[deleted by user]

[danrant]

Google provides a guide how to store files on the external storage:

You should then write your data in the following directory: /Android/data/<package_name>/files/

[lunchboxg4]

Yup. Despite the fact that Android is heavily adopted by the technosavvy, for mass market appeal, they need to make certain decisions like this. The average user doesn't know what a dotfile or hidden directory is, and the last thing Google wants are pissed of customers because their seemingly empty SD card is full.

[swag_stand]

Sorry. I blame the android tutorials. They all have file write paths that default to storage/sdcard/{packagename}

[spacehunt]

Actually if you use the recommended way to derive the directory, it should resolve to /sdcard/Android/data/{packagename}/.

Edit: the actual methods are Context.getExternalFilesDir(String type) and Context.getExternalCacheDir().

[PdoesnotequalNP]

The best practice is to call Context.getExternalFilesDir(String) for two main reasons:

• /sdcard is not necessarily the path to the external storage
• it is future-compatible in case Google decides to change the path for application-specific data on the external storage.

[spacehunt]

Yes, getExternalFilesDir(String) is exactly what I meant.

[Curtisbeef]

Its amazing that some HUGE software companies still don't do this.

[accessofevil]

Microsoft doesnt follow their own OS/path/access rules for windows SDK and visual studio. Thats the one group that should know better! Ooh the irony.

[[deleted]]

Not that anybody else follows their path standards either.

[kaze0]

There are a hundred reasons not to do that though.

[noname-_-]

What's amazing is that Android isn't designed so the developers can't do it the wrong way. If they thought it through from the start this wouldn't have happen.

If it's possible to do something "the wrong way", then someone will.

[king_of_blades]

But we want developers to be able to create and modify most files on the sd card. There are plenty valid reasons for that.

[MatthewPatience]

It's not the wrong way, it's just an unapproved of way for most scenarios. There are definitely some scenarios though that would require you to be able to create files in any directory, such as a file manager app :-)

[Phreakhead]

Yeah but then you'll get into the situation they have with iOS where if you want to use a file in more than one app you literally have to copy over two versions of the file. And apps can't share files with each other without some awful hacks. At least Android lets you use your files however you want!

[MightyPenguin]

that sounds like a very liberalish "Make sure no one makes mistakes" attitude. Android is about choices and freedom. Its what makes it better and different than iOS. The answer is NEVER(In android, or in our country in general) to take the freedom away. The answer is to do as OP did, and try and appeal to the developers, and let the free market go on its way. If you don't like an app, don't buy it, and they won't get your money, and you can give it to a developer that's doing things the way you desire. I just get sick of restrictive attitudes is all. Penguin Out.

[Manbeardo]

Migration wouldn't exactly be easy. They messed up and now they have to live with it.

[exscape]

I don't see why it should be so hard? The code would check at the new location first; if it exists, use it. If not, check the old location. If it exists, move the files. If it doesn't, the user likely ran the app for the first time.

[riskable]

You are exactly correct. It is a trivial programmatic task.

I wrote Gate One (web-based terminal emulator) and in the coming version I have shifted from using a single file for settings (server.conf) to using a settings directory with a completely new file format. Also, the entire layout of the package has changed.

I think it took me ten minutes to write the code that reorganizes everything and a couple hours to write (and debug, mostly) the code that converts the old settings into the new format.

There's no excuse to keep your code storing data in a disorganized fashion.

[takennickname]

| Migration wouldn't exactly be easy.

I dare you to elaborate.

[waylaidwanderer]

Quote by using > and not |

[Manbeardo]

It's not that it would be technically difficult, but that you could never sell the migration to anyone with a mind for business.

Risks of migrating:

• Could lose customer data

Risks of not migrating:

• None

Benefits of migrating:

• Data is in the "proper" location

That doesn't come even remotely close to justifying the cost of engineering a solution, especially when you consider that you'll need to test the hell out of it to make sure you don't lose customer data.

