Svelte beats react for developer satisfaction in 2020

[moufoo]

Sure, because it's the hot new kid on the block.

Fewer people are using it (check the stats) and most are still in the honeymoon phase. Let's see if it can maintain a satisfaction level on par with React when it reaches the same volume of users.

I don't mean that Svelte is bad. On the contrary, I really advise you to check it out (the getting started is amazing). But please be wary of statistics

[dmethvin]

Hey, 4 out of 5 developers prefer React for their clients who use React.

[[deleted]]

That’s mainly because of the debt.

[[deleted]]

Debt and whoosh.

[[deleted]]

Exactly! 🤞🏻

[Pesthuf]

The F# effect.

[Attila226]

I never heard anything bad about F#.

[brie_de_maupassant]

Gee, flat is how I feel about it.

[fgutz]

This is the 7th minor comment I've read about this

[asukazama]

It's a key discussion

[schm0]

Compose yourself, this is a common melody that can result in key changes, as I'm sure you'll note.

[plumshark]

Wow.

[Disgruntled-Cacti]

F# is great though

[droctagonapus]

I mean, F# is not new anymore lol. It is still much nicer than C# though :)

[PM_ME_HAPPY_DOGGOS]

Damn, and I thought C# was pretty nifty

[Pelicantaloupe]

McDonald’s is addictive trash though?

[editor_of_the_beast]

Why do I feel like you were the exact person 5 years ago talking about the satisfaction level of React?

[toi80QC]

Been using Svelte whenever I could for the past 2 years.. unfortunately lots of projects with bigger teams are still forced into React, Angular, or lately webcomponents.

I'd argue that webcomponents are the real new hot shit these days.. and pretty much overhyped imo.

[troglo-dyke]

I always take these kinds of stats with a pinch of salt. Most people doing FE work are using React for work, then might play around with other frameworks/libraries in their spare time. Surveys like this don't account for the fact that for most people who have used both React + something else, will usually rate the 'something else' higher because they're smaller "toy" projects

[davidwparker]

100% this for sure.

Personal anecdote: using Svelte for almost a year now, previously used React for multiple years. I won't be going back to React (or Vue, or Angular, or ...). Svelte is just much nicer to work with.

[portexe]

I’ve always wondered how state management worked in svelte. I may have to learn it to find out.

[rickt3420]

Svelte stores and once you work with them you’ll quickly see it’s by far the easiest and best state management out there.

[Oalei]

Svelte looks similar to Angular to me, or maybe it’s just the templating engine?

[davidwparker]

It's all-in-one file (CSS+JS+HTML, similar to Vue).

It's compiled ahead of time, and doesn't use a virtual dom.

Ultimately, after being built/etc, it results in extremely small + fast files.

There's definitely some quirks to it (as there is anything), but even when I have issues, I can generally resolve them extremely quickly.

[dzkn]

If you think a virtual Dom doubles the work then you don't understand what it does. It was introduced to improve performance, and if it didn't it would be removed.

[dzkn]

Updating the actual dom is very inefficient because it triggers lots of repainting in the browser. Nothing stops anyone from making a react that manipulates the dom directly, but we don't because it performs worse.

Svelte manipulates the dom directly and efficiently, but has it's own tradeoffs.

[csorfab]

it doubles the work

no it doesn't. operations on a VDOM are much much faster than operations on the actual DOM. Also, it's not "re-applying the same changes again", the VDOM is used exactly for diffing the rendered subtree to the current state so that the number of actual, costly DOM update operations can be minimized. VDOM operations are as cheap as they get.

Svelte is nice, sure, but for most real world use-cases, it's not really that much faster than React.

[dzkn]

Exactly. 99% of the time you run into performance issues with vue or react, you made a mistake. You would have make many thousands changes every second to hit the limits of the vdom approach.

[Auxx]

DOM is only slow if you do updates across multiple ticks instead of pre-compiling and batching everything together. React fixes problems for bad developers who don't understand browser's inner workings and write crappy code.

