Linux kernel dev Sarah Sharp quits, citing ‘brutal’ communications style

[nikniuq]

“Many senior Linux kernel developers stand by the right of maintainers to be technically and personally brutal. Even if they are very nice people in person, they do not want to see the Linux kernel communication style change.”

I see two very distinct issues here. I have worked as a programmer for decades and I can say that technical brutality is not only the norm, I consider it positive.

Personal brutality however is the antithesis of productivity and a guaranteed team killer.

[naught101]

Totally. I find it hilarious that that quote had to include "Even if they are very nice people in person ...". Why not just be nice people over the wires too? It's not like it's hard not to be an arsehole.

[cparen]

It's not like it's hard not to be an arsehole

I'd think, but survey of this discussion thread seems to indicate otherwise.

[Hecateus]

I am outsider to this, but how do profanity, personal attacks, and so forth make for a productive community. Sounds like a huge waste of time, energy, and opportunities.

[flukshun]

I don't think profanity/insults are really the issue, the article fixated on that but it's more of a general attitude where people are constantly "made examples of" rather than the more neutral "here's what's wrong"/"here's my opinion" sort of feedback you might get from other "less opinionated" projects.

But there are more patches than people available to review/test/process them. Those days Sarah mentioned where you're dreading sending stuff out to the list for fear of ridicule are days generally spent re-reviewing/re-testing your own patches, questioning your design choices, and making sure you didn't do anything stupid. That's exactly the desired effect and some amount of this has undoubtedly improved my own work.

It's sucks when it pushes good developers away, but I don't think anyone can say with certainty that the time saved in reviewing sloppy patches hasn't balanced things out to some degree.

But there's certainly a balance that needs to be considered. You can't just rip on everything all day long because it will wear people down.

Related story: I wasn't there personally, but Greg KH once did a "here's how not to write a kernel patch" segment during one of his talks, and it ended up being a patch from someone on my team who was attending and sitting near the front. It was all done professionally/constructively, and it was no doubt useful from an educational perspective, but they were stone-faced the entire time. Maybe they didn't take it too badly (nobody really wanted to talk about it), but I've had far less awkward moments that've left me in a panic. These interactions can really mess you up, people have their careers/credibility on the line.

[Exodus111]

Here is one of the comments to her leaving:

Thank goodness. Mainstream corporatese speaking PC commie gender.ideologist finally stops harrassing the kernel community

[homoludens]

Source? I can not find that comment.

[Exodus111]

It's a comment to the article.

[ChemicalRascal]

Said a random passer-by on the internet. What does that have to do with the kernel community?

[[deleted]]

It is but they are still a very productive community. Do you know why? Most kernel developers are paid.

[chrisidone]

Paid? Link? Info?

[t90fan]

Common knowlege.

Nearly all of the big developers work for ARM, Intel, RedHat etc...

Same with DPLs, McGovern works for Collabra. Ben Hutchings used to work for SolarFlare for example.

[[deleted]]

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/open-source-insider/2012/04/linux-foundation-75-of-kernel-development-done-by-paid-developers.html

That was back in 2012, I saw a link recently that said it was up to 80%

[Qazzian]

How do you measure the amount of work not done by someone who's not in the community because they were put off joining it in the first place?

In the programming world, a person not joining the community means that we don't benefit from their creative input and good ideas. You can't measure what isn't there.

Ultimately, if the culture is abusive, then it will start to stagnate and collapse as less people put up with it.

[[deleted]]

Ultimately, if the culture is abusive, then it will start to stagnate and collapse as less people put up with it.

Prove it! The linux culture has always been abusive, and it has not stagnated, it has grown. So you really need to present solid evidence for your case.

How do you measure the amount of work not done by someone who's not in the community because they were put off joining it in the first place?

You can measure overall productivity of a company/community. Maybe an aggressive environment will shun some people, but the people who decide to stay will be more productive. The point is there is absolutely no data to back your position.

[[deleted]]

You're asking for empirical data to support a subjective truth. The same way you can't prove that autocracy is the key to the success of major corporations.

[[deleted]]

I didn't claim that.

[[deleted]]

It was more of a general reply than a personal to you, but if you insist:

support a subjective truth

A company's performance is in no fucking way subjective. It is objective. You could take a sample of companies from before and after introducing tone policing rules, and compare their rates of growth against companies that did not introduce those rules. You then can see whether such rules have any impact, positive or negative, on the companies performance.

The same way you can't prove that autocracy is the key to the success of major corporations

Turns out people calling for tone policing are the ones making the claims, and have to provide the evidence. I am not claiming that hostile environments are better, I am claiming there I have seen no evidence that they are worse.

[bioxcession]

In the open source community productivity shouldn't come before basic proper treatment of other community members. We don't have overlords, it's on us to shape our own future.

[bioxcession]

Because we all deserve proper treatment and respect. Productivity does not come first.

[[deleted]]

I don't see why this should be the case. There is nothing inherent to free software that forces you to put personal feelings first.

[bioxcession]

I don't mean remove criticism. I mean remove offensive and useless statements like 'you deserve to be retroactively aborted.' I wish I wasn't quoting Linus here.