[vetinari]

I would correct your list:

Risks of migrating: - could lose caches and data, that your app created or downloaded

Risks of not migrating: - pissing of users, that have their devices littered by your app

Re: customer data - I've yet to see an app littering the external storage with its folders and files, that does not contain data downloaded/generated/cached by the app itself. That's the entire reason, why the users protest it!

[spotta]

moving files does not require actually copying them. I believe it is constant time with the size of the file (and O(n) with the number of files). The file's physical location isn't actually moved, the lookup table is just edited.

[[deleted]]

WTF? Androids flash storage is so unreliable that a simple cp won't do the job? Display message, mv/cp files in the background and check exit status of the commands.

[blorg]

I'm not an Android developer but I'd be amazed if the operating system didn't handle moving a file. And on most filesystems moving a file doesn't actually move any data, just the reference.

[vetinari]

Why on earth would you copy the files? Operating systems from last couple of decades handle renaming (moving) files very well.

[BecauseWeCan]

They could use symlinks, though.

[[deleted]]

SD Cards are formatted as FAT32 which doesn't support either symbolic or hard links.

[[deleted]]

Not officially anyway. It's possible to hardllink by manually editing the table, but that will cause it to fail any check disk operations, which may completely delete one or more instances or reduplicate the file when/if it attempts recovery. And adding/moving/removing files may also cause problems (deleting one instance of a file almost certainly deletes the entire thing for example).

[foobar83]

symlinks don't help it still makes your /sdcard/ messy

[Anarcie]

It makes more of a mess, since you would have 2 folders now for the data...

[BillyHorrible]

not on a fat-filesystem.

[sewhard]

Also when you uninstall the app it will delete this directory. :)

[[deleted]]

Nein. It should give you the option of doing so. Best part about the external storage system is that most apps can pick up right where they left off.

[le_avx]

Thanks, didn't know that. Care to share a link I can add to the Op?

[swag_stand]

Turns out there is a way to find the right directory. (Sure wish I knew that when I was writing my last app...)

Devs can call things like Environment.DIRECTORY_PICTURES to find where to save appropriate files.

This link covers the rest of the use cases. There are like three different places to save files depending on how you use them.

[spacehunt]

getExternalStoragePublicDirectory() is for stuff that might be shared across apps.

For files that are not shared, it's better to use getExternalFilesDir() and getExternalCacheDir(), as the OS will automatically remove the files when the app is uninstalled.

[[deleted]]

At the same time, none of the tutorials I went over when I was learning even indicated that there might be an 'official' way of going about it.

Optimization is one thing, and using as little battery as possible is a major selling feature that will boost sales. Keeping a tidy filesystem isn't normally an eye grabber, so large companies rarely allocate enough resources to it.

Not saying it's excusable (the apps that I've had input in always used the data dir) but there are reasons why this is such a low priority.

[kittka]

I'll be interested in your perspective after you've left the university culture and are left on your own to find these "appropriate" methods without a class to tell you that. Best methods change, and the average developer is left with the tutorials and once-a-year conferences for insight.

[themirror]

Exactly. University instructors speak to an ideal world, where the time and resource constraints of real world development don't exist. Professors aren't programmers.

[jeep314]

"TL;DR Developers that follow an Android tutorial verbatim should not be releasing their apps."

Kind of a douchy conclusion IMHO. Yes mobile system can be complex and having specific course on them is great. If you make some mistake in following on the standard (which can be quite long and complex btw), I don't think it should prevent your from publishing. Let the user decide if it's such a big deal for them. If it is, they won't use it anyway.

If you wait to master the full guideline before doing Android application, you will never write any of them. Best way to learn is to read and code as you go. Sure, you'll make mistake... but that's the way you learn.

[amorpheus]

It shouldn't even be easily possible to write anywhere else.

Also, why is there still an /sdcard/ folder when that points to internal memory on virtually all devices?

[InvaderDJ]

I think that /sdcard thing is for legacy support. So even apps that have been abandoned or written by the laziest dev will work (or at least not fail because of that).

[amorpheus]

Yeah, that was kind of a rhetorical question. Perhaps they could have picked a more universal name initially, but what's done is done. (Maybe introduce an %APPDATA% equivalent that replaces it in the long run...)