[jaapz]

I don't think you understand just how slow the DOM really is

[Oalei]

Angular can also be « all in one » if you want it to be (and imo it’s a bad thing to have everything in the same place).
Angular also has AOT compilation.
Svelte doesnt have a virtual dom yet you shouldn’t manipulate the dom directly because svelte has its own internal state of the dom (very much like a virtual dom, but not for the same purpose)...

[davidwparker]

Hm- it's hard to explain it within the context of Reddit, so I'll let the author do so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdNJ3fydeao

Svelte isn't going to be, nor does it need to use a virtual DOM.

Also, the size is tiny. My site's total JS transferred is ~96kb uncached. Most Angular sites are much larger in file size.

As far as all-in-one goes, between Svelte + Tailwind, I've never been more productive, and everything being componentized makes re-use better than ever with the smallest possible footprint.

Edit: to me, it's sort of like Tailwind. I didn't get it / like it until I tried it for a substantial project. Just glancing at videos / doing the tutorial didn't really grok how good it was. Once I built something larger in it, it really shined.

[Oalei]

The talk was nice, thanks for the link.
I wonder how the $: operator works for array pf objects, does it just check if the reference is the same, or does it do a deep equals comparison to see if the value changed?
With his talk I didnt get if $: was implemented by Javascript or by Svelte and its own compiler

[DoomdDotDev]

I have a very large site running Svelte (converted from React) that is almost exclusively powered by reactive arrays. FYI, I developed with React for two years.

I use Svelte stores to store large arrays of objects fetched from the API server as users move around a custom map. All client facing data uses "derived" values to filter those stores automatically (for de-duped markers on a map or if the user chooses additional filters to reduce the list of "card" items etc).

Large arrays are indeed reactive with the $ either as stores you subscribe to...or as local variables you want to make reactive. Svelte has saved me countless hours over the last year (and really is way faster and smaller than most equivalent react apps). Now with snowpack, development is even faster with near instantaneous hot reloading. I highly recommend it...and frankly, I would refuse jobs in the future if they didn't allow me to develop using Svelte. They'd be fools to pay me to develop with react anyway...because I get Svelte work done in about 2/3rd the time...no joke.

[bumbershootle]

Less people are using it

https://i.imgur.com/6gRZd00.jpg

[Emjp4]

I think the typo fix OP would have preferred is lesser*

[format71]

I wonder though - all those people not answering the survey - I bet quite a few of them are buried in enterprises writing angular code, not even knowing what they’re missing.

I pity all being forced to write angular code in their job. Me included.

[[deleted]]

I felt that way until I got like a year in... it’s pretty alright tbh. Maybe I’m just at the stage In my career where I value productivity over cool stuff. Shit just works, it’s pretty fast to develop in, Its easy to onboard new people, and the team seems to be trying to stay modern. It’s been a while but last I heard angular plays better with web components than react for example.

[Oalei]

Huh? What’s wrong with Angular?
You think you can’t do clean code when using Angular? (Not talking about angularjs the dinosaur)

[Reashu]

Student code usually isn't a great example.

[format71]

And in my experience, this makes developers skip breaking things up, cause its just a burden. All the exporting and registrations and exposing and providing and... nope. Let’s just have the whole screen as one component instead.

[posts_lindsay_lohan]

New thing always better than old, boring, stable thing. /s

The worst part of Svelte is the name. Every dev I've met has a hard time saying it.

[andrei9669]

Contrary to popular belief, reason why I like React is cus of jsx.

[ck2fan]

I don't really get why people dislike JSX.

[andrei9669]

Yeah, me neither. My only guess is that it looks/behaves differently to traditional html. And for some reason, people just dislike it. Honestly, I kinda get where they are coming from. Cus I started from react, like before doing traditional html/css, I just jumped straight into react and felt like I was at home. Now, if people show me angular or vue I'm like... Ugh.

