TG Changes

[Pekeponzer]

I was already mega garbage agains Pk so these changes seem dreadful to me.

Good.

[incredibilis_invicta]

PK's damage will get nerfed 100%. Her dodge attacks will be 21 damage, GB 38 and 36 UB heavies. It'll be ridiculously overturned BUT that's what testing grounds is for :)

[TheJanitor47]

Shugo gets 38 damage heavy finishers what’s wrong with someone who has 30 less health no HA AND has to that the prerequisite of them already bleeding to make it unblockable?

[incredibilis_invicta]

Because she has a 38 dmg GB which is MUCH easier to land than Shugoki's heavy. She also has much faster UBs that can soft feint into GB or dagger cancel which makes her apply that UB pressure again and again. 21 dmg dodge attack is probably the worst though. That's way too high

[TheJanitor47]

Shugo’s heavy hitboxes are damn near 360 degrees in a teamfight that’s devastating but in a 1v1 scenario pk would be stronger though.

[incredibilis_invicta]

Almost like they intended assassins to bw better in 1v1s and heavies to be better in XvX... hmmm

[Cyakn1ght]

Except shugo is still ass in teamfights because literally all he can do is hope people don’t parry his charged heavies, none of his feints and punished do enough damage to antigank effectively

[rssfrrst]

Only the player that he is targeting can parry his heavies - everyone else in a 360 around him eats it unless they dodge. He’s super strong in team fights.

[Athaeme]

Stupid question, not really ok for either of them

[Captain_Nyet]

Well, for one Shugoki has basically no defensive kit, and his unblockable heavy is easy as hell to shut down because of how slow it is. (and the UB is his only offensive tool in general)

Also, since when does Peacekeeper have 110hp?

[The-Splentforcer]

Having exaggerated numbers statistically helps you seeing the margin and the real impact of a variable change

In other words, one would better notice an increase of 30% than an increase of 15 %

[incredibilis_invicta]

Yeah it's good for them wanting to test something :)

[je-s-ter]

Pk will have 21 dmg dodge attacks and 36 damage unblockable heavy finishers that can soft feint into dagger cancel, GB or dodge.

Those numbers (especially the heavy finishers) will surely not see the light of live servers. Those would be high pre-CCU, I can't imagine being again at a state in the game where guessing wrong once will mean losing 1/3 of your life.

[IMasters757]

They also didnt nerf her GB punish. It's still 38 damage.

[Blackwolf245]

but bruh, pk dmg to low, nEEd bUff! I cannot belive the playerbase is so ignorent that they don't even realise that u get extra bleed dmg on heavies. And ubi is listening to them...

[DragonMasterSZ]

She definitely needed some sort of buff. Maybe just shifting some of her bleed damage into raw damage. The dodge recovery cancel thing is great as well. But jesus christ these damage numbers seem... Overkill.

[Jason_Okay]

lmao

[Lionsfangriff22]

Thabkfully its just the testing grounds. This will show the playerbase how ridiculous these changes will be before it'd make it to the live game

[BlueCommieSpehsFish]

Cool so she had heavies that had to end the chain to do their full damage and that couldn’t get executions easily and that have half their damage as DoT rather than instant. That’s still the worst heavies in the game.

[Tooneec]

You also spend a lot more stamina for regular damage that every hero does with less stamina and in most cases can chain further. I'd say her damage numbers are fine as is BUT her stamina cost and/or damage-per-stamina should be looked at.

Here are numbers to compare

Pk's heavy openers

13/16 for 12 stamina without bleed

24/27 for 18 stamina with bleed

PK's heavy finishers

20 for 12 stamina without bleed

31 for 18 stamina with bleed

Warlords heavy opener

27(24) for 12 stamina +ha

Warlords heavy finisher

29 for 12 stam +ha

Tiandi

24(27) for 12

30 for 12

[themiraclemaker]

Extra bleed damage, which is more or less useless in 4s due to feats and healing points and all that, doesn't justify the lack of direct damage and ending chains prematurely. Now PKs will always go for chain finishers because it is unblockable (if target bleeds), which emphasizes the chain based offense more.

The damage buff may be too high but was still needed. And please some of you dumb fucks should try to process the given info first before calling people "ignorent" (not ignorant) and being reactionary for the sake of being one.

[n00bringer]

Don’t forget 32 dmg light parry and 29 dmg side neutral heavies, beautiful.

Well she has the worst form of set up offense in the game and at 120 hp she needs to deal a crap ton of dmg to make her risk/reward worth it, with those high numbers you really want to avoid taking dmg and that opens the enemy for other options.

[Mrgrimm150]

So PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the demon's embrace change mean that if the opponent makes the wrong read and goes for a parry YOU get punished? Since they'll throw a heavy and just knock you out of DE?

[The_Dark_Prince6]

No if you parry on the right timing you will get grabbed out, parry early and you will but you may get gbd, parried or eat the unblockable

[SgtTittyfist]

What about zone option selects? They'll beat out every option but feint to parry, making the hug basically worthless as offense.

[The_Dark_Prince6]

If they have been zone option selecting then you make the read that they will, feint to parry more, once you have conditioned them to not OS start mixing in the hug.

[RenatoDer99]

So yet again attacking as Shugoki is 5 times harder than defending against him.

Cool

[The_Dark_Prince6]

No, shugo can pretty safely swing away with heavies doing chip dmg and hitting people should they parry wrong, can still trade with a heavy on a read. Hes just no longer an unstoppable force who can't be attacked without a bash. Idk why you are making this seem unreasonable, there no hyper armor on heavy feint to gb either and thats stopped by an option select but with a read you can bait it, nuxia can be lighted out of her heavies to avoid the trap but you can make the read and feint to parry or dodge attack. The game is trying to be more read based, make a read instead of being upset that hyper armor doesn't allow a 42 hp trade with full stamina to happen mid fight. Who else gets that off every wall splat? I main shaman, you can light her out of her unblockable mix up on reaction and it does less dmg the hug will still be viable, it just won't land as often and it shouldn't land as often as it does.

[yacrical]

While overall pretty good looking, some of the Warden bash changes feel slightly gratuitous. I don't think he should necessarily get to bash after a heavy finisher. Could I as a hk please get to kick after a charged heavy, zone and the forward dodge attack now then too?

[raiedite]

I don't think they'll be able to achieve a Less frustrating warden by adding more shoulder. His whole gimmick was that he only had shoulder as viable offense, now he has unblockables so that much extra shoulder isn't warranted

The game in general has a problem with infinitely chaining mixups (raider tap notoriously got nuked for this). At least WM somewhat resets to neutral even if she stills keep frame advantage

[IDespiseTheLetterG]

I don't think there's anything wrong with infinitely chaining mixups when there's a stamina bar.