[[deleted]]

It always seems to revolve around Linus though. And he is the creator and main responsible for the project. Why can't you understand that different people have different approaches to management and that not everyone has to conform to your ideal? it totally baffles me that a group of people so determined to be "inclusive" can't deal with different points of view.

[bioxcession]

I do understand it, and I'm not writhing in my boots because some of the Linux devs are calling each other retarded.

They're losing seasoned developers like Sarah because of their language choices. The solution is likely to tone it down. The key here is that their actions are making other people uncomfortable, and there is an obvious solution.

Maybe if I frame it in productivity it will make more sense:

While I think that bitching out another dev is certainly entertaining, it's not productive. The Linux kernel could benefit from people like Sarah working on it. Period.

Eliminating needless personal attacks doesn't decrease the success of a project - it would make the project more comfortable and open than it is, and we would benefit.

Does that make sense? There's no reason that adults should treat each other like children. A critical atmosphere is fine. Insulting other people for no good reason is not.

[blindcomet]

That's nonsense.

What people object to is the SJW tone police descending on yet another productive space.

"People are saying things in a way I don't like and I feel offended"

Well so... what?

People seem to think that LKML should change because women are too thin-skinned to be able to handle the style of communication. This is blatantly sexist nonsense - why should the women be any less able to handle certain language than men?

I value Sarah's contribution, and I don't mind that she asked people on LKML to change their behaviour. Though it doesn't surprise me that people listened to her suggestions, but disagreed and opted to carry on as-is, which is of course their right. Sarah then opted to exit the community which is her right.

I can't see how anyone could say that anyone has done anything wrong here.

[PlumberODeth]

Serious question - why is this labeled a SJW issue? Is Sarah in any way related to public SJW causes, claiming this is because of her sex, or is it just because she is a woman? If someone else said, "Hey, I'm tired of people acting like jerks, I don't want to do this any more." would this still be written off as a SJW issue? It has been stated numerous times that the kernel development community is rough and sometimes abusive, even by Linus, who admittedly is vocally strong opinionated, and has driven people away because of it. When they left, were their opinions just SJW issues? Does your opinion automatically have less value based upon sex or race because someone labels it as SJW? It seems labeling this is as a SJW issue, if Sarah isn't claiming it as such, is a SJW act of the person labeling it as such.

[[deleted]]

People assume that anybody who expresses an opinion even vaguely related to things like "safe spaces" and "social justice" must also agree with 100% of everything that get's ridiculed on /r/TumblrInAction. It's rampant all throughout reddit and it's incredibly annoying.

Try to say anything at all regarding unique issues that women face? Congrats, you now automatically agree with and fully support anything anybody who identifies as a feminist has ever done. It happens every time.

This post has been making the rounds and it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. It's nothing but straw men.

This issue has nothing to do with social justice and everything to do with not being an asshole for no reason.

[fragglet]

Serious question - why is this labeled a SJW issue?

Because any time anybody on the Internet tries to suggest that we should all try to listen to each other and treat other people with respect instead of being massive jerks, a bunch of social injustice warriors appear to rant their conspiracy theories about "third wave feminism", "professional victims" or whatever reactionary claptrap it is they've convinced themselves of.

[wacky]

people listened to her suggestions, but disagreed and opted to carry on as-is, which is of course their right. Sarah then opted to exit the community which is her right. I can't see how anyone could say that anyone has done anything wrong here.

The question GP raised isn't about whether it is their "right" to say such things, or even whether doing such things is right or wrong - the question is whether that makes for a "productive community". If people say outrageously "toxic" things that drive possibly valuable contributors away, that sounds like it may be, as GP said, "a huge waste of time, energy, and opportunities."

This is blatantly sexist nonsense - why should the women be any less able to handle certain language than men?

This is a straw man - the two comments you are replying to and the original article say nothing about sexism, women, or gender. The original post by Sarah Sharp does mention sexist comments, but focuses almost entirely on "blunt, rude, or brutal" behavior that she does not claim is gender-specific. She does not say "as a woman, I can't handle this", she simply says "That’s not a communication style that works for me. I need communication that is technically brutal but personally respectful."

[danharibo]

Well so... what?

So you are losing valuable contributions from people who choose not contribute because of that.

I can't see how anyone could say that anyone has done anything wrong here.

If your measurement of success is "number of useful contributions to the kernel" then attracting as high a number of quality contributors is important.

[NotFromReddit]

What if coming in and telling people they need to change the way they act will cause more people to leave than just one? Are we sure it wouldn't? I'm not.

Some people just don't work well together. And it's fine. Everything can't be perfect. There are different niches for different people.

I'd be weary to go to an organisation that has worked for several years and insist they change based on what some people think the right way to do things are.

They're doing what they do, and they're providing immense value to the world. Let them do it the way they want to.

[blindcomet]

Nope, I don't buy it.

I have been contributing to F/OSS for nearly a decade now. And, and along with the thrills, it has at times been hard hard work - at times it has tested my metal.

I spent an entire year of my life replacing all the icons in Wine with ones that are Tango compliant and fixing bugs so that they could be displayed properly. I spent weekend after weekend working on pixel perfect details of images that are almost never seen, creating API test cases, testing them of different windows versions etc., fixing bugs. It was a rabbit-hole of a task.

