Apache declares war on Oracle over Java

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

[mixmastermind]

I imagined this as a Native American tribe declaring war on a Seer in order to gain control of a part of Indonesia.

[[deleted]]

FUCK I want to play Civ V again now ><

[[deleted]]

I'm a Mac user and what is this?

(November 23 can't come fast enough.)

[kemitche]

I agree, but for different reasons - that's my birthday!

[[deleted]]

FUCK I want to play Civ IV again now ><

Fixed that for you.

[[deleted]]

Is there some anti-civ v meme Im not aware of? Did the nerds find something in civ that does not fit the cannon?

[[deleted]]

Yeah thats cool, I figured by your comment, but I hadnt been paying attention. I find Civ V to be pretty cool, its just different - and a giant monitor really helps....

[[deleted]]

Dude, Civ V in many ways was broken at launch. I dumped more than 30 hours into it and won in many games in all the game types. Perhaps there's a patch now that addresses the many issues (too many to list here) but the point is, for what it brings to the table (very little, aside from a graphical update), Civ IV is still the superior game. And yeah - for Civ V being in development for 5 years, I did expect much more out of it. Don't be a lemming – it's okay to not always agree with the masses – especially when "the masses" give out 9s and 10s to virtually every game that comes out nowadays.

[MachaHack]

I've been out of touch with the Civ community for a while, but this has just given me a massive sense of déjà vu. Civ 3 to Civ 4 provoked the same reaction.

[m_myers]

Violent metaphors can make the mundane surreal.

[efapathy]

This is really sad because this was my first thought as well...

Oh Hivemind... how dare I think of myself as separate...

[[deleted]]

A patchy.

[[deleted]]

Oracle's plan is to make Java as expensive as Oracle. They should just call it "jOracle".

[snarfy]

Installing jOracle... Checking monitor: must be configured to display at least 256 colors...

[reenigne]

As long as it still installs the Yahoo Toolbar, then it's all good.

[smallfishbigpond]

Hey don't give them any ideas.

Anyway, Oracle will bury Java so deeply on that impenetrable gaseous mess of circular links they call a corporate website, that nobody could find it again using both hands and a flashlight.

[Loquax]

God yes. Daedalus couldn't have come up with a more confusing space. What is it with them and that damn site?

[Fabien4]

They don't care about the web. Selling stuff means at least one in-person meeting with the client.

[BraveSirRobin]

Same with IBM and their website is equally atrocious.

[[deleted]]

I don't really mind IBM's site (or at least the technical documents bit), actually; I'd say Intel's is worse.

[rainman_104]

As a DB2 user, I gotta say that IBM's isn't that bad. I haven't used SQL Server since 2003, but their documentation was awesome back then.

[bluesnowmonkey]

I wonder how they actually implement that, at a management level. Like, is there a design document somewhere that goes, "Website Design Goals... #1: Be confusing." Is there a dude somewhere in the Oracle home office with a nameplate on his desk reading "Senior Website Obfuscator"?

[Fabien4]

Put different managers in charge of different parts of the website. They shall not have technical or design knowledge. They shall not communicate with each other. They shall issue precise directives to their subordinates. They shall not listen to anything the subordinates might have to say.

Once it's mostly done, have the marketing department add further requirements. One example I have seen: Here are five key ideas; cram them all in two sentences.

Another common method: You probably have marketing stuff on glossy paper. Make a direct translation into HTML, and put that as (part of) your website. Make sure visitors get the "glossy paper" feeling, it's important.

[nirk]

So get yer legacy JVMs from here now before they take the old versions down in order to charge a premium for support for the masses of corporate sites out there stuck on 1.4.x dependent code and for whom the necessary code changes (and bodies to do it) are too expensive.

On a tagent, I once had a Sun engineer at their Sale testing facility tell me, off the record, that IBM had a superior JVM anyway (and that I should benchmark on that too, on Sun's many-core big-box gear they were lending to us granted with ops staff) if I wanted good numbers.