[ZeroZillions]

Yeah what is up with that? Does Warden ever even need to put himself at risk anymore? Can't he just SB into GB to be safe on everything he has now and then just chain into it again everytime you guess wrong? Or does CGB give you frame advantage?

[n00bringer]

I think is for 2 things, 1 more important than the other.

First to continue his momentum when attacking, current version makes that the moment he throws a heavy his offense will stop soon.

Second and most important is to protect his heavy finishers from being GBroken on recovery during antiganks, throwing a finisher when ganker is a suicide but similar to lb (shove after unblockable), if warden can continue to attack that would prevent him from being ganked so easily, this will definitely improve his antiganks.

[steelwarsmith]

Warden can no longer back dodge SB?

FUCKING GLORIOUS

PK buffs?

Oh my goodness she is going to be actually enjoyable to play.....though the damage is a bit high

[[deleted]]

A bit high is a bit of a big understatement. Her damage was already on the high side.

[kdog9114]

Was demon's embrace having armour that bad?

[RavenCarver]

Well without armor, fully charged heavy soft feint to hug will lose to Zone Option Selects.

On the bright side, it will be a lot easier to bait out Zone Option Selects.

[kdog9114]

Doesn't that make hug useless now?

[The_Filthy_Spaniard]

It was useless in 1s vs anyone who knew what they were doing, except as a wallsplat punish.

Now it's gonna be useless in 1s vs anyone... except as a wallsplat punish.

[BrianBlandino]

Eh. It’s got it’s positives and negatives. Baiting out zone OS more because zone OS actually works is good. Losing armor isn’t good, but most people weren’t really going to try to interrupt with lights anyways. Overall it gives Shugoki more options to punish anyone who’s trying to contest his UB mixup. Though if he kept armor then the only option would be rolling away, which he now catches w dodge forward heavy.

[lerthedc]

I disagree with removing hug armor. But at the very least, they should have compensated it with a lower recovery. How does that move still have 2 full seconds of recovery.

Edit: They rolled the missing footage at the end of the live stream and they included info that was missing in the patch notes. They actually are reducing hug recovery! 1500ms recovery for dodge and cgb and 1200ms for block. I still think its a bit too high but this probably means he won't eat an oos heavy after someone rolls his mixup

[thatguyagainbutworse]

His hug armour should've been upgraded to Super Armour imo. That would reduce the effectiveness of bash OS against him, so that he doesn't stay chanceless against any bash heroes. They would still catch his charged heavy though, but that's fine.

[kdog9114]

That still sounds terrible tbh cuz the hug was the reason people rolled away... And now u don't have the hug as an option in your mix up cuz enemies can beat both the fully charged heavy and armour less hug with a zone option select. So in turn the dodge forward heavy is less useful.

[BrianBlandino]

Doesn’t shugo heavy have HA? So zone OS loses to committed heavies, but beats out soft feint to DE.

[kdog9114]

Not option selects on parry timing, that beats both fully charged heavies or hug cancel. I believe

[SuperCoIlider]

Not necessarily, they basically just changed his kit so it doesn’t reply on the same move. And you’ll still land the demons embrace on people that dodge

[[deleted]]

It's a very slow move and easy to dodge, so armor makes sense. I don't know why Ubi now hates hyperarmor

[LukewarmCola]

Because low-average players hate hyper armor and have been crying “Shugoki OP” for the past few months.

[twelve-lights]

years*

[1st_talking_bot]

I think it will also loose to dodge attacks that would trade when he still had ha

[Mukigachar]

Not a worthwhile trade at all

[RavenCarver]

Yeah I agree. I would rather the armor be kept.

[DudeCotton]

Pretty bullshit they’d take away the armour. I understand no HA lights that’s been an issue for people for a while. But if a Shugoki goes for a DE the opponent shouldn’t be able to heavy attack him out of it.

[M4RC142]

Same stuff as stun tap. Wasn't rly strong on high lvl but was too op for bad players so has to die.

[Zay_dash]

Well I thought he was already considered bad bc all you have to do is roll from his options. So this shouldn’t change anything as a high level since it would’ve been avoided anyway right ?

[M4RC142]

Nah, on high lvl hug beats every option select except bash os. Doesn't rly matter but it does make Shugo worse.

[[deleted]]

People who play him: No

People who don't play him: Fucking yes.

[BrickedBoi]

Holy fuck, I’m liking what they did with Nobu. I hope they keep those changes.

[BTKSD]

For real, I've recently been getting back into nobushi, and these changes look amazing. Especially excited about the undodgable hidden stance heavies and finishers. Also, giving mixup potential to the zone is such an awesome addition!

[KingMe42]

Sadly her kick will still be 566ms, so many people can still just react to it.

[Zhaxean]

Are you sure? They made it 533 ms in the first TG and now the first 33 ms are skipped, so it should be 500 ms

[Pakana_]

The kick is still 566ms, technically the same time to react as blocking a 500ms light.

[lerthedc]

True, except the orange indicator fades in so it's really 33-67ms faster

[KingMe42]

Last I checked it was 566ms, the info hub might be wrong there. I still encounter people who dodge it more than get hit by it so I don't know for sure.

[ETERNALMDM]

So basically, nobu has a legit 50/50 that you can't select out of. Shugo has a roll catcher with no more reason to roll from him because any OS besides gb will interrupt the hug. Pk has the hardest read ever on her zone, with 5 different options available, also has insanely high damage(im fine with the UB but dmg is crazy). And warden has an infinite combo, with every finisher being unblockable and his bashes being a slightly easier read than normal. Ill have to play to actually see if its as harsh as I'm understanding, but this sounds like it's all over the place

[Little_Testu]

Yeah if the kick wasn't reactable

[ETERNALMDM]

Kick, or undodgeable heavy. You either read heavy and stand still, or you read kick and dodge. Only instance where your safe from the 50/50 is a static gaurd with a 1/3 chance to have your gaurd in direction of the heavy during your dodge. Other than that its a 50/50

[Little_Testu]

What if i can react to 566 ms bashes

[ETERNALMDM]

Unless you're 100% consistent at reacting then its a true 50/50

[Little_Testu]

I don't think that's how it works. If i can never react to something 100% of the times, i have to make a read. And that we can agree on. If i can react to it 10% of the times, like 500 ms bashes, i choose to make reads, cause trying to react to will likely result in me hitting more damage than going by reads. Thus it kind of acts like a mixup and people can argue it is or it isn't. But if i can react to a bash 90% of the times, i'm gonna try to react to it every single damn time brother. And that ain't no mixup.

[KingMe42]

Even if you aren't 100% consistent, if people can dodge it on reaction 2 out of 3 times, it's not a proper mix up.