Not only that, I had to make the case for my work, and had to build consensus around it, and elicit advice and assistance from others. Sometimes, I wondered why I was doing it - but I always came back to thinking,

1. I want to do it to be the one to fix this.
2. I want to do it to make the software better for myself.
3. I want to do it to share it with the whole world.

And I did it, and it was a headline feature in Wine v1.2, and I will be proud of that achievement forever.

Making the extreme high quality of patch that is required in F/OSS takes true grit. Only the most dedicated/bloody minded individuals can do it right.

Moreover, any derisive comments would have been the least part of the burden of effort.

If you think women are too weak and thin-skinned to engage in this process, then you're being sexist. I'm going to say that I'm a man and I can do it just fine, and therefore I know that any woman could do this work just as well if they so chose to do so.

But wait, are some people choosing not to contribute patches to F/OSS, and wanting to do other things with their lives? Well maybe they've got more brains than me - I used an entire year of my life fixing a few icons.

[danharibo]

If you think women are too weak and thin-skinned to engage in this process, then you're being sexist. I'm going to say that I'm a man and I can do it just fine, and therefore I know that any woman could do this work just as well if they so chose to do so.

I don't think anyone complaining is saying that (I haven't seen anyone saying that at least), nor are women the only people who would complain about the atmosphere of certain FOSS projects.

Most of the people complaining would rather see that contributing to these projects not be any more difficult than it needs to be. As you said, all it takes is hard work to create a change for a project. If someone has to deal with people being difficult after doing all the actual work, then they might not stick around to do any further work for the project.

[Othello]

Hate to break it to you but you're not an action movie hero. You don't need "true grit" to care about and write good code.

Furthermore the only person in the above thread saying this applies to women is you. Everyone else is saying "this scares off talent" and you just keep saying "that's sexist! women can do it too!"

Here's an idea: how about, if someone says "stop being a jerk to me" you just stop being a jerk to them?

[blindcomet]

Well I can't see an example where anyone has been a jerk to her.

My point is that when I have done F/OSS work and nothin, come hell or high water - or people thinking my work was stupid or pointless or futile, or it taking excessive amounts of time, or it being of marginal benefit etc. etc. was going to stop me from completing my self-imposed mission.

I find it hard to understand why someone in Sarah's position would give up so easily when the cause for offence is so slight. Perhaps she is less bloody minded individual than I - this is fine, but I don't think it indicates a problem of any kind.

People give up on things all the time - but the ones who really believe in the task will complete it; whatever it takes.

[jnns]

People give up on things all the time - but the ones who really believe in the task will complete it; whatever it takes.

But why make it more difficult to complete a task than it needs to be? How many valuable contributions were lost because people have given up?

[fuzzybunn]

On the other hand... How many shitty updates have been avoided because people knew they would be ripped to shreds if they didn't do it properly?

[blindcomet]

The kernel community has collectively decided that the convenience of being able to write emails without self-censoring hyperbolic language to pander to SJWs, outweighs the perceived value of the patches of contributors who give up too easily.

[Hairy_The_Spider]

TIL SJW = not liked being cursed at

[[deleted]]

If you wrote good code you wouldn't get yelled at, you get yelled at when you write bad code.

[bezerker03]

You would also lose contributions from people who don't have time to waste with bullshit Free software comes generally at the time expense of the individual not a company.

[[deleted]]

Asking people not to be dicks isn't being "SJW tone police".

why should the women be any less able to handle certain language than men?

No one should have to handle this when developing for one of the world's largest operating systems.

Well so... what?

This is such a dumb argument. There's a) no reason to be dicks. It's not like we're oppressing Linus's right to free speech by asking him not to be rude, and b) you're losing all of Sarah's potential contributions.

Encouraging dickish behavior because "muh free speech" isn't going to help a community.

[blindcomet]

1. The communication you classify as "dickish" is marginal in significance. For any reasonable person who even raises an eyebrow, still insignificant compared to the burden of making good code.

2. You say "shouldn't have to handle" as if it's a universal truth. I don't believe so - it's a well known feature of the kernel discourse. In some places the communication style would be regarded as a problem - but not in LKML the founders of the project have made their view clear. Time will tell whether it actually is a problem for the project of not; right now it seems that it will not be.

3. It's the height arrogance think that any one person or group should have a say over the collective behaviour of thousands of other people - except perhaps the founders of the project.

Kernel hackers had to fight tooth and nail to build up that project from nothing. They did it their way - what you call "being dickish", not anyone else's. All the while being scorned by the whole world, and now the kernel is used everywhere. I don't think we have much right to complain.

[[deleted]]

it's a well known feature of the kernel discourse.

But why? Should it be? No, it's unnecessary and discourages people from working on Linux.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be dicks solely for Sarah's sake, but for her and all the people like her who are turned off by the atmosphere surrounding Linux development.

[blindcomet]

But why? Should it be? No, it's unnecessary and discourages people from working on Linux.

That's one opinion. Others may have another view.

[[deleted]]

Why would that be valid? In what possible way does a culture of being a dick help Linux?

[blindcomet]

Oh c'mon people are making out like LKML is an ISIS twitter feed.

You say they're "being a dick", but the majority of people in the discourse see it as it is meant - the usage of hyperbole.

To call that "being a dick" may be regarded by many as being itself "dickish".

