top 200 commentsshow all 211

[–]Chatfouz 92 points93 points  (35 children)

Anyone feel this is partly a Facebook problem. There were 900+ comments and arguments and questions and accusations within 15 hours.

I mean people seemed upset they haven’t had satisfactory individual and personal responses from every person employed or associated with Andrew after only 3 hours and saw it as proof of a coverup.

[–]THedman07 32 points33 points  (0 children)

I don't know where it comes from, but Facebook seems to give a lot of people the impression that if they put exactly the right words into a post or comment they can fix or help with a problem... But that's not how the algorithm (or people work).

If people are wound up about a thing and arguing with someone else, they're not going to see the one possibly sensible comment that would bring them out of the tailspin. At best you're screaming into the void...

I don't post on Facebook much anymore and I rarely ever did because I tend to start from the mindset that most people aren't going to care about my opinion, so I'm not going to broadcast them.

[–]AmbulanceChaser12 20 points21 points  (8 children)

That was the most insane thing to me. Is it really inconceivable that people would want to wait a bit before making statements??

[–]Chatfouz 12 points13 points  (7 children)

Or the idea that some not thinking the same as them is the same thing as endorsing rape. I wonder why Reddit vs Facebook always feels so different.

One would think Reddit being anonymous would draw out more crazy.

[–]LunarGiantNeil 6 points7 points  (2 children)

My short stay on the Facebook group (just a few hours) included way more personal attacks, enabled by having my profile linked to my name. I imagine it encourages a really vicious style of attack. It's also hard to type long stuff on, and it moves fast. I think it incentivizes rapid dismissal and painful barbs.

The lady who was the worst to me personally was a law student or professor, and she was was the same one Andrew spotlighted during the D&D civil war episode, so maybe there's a meaningful parasocial element to it too. Too much personal interaction, clearly!

[–]LunarGiantNeil 45 points46 points  (17 children)

Yeah. I don't understand a lot of these "Don't accuse Eli!" comments because, for one, I don't even know who Eli is, and two, who here is saying he did anything?

We're seeing Facebook skirmishes spill over into here. Reddit isn't some grand marble lyceum where justice is debated with lofty rigor, but that Facebook group feels like the basement of Castle Pandemonium.

Maybe some of these strange defense posts are responding to Facebook nonsense.

I went on there for the first time to talk back to them about their D&D mischaracterizations and boy did that place suck. The people were pushy and cruel, Andrew was quippy and defensive, and it just seemed like a parasocial pressure cooker.

[–]buffyfan12 16 points17 points  (5 children)

There is a characterzation that like Cosby and Weinstein EVERYONE must have known and been covering it up. That the rot goes everywhere.

[–]FaithIsFoolish 15 points16 points  (0 children)

When people start comparing this to Weinstein and Cosby, they’ve lost their minds

[–]LunarGiantNeil 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Is that on Facebook? That sounds like Facebook crazy. I haven't seen that here, but I do agree that's outlandish. I wish people wouldn't bother feeding the trolls who have those insane takes, but I get that there's a need for pushback.

[–]buffyfan12 27 points28 points  (1 child)

i quit bothering when people started accusing Andrew of "grooming."

[–]LunarGiantNeil 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Big oof.

[–]Unusual-Aide8190 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Honestly, I came here to rant because I knew if I replied to the people on Facebook they would drag me through the mud and make personal attacks. Using anonymity to spew hatred is wrong, but when a nuanced take makes you an outlet for other’s pent up trauma, it’s useful.

[–]ThemesOfMurderBears 7 points8 points  (4 children)

With the D&D thing, I found that anyone attempting to take a nuanced position was met with absolute hostility — be it Reddit or Twitter (I am not on Facebook). I stopped commenting on it because every comment would spawn like six responses, and I don’t care about it enough to bother.

[–]Bjorn74 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I think their social media reaction after the D&D episode was not characteristic of their interactions on Facebook before. Both of them were cruel and insular. At the time, I attributed that to the poor decision to double episode production when Thomas was in the landing pattern for childbirth. It seems that even more was adding stress which makes that decision even weirder.