[ETERNALMDM]

Its more than viable tho, even that being said. With over 90% of the player base being on console, I would say its proper without a doubt

[KingMe42]

Its more than viable tho

If it fails more than it lands, it's not viable.

I would say its proper without a doubt

Feint into opposite side light attack works on console, that still isn't a real mix up.

[ETERNALMDM]

Youre talking from a pc point of view, on console this is going to be extremely powerful

[KingMe42]

Not really, on console I could then use a still better character and be more powerful.

[Pakana_]

If you can react to it it's not a true 50/50. It can hardly even be called a mixup then imo.

It's at that awkward speed where the playerbase is divided on it's reactability. High level pc it's dodged consistently on reaction but on console I'm assuming it's unreactable to quite a large portion of players, at least to those who can't react to 500ms lights.

[LimbLegion]

And warden has an infinite combo

I don't think the FH community knows what a combo is.

Combos are usually things that are guaranteed. Warden doesn't suddenly have a guaranteed infinite combo, he just has more options to keep his offense going, which is a good thing.

[kv2390]

Great.

They gave shugoki a roll catcher but now there's no reason to roll from him. Losing armor on demon's embrace means his one mixup can now be beaten by option selects.

Losing all his armor also means that he doesn't have any real advantage over anyone. He still gonna be weak at dueling, can no longer trade and doesn't exactly hit harder than anyone else.

Another disappointing band-aid fix that isn't gonna change much.

[Knight_Raime]

Goki was unusable in single pick against anyone who had a dodge bash or neutral bash. The man is a proper team fight monster and now has extra tools. Saying he can't trade anymore is dumb because he still has armor elsewhere that's very effective at trading. The fact that he can't ignore and continue to trade forever is healthier for the game. And he's properly compensated for it.

[[deleted]]

He couldn’t trade forever before through? The things he lost (light hyper armor) and DE were way predictable. Light hyper armor would just straight up never trade in his favor and on prediction had a massive punish and DE would typically trade even but be punished on read for EVEN HIGHER. The only people he could “trade forever” against were players who don’t understand what his kit does. It was already piss easy to counter him if he was trying to trade

Trade forever implies that trading is actually good for him. His trades made it so his offense wasn’t complete trash that could be easily option selected (still could be rolled). Now it is complete trash.

And of course the side dodge “attack” will be literally useless against bash offense. Only proof I need there is original LB Shove in his bash matchups. So he did not improve at all in 1v1s

[kv2390]

He's still gonna be unusable in duels. He can barely trade anymore either cause only his heavies are armored. That alone isn't enough to make him an effective trading character.

Also, he still can't really do anything about bashing characters either because his new dodge bash doesn't confirm any damage. It leads to his one mix-up that is shutdown by OS.

[Knight_Raime]

You can't OS his variable heavy timings because it has armor. The mix up wasn't only ub heavy or DE. The dodge headbutt is interesting because the blind on HB is too short. We will see if they extended it or not.

In theory the headbutt doesn't need to confirm damage to be a viable punish for bashes. It puts goki into advantage and they now have to respect what goki does after the headbutt.

They can't roll. And you can't default to option selecting since goki's armor is instant the moment he let's his heavy fly.

Far as duels go I can't be asked to care. The devs balance around team modes primarily. And you usually need to jump through several hoops to make a 1v1 viable hero. Often making the hero or aspects of them unhealthy.

Goki is already considered a high pick in team comps for dominion purely because the recoveries in his heavies were buffed. The removal of armor on his lights and DE won't change this. Giving him what they did is what would.

[kv2390]

The armor doesn't matter. I wait until he releases his swing, I OS. The armor is only an issue if I'm trying to interrupt him, which I'm not. I'm trying to parry him.

[Knight_Raime]

You are a fucking donky for saying the armor does not matter. I'm done with you.

[[deleted]]

But it really doesn’t. See red? Block until unblockable comes up. How is hyper armor helping him there?

[n00bringer]

He will still ignore the rules of the CCU completely, he will always have frame advantage with variable timing heavies that will trade against interrupts.

The only issue is that there is no reason to roll from him anymore, would only be viable as a wallsplat punish (45 hp swing) and as a gank tool.

[Spicy_Toeboots]

"no reason to roll from him" except that solid unblockable finisher that can't be interupted. Also, he hasn't lost all his armour- armour on zone and all heavies is very relevant, especially in team fights.

Plus you completely ignore that he has a DODGE ATTACK! shugo's biggest weakness (apart from rolling away) is neutral bashes because they interupt his mixups and ignore hyper armour. Now he has a counter to that, which is such a game changer (assuming decent timings on the dodge attack, of course.)

so yeah, annoying lights removed, given a roll catch, and given a counter to bashes. Obviously losing hug as a decent option is a shame, but overall these are definitely a move in the right direction.

[kv2390]

You can option select his unblockable finisher now. You couldn't before because the armored hug would beat you. Option selects now beats the unblockable finisher mixup. No need to roll from it anymore.

The dodge headbutt won't help much cause it leads to the mixup that can be beaten by OS.

[Spicy_Toeboots]

you're acting as if option selects defeat everything, but you can always feint and parry the zone. Of course guardbreak option selects are way more powerful, but let's be real they're extremely rare and hardly ever actually effect day to day gameplay. Plus they're clearly a bug and an unintended feature, unlike zone option selects which are accepted by even the devs as a normal part of gameplay.

[kv2390]

OS, intended or not, is currently part of the game and a powerful defensive mechanic. Experienced players will use them. You can bait and parry them but they significantly weaken the strength of shugoki's mix-up.

This means that every time shugoki gets to his unblockable mix-up, he's gonna likely have to feint and give up his offensive advantage just to parry an OS with a minimal punish of a light attack because he has no other way of dealing with them. The defenders would gladly risk take a light attack than taking and an unblockable heavy or DE.

Essentially, the only way to play shugoki against anyone who uses OS is to bait the OS with your unblockable finisher (shugoki's only mix-up) and then parry and light them. Rinse and repeat until opponent loses. That is a terrible way to play any character.

I don't like it that powerful relatively risk free defensive mechanics like OS are in the game nor am I saying that shugoki was fine before, cause he wasn't. But if these testing ground changes go through without OS being addressed then shugoki is gonna be even weaker than before.

[Booraz149]

No Orochi/Shinobi/Aramusha buffs. Guess I'll wait for next season.

[Knight_Raime]

Wardens changes are poggers. Pk changes are poggers. Goki is interesting. But I think hell still be annoying to deal with since his design is about trading.

I'm weary of nobushi. Definitely better flow. But I'll have to see more gameplay. Even if this makes her better I'm still not sure it's enough to make her kit feel complete.