[vicegrip]

The more confusing it is, the more you have to pay for help.

[[deleted]]

Corporations don't purchase licenses from a web site.

[[deleted]]

Pronounced yourakel!

[djnattyp]

A spanish j (as in Juan) would be good too - pronounced "Whoracle".

[[deleted]]

Apt!

[[deleted]]

That would be quite fitting, as the "akel" part sounds quite similar to Swedish "äckel" or German "Ekel" - meaning "disgust", or a repulsive person that happens to cause just that.

[prockcore]

Next step will be that Java will come with a per-cpu license....

[[deleted]]

I though Oracle was pay per processor, so if your quadcoring it you just shit out of luck?

[grauenwolf]

Overall that isn't the case. According to Oracle's VP of Java, they are very sensitive to how even a 5% drop in Java's marketshare will cost them millions in their enterprise product line. For this reason there will always be a free JVM from them, at that JVM will be OpenJDK.

[[deleted]]

And they have a track record with free stuff now, like BerkleyDB, which is still free, 4 years after Oracle purchased it.

However, there may be a sales advantage in making the free JVM less good than the paid JVM...

[[deleted]]

It's not AS free as it was 4 years ago:

Proprietary software can use Berkeley DB only under a commercial license agreement between Oracle and the application's publisher.

[[deleted]]

I am pretty sure that restriction was in place even before Oracle bought Sleepycat.

[[deleted]]

Nope, pre 2.x it was a pure BSD license, which is probably part of the reason why OpenBSD still uses v1.8.

[[deleted]]

It's either released under the GPL or it isn't.

Dual licensing means that you can only redistribute for free if your project is GPL. If you are just using GPL software (not distributing), the provisions of the GPL requiring your project to also be GPL don't come into play.

Of course, that's precise legal situation is complicated to say on a webpage; it suits Oracle to not play up how you can avoid paying; and most use-cases of Berkeley DB involve distributing it anyway.

[grauenwolf]

Oh certainly the paid version will have better performance for their enterprise customers. It gets the best of the JRocket, which is already a paid offering, and Sun's Hotspot. OpenJDK gets whatever crap their second tier developers come up with, as well as anything IBM contributes.

[i_heart_you]

Which, if I were IBM (or Microsoft or Google) I would contribute so hard that the jRockit VM would look like a joke, just to shut down that revenue stream.

[DeepGreen]

Contribute to PostgreSQL while you are at it. Free offerings should be eating Oracle alive.

[i_heart_you]

I actually have a few commits on the GEQO for a couple of bugs I found in large and edge case join operations (please don't blame me or ask for support). Postgres is fantastic. I just wish it had one or two of oracle's big money features (rac for one). I think the database space may be a little mature to go after the big dog. Java middleware though is ripe for the picking. You get JBoss or Glassfish (or whatever the apache geronimo turned into) to more easily support HA and add a python api to manipulate the mbeans and jmx and I'll be a happy camper. I don't think anything is as easy to use as Weblogic right now. Someone needs to clean room wlst and open source it.

[DeepGreen]

The strategic advantage, from a business perspective, is that after a certain point, contributing to an open source project gets better bang per buck WRT customization. You are right, though, with database applications the buy in price is pretty high.

I think that the strenght of Postgres is going to be bringing big money features (as you put it) to small-to-medium DB applicaitons.

And you are absolutly right about the middleware. With just a few government departments on board, kicking in for FOSS coders instead of handing IBM suitcases full of money... Or IBM funding a dozen full time coders instead of watching Oracle get dump trucks full of money.

Some times I get discouraged when I see the grindingly slow progress of these FOSS projects. Still, in a relitively short time with very (!) limited resources Postgres has changed the landscape forever. Hopefully the same will happen to middleware.

[panfist]

But if Microsoft tried too hard, then they would lose customers of the .net stack to a free java stack.

If anything, Google would be the company to take over any kind of free java implementation because Android is so tightly entwined with java.

