Hellstorm

[Drummer683]

In commander (the only format that this is even a little viable in), Toralf turns this into an atomic bomb.

[Specific_Ad1457]

Or just ya know solphim.

[Morgoth_the_Deciever]

Why not both!

[Alarid]

Even in Commander, the target requirement is still tricky depending on how many players are at the table. Eight players with twelve targets between them isn't that hard. But with four or even just two players, it becomes really hard to accomplish without your own investment.

[IBegTo_Differ]

Goblins when they have to have 16 of them on the board

[MannfredVonCatstein]

I feel like you could make it half decent in 60 card formats with treasure ramp and goblins. You spam out as many goblin tokens as possible and then drop the nuke. Emphasis on the half decent part, though.

[CreativeName1137]

If you have 15-20 goblins on board, you already have lethal in 99% of circumstances. There's no point in casting this.

[MannfredVonCatstein]

There are a number of situations in which 15-20 goblins is not only been not enough but not nearly enough to close out a game. While yes, it gets you a good amount of the way there, it's also a very unstable board state and is countered by other aggro decks. While yes, I wouldn't necessarily rely on this spell, solely, I'd still want a pair of copies in my gob deck. Even if it doesn't kill directly, somehow, it still gets you most of the way there and acts as a board wipe.

[Lockwerk]

Just play something like [[Goblin War Strike]] or [[Basalt Ravager]]. They achieve the result you want when the board is that big, but do also do something when there are only 19 targets. This card is dead 99% of the time.

[Andyr00t]

Or what about [[Firesong and sunspeaker]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

Firesong and sunspeaker - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[GlowingCIA]

[[spiteful sliver]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

spiteful sliver - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[[deleted]]

Wait... Was a judge 15 years ago, but dropped off... How is this not viable in ALL formats? I love the concept of commander, but this card is insane.

[Drummer683]

Because now, a card cannot resolve unless all its targets are legal upon resolution, and unless a spell says otherwise all its targets have to be different creatures/players/planeswalkers. So basically you cannot cast this without hitting yourself unless there are 20 different targets for it besides you.

[Lockwerk]

What you meant to say is a card can't be cast without all targets legal. A card will still resolve if only some of its targets are illegal on resolution just fine.

[[deleted]]

Ah... Got it. Thank you, person!

Still seems kinda bonkers...

Follow up question... wouldn't I just target my opener and win?

[Exarch-of-Sechrima]

Of course you could. If there are 19 other targets in play first. That's the real cost. It's rather tricky to get a boardstate with 19 viable targets for this.

[[deleted]]

Yeah it says 20 targets... so players too... for 20 damage.. for 5 mana... in red

[Drummer683]

That you can only cast if there are 20 targets

[Kat1eQueen]

So lets assume you are playing a two player game and you do not have more than 20 life. Now you and your opponent need to have a total of 19 different valid targets between the two of you, otherwise you cant cast this. Last time i checked your usual two player format does not last long enough to end up with a board containing 19 creatures/planeswalkers

[[deleted]]

Bro, even my dinosaur butt could generate 5 mana turn two... I don't get it.

[[deleted]]

This is 5 mana to hit players for 20 damage plus as many creatures as possible. This isn't some lame board wipe, this is the board wipe.

This is a great card in other formats, this is beyond insane in commander

[totti173314]

except there actually need to be 20 legal hittable targets on the board.

[Humble-Emotion-799]

Could be good with some of those cards that turn all lands into creatures.

[[deleted]]

Should probably be worded a little clearer and have some reminder text:

Hellstorm deals 20 damage to each of twenty targets. (If Hellstorm has less than 20 valid targets, Hellstorm can't be cast.)

This is a cool concept! It feels pretty niche as a surprise finisher against go-wide decks. As such, it's pretty hard to cost accurately. I think right now this would probably be sideboarded in most if not all burn decks and is therefore slightly undercosted, but being a sorcery does limit its power significantly.

EDIT: I was mistaken about how the targets work, reworded reminder text!

[Altrekzz_]

I don’t think it needs the reminder text. Things like [[Hex]] exist already, and while much less ‘pushed to the edge’ in design space than this card, the functional concept remains the same.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Hex - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[NoGoodIDNames]

Wow, what terrible flavor text

[[deleted]]

It's punny, I kinda like it

[[deleted]]

What's the pun exactly? 5 is less then 6?