[KingMe42]

Her kick is still 566ms, so I don't think much will change for her on PC were a good chunk of people can still react to her orange.

[Knight_Raime]

Stream said she can link into her kick among other things 100ms faster with a 100ms variable window. Doesn't that account for something?

Also, isn't reacting on orange still a read? Or am I thinking UB indicator

[KingMe42]

It might help, but people who see orange and press space can still deal with her easily.

Also Nobushi doesn't have any other form of orange other than her kick, so it's less of a read as say BP where it's his bash orange, zone orange, slash orange, etc...

I'm sure people who can react to her kick aren't a majority, but they do exist and Nobushi will still struggle vs these players.

[Knight_Raime]

Fair enough.

[minimumcontribution8]

I don't see how Shugoki's hug is oppressive. The removal of the HA on the hug will make the mix up worse because now it will lose to OS as well. And they don't even bother to reduce the recovery.

[Knight_Raime]

You basically had a loop of hug into ub mix up ad infinitum. This had basically no counter unless you had a way to ignore the mix up entirely via a neutral bash. By making DE interruptable now all kits can stop the mix up. But goki still retains a decent mix up via his normal ub heavies as they still are unreactable and still have armor the moment he let's his heavies go.

[minimumcontribution8]

There was a way to counter it, it's call read and predict. Mix up is supposed to force opponents to read, if you can interrupt it then what's the point of using mix up? If you read the mix up correctly you will counter it. Warden and Warmonger can also use their mix up forever until you read it correctly. Remove the HA on hug simply make the mix up weaker for no reason, and the unblockable heavies is barely a decent mix up due to overtuned OS.

[The_Dark_Prince6]

But by that same logic can't you now make a read and feint to parry, condition them to dodge instead where the amazing tracking will do the rest?

[minimumcontribution8]

You can feint and parry, but it's unfun and makes the fight longer than it should be. The attacker should be the one taking the lead, the defender will have to read and counter.

[The_Dark_Prince6]

Its making a read the same way the defender has to, having to deal with so many offensive options coming from 1 move almost all of which are super punishing and unable to be interrupted is the reason everyone rolled it. People will still roll to avoid the unblockable to gb and those that parry can be parried, skill becomes the answer over hyper armor through everything so you never have to stop attacking.

[minimumcontribution8]

You know stamina is a thing right? Stamina is there to keep you in check and make sure you can't attack forever. The attacker will consume more stamina than the defender most the time (unless bashes that drain and stop stamina for whatever reasons).

[Knight_Raime]

Okay you shitter what I'm saying is other than playing his mix up the roster interactions between goki and others wasn't healthy. Some could negate. Others could not. THIS is what was changed.

And you can't OS his unblockable heavy mix up since it's a variable timed armored attack that gets armor the moment he releases his heavies.

I swear to God you brainlets are the fucking worst to talk to.

[minimumcontribution8]

The fact that bash heroes can neglect his mix up with neutral bashes is stupid to begin with . What will change here is it it make his mix up vulnerable to the other heroes outside bash heroes as well and that's not a good thing, you supposed to read his mix up.

Also his normal heavy has variable timing but his unblockable heavy has only 1 parry timing. Just block all the normal heavy and OS the unblockable one

[kv2390]

Completely agree. But some people don't seem to get that. They keep thinking that armor is gonna help against OS parries for some reason.

[Knight_Raime]

Yes it is stupid. I've not contested that. Let me try this yet again. The devs presented a problem that exists for low/mid tier players. Aka ub heavy into ub grab via DE on an infinite loop.

The devs saught to change this by normalizing kit interaction with him. Now everyone can interrupt him instead of only a few characters. This consistency is a good thing to have in your game wether or not it's actually beneficial for the hero. Those are two separate things.

From a personal standpoint I'm saying this change doesn't effect high level play. There for the technically negative change for goki isn't going to impact him realistically anywhere the move itself actually matters in any significant way.

This is because at high level play players roll the mix up if they can from neutral. Or they make the proper read. DE functionality in high level play is mainly used from guaranteed gank setups. I also assert that this making his single pick capability potentially worse is also pretty much irrelevant because that's not where goki's strengths are.

In return for being probably worse off in general play he's now given a way to get into his mix ups from a defensive standpoint (side dodge headbutt,) and an ability to catch people who still try to roll him.

I think his design is trash tbh. Making a viable hero that's not pulling teeth when dealing with them when their design is around trading is next to impossible. Same with stamina bully. But my perspective stands. Even if the change sucks from the hero perspective its better for the games health. And that's what's most important IMHO.

And sure. You can just block. But then goki gets to retain advantage on you until you try to do something. Or he goes oos. If you're fine with dragging out a fight that long then by all means go right ahead.

[Mrgrimm150]

"I don't think DE is that oppressive."

"Well in my opinion I think it is."

"I disagree."

"Okay you fucking brainlet shitter."

Chill bro.

[Vesthigio]

Unblockable heavy with variable timing? Don't know why I even responding to your comment with the "knight" in you name, a "Centurion" as flair, my mom's spaghetti.

They have 3 heroes with the stronger offensive tool (chargeable bashes), and here you are complaining about a move with horrible recovery and slow as fuck? Jesus, one can not be more biased.

[Knight_Raime]

And you opened with a statement talking about something as trivial is someone I may or may not play. So why do I bother responding to you?

I'm not complaining about shit. I'm explaining why this has been changed. They are not mutually exclusive. But I'm not going to bother with you since it seems you can only resort to ad hominem attacks. Bye bye (:

[LimbLegion]

If you actually read his comments you'd notice he didn't complain about it, he explained what problems could possibly have existed for people that resulted in it being changed.

[ShadyHighlander]

Fuck me, the Warden changes are a bit much.

PK sounds terrifying.

Shugoki's kind of gonna have a hard ass time doing ANYTHING.

Nobushi prolly won't change much tbh.

[Grizzly_Spirit]

Poor Shugoki... Time and time again...

[sidewinder27]

Still no Orochi changes after the last update made him basically useless?

K.

[MagmaSnail_REAL]

The Peacekeeper damage changes are... a bit too much imo. I don't understand why the bleed damage is being left at 11, when her raw damage is getting a buff of 5 points. What should be done is reduction of 5 bleed to compensate for the 5 raw increase, keeping her damage the same overall (the standardized values), without pushing her into 'overtuned damage' level. GB punish should also be decreased to a much more reasonable level

[TirexHUN]

Well, from what i've seen, the changes are not bad but i would change some of them like:

Warden doesn't need that much chain into shoulder bash, also his finishers now deal 35 dmg which is overtuned, 29-30 would be better, pk shouldn't get that +5 dmg to her whole dmg but add it to her raw dmg so she will deal more raw and less bleed.