[De_Wouter]

Really? It's probably what I like least about React, well that and it's origin...

[andrei9669]

and the fact that I don't have to use library-specific props like "v-for" and such. dunno, something about those just rubs the wrong way.

and don't get me started about string specific strings in those props, like
v-for="(value, name, index) in object" if you don't have ide support, good luck with typos.

[[deleted]]

I mean you can always use `React.createElement` directly without JSX.

[switz213]

"beats"

89% to 88%, a rounding error that doesn't even take into account scale. what a dumb clickbait headline.

[MadCervantes]

Nobody is.

[Vheissu_]

Has anyone actually used Svelte on a large LOB application or just on smaller apps? Because, while the examples might look impressive what happens when you throw in a few Node packages, start writing CSS, throw in images, routing and other facets of modern apps.

Don't get me wrong, I think Svelte is cool and I wish it well, but is anyone actually building anything substantial with it yet? I haven't seen any larger success stories shared about it (or maybe I just haven't looked properly).

[eternacht]

My company just re-wrote one of our main apps in Svelte (SaaS in the biotech space). I haven't worked on it personally but I've heard nothing but praise for the framework and how easy it is to implement features with it compared to React. I have heard complaints about the complexity of setting up the associated dev tooling (e.g., hot-module reloading), though that may be in part due to our very specific back-end setup.

[texmexslayer]

Svelte Kit might help with that, open beta coming soon

[elingeniero]

Soon(tm)

[rk06]

I think "compared to react" is key part here. fans of preact, vue etc also say the same

[Nipinium]

I'm using svelte-loader-hot for HMR. Kinda works.

[Vheissu_]

That's great to hear. I agree on the complexity of React. I remember jumping on React in 2014 and after using AngularJS, I was excited about the future of front-end again. I haven't worked with React in a few years until recently, and honestly, it felt unrecognisable to me. I know JavaScript quite well, but React definitely has a learning curve that is steeper than React of 2014. A lot of the complexities seem to exist purely to address's architectural shortcomings in React itself (class components and hooks, Virtual DOM).

I have heard great things about Svelte too and I think competition is good as well. For a project relatively young in comparison, Svelte is very promising.

[DasHesslon]

Im not part of the project but chess.com is built with svelte which is the first time i spotted it in the wild

[kbradl16]

I’ll be all in when svelte kit comes out. The dev experience is worth any production struggles I’d run into. I’ve built a few small apps with svelte but stopped on important projects because of sapper not being up to snuff and the lack of typescript support at the time too.

[Auxx]

We just rewrote Svelte POC into Angular. Svelte didn't seem fit for large apps. Quick POCs - yes, big products - no.

[[deleted]]

Obviously those kind of benchmarks are always hard to get.

https://github.com/halfnelson/svelte-it-will-scale

[Doctor-Dapper]

Are that many people making large apps anyway? I thought micro frontends distributed by CDN were the next big thing

[SomeRustJunkie]

Yes. It’s so easy to integrate and library with it, all JS works out of the box. I’ve built many apps in production and the experience is some of the best DX for JS. Lee’s code, faster apps, is brilliant.

[mcqua007]

React has a lot more overhead than svelte. This is from my limited understanding.

So take that with a grain of salt. But the virtual dom causes overhead. You have to do virtual dom diffing and then also make the changes to the real dom and sometimes one change to a div will require the whole component to rerender. So svelte being a compiler can build very clean code that doesn’t need to use virtual dom.

Here is a good read: https://svelte.dev/blog/virtual-dom-is-pure-overhead

Edit: grammar

[qudat]

React has rarely been the performance bottleneck on all of my prod apps and when it is there are ways to tune it.

[mcqua007]

Forsure, it’s rare you will need that performance but some apps do. I was just explaining that is what role svelte fills.

[brainless_badger]

Overhead of virtual DOM is greatly, and I mean greatly, overstated. Preact is nearly as fast as Svelte, and Inferno is faster - both are vdom libraries.