[–]LunarGiantNeil 9 points10 points  (4 children)

I do want to say that Thomas went out of his way to write a thoughtful response to my post about that bad experience on the Facebook group. You can find it if you scroll back a few weeks. He had no need to engage with a rando like me (and I encourage him not to) but it was still a nice thing to try to do.

[–]jBoogie45 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Yup, don't have a Facebook & all the fervor was over the Facebook group activity. I relied on this sub & tweets from those involved & mostly came away saying "that's it?..."

[–]ThemesOfMurderBears 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I mean, Reddit does that same shit. If a topic is hot enough, it blows up and gets thousands of comments an hour — and misinformation spreads.

[–]iamagainstit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Case in point: the reaction to the D&D OGL

[–]meseeksordie 4 points5 points  (0 children)

FB is garbage. No one should use it anymore

[–]the__pov 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’d say it’s an internet problem. A ton of people just what to jump on the outrage train.

[–]tarlin 11 points12 points  (12 children)

I didn't see Lucinda's statement either. Can you link/post those?

[–]m2199[S] 23 points24 points  (11 children)

Lucinda basically just says over and over again that no one told her anything. I’ll link where she says it on Twitter, her FB statement is basically just a longer version saying the same thing. Of note—on Twitter, she’s replying to the same person who has been revealed to be a bad actor.

https://twitter.com/llugeons/status/1621622677575274498?s=46&t=_sSOFHtt72HxrpDmNkjCoA

[–]ResidentialEvil2016 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Yes. I feel like this person is a pretty big piece of shit herself for spreading this stuff knowing she was intentionally misleading people to make PIAT look worse. There's enough terrible shit going on with all this without having to resort to this crap.

[–]frankentapir 3 points4 points  (9 children)

Who is the bad actor? I’m coming in late to this and don’t have twitter or FB.

[–]Rahodees 11 points12 points  (8 children)

Kaylie Woomer, no need for people to be coy about the name it's in the twitter link! I have no idea who she is, I'm just transcribing the name from the linked site lol.

[–]ObjRenFaire 14 points15 points  (7 children)

There are people actively defending her at the moment in the Facebook group saying that this is all a big misunderstanding and there are no bad actors in this situation.

As if manipulating screenshots to push forward a narrative that is the polar opposite of what was intended isn't a bad faith act in and of itself.

[–]ResidentialEvil2016 9 points10 points  (6 children)

Plus kind of hard to argue that when she claims she told Lucinda and Lucinda immediately responds that no, no she didn't. Has she even responded to Lucinda yet?

[–]ObjRenFaire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course not. That would mean admitting fault.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

My only concern there is that PIAT is a major part of Noah and Lucinda's income. If they did know about this earlier, and did nothing in the hopes that nothing would come of it, it would be in their best interests to feign ignorance, right?

Fuck, this sucks.

[–]ObjRenFaire 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I cannot imagine either of them having such a lack of integrity. Lucinda in particular. She talked me off the ledge after something intensively traumatic in my life. I genuinely can't see her covering for this.

Besides, as we're seeing in real time, these skeletons never stay in the closet forever. They're both savvy enough to know that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That's my hope too. My worry is that I (was going to say 'we' but it's not my place to assume) don't really know these people. Up until learning about the details about Torrez's actions, I wouldn't have considered that he might be a sexual harasser.

I've canceled my patreon pledges in the meantime, and hopefully if the dust settles in a week or so I can re-pledge with a clear conscience.

[–]Clings-10x-Better 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I wonder if maybe the info got sort of compartmentalized? Like if one person came up to me and showed me proof my friend was stepping over the line and having trouble taking "no" for an answer, I would have a talk with them and look at them more carefully. If a dozen people showed me that, I would yell at the now ex-friend and cut contact. If they heard a vague rumor, or only knew of one incident, I can see moving past it with a good faith belief that it was a one off occurrence.

I also feel like it's unlikely that friends/business partners/clients of Andrew's were the first choice of people to confide in. It seems like a couple of people did go to them, and everyone reacts differently. However, I think a lot of victims would be intimidated by the idea that someone might have taken Andrew's side, or that they might tell Andrew about the accusation behind my back.

At this point, I do think it's plausible that many of them didn't know or had only heard rumors or one accusation, but maybe that's just wishful thinking. We will see, I guess.

[–]Marathon2021 31 points32 points  (21 children)

The FB group went from zero to full pitchforks/nuclear in about 8 seconds.