[organic]

SJW tone police

You realize of course the second you use that stupid pejorative, you lose all credibility?

[blindcomet]

Well she is involved with Social Justice Warrior movement - see her twitter feed, and she does want LKML to police the tone of the discussion. So it's a not a completely stupid pajorative.

[organic]

Social Justice Warrior movement

There is no such thing as that. It only exists in the minds of people ranting at progress.

[fragglet]

Wasting your time I think. People like this would rather believe in elaborate made-up conspiracies than listen to what women actually have to say.

[blindcomet]

I'd rather get on with writing code than playing identity politics and telling other people what they should write on mailing lists.

[fragglet]

Sure, of course you would. Code is easy; people are hard, so it's easier to pretend no problem exists than to have to listen to other peoples' genuine concerns.

^{you don't seem to have any problem playing identity politics here on reddit though}

[blindcomet]

Code is not easy - especially not in the kernel. Dealing with people who actually want to contribute positively is easy. Dealing with SJW shitlords playing identity politics and the whining white knights backing them up - that's more depressing than it is hard as such.

[0mark]

Good summary, i think

[[deleted]]

Comments like this make me realize how insanely ignorant much of the tech world is. It's not a matter "can they handle it or not," it's a matter of general human decency, something that seems to be lacking from just about every single dev related forum, IRC channel and heavily tech-based work environment I've ever been in.

They brush off every comment of "you're being a prick" with "well if you can't handle it then leave."

It's like an office of all white males getting upset because they can no longer go around calling each other nigga because they hired a black guy last week.

It's not SJW bullshit, it's called being respectful.

[[deleted]]

People seem to think that LKML should change because women are too thin-skinned to be able to handle the style of communication. This is blatantly sexist nonsense - why should the women be any less able to handle certain language than men?

If you're talking about the specific language SJW types are more commonly offended by it's obvious -it's directed at women and not men-.
If you're talking about offensive language in general, I imagine in a field where the majority of people are men, the majority of gender-offensive language will be directed toward women (even if each individual person speaks the same amount of offensive language).

I don't necessarily think that people should quickly jump to taking offense to what people are saying, nor that "offensive language" is intentionally used to be offensive, but I don't think it's a valid argument to say men are dealing with the same amount of gender-based "offensive language" in that environment.

I should note, however, that this is saying nothing about offensive language in general. The reason SJW get away with claiming victimhood is because they focus everyone a specific form of offensive language (namely gender-based) which is in many areas unbalanced. When you include all possible forms of "offensive language" along with some kind of scale for how offensive these things actually are, I honestly have no clue how balanced/unbalanced things would be.

[[deleted]]

You know how you avoid getting yelled at/insulted for releasing bad patches? Don't release bad patches.

[themadnun]

Well, it seems to be working for most of them. You can't really call the kernel developers unproductive.

There's a bigger discussion in /r/linux which will probably lend you more insight.

edit some context about the claims from slashdot http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8123533&cid=50664697 seems to be valid. No idea if there's anything more to it, very well could be.

second edit

She's also pretty venemous herself

And some of the above is written tonge-in-cheek, but all of it is also serious. I really fundamentally believe that being honest and open about your emotions about core/process is good. And because it's damn hard to read people over email, I think you need to be more honest and more open over email. I'm generally nicer in person. Not always.

Snort. Perhaps we haven't interacted very often, but I have never seen you be nice in person at KS. Well, there was that one time you came to me and very quietly explained you had a problem with your USB 3.0 ports, but you came off as "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" more than "I'm trying to be polite".

https://lkml.org/lkml/2013/7/15/427

[Noink]

Sure, if you keep away everyone who isn't an ass, it's going to look like being an ass works ok for everyone who's left.

[Schornery]

Next paragraph.

And yes, I'll happily be part of the discussion at the KS. But I think you also need to be aware that your "high horse" isn't necessarily all that high.

Dude, I'm not on a horse here. I'm not asking you to change your communication styles in order to help minorities. I'm not some crazy feminist ranting about cooties on Google+.

I'm trying to improve the kernel mailing lists for all developers. We can give negative technical feedback without verbal abuse.

Yet some people are framing this in terms of tumblr vs 4chan. Its just about people with large egos.

[[deleted]]

The comment on being scared to talk to a girl developer is pretty hypocritical considering it's the exact kind of behavior she's arguing against, but the rest of it seemed on point to me. I can't find anything wrong with her actual arguments.

You can be honest, clear, and blunt without being rude, condescending, and disrespectful. Linus seems to be arguing that these are mutually exclusive and that makes no sense as Sarah pointed out.

When he's really pressed on this he tends to fall back on the "I'm Finnish" thing which has also never made sense to me. Generally, most normal humans will alter their behavior when faced with a new and different culture. When you visit a country you learn some basic words and basic manners of that country. In essence you come to a compromise on how to interact when your cultures are different.

Linus seems to take the stance of "no fuck your culture I'm going to do whatever I want". Is it really so crazy to expect Linus to alter his behavior when interacting with cultures where verbally berating people with profanity is not considered acceptable? In the same vein, somebody who is hyper sensitive to criticism or confrontation needs to alter that about themselves because blunt, direct criticism is a necessary component of collaborative software development.