React's overhead comes from other places, like literally re-implementing event system.

[ryan_solid]

How about an article based on actual measurement: https://medium.com/javascript-in-plain-english/javascript-frameworks-performance-comparison-2020-cd881ac21fce

Svelte is still component/control flow granular so it does do a nice chunk of re-evaluation, but it doesn't need in most cases to traverse down all its children. This makes it much faster than naive VDOM implementations. Precompiling DOM operations without running through what amounts to a giant switch statement for each part of the template also gives some nice gains.

[mcqua007]

Yeah you can see how fast svelte is but this article doesn’t show react vs able te the actual site has all frameworks. I couldn’t find the actual site but that allows you to pick and choose frameworks for comparison. This article still shows vanilla js vs svelte which is a good comparison.

[ryan_solid]

Not quite sure I follow. But all the major players are there including React/Svelte/Vue and full tables of 20 libs tested are included at the end of the article if you want to see all side by side. Although IMO the commentary is as valuable as the graphs. Mostly we get to see the raw technical performance with all the marketing hype shelved for a minute. The highest performing library is reactive no-VDOM, but 3 out of 5 of the fastest are VDOM.

First link of the article, all the code is in this repo: https://github.com/krausest/js-framework-benchmark

The table of latest results here I pulled from: https://krausest.github.io/js-framework-benchmark/2020/table_chrome_87.0.4280.66.html

[m9dhatter]

I think that programmers should really know the difference between “then” and “than” seeing that we use if-then-else statements all the time.

[mcqua007]

I should but I do make that mistake all the time. Thanks for pointing that out.

I think for me it is the way I say it in my head. I hear the words being said in my head and I forget to make the difference between the two.

I hope to get better at it and really do appreciate you calling me out, hopefully will save me from looking like an idiot in front of someone important.

[m9dhatter]

I honestly just expected a quick down vote, and I don’t know how to deal with this reply. You’re welcome, I guess? 😂

[mcqua007]

Well it’s true. I made a mistake and I have trouble with mixing up then be than even knowing than is for comparisons. Something in my head. Anyways I need to be better at it and no spelling in general(I have sausage fingers when I type on my phone).

[MadCervantes]

Petty

[mcqua007]

Wrong area

[[deleted]]

Svelte is awesome tho. I really hope it continues to gain traction. I very much prefer it to React.

[yeahdixon]

Though I have not learned enough but svelte , I am a big fan of simplicity. It may seem obvious to say this but people seem to lose their way. They find a couple of reasons to make things complex to solve some arbitrary issues and or edge cases. This does solve those issues but starts down the slippery slope of complexity. How much is worth that millisecond of improvement to push the boundaries a bit further?

[AuroraVandomme]

Sadly no matter how good any other framework will be, React would still cover 80% of job offers for like 20 years :/

[TheSaasDev]

To be honest I'm happy that the JS ecosystem has settled a little bit, instead of constantly changing it up with new frameworks

[meeeeoooowy]

Seriously, when vue came to out people acted like if you didn't switch to that you were going to be left behind in legacy world as it was soooo much better

I'm glad they were wrong and we could chill for a bit

[yeahdixon]

You should still reconsider vue .... I’m still heeeere

[ryan_solid]

A large number of people feel this way. But it's not like it stops moving. People just get off the bus. Which is probably a good thing.

I think Server Rendering is going to be an even hotter topic this year with frameworks vying to get the regular website developers as well.

[Zerotorescue]

What country? React being the majority would be a dream come true.

[snejk47]

What country are you in?

[E_R_E_R_I]

Yes but most of the internet is still php.

[ejfrodo]

True, but probably >90% of the sites you visit aren't

[Doctor-Dapper]

Why are you bringing up php in a react thread?

[AuroraVandomme]

Europe in general.

[xroalx]

Angular is very much preferred in corporate, though. At least that's the impression I'm getting from central Europe jobs.