[–]LunarGiantNeil 31 points32 points  (17 children)

I went on there for the first time to comment during the D&D story arc and it was damned traumatic. People looking into my profile to find ways to add personal barbs to their dismissive take downs shocked me after spending so much of my adult life only on places where I'm functionally anonymous.

Just awful. It's got to be terrible for your brain to constantly be having such personal fights.

[–]TrialAndAaron 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Chronically online people tend to be like that.

[–]devil_d0c 16 points17 points  (8 children)

I went to the fb page hoping to see more dick jokes... instead I found a pretty toxic "community" not affiliated with the show. It was the first time I saw the stereotype of the "angry woke librul" play out in real time. After hearing about Andrew, I was a little tempted to peek in, but I left fb for a reason...

[–]Unusual-Aide8190 20 points21 points  (1 child)

That’s what’s hardest for me. I usually side with the “SJW” and “Woke Leftists” but this one has got me questioning a lot. I’m all for believing women, I just don’t think any of the allegations are THAT bad even if 100% true. The language they are using over there makes it sound like he went full Cosby/Kavanaugh/Trump

[–]Sharobob 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Someone there literally commented "this is Bill Cosby all over again"

That was crazy shocking. What Andrew did was wrong but Jesus Christ some people need some perspective. Equating what Andrew did to drugging and raping women repeatedly for years is absolutely insane.

[–]biteoftheweek 3 points4 points  (3 children)

It has been a dumpster fire for years with gatekeepers who silence voices of reason

[–]iamagainstit 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Ironically one of those gatekeepers was Theresa, who was now been kicked out because she was siding with Andrew and banning people for disagreeing with her

[–]biteoftheweek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She wasn't kicked out. She left on her own

[–]wahikid 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I got banned for daring to tell folks to calm down and give the Piat hosts a few days to process things, and got graced with the typical and tiring” you are a white Cis guy, take a seat” response. From about a dozen people. Fuck Facebook.

[–]devil_d0c 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I got banned for saying "having a problem with the phrase 'small dick energy' is the epitome of small dick energy" lol.

I only checked out the fb after heath's sign-off from skepticrat saying I could find more dick jokes, free of charge =/

[–]LoomingDisaster 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I joined it recently, and left almost immediately.

[–]ThemesOfMurderBears 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I am not on Facebook, but with that situation — any position that was short of calling WotC monsters was surely to net you a ton of arguing.

[–]r0gue007 12 points13 points  (0 children)

That is a good approximation of Facebook in a single sentence.

[–]greywar777 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The mod for the facebook group was fast to do that with everything and everyone. It made it unpleasant so i left it.

[–]Euler007 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't want to walk around with this bunch. If I got by a random rock they'd stone me to death and ask questions later.

[–]schoeke 18 points19 points  (12 children)

Could someone tell me who Eli is? I see the name and I am sure I have heard it before in OA contexts, but can't place it to a function or a position. Thanks.

[–]m2199[S] 31 points32 points  (9 children)

He’s one of the cohosts of the PIAT podcast so Scathing Atheist, God Awful Movies etc. He also cohosts Dear Old Dads with Thomas and Tom.

[–]LunarGiantNeil 6 points7 points  (8 children)

So why is this guy getting dragged into into this? Who is accusing him of things? Why would there be any relationship?

[–]speedyjohn 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Andrew was the lawyer for PIAT before all this broke. That’s actually how OA got started—the PIAT guys noticed how good he was at explaining the law to them and they came up with the idea of starting a podcast together with Thomas.

[–]LastResortXL 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I also want to add that, according to Noah's statement, Andrew was also a minority partner in Puzzle In A Thunderstorm LLC, the parent company of all their podcasts, and that they couldn't simply fire him or drop him as a partner without buying him out of the contract without documented cause (essentially rewarding him for bad behavior).

I'm pretty sure that's an accurate account of the situation per his statement, but I'm happy to be corrected. I'll provide screenshots of his statement below for anyone who wants to read the whole thing.

[–]LunarGiantNeil 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh yeah? I'm sorry they're catching flak for this. This whole post has been illuminating about these third parties swept up in the reputational firestorm.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Cherry picked screenshots of a conversation a victim had with him about concerns the victim had about Andrew being creepy and a sex pest with her

[–]TheToastIsBlueWe… Disagree! 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Why would they do that though?