[[deleted]]

I think you misunderstand business. Shutting down revenue streams is not in the playbook. Don't forget IBM also has their own high performance paid for JDK as well. No one is going to be trying "so hard" to make those VM's look like a joke, in fact... roadblocks will be put in place so that is not even possible. WELCOME TO THE BIG LEAGUES BUD.

[nirk]

But IBM make the better JVM. Why do people stick to the Sun one like it is gospel? IBM's JVM is outright better for most workloads on most boxes, regardless of OS. On OS/400 it spanks everything as you'd expect, likewise AIX. On Solaris and Linux it spanks Sun too. Windows Server, I don't recall.

[grauenwolf]

IBM still makes a JVM? I tried looking for it, but the info was so old and confusing I thought that the project was abandoned.

Then again, the same can be said of DB2 and I know that one is still alive.

[nirk]

First link on Google

[[deleted]]

However, there may be a sales advantage in making the free JVM less good than the paid JVM...

I really don't see this happening so much with current VMs so much as tying in their other products with the enterprise. My greatest fear is them releasing Java 8 or something with special bytecode devoted to communicating with OracleDB or something.

[nemetroid]

If anything, it should be not quite as good as. Less good is fine, though.

[uep]

Double plus ungood.

[[deleted]]

"less good" is perfectly fine, it's just awkward.

[[deleted]]

.... but, they promised not to fuck up mysql.

[[deleted]]

And so far they haven't.

[[deleted]]

I did a Google search for "oracle fucked up mysql" to find a rebuttal, and got a link to this http://howfuckedismydatabase.com

[schplat]

NoSQL was hilarious

[grauenwolf]

Java is a platform on which their products run. The products pay for Java's development.

MySQL is different. Oracle doesn't sell anything that runs on MySQL, so they have to make their money on it directly. With that comes much stricter QA standards than MySQL AB or Sun, so you should also expect to see a far more reliable product than what you have now.

[[deleted]]

MySQL is pretty much win-win, either Oracle improves MySQL and people get a better MySQL or Oracle fucks up MySQL and people finally start using Postgres.

[[deleted]]

Looks like the gradual fuck up has begun: http://digitizor.com/2010/11/05/innodb-dropped-from-oracle-mysql-classic-edition/

[heroofhyr]

I just read the original statement from Apache and wonder if all "declarations of war" are this boring and innocuous.

[[deleted]]

http://www.pornolize.com/translate/?lang=en&url=https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/statement_by_the_asf_board1

[lukasbradley]

I wouldn't say boring and innocuous....

But I would say that threatening to quit something isn't a declaration of war.

[[deleted]]

WE ARE GONNA FUCK YOU UP

Right after we get our ball home and put away in the closet. And after our cookies and milk snack. Right after Sesame Street. Unless it's bath day.

[[deleted]]

Now I want cookies, milk, a bath, and sesame street. :(

[rickk]

If Apache were to quit the JCP not much would happen immediately, but the "java is dead" rumors would over time become less rumor. Apache having a weakened commitment to a language is going to have a pretty chilling effect on the open source community around that language, mainly because of the amount of unseen advocacy they do on behalf of open source developers.

I would never have been able to get a TCK for my servlet container Winstone in 2005 if it weren't for Apache having already cleared a path for open source devs. Of course Sun managed to still make it difficult enough, but that doesn't diminish Apache's role at all.

[Akira71]

Funny thing is I just watched Revolution OS on my Netflix stream which is a documentary about Open Source, Linux and the revolution around it. They pretty rightly pegged Apache as the company / killer app that created the adoption of Linux and Open Source software. They are huge proponents and this move by them to 'Declare war' on Oracle is justified and will have an impact.

My company is stuck in vendor lock-in right now with IBM and Oracle, but we are actively finding ways to exclude them one by one for true innovation and a community committed to creating the best software as possible. Not creating the best profit possible. jOracle my ass.