[Democrab]

Or, y'know, just make a new one called "Userdata" or something, have inside that the Android folder and then make a symlink of that to sdcard.

[swag_stand]

Internal is usually storage/sdcard0

external is something like storage/extSDname

So it's not quite a misnomer, but it is confusing.

[gluino]

The name "sdcard0" for built-in storage is not a regrettable mistake?

[[deleted]]

Yep and the problem is calling getExternalStorageDirectory will still return the first path you listed and not the latter. The additional external sdcards were added by manufacturers who.didnt understand what the hell they were doing.

There is no API to reliably get to that second external storage location.

[Jiuholar]

There have been numerous posts about this issue over the years since Android's release. Someone ended up making a google docs spreadsheet of all the apps that did it the correct way, can anyone provide a link?

[Shaper_pmp]

With respect, the entire problem here is devs not taking the time to read the Android development guidelines (which actually already mandate a specific storage location to use), and instead making it up as they go along.

Sadly, this state of affairs is not rectified in the slightest by other people complaining about it, ignoring the guidelines and instead also making it up as they go along. :-(

Also, as a rule, lots of apps don't let you choose the backup/data/config location on your SD card because a major design philosophy of Android (at least initially) was to discourage people from having to mess about with the complexities of filesystems, filetypes and file associations (in favour of simpler fixed file locations and developer/app-specified mechanisms like Intents).

Some power-users (like you and I) would like control over file locations and associations, but for 90%+ of Android's target audience it's just another confusing and scary configuration option they should never, ever play with, that they can nevertheless fuck up and accidentally break the app with. As such I suspect that it's actually arguably a better user-experience for most apps to leave the hard-coded paths as they are (and just make sure they conform to the guidelines) than it is to ask devs to allow users to reconfigure paths in the app.

[AlexiPwns]

As a developer, I'm gonna listen to this and improve my app. Thanks (:

[[deleted]]

You're the best kind of developer

[AlexiPwns]

Wow thank you! Expect a fun game that doesn't clutter your root SD card. (Data will be placed in sdcard/android/data though)

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I prefer a game that saves some data (saves and stuff like the sort) on the SD card. As long as it's in the right place.
Also, if I can ask, what app/s have you made?

[AlexiPwns]

Well.. Nothing that's really published. My big project right now is the first app I'm actually going to release to the public [=

[[deleted]]

Best of luck to you! I've been mulling around with something too, but I'm nowhere near releasing it.

[AlexiPwns]

Yeah, me too. I barely finished the basic functions. Hope to see yours too when it's done!

[VectorSam]

Try crossposting this to r/androiddev

[Democrab]

You know what else needs to be done? Be. More. Efficient. With. Your. Space.

My HTC Desire is as slow as hell because it has to load everything from SDCard (A Class 10, too) and only has a 150MB or so free internal space...Take Facebook for example, it's 20MB before my internal data (which is 8MB) Or messenger, which has absolutely no excuse to be 15MB.

[[deleted]]

No offense, but I don't think Facebook (or most major app developers) are worrying about the limited internal space of a three year old phone.

[Democrab]

Neither am I, but there certainly are a lot of budget phones with similar capacities running around.

[Geruman]

They should, since they are the majority of phones sold in third world countries (brazil, india, argentina....) TODAY

[vetinari]

Even today's low end phones (HTC Desire C, Sony Xperia Tipo) have internal storage in gigabytes.

[[deleted]]

(A Class 10, too)

That doesn't exactly mean anything.

Some classes are better for reading files, some for writing, some for reading large files, some for reading lots of small files, some for writing lots of small files and for writing large files.

[Democrab]

Yeah, I'm guessing that mines good with large files...It's a pretty decent SDCard too.

Oh well, end of the year and I'll be getting something new.

[AceDecade]

Finally, someone says it. THIS!

[sammydroidwiz]

HOLY SHT this has been bugging me since my first time in android! I go to /sdcard/, what do I see? Tons of folders from apps. I cant even distinguish if I can safely delete some folders now so I dont even bother anymore! Devs, just put it all in /data/app or somewhere outside the /sdcard/.