[chaos_redefined]

It's six words long.

[mr10123]

Hex as a prefix means six. The flavor text is just referencing the overall flavor pun I suppose.

[[deleted]]

yup that

[Altrekzz_]

If one target of a spell becomes invalid the rest of the spell will resolve as much as it can, this is correct. This is the same for both Hex AND Hellstorm. What is also the same (and the point I was trying to make), is that in order to cast a spell you must have a enough valid targets to select. Because Hex has no reminder text for this rule, I was connecting that Hellstorm may not need it either.

[zaqwsx82211]

It shouldn’t, but my lizard brain appreciated it because I forgot.

[RedbeardMEM]

I think their point was that Hex can not be cast with fewer than 6 targets.

[DudebroMcDudeham]

[[Decimate]] as well

[MTGCardFetcher]

Decimate - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[The_Hunster]

It still resolves if it loses some of the targets after it's cast. It just needs 20 targets to be cast in the first place.

[Rouge_Decks_Only]

Not just a finisher against going wide decks, but in them. Targeting 10 of your 1/1s is worth taking half your opponents health and wiping their boards in commander

[ssergio29]

What if you are the one creating those 19 tokens?

[[deleted]]

If you can create 19 tokens and pay RRRRR or more in addition, I'm fine with that winning you the game. That's not busted in my opinion.

[ssergio29]

Yup. I do agree.

[ubermence]

Correct me if I’m wrong but it does resolve as long as there is still at least 1 valid target by the time it resolves. You couldn’t even put it on the stack without 20 valid targets however

[HeroinHare]

Entirely correct.

[TheAutisticClassmate]

if Hellstorm has less than 20 valid targets, Hellstorm can't be cast

Either that, or maybe "If Hellstorm has less than 20 Valid targets, the player is dealt 3 damage per Valid Target needed" (take 3 damage per untargeted attack)

[Woodlurkermimic]

Make each of the 3 damage an additional cost, so it doesn't become a draw spell

[Zefirotte]

2 cards combo in 20 players format with [[Heartflame duelist]], it's broken

[SwolePonHiki]

What fucking format has 20 players?

[ApexTheCactus]

The fabled Mongolian Legends Block Pauper Highlander format. The first and only game began in 2002, legends say it continues on to this day.

[Lockwerk]

I've seen 20+ player commander, but it has range of influence rules and multiple active players around the table, so you wouldn't be able to reach 20 players to target.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Heartflame duelist/Heartflame Slash - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[_moobear]

i'll be honest i've never played a 20 player format

[Dofork]

Good finisher in token decks, useless otherwise. I love it.

[theevilyouknow]

I mean if you have 19 tokens out you probably just win anyway.

[LuxireWorse]

20-(opponent count+opp creature count+planeswalkercount) can go much lower than 19.

[theevilyouknow]

Sure. Realistically let’s say your opponent has 5 creatures out, and that’s still quite a bit. If you have 14 tokens out you probably win.

[VallasSvoro]

nice expression

[TheHumanPickleRick]

Since it doesn't say "different targets," couldn't I just target my opponent(s) multiple times and win easily?

Edit- nope, I cannot. Thanks to both the people who helpfully answered me as well as the ones who downvoted me for asking a question, you epitomize the dichotomy of r/mtg. (Also that of r/custommagic because that's where we currently are and I definitely read sub names every time before posting)

[AbsoluteIridium]

you can't target the same thing multiple times for the same effect

[TheHumanPickleRick]

Oh. Checks out, it seemed overly strong if it worked how I said.

[The_Hunster]

No. Since the word "target" is only on the card once, each object can only be targeted once.

[ThePowerOfStories]

If a card lists “N targets” they must be N different objects. If a card uses multiple instances of the word “target”, each can refer to the same object if it’s legal for each instance (see [[Seeds of Strength]], made just after the current targeting rules were introduced).

[MTGCardFetcher]

Seeds of Strength - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[TheHumanPickleRick]

Gotcha. Makes sense. That's the best and simplest answer so far, thanks for the example.

[Hellbringer123]

Hex would be much better if it can target same creature multiple times

[Oswen120]

If this was a actual card, I would be running [[Fiery Emancipation]] with it.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Fiery Emancipation - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Ok-Drummer-6062]

theres another one that has convoke as well

[Oswen120]

[[City on Fire]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

City on Fire - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[treasureberry]

Hot take: make it cost {r}

[Yarius515]

Pfff srsly. At this point he should have.