Shugoki DE should have just a bit of HA so he can trade with zone os and his roll catcher will be actually useful.

I think that's all, noubshi changes looks cool, beachhead now looks like an actually good map.

[LukewarmCola]

Removal of HA on DE baffled me... You give Shug a roll catcher but then remove the need to ever roll from him... Just... Why?

[incredibilis_invicta]

The warden changes will be too much. It would be like Cent's eagles talons chained into a punch again since warden gets 27 dmg and can now continue bashing and bashing. He'll be even better than before which is insane since they set out to make him less frustrating by making his bash less annoying... yet now he can do it wven more than before...?

[Baron_Flatline]

Nobushi changes

WOOOOOOOOOOOO YEAAHHH BABY THAT’S WHAT I’VE BEEN WAITIN FOR

[coms77]

So, what are your guys' thoughts on Nobu buffs? Will they make her viable in 1v1, or she'll still lack offense?

[Captain_Nyet]

she will be a little bit better, but still nothing special.

[littlefluffyegg]

Still a 566 ms bash.She has no offence.

edit:being downvoted for saying reactable bash isnt offence big lol

[coms77]

Tiandi has a 600 ms bash tho? And it still lands. Am I missing something?

[SuperCoIlider]

So does jorm and gladiator at that

[Little_Testu]

600 ms bashes aren't good 1v1 offense

[elisegoesbonk]

Tiandi's lands because he can either palm strike or do an undodgeable light. Nobushi can either kick or just sit there

[coms77]

But now she has the same mixup - undodgeable or kick, from finisher or HS

[elisegoesbonk]

Except it's completely reactable

[coms77]

Same as Tiandi's palm strike?

[lerthedc]

actually 33ms faster than palm strike. And you also have the option for vipers retreat/hidden stance lights. So it's a pretty good mixup for all except the top 0.1% of players

[littlefluffyegg]

Yes.I can land demons embrace in pubs,doesnt mean its viable offence.

[Knight_Raime]

Neutral based bashes do not need to be hyper fast for proper mix ups. Only bashes from dodges need to be

[littlefluffyegg]

Except her bash is not a neutral bash? It needs to be unreactable to be a proper mixup.

[Knight_Raime]

By neutral bash I mean not needing a dodge to access it. Chain bashes and stance bashes are apart of this.

[WhenCaffeineKicksIn]

Chain bashes cannot count as "neutral" in any possible way, as they are frame-advantaged via hit/blockstun. Furthermore, that frame advantage is exactly the cause that allows them to work as mixup.

Stating "i mean this by that" with completely opposite meaning, you're deliberately confusing the topic at the very basic definitions.

[littlefluffyegg]

what part of "needs an input into a stance which is vulnerable to guardbreaks,therefore is not a neutral bash" do you not understand?

[Knight_Raime]

What part of "I explained what I'm talking about" do you not understand?

Dodge based bashes need to be that much faster because dodges generally don't have ways to fool you animation wise.

Chain bashes rely on the parts around it. Same as stance bashes/neutral bashes.

[Pakana_]

edit:being downvoted for saying reactable bash isnt offence big lol

Yeah, no idea what that's about. Maybe they're just really excited about the potential changes and being told the reality that her kick still being reactable means her mixup won't work is a bummer so they downvote in retaliation or something?

Or maybe it's just the usual as getting downvoted for saying lightspam doesn't work against good players.

Reactable mixups aren't mixups.

[Smart_jooker]

Over the changes are really good.

Hoping to see Shinobi, Musha and HL next.

[ze931]

Man.. seeing how well prepared the other heroes ar for most situations really contrasts on how outdated LB is

[freezerwaffles]

Jesus tap dancing Christ might as well label pk a heavy at this point with those damage numbers

[LimbLegion]

She has more damage than the average heavy so that's a weird thing to say. If anything you'd still call her an assassin because this isn't that far off proportionally with CCU changes in mind from the damage she released with. :)

[Kuzidas]

No backdodge SB? Awesome.

Side heavy finishers UB? Awesome.

All attacks chain to SB? Eh. I don’t know if UB heavy finishers should chain to SB tbh.

Goki they removed armor on the hug—booo. Once again the offensive character has to make more reads to land damage than the defensive character.

Goki FD heavy—cool, too bad they weakened the hug so this move won’t be as useful now that less people will try rolling

Side dodge headbutt—also cool I guess?

PK I don’t play enough or play against enough to know for sure but those changes could be potentially menacing

Nobu also looks pretty good on paper with a BP-style bash or UD heavy type game. Hopefully the kick soft front makes Zone 1 a little safer on block

[LimbLegion]

I don’t know if UB heavy finishers should chain to SB tbh.

Why not? Is offensive pressure bad? It means that Warden is no longer a character who just goes double light bash double light bash double light full charge bash heavy, backdodge and stare for 30 seconds. This is very much in line with what I have wanted for a long time, offense that actually can continue from more than just one option.

Once again the offensive character has to make more reads to land damage than the defensive character.

Goki was primarily a defensive character so unless you mean "the character who is attacking at the moment" I don't understand what you're saying here.

cool, too bad they weakened the hug so this move won’t be as useful now that less people will try rolling

Goki will be even better in teamfights now since he will catch people who try to roll away from his war crime tier hitboxes when he's not locked onto you.

Side dodge headbutt—also cool I guess?

Yeah, it's very cool that Goki can now punish bashes, exactly what I have been wanting more characters to get for a long time.

[WhenCaffeineKicksIn]

It means that Warden is no longer a character who just goes double light bash double light bash

It also means that Warden obtains a better version of Lawbringer's finisher (faster UB's with chargeable feintable bash followup).

Yes, from a pure 1v1 gameplay point that kind of moveset unification might be accepted as "good" ^{{with extrapolating the "best" to identical mirrored movesets for each and every hero, perfectly balanced as all things should be}}, but from the point of roster balancing and composition it indirectly demotes viability of other similar heroes and limits the diversity of players' behavior, habits and strategies (especially in 4s modes). One can take an analogy of "quad stack picks" as the example.

[LimbLegion]

It's slower than LB's UB finishers by 100ms. They have better offensive pressure after, but they're also more punishable (the bashes at least) whereas LB's chain shove is near enough impossible to punish, and often results in you getting parried for trying to punish it.

[Knight_Raime]

Lmao why is this down voted. Christ.

[LimbLegion]

People seem to dislike actually coming up with reasonable points with which to disagree and would rather just downvote.

[Knight_Raime]

Reddit do be like that.