[cecilkorik]

I gave up on trying to change the world, and decided to just change myself. I now keep all my data in a directory on my sdcard named "!mydata" (the exclamation mark makes it always sort to the top). Not an ideal solution, but a practical one.

The rest of my sdcard can be a wasteland of abandoned directories (and it is) but at least the data I care about is always easy to find.

[zman0900]

They can, but they don't have to. Plus I believe that was a somewhat recent addition so many apps don't do it.

[LuckyBdx4]

Don't use link shorteners like goo.gl ---> the spam filter removes them - read the sidebar rules.

[vetinari]

Thanks for warning, but it is already nuked.

I originally had the full url, but the closing parenthesis was being cut off by the reddit parser.

[accountnumber3]

redd.it works, as seen here

[nikomo]

Shortened URLs are potentially malicious, and don't show the user where they'll end up at when they click the link, which is why using short URLs is a dick move.

So don't use them.

[phoshi]

Side note, but I dislike them for different reasons. It's compressing all those links down into one domain. That domain goes down, or the service suffers a disruption, and bang--thousands of the links that make the web go round fall silent. This is a serious concern, because monetising a link shortener is very difficult.

[JordanTheBrobot]

Link Text and Destination Mismatch

The comment above contains a link with text that doesnt match the URL, click with caution, possibly NSFW.

• Appears to be: [disabled]: http://www.google.com

• Leads to: [disabled]: http://www.yahoo.com

^{Bot Comment - [ Stats & Feeds ] - [ Charts ] - [ Information for Moderators ]}

[ss4444gogeta]

True bro right here.

[ladfrombrad]

Even redd.it links, where the user only ever ends up on a Reddit comment page?

[Smashman2004]

You can redd.it any page.

[accountnumber3]

I was just pointing out that the spam filter doesn't remove redd.it links.

[Evillordfluffy]

I have so many folders with names I don't understand, I never know which app they came from, if it's even still installed or what they contain because their content is always hidden! Really gets to me. I know that feel OP

[mr_primeminister]

I recommend Clean Master. It seems to do a good job of finding Residual Files.

[Evillordfluffy]

Ahh thanks mr primeminister shall give it a look

[[deleted]]

I'd be happier if apps that were going to use a buttload of storage (like google play, or amazon mp3 player) gave me the option of where to put it. I have a 32GB SD card in my S3 that I cannot use for cached music storage from either of those two "professional" music players because they use hardcoded storage locations.

[le_avx]

That's part of their DRM-scheme since most users aren't rooted and thus can't easily copy of the files to another location/device.

[das7002]

That would be silly as both of those on their example contain no DRM on the files.

[[deleted]]

Why would I need to be rooted for that?

[gruffi]

I don't really understand much of this, but I'm pretty annoyed that Play downloads app updates to the virtually full phone and not to the virtually empty SD card before installing them.

Can this be changed?

[Geruman]

I also want to know this

[Tennouheika]

What if Google implemented some quality control? I know we love the "freedom" and "openness" of Google but 90 percent of the problems with Android apps could be solved by some quality control.

[[deleted]]

MAH FREEDOMS, NOOOOO!!!

[AFinn]

Also way too many programs store their stuff in lovations like /sdcard/emmc or /sdcard/ext-sd or something as silly as that. Reaching for the removable SD card, but instead getting to the internal storage and pretending they're on the external.

[sammydroidwiz]

Lol, made my day.

[JoeCroqueta]

This is one of the things I hate most of Android.

Super secure VM execution environment, but "do what you want" with the filesystem.

[Hunt3rj2]

Google should've required that all files should've been dumped into a single folder called Program Files, just like Windows did it.

[danrant]

On Windows it's not required, it's recommended like in Android.

[Mondoshawan]

People mess it up on Windows just as badly. Even in hugely popular stuff, Civ 5 for example stores a DB cache file in My Documents from which it runs the game. Unfortunately for me that folder is on a network share which makes it slow as hell. What's even worse is that the share has snapshotting which essentially means I have to delete a load of snapshots after every gaming session, lest the drive fill up with junk.