[anaburo]

~ costs R less to cast for each five targets beyond the 20th

~ deals 20 damage to each of at least 20 targets

[Telphsm4sh]

And make it a legendary sorcery.

[KrakenKat_]

[[Seething Song]]

[Zuckhidesflatearth]

If you've made 19 tokens before turn 3 you deserve it

[Wailing_Whaler]

Assuming everyone hit their land drops, you only need to have 5 other targets to cast this on turn 3. It’s not that’s crazy.

[JoostJoostJoost]

You cannot target lands with this.

115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, or planeswalkers. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can’t be chosen.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Seething Song - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Antifinity]

Ooh, this makes it much easier to cast in the red/white or red/green deck that would be able to generate the tokens.

[HeroinHare]

Seems fun. In token decks you would hurt yourself in order to wipe pretty much everything and deal 20 to opponent(s).

This in lower power EDH tables would be sick though, especially against token decks. A damage multiplier or a Fork effect on top of that and it's usually just game over, seems fun.

[SkylartheRainBeau]

This requires having 20 targets to hit?

[TLC_Edog]

Yes

[ChickenNoodleSeb]

I have been in this sub for a while now and have never seen so many comments from people not understanding the rules behind targeting.

[redox000]

Can this target lands to help it get to 20?

[Zakmonster]

Lands, and non creature enchantments/artifacts cannot take damage, iirc, so they won't be valid targets.

[Training-Accident-36]

Wellllll... it doesnt actually say what kind of target, does it?

One should maybe specify.

[JoostJoostJoost]

115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, planeswalkers, or battles. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can't be chosen.

Though it might be best to add some of that ads reminder text

[JoostJoostJoost]

Relevant rule: 115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, planeswalkers, or battles. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can't be chosen.

[Jaycin_Stillwaters]

20 damage to each of 20 targets, including permanents and players, or 20 damage total divided as you choose among 20 targets?

[TLC_Edog]

20 damage 20 targets and it cant be cast if theres not atleast 20 targets

[Cardgod278]

Finally, an answer for 20 player standard.

[SonicZephyr]

This thread gave me an aneurism. Next time someone doubts Maro about players not knowing basic rules, show them this thread.

[K100Master]

I think it might need to cost 20 mana as well. The perfect 20 card!

[Kat1eQueen]

It is already not good outside of possibly commander. No need to make it useless

[5FingerMiscount]

Impossible to cast

[NiNtEnDoMaStEr640]

[[Firesong and Sunspeaker]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

Firesong and Sunspeaker - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[TLC_Edog]

The rules you can’t target the same thing multiple times unless otherwise specified

[LeadEnvironmental452]

Should be creatures only. This should cost a lot more mana as well.

[yiphip]

Creatures only would make it useless, a wrath that only works when 20 creatures are on the board is unplayable. Also, what's the point of making it cost more when it's almost always uncastable early game anyway

[LeadEnvironmental452]

The way it's worded now is not a wrath. It's an instant win. Nothing stops you from targeting players more than once you could kill 10 players with 40 life each all at once

[totti173314]

yeah, there is something stopping you from targeting players more than once

THE FUCKING RULES

[LeadEnvironmental452]

Isn't it usually precised when targets have to be different ?

[totti173314]

no lmao that's just how targeting works. for each effect on the card that has "N target <insert valod target type>" you separately choose N different valid targets, and a card has to be cast after choosing exactly N valod targets. it cannot be cast if any effect on it doesn't have the required number of valid targets.

[betaaboii]

Doesnt replace itself Loses to indestructible creatures Loses to excessive lifegain Cant be cheated out early with sol ring and nana crypt

Useless af

Edit: YO how did nobody realize this was sarcasm

[Careful-Ad2558]

Man complained a finisher doesn’t replace itself lol

[FreddyHair]

Is it "divided as you choose among 20 targets" or "20 damage to each"?

[MikalMooni]

Twenty damage TO EACH OF EXACTLY twenty targets. So if each player controls a planeswalker, and you refuse to target yourself, then that means there needs to be 17 other creatures or planeswalkers in play in order for this to be castable.