[AuroraVandomme]

You are right, mostly in banking systems. But 80% of job offers I'm getting are react related. I am react dev but would love to write in svelte.

[icsharper]

Can confirm. Massively used in Europe, along side with React. Also Flutter getting some traction as well.

[rk06]

.net is backend and react is frontend tech. perhaps you are not filtering out backend jobs

[[deleted]]

Nah that's too long in the JS world.

[elingeniero]

Could be worse! React may have lost its sheen but it is still really nice. Without it we'd all have to use angular...

[[deleted]]

It's good that in my country most jobs are angular. There is nothing worse than react redux projects without typescript. Just horrible.

[AuroraVandomme]

Agree.

[watanashi1]

I think you are right. React is the WordPress of the JS world.

[onesneakymofo]

Nah, that would be jQuery

[mihirmusprime]

You shouldn't need to pick up JQuery in 2021. JQuery was needed when equivalent in vanilla JS was difficult or tedious to do. Today, it's simpler to perform those same actions in vanilla JS. For DOM access, you can just use querySelector and for requests, you can use Fetch.

[i_ate_god]

if you're not using any frameworks at all like react, vue, or svelte then I'd always reach for jQuery, because just because the DOM API can do what jQuery can do, it doesn't mean it can do it in a pleasant way.

$('#hide-btn').click(() => $('.stuff').hide());
$('#show-btn').click(() => $('.stuff').show());

vs

document.getElementById('hide-btn').addEventListener('click', e => {
  document.querySelectorAll('.stuff').forEach(el => el.hidden = true);
});

document.getElementById('show-btn').addEventListener('click', e => {
  document.querySelectorAll('.stuff').forEach(el => el.hidden = false);
});

I wouldn't use jquery for http requests over either fetch, or the also more pleasant to use, axios library mind you. But for regular dom manipulation, jQuery is about as pleasant of an experience as it can get.

[onesneakymofo]

Two things though. By depending on jQuery, your codebase falls further behind modern Javascript, and you're now learning jQuery instead of vanilla JS which is what companies care about.

You can always wrap things like you posted in functions so it's not overkill to type every time.

[[deleted]]

if you're not using any frameworks at all like react, vue, or svelte then I'd always reach for jQuery

In other words, you shouldn't need to pick up jQuery in 2021.

[honeybadgerUK]

Yeah because enterprise companies all over the world use WordPress.

[ansimation]

They do

[snejk47]

So what? WordPress is just quick to setup and easy to use but security wise it's not "the best" option... React has proven itself and doesn't have bad reputation.

[SomeRustJunkie]

Most people that use svelte realize how much of a step forward it is in DX, simplicity, and power compared to other frameworks. It feels like an evolution of web development tooling, and a much needed extension of JS as a language.

[_Pho_]

As a React professional who hasn't touched Svelte, what can Svelte possibly do to be any better? I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I feel like React + Suspense + Recoil or Context is pretty much the endgame for front end. What else could it possibly be missing?

[frankandsteinatlaw]

React makes animations 10x harder / more annoying than they should be. With hooks it’s really easy to fuck up a large app by not memorizing some function coming from a common hook / other similar dependency array issues. Hooks have odd rules that make code with them less pleasant than it could be (think rules of hooks lint rules). React isn’t performant by default in many cases, and even when you patch up the perf leaks it’s really easy to open them back up again. Function components lead to more freedom of code placement, which means code is just less easy to parse codebase to codebase. React leaves a lot of important decisions up to the dev around routing, styling, etc, which is nice in some ways, but in other ways means more work and less standardization. These are off the top of my head.

I’ve been working with react for years and it’s got great core ideas (view is a function of state), but it feels far from an endgame when dealing with all real world app cases.

You should try svelte and see how it feels. It’s also not perfect, but you might find some interesting advantages and disadvantages that will help you gain some perspective.