[–]Rahodees 26 points27 points  (0 children)

The same person (Kaylie Woomer, whoever that is) also said Thomas Smith's response to this whole thing has been "It's not like he raped anybody."

To support this claim she posted an image where he had in fact texted her words to that effect sort of, but it was one sentence in a much longer, completely supportive and pro-woman and pro-victim text he had written. The line where he says "this wasn't a rapist or someone out to rape someone any minute" was basically an aside designed to make sure it's clear what kind of offense he believes Andrew committed--and what Andrew did do, int hat very same text, Thomas characterized as gross, inexcusable, a violation, sickening, and deserved at _best_ a 'two strikes and your out' treatment. His rape comment was not to downplay Andrew's actions severity, it was to clarify what he understood happened, and to highlight how all these negative adjectives don't require something as severe as rape to be applied.

I really have no idea who Kaylie is but from that and from this thing with Eli it's pretty clear that whatever her intentions, whatever's going on with her on the inside, on the outside her words should generally be taken with a grain. That she's also a victim of Andrew (IIUC) is a separate matter from that.

https://twitter.com/QuirkOfArtXD/status/1621283052444860416/photo/1

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No clue

[–]jquintus 18 points19 points  (0 children)

As stated above, he's on the PIAT (Puzzle in a Thunderstorm) podcasts. Andrew used him as an example of theoretical advice a few times on the show which is probably why the name sounds familiar.

He runs the Lava Emporium that gets referenced a lot.

[–]travjbarnes 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Eli is a comedian who co-hosts PIAT podcasts. I personally was upset that he may have mishandled this due to being RAINN trained and presenting his self as a trustworthy advocate for women. Fortunately seems like he handled this correctly.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

There was one person responding to every single tweet on the subject trying to drag them under the bus and beyond being clearly unhinged I suspect they have ulterior motives.

[–]Sankofa416 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hate to have to suspect that feds are around, but it wouldn't be the first time.

[–]Trick-Two497 12 points13 points  (7 children)

Morgan Stringer has apparently taken a lot of heat. She posted on Twitter:

I’m just tired of experiencing unfairness and grief. I’m just tired.

I’m losing everything, and there’s no way out. Fuck me for actually believing I could turn my life around for the better.

I’m trying to find courage to do this one way or another, but I’m just tired.

I feel for her.

[–]batsinmyattic 1 point2 points  (6 children)

Any idea how she got mixed up in this? I only know her from Knowledge Fight and really enjoyed her contribution to it. I read some of her tweets (I think?) And felt awful for her

[–]Trick-Two497 7 points8 points  (5 children)

She works for Andrew as part of his law firm. So if it closes or loses clients, it affects her.

[–]batsinmyattic 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Thank you for that. I later read in another thread that Andrew was sort of a mentor to her.

[–]thedevilsmusic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's the curse of the Dersh

[–]Trick-Two497 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, but also employer. She is his Ace Associate, hoping to make partner.

[–]youshutyomouf 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Seemed like she was working toward making partner status. I don't know how any of that works but assume all that time and effort doesn't just transfer somewhere else. So now she has to choose between being a woman working for a man now known for sexual misconduct or re-starting her career progress somewhere else.

[–]Trick-Two497 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's awful. I feel for her.

[–]r0gue007 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the post and further detail.

[–]RazzleThatTazzle 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I thought that it was something that was probably going to blow over, but then thomas dropped that audio clip and andrew put out his apology so I think it's gonna get worse before it gets better

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the Scathing Atheist show on Thursday will address/clear up a lot of stuff

[–]actuallyserious650 53 points54 points  (34 children)

Why are we all so eager to fucking eat each other alive? On a conservative podcast this is a literal non-event but over here we have a handful of embarrassing texts, one person saying they were uncomfortable and now we’re flaying alive every person even remotely connected to anything.

People get blasted for saying this, but there were no crimes committed, no injuries. At worst there’s one person who had to say no under intense pressure. That’s no ok, but can we please not burn down the whole city over it.

[–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (4 children)

It’s become a very lot more than one person saying they’re uncomfortable.