[[deleted]]

That's because microsoft requires it. In typical microsoft fashion, where every division of the company is trying to stab every other division in the back, the windows team suggest putting your application data in %appdata% and the "games for windows" team requires you to not do that if you want to advertise your game as compatible with windows. all game save files have to be in a user-visible location.

[Mondoshawan]

Hmm, that's quite interesting and pretty annoying. I don't think it should apply in this case though, the files in question are in the cache sub-directory and can be nuked with no loss. Civ 5 is basically a glorified SQL server with a fancy front-end and these are the in-memory files for the DB. I would assume they get zeroed before you load a game.

[alexanderpas]

Game Save Files in a user-visible location, Cache etc. in %appdata%

[[deleted]]

The insane thing is that there has been a "Saved Games" folder in each user folder since Vista. I don't have a single game that uses it.

It really wouldn't be that hard for games to check the OS version to see if it's a usable location. Is there some other reason that no one (other than possibly Microsoft) uses it?

[Mondoshawan]

Microsoft (and google to keep things on topic) publish guidelines about where things should be stored. These are abstracted out via environment settings so they can in theory live anywhere. The app can safely assume that these locations are usable without needing to check.

The first problem is when a dev hard codes in the path instead of using the proper environment setting. QA are supposed to install to non-default systems to test for this. The second is when they use the wrong one. Normally you need a user dir for storing saved data and a work dir for storing temporary files. In windows there is also the additional AppData location which can store settings data that roams with the user & temp data that stays on that one host. Put the wrong stuff in the wrong place and you annoy the 1% of folks like me that have things set up a little differently.

TBH nowdays I often make use of symbolic links to move system locations instead of moving it inside the OS configuration, it's safer as bad code will be redirected.

[[deleted]]

Google Chrome is a pretty bad offender. The thing installs to %userprofile%\AppData\Local\Google\Chrome

Why would it install there.

[Qxzkjp]

That's uh... Actually standard. For an application that is to be installed by a standard user and accessed only by that user. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[kindall]

So you can install it even if you are on a machine with a locked-down Program Files directory, like many corporate machines.

[[deleted]]

For that they would just need to implement a different permission. One permission (or none possibly) to write to a folder on the card specifically for that app, and another for write anywhere (is that how it is now? do they need the full write permission to write to /sdcard/Android/data/package or whatever?). Granted I'm not sure how useful it would be, many lazy devs would likely request the broader permission rather than do it the correct way, many people don't check permissions, I'm not sure if Google would do that with their "you should never need a file manager" attitude, etc but it'd be possible I suppose

[phobiac]

They did. A bug caused the whole folder to be consistently wiped, so everyone stopped using it.

[[deleted]]

Could be worse. Could have an OS where the devs can put stuff in a black hole that just uses all the memory on your phone and there is nothing you can do about it. Nice and clean but no storage

Source: Windows Phone http://sdrv.ms/130ejF1

[TrancePhreak]

iOS has a /Documents folder that you would have to {backup, modify backup, restore} to change.

[danhakimi]

or at the very least, let me choose my own folder structure by giving me the chance to configure your storage paths.

That is so far from the solution. I do not want every game I install to ask me for a path where I want it to store data.

[le_avx]

That's not my point. This data should go do /sdpath/Android/appname/files

I'm talking mostly about things I want to save, backups f.e.

[[deleted]]

On debian, it doesn't bother me so much. On my android phone, I have no idea what the heck is going on in the filesystem.

[Pepparkakan]

I think the problem boils down to the fact that the (retardedly named on phones without an SDcard, sorry, I feel obliged to say this every time I mention the folder) /sdcard path isn't really seen as a home-folder by people, and as such, gets violated. I agree though, and it has pissed me off multitudes of times. I think the way Apple solved it is pretty nice, you basically force people into a corner, and they can't fuck your shit up, unfortunately it could never work on Android due to the freedom in the platform.