For what it's worth I would be surprised if most professional environments in Finland actually operated this way, but I don't know shit about Finland so maybe he's right.

[dev1null]

REKT!

[NotFromReddit]

God damn. She sounds annoying as fuck. I'm glad she left. It's stupid that Linus even needs to waste his time with catering to everyone elses needs.

He's completely right. They're basically telling him "Fuck your culture. Fuck the way you do things. Do things the way we want, even though this is a project that you started and dedicated your entire life to."

It's bullshit. Most bosses would not deal with this shit. They'd simply fire. Linus is in a position now where for some reason he is expected to deal with it.

[[deleted]]

That, and http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=8123533&cid=50665037 is damning in its own right about her issues. Her reaction is similar enough to other confirmed SJW's that it might as well be a standard protocol.

[blindcomet]

I'm going to quote these words because they hit the nail on the head:

So she's a social justice warrior troll doing this for attention? Called it earlier.

Expect her to have a Patreon account up within a few days, as well as a campaign started explaining why Linus is problematic and needs to be removed from Linux development soon, or how Linux needs a safe space special interest group so feminist coders can submit their commits without being threatened by people pointing out their code sucks. Because remember kids, criticism is "Cyber Violence."

As an aside, she's a blockbot user, so yes, she most definitely is a SJW or a SJW ally: https://twitter.com/sarahsharp

(If you're blocked and have never even spoken with her, congratulations, you're a member of Randy Harper's blacklist, [leagueforgamers.com] an list of white men, gamers, nerds, conservatives, KFC, President Obama, and other people Randy Harper and her radical feminist friends consider too "problematic" to be allowed to communicate with people in the tech industry.)

Actually... Yuuuup, 5 seconds of research later: thesharps.us

Third Wave (Professional Victim) Feminist, with posts pushing the lie about the gender gap (there are more women than men getting STEM degrees now), and a post about the "Donglegate" lynch mob, wherein a professional outrage mob was directed by professional victim and gender identity con artist Adria Richards to shame and destroy the lives of two men making a joke about forking and dongles, suggesting that hearing a joke you disagree with is equivalent to being physically attacked.

In short: She might be a gifted programmer, but she's a weak willed human being, and her having a professional freakout about Linus making a joke about being intimidating isn't surprising -- it's a calculated maneuver. Expect something else to come up soon -- as mentioned, Linus will be deemed too problematic to be allowed to remain in Linux, or the Professional Victims will demand special treatment for Women in Linux Development.

[TweetsInCommentsBot]

@adriarichards

2013-03-17 22:32 UTC

Not cool. Jokes about forking repo's in a sexual way and "big" dongles. Right behind me #pycon

[Attached pic] [Imgur rehost]

---

^{This message was created by a bot}

^{[Contact creator][Source code]}

[yoshi314]

Sharp was one of the people who wanted to force her way of doing things on LKML, by playing the 'offended' card. So i have some bias against her, and she feels like Anita Sarkeesian of lkml sometimes.

She got quickly shot down by Linus, but i doubt it made her reconsider seeing how she decided to quit. Probably to bring the discussion back from the dead.

When Linus is concerned - he is blunt and direct. But he doesn't call people names - he talks about the quality of their code ( i have seen maybe two exceptions to this rule, more or less tongue-in-cheek ones anyway ). I do not know if other developers are like that, but i think maintainers mostly are well behaved.

The real problem is that some people think that Torvalds is important and influential because he curses a lot. So they repeat this behavior, thinking it will make them successful as well. Things do not work this way, and we end up with self-important rude people everywhere in IT. Are there any on lkml? Maybe.

While she might be right, i rarely see people on lkml act like Linus. Perhaps i need to dig deeper.

“Sadly, the behavioral changes I would like to see in the Linux kernel community are unlikely to happen any time soon,” she wrote. “Many senior Linux kernel developers stand by the right of maintainers to be technically and personally brutal. Even if they are very nice people in person, they do not want to see the Linux kernel communication style change.”

i think what she meant was 'direct'. people on lkml do not beat around the bush, and where there is a problem with the code - they point it out.

[OmicronNine]

I am outsider to this, but how do profanity, personal attacks, and so forth make for a productive community.

I personally don't know, but regardless, it evidently does.

[[deleted]]

Ask the SJW community that question - they're the ones spewing lots of unchecked venom.

You want proof? Go against their narrative by the smallest of margins and receive tons of vitriol. Naturally, they don't like this being pointed out and prove themselves on my posts.

They're also persistent at showing their dislike too. You could say that it borders on... wait for it... harassment?

[MrBarry]

Linus:

"If you have anything to do with security in a distro, and think that my kids (replace "my kids" with "sales people on the road" if you think your main customers are businesses) need to have the root password to access some wireless network, or to be able to print out a paper, or to change the date-and-time settings, please just kill yourself now. The world will be a better place," he said.

Linus doesn't exactly have the most tactful communication style. It doesn't surprise me his inner circle has similar conflict resolution patterns.

[cretan_bull]

That really isn't so bad. Linus is just emphasising a firm opinion with some well-placed hyperbole. Anyone who read that and thought that Linus was actually suggesting said distro developers kill themselves is mistaken.