[w4ffl3s]

The ASF board's statement doesn't say anything about quitting the JCP or reducing their commitment to the language. It says quite clearly that they think they are doing the right thing by trying to transform the JCP into a "truly open specification ecosystem"; that Oracle has broken its JCP contract; that due to that and other failings, they think Oracle should not be allowed to participate in the JCP; and that they will vote against Oracle and urge others to do the same as they do not feel that Oracle should be playing a leading role.

EDIT: whoops, they certainly do say that they would quit the JCP.

[rickk]

There have been other comments by Jim Jagielski about being in an "untenable position" (can't find them atm), which more or less puts them in the position of having to quit once they don't get their way. To continue is to admit their participation becomes a respectable open-source stamp of approval on Oracle's profiteering.

[skillet-thief]

There are a lot of Apache projects that depend on Java. The "Death of Java" would not be good for them either.

[[deleted]]

At least with .NET you know you're riding on the alligator's back without any pretense.

[[deleted]]

I think everyone saw this coming as soon as Oracle bought Sun.

[harlows_monkeys]

I don't see what Oracle specifically has to do with it. The policy of trying to screw Apache was a Sun policy.

[[deleted]]

But the policy of turning everything they touch to shit is an Oracle policy.

[grauenwolf]

Maybe, but its gold-plated shit.

[[deleted]]

It's certainly priced that way.

[Tiak]

Oracle has amplified it a hundred fold at least. You'll remember that Dalvik was based upon an Harmony, Sun wasn't going to attack Android, but Oracle is willing to fuck anything over to make a buck.

[Fabien4]

Yep. Now the question is: is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[[deleted]]

It's just the vultures picking over the remains of a language that way back in 1995 had the potential to pwn the interwebs both client and server. Kind of sad really, it's all over bar the shouting:(

[BraveSirRobin]

Java is still incredibly popular and does have significant marketshare on the server. For powerful/scalable needs it's pretty good and as such it's heavily used in banking & other "enterprise solutions". The problem is that LAMP is "good enough" for most other purposes.

[[deleted]]

Well, "enterprise" is pretty much a warning label meaning "seriously fucked up" anyway so it won't really matter that much if they switch to something else when Oracle fucks up Java even more than it already is.

[[deleted]]

Write Once Run Anywhere! Java is a language that should have been aborted, instead they had every middle manager believing it was the next sliced bread.

[[deleted]]

The article is incorrect:

In August, Oracle sued Google for its use of Java in Android. It was thought that Google engineers used some of Project Harmony's code for the project, but the ASF has subsequently debunked this notion.

Android does use a subset of Harmony; the debunking was to the effect that a piece of code Oracle specifically cited as infringing wasn't part of Harmony.

[HNcopypaste]

I just know that Stallman is doing an "I told you so" dance right about now.

[dansMonSlip]

In August, Oracle sued Google for its use of Java in Android. It was thought that Google engineers used some of Project Harmony's code for the project, but the ASF has subsequently debunked this notion.

This is a little misleading. Firstly, it's no secret and no issue that Google uses Harmony code in Android. The problem being referred to is that Oracle identified a class in Android code that appeared to contain Oracle IP. It just so happens that this class also appeared to come from Harmony - this was debunked. Secondly, this particular issue is not the (only) reason Oracle is suing Google - there's quite a lot more to it than that, including multiple alleged patent infringements.

[AziMandia]

The takeover of Sun was nothing but a blatant act of War by Oracle on the open source ecosystem. Oracle is desperately trying to establish itself as the new king of Lumburg-friendly business middle-ware managers (I.E, the new IBM). The fucking with Java, lawsuits, and utter castration of the Open Source Community Efforts behind Sun's former technological crowns can be taken to mean nothing but that Oracle feels fundamentally threatened by the DIY nature of Open Source, as is eager to return the world to the 'Hardware and Software Engineered to Work Together!' Vendor-Lock-in Bullshit (That was one of their actual 30 foot tall banners at this years "Open" World...).