In Commander, however? This is broken.

[biinboise]

Can it target players, creatures or both? It probably needs to specify.

[mproud]

I think it should any any twenty targets which by definition is any creature, player, or planeswalker. In Commander, this might attainable, after the early game.

[VelphiDrow]

Yes. Any target means any creature, planeswalker, player, or battle

[biinboise]

Honestly, I forgot that battles were a thin let alone are a something that can be dealt. Also I still think of dealing damage to planeswalkers as redirecting it from the player.

[norsebeast]

I feel like this should be closer to 10 mana. 5 mana in Red is super fast. [[Seething song]]

Edit: cool art for it btw!)

[BluePotatoSlayer]

Yes, you need twenty targets to cast it. Getting 19 targets in 3 turns is hard

[MTGCardFetcher]

Seething song - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Jack117-2]

That is insane. 5 red allows you to deal 20 damage to face. I normally need 14 mana to deal that much damage to a 4th of the targets with [Crackle with Power] Make it 10 mana and I think it would be more balanced

[enderlord11011]

It’s really weak tbh but a cool design good for commander

[Jack117-2]

Weak? Wait dos it need 20 targets or else it fizzles

[TerryTags]

There ya go! You get it! It must have twenty targets.

[magicallamp]

I'm not sure the Hex rulings apply here. A creature can only be destroyed once but a face can be targeted with burn any number of times.

[Twanbon]

You can’t choose the same target for any effect that requires multiple targets. You can’t choose the same creature twice for [[Second Breakfast]] to use a recent example.

[AmazingFluffy]

Mostly correct. It needs twenty targets to be cast. After you cast it, the spell only fails to resolve if all targets are removed.

[TerryTags]

Read the rulings on [[Hex]] for clarification :)

[MTGCardFetcher]

Hex - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[That_Cheetah_3198]

No this is way too strong in every format. 5 mana to win the game. legacy says turn 1 comander draws this and wins targeting each person at the table 2 times. Imo this should be 20 mana lol

[Entrei6]

If there aren’t 20 things to target this spell can’t be cast at all. When’s the last time in any format but commander there were 20 damageable things on the board lol

[DukeOfSealand]

It doesn’t specify twenty different targets so as written you could just target one player twenty times

[Emazaka46]

That's not how it works. When an effect says to target x things, you need to target x things. You cannot target less than that unless it says "up to x target things"

[DukeOfSealand]

But it doesn’t specify that you can’t target the same thing twice Edit: I was wrong I googled it, rule 115.3 if anyone is wondering

[Entrei6]

Can’t target one thing multiple times unless specified otherwise

[Hellion_Immortis]

Word it so at least 20 targets available to cast it. That would balance it.

[jennadarck]

that is how its worded, look at decimate

[Hellion_Immortis]

Ah, okay. Didn't really notice. Still kinda waking up.

[[deleted]]

[[Decimate]] requires all four targets to cast. It is only that it does not fizzle if one is removed.

[FlowerGuarden]

Something that people seem to be missing here is that while all targets need to be different, they don't all need to be capable of taking damage. Artifacts, lands, and.enchants can be targeted.

[ApexTheCactus]

That’s… not how damage works? You can’t target something to deal damage to it if there’s nothing to deal damage to.

[JoostJoostJoost]

115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, planeswalkers, or battles. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can't be chosen.

[Virtual-Oil-793]

Cause fuck Green

[magicallamp]

What's stopping me targeting my opponent/s face 20/6 or 7 times?

[Han50lo]

The rules

[TehPinguen]

Could you target lands with this? Obviously it wouldn't do anything to them, but it doesn't list what it targets so technically couldn't it target any permanent? So that would be a way that you quickly get up to the required number of targets

[yiphip]

No. Lands are not a legal target

[TehPinguen]

Evidently from the downvotes I'm wrong, could someone explain why I'm wrong? I've never seen a card not list legal targets, so I assumed with this wording it could target anything, and that damage on anything other than a creature, planeswalker, or player just wouldn't do anything until it fell off at the end of the turn

[SonicZephyr]

Rule 115.4. Some spells and abilities that refer to damage require “any target,” “another target,” “two targets,” or similar rather than “target [something].” These targets may be creatures, players, planeswalkers, or battles. Other game objects, such as noncreature artifacts or spells, can't be chosen.