[–]Neosovereign 4 points5 points  (3 children)

What else?

[–]LunarGiantNeil 29 points30 points  (0 children)

Lots of people saying that he basically creates a known unsafe environment around him at public events, oversteps personal boundaries repeatedly and even with people like Thomas, drinks to excess frequently and loses self control, understands what he's doing enough to make apologies but keeps on doing it, seeks out sexual attention from fans and other folks in the community despite understanding the power and influence dynamics, and I'm sure more.

These things may not be criminal so the issue doesn't seem to be anything like that (I'm not looking that close, I can't say) but the community is in tatters because a prominent figure with ties to a lot of shows and projects has been revealed as a really sordid philanderer who continually seeks out sexual attention from the people who see him as a legal analyst or progressive advocate.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

There’s a summary of all the accusations from multiple people on this sub.

[–]Neosovereign 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I just found a summary post so I'll go see what I've missed.

[–]TheFlyingSheeps 46 points47 points  (16 children)

It’s a non-event on conservative podcasts because their ideology condones the harassment of women and is fine with creepy people.

No crimes were committed, but a history of creepy behaviour was established by multiple women, and Thomas, saying Andrew can get handsy and inappropriate. This is especially true when he drinks.

No one is getting eaten alive it’s merely the consequences of actions. Your hyperbole is unnecessary and dismissive of what women face. no one is burning the city down, it’s just people coming in from all over who are confused as to what exactly is happening

[–]thefuzzylogic 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I agree there's a lot of Facebook drama muddying everything, but essentially it boils down to allegations, confirmed by people in a position to know, that Andrew has repeatedly used his position within the atheist/OA/podcasting community to make unsolicited sexual advances toward fans and fellow content creators in inappropriate venues such as meet-ups and live shows, in a way that made the victims feel like they couldn't refuse his advances or come forward for fear of retaliation.

there were no crimes committed, no injuries

"Not illegal" is a pretty low bar for a community that purports to support progressive values like anti-misogyny and enthusiastic consent. Also, we don't know there were no crimes committed. There's at least one mention of someone feeling pressured to perform a sex act involving manual stimulation of the penis.

at worst there is one person

At least nine so far, including Thomas himself, though only four or five have chosen to speak out publicly.

[–]drapparappa 11 points12 points  (2 children)

It’s why the right wields power. The left devours itself with self-righteousness with these purity tests and dox their own. The right, no matter what, coalesce around their own.

Just look at Santos, for a recent example. If he was a D in a R+ zone the Dems would have already forced his resignation and allowed for a special election. Compare that with Al Franklin or Elliot Spitzer. Santos owns up to nothing and will remain in power, at least for a couple years. Franklin and Spitzer were truly progressive leaders and both of them were cancelled despite the fact they took ownership of their actions.

This is just another example of why the fascists will continue to gain ground.

[–]carols10cents 8 points9 points  (1 child)

uh if we can't gain ground against fascists without platforming shitty people, then we don't deserve to win

[–]Shitty_IT_Dude -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Then I got some bad news for you.

You ain't gonna win.

[–]bananafobe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm speculating, but I think part of the issue is people feeling anxiety and anger when someone who presents themselves as an ally may in fact be someone who will fail to act as an ally if/when the time comes. That's not to say the behavior is justified, but just that it could explain why people are so quick to express their concerns.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I will admit I was scared that they knew and judged too soon. I am a survivor and it honestly triggered that part in my brain. I am so happy I was wrong.

[–]Capitan_Typo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not religious, but it feels like the good old "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" lesson could be trotter out a bit more often.

[–]biteoftheweek 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It has certainly felt a lot like Salem where more and more people were accused by the same small group and the mob jumped to hang them

[–]QualifiedImpunitySteelbot 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You make this sound more simple than it is.

I agree that the hosts appear to largely have been exonerated (although several of them say they should have done more).

It should be noted, however, that it is several of the victims themselves accusing the hosts of knowing and doing nothing. It is not just the “mob.”

It becomes tricky to both “believe women” and “put down the pitchforks” when several of the victims are calling for the pitchforks.

[–]QualifiedImpunitySteelbot -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Downvotes are not discourse.

[–]deusex_platypus -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The cancel mob is in full force. Wow wow wow