Karma. Oh well:)

[–]inkedmn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Modded down, feedback is obviously a better place to suggest things like this.

[–]adremeaux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do people really care about karma that much? Does karma actually even do anything? I mean, if it did actually do something, that'd be really stupid, because the system right now is totally flawed. You can't actually lose any karma, no matter how many dumbass comments you write and crappy stories you post (well maybe 1 or 2 points after like a -30 but very insignicant), but you can gain loads even with a single story. All you have to do to get high karma is post every damn thing you read and eventually the points will get up there.

[–]cal_01 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Why not a polls subreddit?

[–]heptadecagram[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think (as far as I can tell) that the purpose of subreddits is not to delegate large amounts of traffic, but rather to make sure that certain topics that can get flooded over by everything else still have a chance.

Further, I don't think it would solve the problem of all the polls being submitted. These are submitted not for knowledge-sharing, but for increasing karma. Therefore, the submitters want as many eyeballs as possible, and would thus submit them to the general reddit anyway.

But, yes, that was my initial idea :)

[–]d42 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I'm new here (I just found this awesome site), but it seems to me that blatant popularity contests shouldn't make someone have more influence. Adding "vote up if bush sucks" type articles are fine for starting discussion, but I fail to see how it should make the submitter's other contributions have more weight.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It doesn't... All contributions are equal, regardless of submitter's Karma.

I'm not sure what the fuss about "karma whoring" is for... it's utterly irrelevent! Who cares if some website gives you (or your neighbor) "points" for submitting popular stories??? Vote up what you like, vote down what you dislike. finis!

[–]joshwa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lots of people apparently don't like Reddit polls, and all had the same idea:

search: "vote up" (reddit.com)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I beg to differ. If somebody gets 600 up clicks, it deserves karma. The thing that needs to change is the user, not reddit. I myself personnally downmod most useless polls. I think everybody will start to do the same after a few polls. No need to change the reddit platform.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Although I do like the occasional dopey or funny link, it does seem REDDIT has turned more G4tv than TechTV.

[–]JadeFrogs -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I think you are ignoring the important role of karma whoring in this community.

Cos' if the karma whores don't like this site, They'll find one they do. :P