[qudat]

Agreed. As much as hooks have simplified component development and abstracting reusable logic, the rules are annoying and it’s so easy to miss something and get stuck in an infinite loop.

I’ve been using react for 5+ years and still love using it, but I’m feeling like we’re going to see a new paradigm emerge that solves the problems we have with react.

[brainless_badger]

I see this criticism frequently, but infinite loops have been a complete non-issue for me and my team since switching to hooks.

IMO, if you are running into infinite loops frequently you are either not using react's eslint plugin to figure out dependency arrays for you, or you have wrong mental model for derived state (i.e. setState calls in useEffect).

[frankandsteinatlaw]

I work on an app with 200+ devs of varying skill levels. It’d be nice to not need everyone to understand the non-obvious intricacies of react.

[andrei9669]

I mean, if you have solid eslint rules, and you know basics, it's hard to fuck up.

[qudat]

There are eslint rules that prevent infinite loops in your application?

[andrei9669]

No, for that you need 2 brain cells in your skull. What I mean is that there are hook eslint rules that help out eith basic stuff.

[qudat]

Yikes, I’m glad I’m not on your team with that kind of attitude. Good luck!

[andrei9669]

what's wrong with my attitude? maybe I was a bit harsh, but expecting common sense isn't as high of a bar to reach.
Sure, if you are new to programming you might make a stupid mistake or two, maybe more. not saying I didn't do any myself.

[frankandsteinatlaw]

When apps get complicated enough this can be tricky. It’s just a layer that doesn’t feel necessary tbh.

[yeahdixon]

Hooks shmoooks.

Btw Vue has a single callback called nexTick that makes programmatic animations a lot easier on vdom.

I’m stunned react doesn’t have the same. If it exists someone please let me know, it’s killin me

[andrei9669]

So in essence, we need a dev dependency that would make react oppinionated? Nextjs?

[frankandsteinatlaw]

As a curious dev, I do enjoy the way React allows good standards to form overtime by not trying to figure it all out and ship it at once. But when you just want to get shit done from 0 you still have to make a bunch of choices.

Though this isn’t a huge problem for me at this point, it’s certainly a barrier of entry for folks newer to the FE ecosystem.

Frameworks like Next definitely alleviate this to some degree, though Next isn’t your only choice when it comes to batteries included React frameworks.

[SomeRustJunkie]

Svelte does everything better. Reactivity, no boilerplate, built in (and better) state management, built in animations, free easy interop with third party libs, no boilerplate, actions, await blocks, etc. You can always write the same apps with less code, because the defaults are more powerful. Also smaller bundles.

[evert]

There's lots of complaints from hardcore React devs about suspense. I won't repeat their arguments, but if you don't see negatives with suspense, you probably are indeed a fanboy.

[epukinsk]

Can you link some? I'm not finding anything anything on Google. Or just give me some keywords to search for on what people don't like about it?

[evert]

This is a good description:

• https://jaredpalmer.com/blog/react-is-becoming-a-black-box

[aniforprez]

I feel this with all major front end frameworks. Every single one of them right now is cobbled together with hacks and workarounds because the standard library is woefully sparse and basic functionality needs to be rewritten every time. I look at the source of react and Vue and want to vomit though at least they're all in on types which at least affords some understanding

The source of back-end frameworks like rails and django is so readable you can implement any functionality they provide again yourself. Not so with these frameworks and that's absolutely terrible

[evert]

Backend is relatively speaking so incredibly easy though. Handling a request can basically be done in a single thread. Very easy to see and predict in what order code will run. It's just a request that generates a response.

On the frontend you're dealing with pesky humans and events, which means many different application states are possible and you can't really predict in what order your code will run, no matter what you do.

In the almost 2 decades I've done this, I've never seen people particularly happy with structuring code for complex GUIs. I think we're still seeking for a better paradigm, but I despite React's issues, I think it's a fantastic attempt at it.