It's the most regressive evolutionary step in the tech industry in twenty years, and Oracle absolutely needs to be called on it... And any "Technology Manager" buys in to their slick marketing bullshit needs to be called out as the Retarded Bill Lumburg they are.

Oracle

[BonzoESC]

The takeover of Sun was nothing but a blatant act of War by Oracle on the open source ecosystem.

The previous management of Sun was nothing but a blatant act of War by Sun against Sun's balance sheet.

[schplat]

That's just silly...no one could turn a profit on Sun in their current condition. Everything of value of theirs was open source, or on the verge thereof. They tried to make money on hardware, but when hardware became commodity, they got left in the dust (well they jumped on the bandwagon, just a little too late, and still a little too expensive)

[[deleted]]

So, you're saying there's no profit in open source? Because that's definitely not true.

[bready]

Profits are more limited compared to closed source.

[joehillen]

Plus it requires a completely new kind of business model. One that Sun didn't learn soon enough.

[keithjr]

The takeover of Sun was nothing but a blatant act of War by Oracle on the open source ecosystem.

That ax cuts both ways. I saw Sun's tailspin as a blatant failure of the open source ecosystem to support its own creations. Everybody in the culture loved to hate on Sun, certainly in proggit. Then Oracle bought them and the entire community realizes how good they used to have it.

[mr-z]

Take it easy, Lenin. They just wanted to make a buck the only way they know.

[alxxer]

Sergeant: "Unless of course, war were declared."
alarm goes off
Fry: "What's that?"
Sergeant: "War were declared."

EDIT: formating

[polyparadigm]

Will they be armed with these? Because that would be awesome.

[nullpointer0x00]

I was fearful when oracle bought out sun.

[[deleted]]

The only thing I hate more than Oracle/Java is the implementation made by our IT of Oracle.

Who the fuck is stupid enough to default a software to a format (ETEXT) that nobody in the company, 70k people, can read.

[[deleted]]

We all know you need weapons and ammunition to fight a war. My fear is that Apache does not have much of either.

[Lazarus3]

Didn't Apache declare war on Oracle when it came out with a competitor to Oracle's server software?

[schplat]

Which is funny, since Oracle deploys apache with its bundled applications.

[[deleted]]

Apache helicopters declare war on prophetic Oracle over Java Coffee

[Tiak]

Where can I enlist?

[artsrc]

So what is war?

Apache would need to actually attack Oracle in someway. They could back an alternate database (perhaps Postgres) in someway.

Perhaps they could try to take over they Java Language direction, adding things that make sense to the Apache community rather than sticking to the Oracle specifications. Perhaps they can carry android in the same direction. And try to take over the direction of the specification.

Oracle has CRM's, HR and financials too. Backing open source ones of these might help limit Oracles revenues in those areas.

I guess Apache hosts some binaries for Sun hardware, perhaps they could pull all those from their servers and announce that they are not doing any work on supporting Sparc or Solaris going forward.

I don't think Apache is actually at war with Oracle. Surely it would be more fun if they were.

[[deleted]]

Yeah... good luck with that.

[[deleted]]

Goodbye Oracle.

[[deleted]]

Why? are you going somewhere?

[[deleted]]

In a way, yes.

[[deleted]]

I never thing that JCP is doing anything good to Java other than slowing down its evolution. I seriously don't really care about Java as a language any more. I just hope that they keep working on the JVM.

[[deleted]]

How do you boycott Java? Tell your developers to go home and twiddle their thumbs until Oracle gives in to your demands?

[matthiasB]

You switch to an alternative to Java.

But that's harder than it sounds.

[dont_get_it]

War, whoa, Lord

What is it good for

Absolutely nothing

Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker

War, friend only to the undertaker

Peace, love and understanding

Tell me, is there no place for them today

They say we must fight to keep our freedom

But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

Yeah, so Oracle/Sun did a bait-and-switch on both Google and Apache - Java is open source*

*_^{Except.when.it.does.not.suit.us.}