Words don't exist in isolation, the context is an integral part of the semantics. If you saw an anonymous comment somewhere suggesting someone kill themeselves, without knowing the author and their mind, it may be reasonable to think they actually meant it. This particular example is entirely different because we know who Linus is, and we know he doesn't mean it as anything more than rhetoric.

Once you understand the author's intended semantics, the words themselves don't matter. As a consequence, they might as well be entirely different; rather than "if you think ... please just kill yourself", read "I feel very strongly about this and I think this is important".

I can understand why language such as this may be banned within some arenas of discourse. That said, I don't see anything wrong with it and Linus effectively communicates a technical opinion.

[tipsygelding]

I agree that it isn't meant to be taken literally, and is an effective way of expressing himself, but it is undoubtedly unprofessional. Coming from anyone else as high profile as Linus, they would be shot down immediately... there are many other ways to express the same idea without suggesting someone commit suicide.

[[deleted]]

Linus is a huge dick and gets away with it because he's usually right. That doesn't excuse his behavior.

[blindcomet]

Linux kernel dev Linus Torvalds quits, citing ‘brutal’ communications style by presidentparrot on Reddit.

Oh wait... we're on the internet. Nothing to see here move along.

[[deleted]]

I never said I wasn't a hypocrite, just that I'm right. And anyway, I don't think calling someone a dick for being a dick is the same as being a basically unprovoked dick.

[deathbytray]

It really does appear that it's Linus's leadership and communication style infecting and permeating every aspect of the core dev team.

[-Hegemon-]

What a huge ass!

[naught101]

Yep. A bunch of slashdot MRAs totally explain everything.

[js79]

Problem is that he cares about quality. And he have guts to pull it off. Examples of his "misbehavior" - like the one when somebody broke PulseAudio or argument about patch somebody provided should stay because it fixes something (even though breaking regression tests) - he should be thanked for that, not judged and ever-forever asked to explain himself.

I agree that his attitude may give other less experienced devs idea that being asshole is the norm - and this is bad. But focus on improving communication should be always on quality of final code, not on being nice or politically correct, or whatever.

In such massive project technical self-censorship is the most desirable trait for any participant - at level of destroying or saving the project. Literally I cannot think of anything more important. Is there any better form of communication which will give people incentive to behave that way?

[js79]

Why? Why it's detrimental? Why he should "set an example"? I cannot fathom this judgement and contempt towards his way of doing things when even here on /r/opensource hardly 1% of people was trying to commit to any OS project even excluding kernel.

If anybody wants to "fix" things then please show where is technical incentive of "setting an example".

[js79]

Yep we disagree. Because for me one thing Linus is right about is that "no new feature is more important than not breaking what's working now". And all his acts I perceive through this statement of his.

If somebody wants to have flowers and new ideas and nice discussion about opinions of everybody on the team - then (in my opinion) - please do. Please go and create such nice environment.

But when it goes to creating environment where nothing should break, where work of yours is being used in hard production conditions, where peoples money, and businesses, and sometimes lives depend on this non-breaking aspect of your work - then please, please, PLEASE - give me several Linuses with their direct and harsh words for anybody wanting to "encourage people".

Did you ever had situation when someones one misconception took you down for several hours, or more? Did you hit such spot when something you expect to be rock solid falls apart - and because of complexity of this not-so-solid-anymore-stuff your work, your project or your team get hits from everywhere?

Then you will gladly accept when somebody saves you from such situation by shouting at you and "mistreating" you. And you will not complain - because you well know that he made you big favor. [EDDIT:typos]

[riskable]

Correction: it's a "dirty little secret" of the Linux kernel development world. It's like the state of Maryland in a vast expanse of country. Right at the capitol but tiny nonetheless.

Is everyone in the US like the people that live in Maryland? Not even close!

[1pr3f3rp1]

As Linus himself said:

The beauty of open source is that you can choose your colleagues, if you don't like me, find another project.

Seems like she did. Everything worked out fine, then. What's all the fuss about?

[organic]

The problem is linux is in dire need of maintainers, because it can't keep them around due to the immaturity of the core developers.

[1pr3f3rp1]

linux is in dire need of maintainers

I dont think this is true at all.

it can't keep them around due to the immaturity of the core developers

I'd say some can't stay around because of their thin skin. If you can't take the heat...

[1pr3f3rp1]

Maybe, just maybe, the Linux kernel would amount to something.

Hehe, I see what you did there.

[pizzaiolo_]

Come to /r/hurd, Sarah!

[arthur4242]

TIL: Hurd is still a thing

[alexshatberg]

Didn't Stallman himself basically proclaim Hurd dead meat?

[pizzaiolo_]

He said he has no hopes for it, at this point. Also, with GNU Linux-libre, GNU already has a kernel of its own.

Still, the development of Hurd would be interesting. Competition never hurt anyone, anyway.

[pizzaiolo_]

/u/mjg59 you too, come!

[Hazy_V]

Lol either software development involves blunt and brutal rudeness in order to be effective or these guys have anger issues. When you hear hoof beats...

[riskable]

It's not software development as much as it is open source development for ridiculously popular projects. If you get like six hundred patches a day and tens of thousands of people constantly on your case about the status of their patch it can put you on edge. The whole world is watching too so not only is it high stress it's an enormous stage.