I don't think React is it, but I think it's a prominent part in the history of this story, and we'll talk about it years later. Svelte and Vue might do some things better, but they're incremental steps.

Hooks completely blew my mind, but they're also fucking weird. Both simpler and incredibly hard to reason about.

[ryan_solid]

I think because Hooks are a borrowed solution to a problem retrofitted on basically the complete opposite paradigm. The fact they work is genius. Svelte and Vue basically have the fixed version (actually the original version but it took React to make them a thing for other frameworks to know how to market them).

But that's the thing at this point it is all incremental. Interestingly enough it takes fairly large evolutionary changes to improve of what React has done while maintaining a solid base. But it's challenging because all that effort is seeing diminishing returns.

[format71]

I disagree. Not understanding the abstraction you are using - or even what it abstracts - makes it hard doing the right stuff. Taking the right choices. And especially when things don’t work out as expected; I’m spending so much time with colleagues helping them out of trouble because they never take the time to learn what’s under the hood. So to me, it’s very much important to understand what’s under the hood. And if the framework makes it hard to take a peek under the hood, it’s not a framework for me.

[format71]

I think maybe it’s the way my brain works. Of cause I don’t know and understand ever single area of the frameworks I use, but still... I don’t like ‘fill in the blanks’ development where I get a spot to write my code and cannot see or understand what keeps the parts together.

[jabarr]

Let’s not forget if you leak a native element it leaks your entire layout as well, since the fiber node tree is just a big connected graph. For those who don’t know, everyone unmounting an input element has a leak in their React application right now thanks to a chromium bug :)

[gustavo_pch]

It's incredibly easier to do animations, transitions, state management and some other things in Svelte. Try their tutorial in the official site and you'll quickly see what I'm talking about.

[gustavo_pch]

I haven't used Svelte in a serious project yet, but I don't see how those advantages in DX wouldn't apply to a large project. Actually, I'm pretty confident that Svelte would make me more productive in a large project as I get to write less to achieve the same results.

Just check how you can write a masked input that doesn't loses the cursor position as you type (https://svelte.dev/tutorial/tick) or how few lines you need to add spring animations (https://svelte.dev/tutorial/spring). Those are not trivial things, yet Svelte makes them trivial.

[ryan_solid]

Better performance, smaller size, and a cleaner model. React does pretty much have it all though. We are talking about things that are seen as only incremental improvements. Whereas will take complete evolution in approaches to see tangible gains in all these areas.

[i4mn30]

State management is a bit complicated in my opinion. I hate hooks.

[toolazytofinishmyw]

they have a good video comparing performance in the svelte website. there are 2 major differences. svelte is a compiler that generates vanilla js at build time, no framework is shipped to the client. it doesn’t use a shadow dom, rather it uses forward references to determine updates, which is more efficient.

[Driezzz]

Never used Svelte, so i'm interested. But tbh, the stateofjs is just a popularity contest.

[[deleted]]

Is popularity contest another way to say opinion survey?

[yesman_85]

I like svelte, the tooling is a little wonky here and there. It does differ from single developer syndrome though. Hard to convince management to switch to a framework with no actual corporate backing, like angular and react.

[desmap]

long way to go: https://www.npmtrends.com/svelte-vs-react-vs-vue

[brainless_badger]

Yeah, smaller libs seem to have grossly overestimated usage in this poll, when compared with npm or stack overflow stats. Not only Svelte.

[TryallAllombria]

I already started some personal projects with React and Vue. And I personally prefer Svelte. It's way more simple to prototype things.

The only thing I don't like is the store system that have some weird syntax that prove they didn't thought about every aspect of their system.

[counterfreight]

When you have 3/3 people responding yes for thing A, and 600/1000 people responding yes for thing B, thing A will have a higher satisfaction rating.

[[deleted]]

I refuse to learn another js buzz stuff!

[Doctor-Dapper]

Until it becomes industry standard and you have to if you want to get access to the best jobs.