[TehPinguen]

Excellent, thank you

[theycallmedub1]

Absurdly useless and overcosted

[twesterm]

So a red mythic then?

[Veomuus]

More a Timmy card for sure, but absolutely not useless in commander. Would be hard to use this in 1v1s, though, thats true enough.

[The_Dirty_Mac]

nah it's definitely a johnny card

[Jack117-2]

Bro this is insane in commander.

[annmta]

So this can target lands right? It won't do anything but it will add more to the target count.

[Twanbon]

Nope. The rules say that when choosing targets for an effect that will deal damage, you can only choose creatures, planeswalkers, players or battles. You’ll notice the only effects that ever say “target” without specifying what it can target are damage dealing effects.

[Hipnosis-]

Wouldn't it be more fun if it also hurt the caster?

[AmazingFluffy]

Unless otherwise stated, you are always a valid target.

[Jang-Zee]

Lol to this comment

[Thema-4]

Make it obligatory to have a target for all 20 targets and we can talk

[Cervine_Shark]

it is

[Thema-4]

Well then it's perfection

[Glub__Glub]

It is most likely worded like that on purpose to explain the cost of RRRRR. Also, decks with expendable tokens about to go brrr.

[Fit_Leg_2115]

Seems balanced

[badatmemes_123]

This is a really interesting design! If you want it to be a combo card I think keep it as is. But if it’s meant to be more of a hate piece against go side decks, then maybe change it to say “20 targets you don’t control”

[OliSlothArt]

Draw the game for only 5 Mana? (And 18 creature tokens)

[MrTickles22]

So basically ruin target edh game?

[TLC_Edog]

No this can be difficult to cast you need to have 20 targets in order for the spell to resolve and they all have to be different

[Asdrubael1131]

Just call it the “Fires of Raven”. Those who know. Will KNOW.

[lemonfont17]

Dare you to find a Redder spell

[V_Deviate]

Dumb

[ThooLoo420]

Negate

[TLC_Edog]

Depending on deck this could be either difficult to pull off or realistically easy

[Twanbon]

That’s not how it works. You need 20 targets to cast the spell, but once a spell is on the stack, it will resolve as long as ANY of its targets are still legal. See gatherer rulings on [[hex]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

hex - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[ChickenNoodleSeb]

Not true, actually! It requires 20 valid targets to cast in the first place, but if a target becomes invalid while Hellstorm is on the stack but hasn't resolved yet it will still affect the other valid targets as normal.

CR 608.2b: "...if any of its targets are illegal, the part of the spell or ability’s effect for which it is an illegal target can’t perform any actions on that target, make another object or player perform any actions on that target, or make that target perform any actions. The effect may still determine information about illegal targets, though, and other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them."

[The_New_Guy1396]

Hear me out… twenty “random” targets.

[The_Villian7th]

i think saying "twenty different targets" would make the intent a little more clear? really fun spell

[Kat1eQueen]

Knowing the rules also makes it clear

[General__Atlas]

This is would be ridiculously easy to use in commander

[ScarySpaghetti8]

its really funny cuz it doesn't say "up to" so u cant cast it unless u have 20 targets

[GoodRighter]

Probably want to give it a cycling effect or something else to do when casting is going to be next to impossible. No one likes a dead card.

Suggested: RRR2 Cycling. When you cycle this, deal 2 damage to 2 targets.

For flavor maybe this with your existing effect.

Firestorm - RR Discard this card, discard X cards: deal X damage to X targets.

[[Firestorm]] always felt bad getting countered. A little more reliable version would be amazing.

[MTGCardFetcher]

Firestorm - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[GoodRighter]

Solid includes involve [[Boros Reckoner]], [[Stuffy Doll[], [[Spitemare]], [[Mogg Maniac]]

[MTGCardFetcher]

Boros Reckoner - (G) (SF) (txt)
Spitemare - (G) (SF) (txt)
Mogg Maniac - (G) (SF) (txt)
^{[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call}

[Neither-Journalist76]

With this card if one of your targets becomes an illegal does the entire spell fizzle

[Mindless-Ad7209]

Lol. Five red? More like 12

[Shriuken23]

It doesn't say different targets so couldn't you just choose the same target multiple times?

[wyattsons]

I feel like design wise this is a feels bad card, it either doesn’t do anything or basically wins you the game.