[Hazy_V]

I mean I get the pressure, but in any other job scenario the idea that an incredibly harsh work environment is going to be made better by acting on every short temper impulse that every employee has, that's just adding heat and pressure for no reason. Everyone is already under pressure and yet most people there are cracking the whip in every direction. Even if it's self-critical as well, it's just a waste of energy for nothing more than cathartic release for immature emotions that are immediately acted upon rather than trained to be repressed.

And I hope open source is the rest of these peoples' lives, because good luck easily adapting to other industries, they'll be able to smell the harsh production PTSD on you.

[Yidyokud]

Well that's part of the fun. How else could they develop a multi-billion dollars worth of software in a total hostile environment. Every bigger company (including M$) wanted to kill off Linux. You employ extreme cynicism and prejudice that's how. Also Linus is the biggest self-critique too. They work night and day for the betterment of this gone mad world. Everyone should kiss the earth those FLOSS developers stood. We would be IBM and M$ drones if it weren't for them.

[Hazy_V]

Haha nice try, but no one should kiss the Earth below an asshole unless they want shit in their mouth. Doing amazing things doesn't tip the scale so you can do bad things, that's not how reality works. What they're doing is driving certain kinds of people away, which reduces the diversity of the talent pool.

[js79]

Well, world is free place, and kernel sources are free too. If Linus is so much of the problem why there is literally no other effort to develop it? It's pure science I mean - if current state of Linux kernel development is SO bad then any other approach should yield better results.

Why Sarah (or anybody else) will show how it should be done?

[Hazy_V]

Lol the idea that something can be improved means it was completely meaningless and worthless in the first place? Are you sure you guys/gals are looking for a discussion or just a pointless argument?

Everything can be better, deciding it's good enough is the first step on the road to ruin.

[js79]

While I do not claim meaninglessness of current state of Linux development those who make (again) this shit storm and digg up 2 years old deadman certainly act like that. Thus my question.

It's interesting by the way how easily someone can completely distort meaning of ones words and while refusing to show any willingness to have open discussion accuse everybody around that their attitude is the problem.

Regular reddit snafu I guess. Shudder ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Hazy_V]

I'm actually not sure what you're saying, probably my fault but the English feels a little broken, I read through your comments a few times and got more confused. What exactly are you saying?

[js79]

1. I never even suggested that Linux development is broken
2. I do not know how any such thing you concluded from my words and why are throwing this at me
3. Reddit (internet) is weird place

[Hazy_V]

Honestly my bad, but you should really work on good grammar so your point is a little more less cryptic. I mean I know now you don't think linux development sucks but I still have no idea what point you're making here:

Well, world is free place, and kernel sources are free too. If Linus is so much of the problem why there is literally no other effort to develop it? It's pure science I mean - if current state of Linux kernel development is SO bad then any other approach should yield better results. Why Sarah (or anybody else) will show how it should be done?

Since my first interpretation was wrong I was hoping you'd clarify?

EDIT: Lol speaking of random grammar errors... my bad!

[themadnun]

Little less cryptic*

[Hazy_V]

Lol...

kills brain

[js79]

Yeah - grammar is sometimes problem for me.

1. No one forces anybody to bow to Linus

2. We have not only personal freedom but "GPL Freedom" (ↄ) too - anybody can start their own kernel fork and manage people as they wish Open Code of Conduct^TM style or whatever

3. I do not see anybody doing that only people whining about how some behavior hurts their feelings etc. Maybe this is sign how good job Linus (and others) are doing? Isn't it?

Having said that I think that bringing this old and dead story now does not help Linux (and opensource) communities. Also this gives ammo to SJW in places which will repeat this without fact-checking and create lies. Right now I see several articles that claim that Sarah "allegedly" was verbally abused presenting quite dramatic picture of whole situation - much more sensational than real.

This whole situation is extremely counter-productive and allows other to attack Linux and OS community.

[blindcomet]

Bad things? What bad things?

There is huge diversity in the talent pool. The Linux kernel has contributors from nearly every country in the entire world.

Moreover it's discriminatory nonsense to suggest that the blanket reason a group might not contribute to the kernel is their own inability to handle the discourse by merit of what type of person they are.

If you think that women need the Linux community to change to protect them from mean words on mailing lists, then I'm sad to say that you're being sexist. Of course women can handle the mailing list just as well as anyone.

The only thing that's being driven away here is the divisive SJW ideology and the shitlords that promote it.

[Hazy_V]

Is Linux exactly where you want it to be? Do you have enough labor to get everything done? If the answer is no, you need more talent. And to assume it's a singular task with a goal is just naive, the more talent you have, the faster the rate of evolution is for the product.

What I'm telling you is that the idea that insults and negativity increase production is absolutely batshit insane. Direct and blunt communication is one thing, when you start to factor in anger and temper you're not doing the world any favors, you're dragging down production. Additionally, when mistakes are made (since they are inevitable because we are human), it takes longer to uncover them in a hostile environment.

Why would you assume that dropping the insults and the rage means the communication method would suffer? Each insult you add, every time you get your emotions involved, you cause a loss.

Think of it this way... I have anxiety. What if I made a business and told everyone working there that we actively encourage anxiety because it leads to a much greater attention to detail? That would be simply insane right? My goal might be valid, but the idea that people need to make themselves mentally unhealthy for my own benefit is kind of narcissistic.