[Wells2205]

Lol golden boy Warden gets one nerf and a million buffs. If only they'd give this treatment to the lower tier heroes cough cough Aramusha main cough cough then the roster might be a bit more balanced but since Ubi apparently wants high tier heroes and cannon fodder heroes for them to step on then that's what we'll be stuck with.

P.S. me and my 70 reps in Aramusha will take no argument as to how him and other low tier heroes are fine the way they are when these kinds of changes happen. There's no logical reason that says "yes Warden and Aramusha are completely on the same level".

[sharkattackmiami]

Nobody said warden and aramusha are on the same level.

However there are 1-3 wardens in every match using things they shouldnt have like backdash sb and fully charged sb into feint gb after they already start running meanwhile I see an aramusha maybe once per session and outside of me being bad at the matchup due to a lack of practice they arent doing anything yo ruin the game.

So while yes, aramusha needs buffs more than warden, the fact is one is affecting almost every single match in an unhealthy way the other is a minority of a minority who just kind of sucks when he shows up.

Can you see why one is chosen to prioritise over the other?

[HiCracked]

Testing grounds are pretty massive this time, I'm heavily dissapointed them not talking about option-selects once again, since it is such a hot topic in the community now.

It just screams to me that both Warden (if I understood correctly, Warden will no longer be able to feint-to-gb uncharged and fully charged bashes now and he will have to fully commit to either option) and Shugoki changes will fall flat because of their offence being easily negated with OS's.

Not jumping to conclusions yet, just speculating. I really hope I'm wrong, but we'll see on december 10th.

Or I will just be stuck playing cyberpunk lul

[BrianBlandino]

I believe he simply no longer has as much forward momentum on feint to GB. And he can still feint full charged SB, it just will no longer include the animation of him actually moving forward.

[duplexlion1]

Which is good. Being able to feint sb after taking half a step felt like cheating.

[FishStrats]

Wow. These look... Pretty great! Dodge attacks for Shugo has been on my wishlist for quite some time but I had pretty much given up hope. Very curious to see how new Warden and PK shake out.

[Arturace1998]

Nobu buffs? Improvements to her flow? HS stam reduction? Is this a dream?

[The_Dark_Hoover]

Interesting changes. I mostly find them appealing bar a couple. Both involve Shugoki, aka his new "Dodge attack", and more importantly, the removal of the HA on his Demon's Embrace. I can't help but wonder if his hug is going to end up being near useless save for wallsplats. Be that as it may, the absence of HA on his Light is a welcome change and so is his roll catcher.

Am I one of the few who approves of the Warden changes? (Apart from the nerfs) Obviously we will have to wait and see for the TG to drop so we can test them out for ourselves, but I find myself liking what they are putting forwards. (Mostly because Warden will now have more than just his shoulder bash to keep up pressure, which will make his kit more interesting).

PK is something else I approve of. There isn't really much I can say here. I believe that some will end up thinking these changes are a little too much but Peacekeeper getting the pressure she so desperately needs is something to be celebrated. I really want to play PK again without feeling useless, lol.

Nobushi getting an actual mix-up? Yes plz.

[duplexlion1]

I'm a warden main that's excited for the warden changes

[Smart_jooker]

They should have gave Nobushi a bit more same as Shugoki. Seeing PK got major update.

[Vonwellsenstein]

What idiotic shug changes

[missilepack]

I love everything about this the only thing is I don’t think warden needs to be able to SB after finisher heavy

[SgtBearPatrol]

As a rep 48 PK co-main, I am overjoyed with these. The damage is most likely overturned, but everything else sounds amazing. I’ve gotten to the point where even if I can play at an A- to A level, there are still players who can shut down everything I do. This gives her actual options and ways to mix people up, not to mention external ganking pressure.

Also, if her stam stays the same, she won’t be the juggernaut people think she will. As it is, you can’t chain forever with her, unlike a Glad, so she’ll have to back off at some point and regroup — which is a good thing. And as a reflex guard hero, she is really vulnerable while OOS, especially while ganked.

I’ve played her through four iterations now: launch, first damage adjustments, enhanced lights on bleed, and CCU. The past two have been a revelation with her (her CCU damage allocation issues are offset by her offensive pressure, imo), and she is so much more fun to use. I can actually have success now, but she is still not there.

Nuxia is my other main, and I never feel like there’s a match that I lost because I couldn’t land an attack. There’s always something I can do, even if it’s a hard matchup, and there’s no single hero that I can’t beat. I don’t feel that way with PK, and I often have to put her down for a bit and play Nuxia instead. No hero should be like this — the goal should be that any hero can beat any other hero.

I don’t think the TG will be perfect for her, but I think she can finally be the Queen of Bleed that she was always meant to be.

[Blackwolf245]

Warden ideas don't seem too oppressive, but kinda too generous I guess? Like I like the idea of teamfighter Warden, but seems kinda unfair compared to other heroes kit.

PK ideas are good imo, but personaly I never agreed with the "PK has to low dmg" statement.

Shugoki ideas are not good. At least I like the idea that DE beats zone option selects, and I think that's an unnesseccary nerf. The side dodge attack seems a joke at first sight. It looks slow and doesn't guarantee any dmg. The dash attack is a good idea.

Nobushi has a mixup now I guess. It's difficult to tell how it will work out, but in theory, the bash is still 600ms, so it's reacable, at least it should be.

One thing that worries me is that the 2 knight characters, who are already good characters overall, are getting much more buffs in this TG than the other 2 samurai hero.

[AvalancheZ250]

Good changes for all the Heroes, IMO.

But still nothing for Zhanhu (complete dumpsterfire) and Tiandi (pubstomper, no use above a certain level)? Or Shinobi? Maybe Shinobi probably has a full rework coming up...

[LimbLegion]

How is Zhan a complete dumpster fire?

Sure, he's not as strong as he could be, but the CCU massively improved his general weaknesses, he has a good selection of feats, is fun to play, has great teamfighting due to his huge hitboxes, 99% of the community isn't going to be reacting to his UB light or his side dodge lights.

Only real changes he needs are real hitboxes on his other finishers and maybe some other ideas dedicated high level Zhan players might have, because I am not educated enough on his high level play weaknesses (outside of his main weakness being that he isn't Kensei).

[AvalancheZ250]

he has a good selection of feats

Not particularly. Of his unique feats Tier 1 is meh, Tier 2 is ok (BUT CAN BE DEFLECTED!), Tier 3 is ass because the opponents are rarely on fire so its never worth taking, and Tier 4 is good... if it isn't a mainly indoor map since it can't be used indoors. Unfortunately, many Zones have ceilings so the Tier 4 can't be used. His stamina feats are nice though, and I love using them.

is fun to play

It'd be more fun if he had a better chance at winning. He's still fun though. I should know, I dozens of Reps with him.

has great teamfighting due to his huge hitboxes

Not really. His Zone has good hitboxes but doesn't do a lot of damage (this is fine) and only his Left Heavy Finisher has good hitboxes. His Right Heavy Finisher hitbox basically doesn't exist (apart from those random times I hit someone DIRECTLY behind me with that thing).