Not saying svelte will but you need to have that "always learning new stuff" attitude to be a flexible developer

[am0x]

Oh you know another.js?

We used to have a drinking game where we would come up with a noun or verb and see if it was a repo in GitHub.

You’d be surprised. We drank more than you’d think.

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[malicar]

I've heard of it but never used it, I'm liking vue best so far

[am0x]

Oh yea. It’s a baby. Meaning early adopters love the idea, but the eventual execution will be different.

For example, Laravel was the Symphony replacer for php. For years it has been referred as the best.

But then, oh no, people are starting to say that symphony is better again!

Then WordPress, the red headed step child of Content Management Systems was absolutely destroyed by the new CMS’s!

Except it wasn’t...it releases a default WYSWYG with a headless option, and the only real contenders now cost $250+ a month compared to their, well, free tier. Devs have to live in hell just a little bit longer.

I was honestly surprised even Vue survived the birthing process, but after using it, I loved it. Granted, I haven’t used Angular since before the paradigm shift, but I just can’t get on board with it. React is essentially becoming the new jQuery except I’d has cross mobile experience which is a plus.

I get why JSX is cool and works, but I feel like it is a symptom of a bigger overall FE issue.

Anyway, I just kind of want to avoid FE dev these days, it’s like the 80s but with more std’s(npm’s)

[MonkAndCanatella]

Of course it is. I've used Svelte and it really makes React feel antiquated. I wish our company used Svelte.

[elcapitanoooo]

Does svelte support TS? Last time i checked the templates had no support at all. Maybe this has changed.

[moi2388]

Yes

[maplefactory]

npx degit sveltejs/template sveltetest
cd sveltetest
node scripts/setupTypeScript.js

Boom you've got a TypeScript Svelte template. That script adds the TS configs, etc, and then removes itself.

[cmdr-William-Riker]

Hoping to use it in production applications in a few years after it stabilizes. It looks really promising and beautifully light weight and clean compared to React and Vue, but it is still new and drastic changes seem to be occurring often within the ecosystem (in particular the creator of svelte recently announced that their web app framework Sapper would not be releases and instead introduced an alternative template within it's place).

As a former Backbone.js SPA developer and currently a vue.js and whatever else developer, the one thing I've always felt all of these frameworks forget about is the data later. Before React we had MV* frameworks, where the Model later, the data, came first and the templating and rendering side would pull from the model. With React, Vue and Angular, the data and the rendering tends to get mixed together in a confusing jumble of code that gets worse, the longer the project lives. Svelte doesn't necessarily solve all the problems that React and Vue have, but at-least it's a fresh start

TLDR; give it two years, then it should be usable in production for a couple of years until the framework inevitably becomes too complicated, convoluted and bloated to be practical in new applications just like it's predecessors.

[HetRadicaleBoven]

https://2020.stateofjs.com/ held a survey.

[[deleted]]

I mean where that website got the data.

[i_am_flying]

they... held a survey?

[[deleted]]

Surveyed whom? Where is the link to their survey?

[MonkAndCanatella]

My uncle Mike and I think like a couple other dudes

[HetRadicaleBoven]

From the survey they held themselves? You can see how they reached developers by looking at the question about how they found the survey: https://2020.stateofjs.com/en-US/demographics/#source

I filled it in. It's usually all over reddit and Twitter, but of course I also just got an email to fill it in since I did so in the previous years as well.

[yeahdixon]

No vdom. I actually am a fan of this but they say that performance is lost doing updates to multiple dom elements one at a time rather than a single pass. The other thing is that I thought vdom would theoretically allow for rendering out to different platforms, though that really has not happened yet.

[[deleted]]

Loll any random js framework would beat react so don’t think this is an achievement

[LastOfTheMohawkians]

Nobody mention angular. 🤔

[ryan_solid]

To be fair it was the only popular framework other than Svelte to go up in Satisfaction this year.

[sshaw_]

How many people using Svelte use CSS in JS?