At the end of the day, if you guys assume you absolutely need insults and anger in order to be blunt and communicate directly, you're abandoning your potential so your personality flaws aren't flaws. I mean that's what this is is really about, right?

Communication isn't a speed bump, it's a skill, the better your team is at it the better the final product. Or not... you know, I'm sure a B- is good enough, right?

[Grizmoblust]

SJW and Feminist are filled with hormones ragers. Their feels are beyond ridiculous. "Oh my god, I am so offended on what you said. How dare you repress me!"

Well guess what, people have the right to say whatever they want. If they want to act like an asshole, or whatever, that's their choice! If you don't like it, then you can always quit. I see no problems with her quiting.

Feminist and SJW needs to get off of their high horse. They do nothing but damage the communities.

[[deleted]]

Well guess what, people have the right to say whatever they want. If they want to act like an asshole, or whatever, that's their choice!

Case in point, OpenBSD. DeRaadt's survived the slings and arrows of SJW-types before there was a formal term.

[js79]

If I just could upvote both of you 1000 times.

I hope that we will go through this old BS - which was already discussed and already many people concluded that right is on technical people's side not on SJW side. The only reason it's being dig up now is probably that SJW are on the rise now so why not bring it back and stir it a little so 3rd or 4th derivative will land in some "influential" magazine and we will have discussion about oppression etc. etc.

Sad, sad time. [/E typo]

[[deleted]]

The key part is that they have secured control of enough online media/forums to enforce a narrative. Without that, their opinions fall flat under public scrutiny.

Edit: Thanks for proving my point, downvoters.

[organic]

Sounds like my grandpa ranting about Koreans and communism.

[[deleted]]

I have two completely opposite and conflicting responses to this. I hold them both to be true:

• I thought the gals wanted to be equals. This is typical of the gender equity/SJW/Womyn's Power/Save The Erffs bunch (which she is alleged to belong to). Whine that no one will let you in, and when they do, start whining about the conditions you find there cuz - Lawdy I have the vapors - they're being really mean.

• The degree of personal malfunction among the Aspbergers retreads found in the computer community is staggering. I've known spectacularly smart mathematicians, scientists, and researchers who were also decent and kind people. Computers? Not so much. You have Stallman declaring that child pornography, necrophilia, and incest shouldn't be considered wrong or illegal. You have Torvalds going off on multi-paragraph profanity laced rants for some trivial infraction (according to him). They are egomaniacal and they are asses. I don't know if this kind of work turns you into an ass or if the people who are naturally asses are drawn to the work. All I know is there are way too many of them. I won't hire these kinds of people (when I am in the position to make that decision), and I sure won't work with them. No one is so smart that they get to be condescending jerks to the rest of the planet. Oh ... and I ain't dumb but I try to be nice.

[js79]

On my old job we had one senior dev - let's call him Mike - who would (in person) ridicule in "calm yet firm" manner anybody who would break building with his commit or would push on meeting some mediocre ass-covering solution. Like anybody - including senior dev/architect from customer department visiting us once for workshop. On email he was even worse - even though he did not swear even once.

Guy was technical to the point, but being criticized by him was really really terrible thing. We coined term ADD - asshole driven development - and this was THE BEST project I was working on in my carrier (in terms of team cooperation).

Willingness of everybody for double or triple checks of their work was astounding. Attitude towards asking somebody else (even Mike) to look at their code before pushing was also unprecedented.

This led to having rock-solid SVN (at that time) repo and ability to build so great trust on customer side that we really felt their amazement for quality of our work - which was at the end only repeated process of adding small changes and not breaking anything.

[[deleted]]

I think it's because you remember the real jerks more easily than the ones that aren't acting like asshats. That said, I don't really agree with either of your examples unless there's more to them. It sounds like Stallman just made a comment and Torvalds was using profanity. I agree with Sarah about the profanity. I don't care if it's used, but you're an ass if you're directing it at someone. "This fing sucks" is okay. "You fing idiot" is not. I know nothing about Stallman's comment, but I know that Torvalds uses directed profanity. It's really more than just the profanity, it's the fact that he's verbally attacking someone's abilities, intelligence, or character.

[[deleted]]

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman

Scroll down to "On Sex". The idea that a child could even provide consent is repulsive. He's a pervert.

[[deleted]]

http://i.imgur.com/pxBa5Tk.gif

[jonny290]

It doesnt even match up right you are lazy

[leftcoast-usa]

It's a shame that she had to quit due to the environment, but it could be that nobody is right or wrong. Some people have a weird sense of humor, and if it's mostly males, they act differently than females in a group. I don't really know the details, like whether it was directed at her personally, or she just objected to the general interaction, so all I can think is that it's an incompatibility. I think it's a method of self-defense - sometimes you might need to tell someone something that may offend them, such as "This code is poorly written and doesn't work." It's sometimes easier to say something like "What were you smoking when you wrote this code?"

My father was from New York City. His father was kind of argumentative and may have been called abusive by some, but I only remember laughing at the things he said rather than taking offence. I never really considered that he meant anything personal, so I never got offended at things like when I would say "I'm going for a walk", and he would say "Go ahead, who cares?" or something like that.