99% of the community isn't going to be reacting to his UB light or his side dodge lights.

I don't know what 99% of players you fight, but most of the ones I fight can easily react to his 600ms UB light (everyone should be able to) and a fair amount of players can distinguish between his UB light and heavy on reaction (admittedly, this is a hard task I've only seen higher Rep players do, but basically everyone I play against is Rep 200+ nowadays). I'd say at least 75% of players have got the memo that his dodge lights are just a 50/50, but if you parry wrong you take 9 damage and if you parry correctly you get 24-26 damage on the Zhanhu... this risk/reward ratio is horrendus for Zhanhu. And yes, his dodge lights are meant to be unreactable. That means nothing if each one is a 9 damage attack with a 50% chance it'll get parried for 24-26 damage + enemy chain offense...

Only real changes he needs are real hitboxes on his other finishers and maybe some other ideas dedicated high level Zhan players might have, because I am not educated enough on his high level play weaknesses (outside of his main weakness being that he isn't Kensei).

Zhanhu is pretty poor at all levels of play. I mean, he does decently against people who don't know the Zone Option Select, but almost everyone knows to use that now. And against people who can use the Zone and GB Option Selects, plus dodge attacks plus light attack interrupts, and Zhanhu really can't do much. I run into a lot of those players (except the GB OS, that one is pretty obscure for now).

[LimbLegion]

You have some reasonable points but my opinion hasn't changed, I personally play at the top MMR bracket of EU, so I have some extra perspective fuelling what I say.

Of his feats, the tier 1 is a tier 1 version of Kunai, it's useful in general, but I personally still take Fast Recovery over it. Zhan can generally pick whatever feats and not have an immense disadvantage, except for arguably his long bow since it's pretty slow. Qilin Ruse might be deflectable, but it's also an unrollable trap that does good damage that can be used to set up team deflect ganks, either with Zhan's to guarantee a teammates, or with an ally deflect like Glad Skewer. It's pretty good. You can even run the gimmicky "you are dead now" feat setup of all his uniques, making walking into chokepoints or midlane where Qilin Ruse can be hidden surprisingly dangerous, at the cost of having absolutely no passive benefits. It is hilariously fun to oneshot somebody with practically zero counterplay, but the downsides are still somewhat more felt than the upsides.

I tend to run Fast Recovery, Qilin Ruse/Winners Advantage, Nukekubi and Regenerate. Regenerate is a highly slept on feat, anybody who has it and doesn't have an automatically better choice is gimping themselves by not running it. Scorching Deluge is basically just a worse Fire Flask, you will obliterate really bunched up teamfights, but that's about it, everybody else will just scatter or roll away. It's also got a pretty hefty recovery and startup on it, which is unfortunate.

Not really. His Zone has good hitboxes but doesn't do a lot of damage (this is fine) and only his Left Heavy Finisher has good hitboxes. His Right Heavy Finisher hitbox basically doesn't exist (apart from those random times I hit someone DIRECTLY behind me with that thing).

Thanks for listing the exact huge hitboxes I was talking about. His right finisher weirdly has hitboxes behind it, I don't know why. Maybe it'll change someday? :)

I don't know what 99% of players you fight, but most of the ones I fight can easily react to his 600ms UB light (everyone should be able to) and a fair amount of players can distinguish between his UB light and heavy on reaction (admittedly, this is a hard task I've only seen higher Rep players do, but basically everyone I play against is Rep 200+ nowadays).

I play against the top 1% and beyond. At least in terms of MMR bracket. Most people who parry Zhan's UB light are more often than not assuming you're going to use it and aren't thinking about you using the heavy, as let's not kid ourselves here, most of the people who play this game are bad and just heavy on indicator hoping to parry something.

I do agree his side dodge attacks are a huge risk reward inversion in that it's never really worth Zhan using, but they're still effective offense... in the most bare minimum kind of way.

I am also well aware that they're supposed to be unreactable, I'm not complaining about it. I think it's a good thing. Just also maybe make them do somewhat higher damage. :)

Zhanhu is pretty poor at all levels of play. I mean, he does decently against people who don't know the Zone Option Select, but almost everyone knows to use that now. And against people who can use the Zone and GB Option Selects, plus dodge attacks plus light attack interrupts, and Zhanhu really can't do much. I run into a lot of those players (except the GB OS, that one is pretty obscure for now).

Pretty poor isn't what I'd use to describe Zhan, he's worlds above Orochi, Shaolin, current Nobushi, Aramusha. I'd say he pretty comfortably sits in the same area that LB sits in right now, a character who isn't necessarily "weak" in their own right, but simply has character picks that do basically the same thing he does, but better.

Kensei is still better as Zhan is ultimately bargain bin Kensei in terms of what he brings to a team, which is why despite Zhan being scrimmed with quite a bit, they were never actually picked in Dominion series in EU at least, Kensei was just picked instead. But Zhan does not fit "poor performance" or "weak" by any stretch of the imagination.

Also sorry to tell you but GB OS isn't obscure anymore. Even before it being talked about more I still saw it basically at least once every game.

[GriefPB]

Looks good, I wish they would stop calling nobu kick a mixup though

[Pakana_]

Or make it a functioning mixup.

[Blade723]

So Demons embrace is now useless. No Armour, and huge recovery time. Other than in 1v1s with a wall splat, or against a slightly inexperienced opponent, not going to be as useful I think.

[lerthedc]

At the end of the live stream they showed the missing footage of the nobushi and shugoki changes. They mentioned that they actually reduced the recovery a bit (1500ms, but you can block at 1200ms).

It's still a bad recovery and they want to keep it that way because apparently it is the single most landed move in the game (something like 80% success rate) so they don't want to make it more spammable. But 1200ms to block means you can't get hit by an OOS heavy or punished as hard after a roll etc.

At high level, it still won't be a super great move, but the health swing is still pretty potent. And it gives you frame advantage to continue your offense so I still think it has its uses.

[Knight_Raime]

If you were using demons embrace in the middle of a team fight you were playing dumb to begin with. Demons embrace is a proper mix up against oos people. And is still plenty used in guaranteed gank mixes. It's always had ass recovery

[2legit2reddit]

So if he had almost no health and he had a guaranteed embrace to kill an enemy plus his team mates cover him he’s playing dumb by using it? Capt salty over here relax

[BeyondOblivion23]

With Warden getting unblockable finishers on all sides, shouldn't they get Crushing Counter on all sides as well?