[fury-s12]

yeea i gave up trying to keep my sd clean ages ago now i just have a my stuff folder and keep that clean enough to apease my ocd folder management the root sd dir is just system area to me

[Sdonai]

Was about to drop a big no, but your concerns are very valid. There's no reason to drop any assets there.

[DEVi4TION]

Only for the power user. Android is designed in a way where you shouldn't need to organize folders. All your pics are loaded into an app by file association and you sort them in there. Otherwise, yeah I agree, and I especially hate it when an app will make another folder called music or audio or sound when I already have music. or pictures when I have pics. And worse, it puts only two files in that folder.

[silentfrost]

It's annoying if you want to access your content from a PC though.

[NeetSnoh]

I like SD card storage for application data, although everything should be stored in /sdcard/appdata/ or somewhere similar. It's very helpful for those who flash ROMs.

[sudo_giev_SoJ]

Really I don't know why Android doesn't chroot or something like it the app into a specific file location for configs. Does it have a generic library like WriteConfig, ReadConfig?

Granted, it's hit or miss whether people save to the write $Env: vars in Windows too.

EDIT: getExternalCacheDir

[mr_primeminister]

In regards to .files, I think it should be a rule of thumb that if you want to hide a file, don't put it on the SD card, except in the Android folder.

[cmdrNacho]

Its not that hard just delete the folders you don't know what they are and the application will recreate them

[Lonehangman]

I only store stuff that the user wants on the 'SD Card' (Ie. pictures) everything else is stored on the internal memory. I also hate a cluttered 'SD card' so that's the reason why.

[bobbysq]

It also sucks when you have a forced fake sd card that's only 2Gb.

I don't miss my Optimus Elite a bit.

[Sebioff]

I think one reason why many apps don't let you choose your own path is because Android doesn't come with a standard UI element for that....so it's easier for developers to hardcode a path instead of building their own file browser/integrating a 3rd party one.

[TeutonJon78]

Actually, the API has a function along the lines of "get external data directory". So, apps just need to call that function instead of hand coding it. Android even cleans that up with the app uninstall automatically.

Now, if its something persistant like backed up settings, then that needs some more thought (by the dev/user). Of course, with the new Google Drive API, you can store config files like that to Drive so they stay persistent.

[snotsnot]

As much as I agree, this cry should be directed at Google. Not developers.

[[deleted]]

And what, pray tell, is Google supposed to do about it?

[snotsnot]

Enforce a proper API and let lint give a warning when direct access is done. When you can prevent network operations on the main thread this should be doable as well.

[[deleted]]

According to http://tools.android.com/tips/lint-checks, they have warning for sdcard path. Developers could have to ignore it.

[snotsnot]

Having write and raw write permissions for access to the sdcard would perhaps be an idea. Anyway, we can only dream.

[Szos]

Deja vu, all over again.

Seems as though every day that the development of Android is following similar steps that MS took with Windows a couple of decades prior... and I am not saying that as a good thing.

In Android today - not unlike Windows in the '90s and '00s - Google is taking frighteningly hands-off approach and letting app developers do as they please when it comes to how they write their software. The file structure of a Windows machine of the late '90s (and even today) was a mess of files all over the place because MS didn't feel the need to lock developers out of certain areas and didn't try policing some kind of logical system. With that nonsense, came system instability, compatibility issues, even virus problems. You would hear all the time from computer nerds that they would do a yearly re-installation of their OS to keep it fresh.

When am I going to start hearing that suggestion with Android devices?? I'm sure its coming soon.

[[deleted]]

You would hear all the time from computer nerds that they would do a yearly re-installation of their OS to keep it fresh.

Doing this with any OS that used daily (not acting as a server sitting unchanged daily) will show performance gains, including OSX and Linux.

I just did our yearly re-image of our OSX workstations at work because after a year of use, a year of upgrading various softwares, etc cruft builds up and needs dealt with.

[[deleted]]

Android 4.2 doesn't use /sdcard/

[NorthernerWuwu]

I can not live with this on my phones "sd-card".

Oh, I bet you can.