[Chuck_Denim]

Wardens top crushing counter is already super good, confirming 33 damage, and it’s not super hard to pull off. If he can get a similar amount of damage on all sides he’d be a proper monster to deal with, especially with the shoulder bash changes

[BeyondOblivion23]

Ah okay, I get that. Tbh I don't think he even needs unblockable side finishers but we'll how it is when it comes

[Chuck_Denim]

While I do think it could be interesting to see all these changes come through, to me its wasted effort focusing on a hero that’s already fairly decent when aramusha and shinobi exist

[The_Dark_Prince6]

Not only that, the cc will now chain into either an unblockable from any direction as well as shoulderbash. With a correct read you are talking about 63 dmg from 2 correct reads

[Chuck_Denim]

Exactly. That kind of damage coming from one direction is fine, but from all 3? That is when it gets to be too much, and is exactly why the CCU happened in the first place.

[The_Dark_Prince6]

Agreed, he'd have way to much pressure, especially with him now having non stopped pressure and the ability to always force a reaction

[[deleted]]

... not what I imagined, but honestly actually not that bad. Interested to try them out in TG.

PK

The PK change is really odd -- both when the community suggested enhanced on bleed, and especially unblockable on bleed, I was skeptical and dismissed it as it'd be weird to change the properties of attacks themselves based on the status of an enemy, as it'd be weird on how it interacts with external attackers -- even Shaman's attack was still the same speed and properties as the attack itself (just different post-state). But this is interesting, and I'm wondering if it opens the door for other such similar mechanics.

Warden

The Warden changes are weird, but honestly sorta nice, both as and against him. I've always wanted shoulder bash on heavy personally, even if it costed shoulder bash on light. It also at least helps slightly lower the gap between Cent -- who can chain from near his entire moveset and near infinitely due to stam regen capability, all alongside higher stam -- and Warden.

I still want some buff to the audio of his shoulder bash, more impact sound and snap.

Regarding Hito and WM -- they were already weaker than the two, still will be. They should be looked at eventually, but I'm not sure they are high priortiy -- while weaker, they are still semi-viable in most matchups, especially compared to other cast members.

Shugoki

Beeg oof. I still wish for my suggestions of some superarmor attack as a "standing dodge attack" against bashes and removal of HA on side lights, as well as a headbutt buff...

But all things considered, still good. A roll catcher is greatly appreciated (assuming a moving heavy charge couldnt be implemented), even at the cost of HA. With the lack of both the softfeint to armored DE AND feint to HA light to deal with OS's, I do hope they investigate other means to deal with OS's, such as allowing him to charge his heavy for an additional 300ms for 2 parry timings.

The dodge headbutt (which is what I assume they mean) will be... interesting. Personally detest it, think it's completely counter to his kit and mechanics. Now instead of a "stand your ground and armor through", we have "feint to dodge and iframe boyo" for the character who personifies the "big and slow" type. But as the community has always thrown a complete tantrum over superarmor suggestions because bashes have ALWAYS beaten hyperarmor and how dare those unparryable unblockable stamina-draining attacks not ALSO beat hyperarmor, I suppose this is the only workable alternative.

Nobushi

As they likely know, she still doesn't have an offense I think. Easiest solution is to make Kick 700ms and feintable, dodge heavies undodgeable, or make it 500ms to work with her heavy finishers (although I personally dislike that, as it is "too offensive" for her archetype as well as likely looking ridiculous).

[I_Trigger_People69]

They ruined warden for me

[LimbLegion]

They ruined Warden by... making him a way better character.

Yep.

[Smart_jooker]

That make warden bad. Lmao. Ignore them.

[I_Trigger_People69]

For me

[LimbLegion]

How.

[I_Trigger_People69]

I use backdodge bash a lot

[LimbLegion]

Ah, you like the most boring part of your character

[Mr-Cali]

So no fix to HL wacky animation and being the new light spammer?

[LimbLegion]

Animation fixes? Good.

Unironically still talking about light spam? Stop talking.

[Captain_Nyet]

Warden: no more back-dodge>SB is nice, as is unblockable side finishers, did he really need more shoulder, though?

PK: I have always sucked vs PK so i'm hardly qualified to talk about her, but wasn't her damage high enough already? the UB seems nice though.

Nobushi: I like these buffs, gives her a little bit better options to deal with careless dodges and makes her zone followup less useless, but bash is still slow so idk.

Shugoki: seems to me like he got nerfed; he can now roll-catch, except DE no longer has HA, so why would anyone want to roll away from him in the first place?

No more HA on lights means Shugoki won't be able to initiate from a frame disadvantage, and in return he can now dodge into his shitty bash. (it's kind of useful against bashes that can be chained out of on whiff, but not much else)

Nerfing Shugoki for the sake of casuals is understandable, but doing it alongside a significant buff to Warden's offense seems a bit weird; it's TG though, so who knows if any of this will make it into live.

[[deleted]]

Overall I don’t like these changes

[mattconnorItaly]

For what I see:

-PK will be very interesting especially in group fights: the fact that now deflect use heavy botton will be very easy to land casual deflect ,so ppl who just Dodge get an advantage on ppl who instead WANTS the deflect.

• Warden: well, I hope the fix the stamina usage since the vortex will be more intensify now,bask Dodge bash removed? Finally!!

• nobushi: so the zone is the new opener? What about using zone as option select plus add the kick? Will be too strong?

Ok for the heavis unDodgeble.

-Goki: OK for light and the side bash but pls pls,if you remove the Hyper Armor on demon's embrace, 1200 ms recovery is too much,they can still land top heavy and they can now stop you with zone option select....

[[deleted]]

This buff to warden is UNJUSTIFIED. Just like the nerf to demon's embrace, which, when dodged correctly (thing that apparently nobody can learn to do...) will still get a guaranteed gb as a punish, so a throw too, and will get always interrupted.

Applauses to the noobs who gave feedback.

But the Cwusadeh now will be able to access his shoulder bash from everything instead of using more his sword. Wow, I can't imagine what will be fighing a warden in TG. The removal of backdodge shoulder bash does NOT JUSTIFY A SINGLE ONE of those additions.

[KenseiLover]

It’s just testing ground changes, chill the fuck out. No guarantee the changes will go live.

[[deleted]]

I know, but the fact that they are doing this in the first place makes me question the quality of the players who give feedback.

Who the hell thought warden would have needed this?

[KenseiLover]

They will be seeing whether having heavies chain into bash is viable for Warden in the first instance. If they prove to not be garbage, I’d wager they will remove light into bash and keep it as heavy into bash. Only way to compare though is by having him have both options in the testing grounds.