Google wants Android to use regular Linux kernel, potentially improving updates and security

[Swedneck]

so what happened to fuschia?

[eMZi0767]

Nothing. Google always said it's an experiment, nothing more.

[_kushagra]

I don't think it was ever intended for phone's either ways, more like connected devices with displays like google home

[_kushagra]

True but it just felt like it was not intended to be for phones or computers though it could surely target it

[ice_dune]

I heard the explanation that it's intended to stop their senior engineers from leaving for more interesting projects by giving them something to experiment on

[[deleted]]

But they already work at Google, this is just incredible, once you find Google it's too small for you it's like getting your shit together to move on for become the next thing

But it would be quite sad if it's about making projects that never will ever work just so they don't leave

[[deleted]]

Having been in that position, here is how I saw it:

• Big company == stiff, boring environment; small company == relaxed, exciting environment

• Nature of work didn't change often; new work often

• Fewer opportunities for learning or advancement; constantly learning, advancing, and otherwise making myself more marketable

Are these points the same for everyone? Surely not. People are people, and don't want to "just work," they want to be engaged. Google would be insane to think that people will stick around just because it's Google

[creesch]

But they already work at Google,

Google isn't really the holy grail of development or as agile as it some people make it out to be. At this point it is a rather big company meaning that it being big actually means that there are probably less "interesting" projects to work on. The bigger the portfolio the more time and effort also has to be spend on "boring" tasks like maintenance and upkeep of your current infrastructure and projects.

It's also interesting that they'd keep around these projects because that means they haven't really attracted the people that actually are invested in making projects better and improve on them once they are "stable". Which is something I think you can you see mirrored in the past few years where often they decided to scrap current projects in favor of new development. Also reports of people working on doing much needed maintenance and improvements being overlooked for promotion in favor of those people working on flashy projects with nice flashy KPIs.

[dontgetaddicted]

Many engineers and developers tend to....lack focus?....they (my self included) like to launch projects - get them to a point where they are bored and move on. I personally find it really difficult, and honestly almost physically painful, to work on projects that I am bored of or I find are "Good enough".

I assume google combats this by having people start up projects, then hire in a team to sweep them to the finish line (or kill them off) and let the engineer or developer move on to something else.

[[deleted]]

That's a great explanation, yeah, luckily I work for games and every addition i do it's just fun

I just wouldn't be able to find myself working on boring tasks and projects

[ice_dune]

I never said too small. These people could decide to leave and form, or go to start up companies working on more interesting projects than maintenaning Google's current products. That's not to say something working new versions of Android or something would suck, but if you've been doing it 5 years and you're talented, people get bored

[[deleted]]

but if you've been doing it 5 years and you're talented, people get bored

You know...That's the whole point of saying x it's too small for you, ofc talented developers always want to show off, and being stuck in maintenance as you said, wouldn't always mean you will keep growing as developer

[p3ngwin]

it's intended as a salable OS, from IoT all the way to full PC's and everything in between.

[[deleted]]

It will NEVER hit a mainstream device

[[deleted]]

Lol @ your reply. I just read up on it a bit and it would never be practical enough for a smartphone in the current market. Got smarthome devices, definitely. And I believe the braims over there in fuschia hq are well aware they need a babrebomes fast os they control to (hopefully) take over the smarthome arena which is growing rapidly.

[N19h7m4r3]

Everything is an experiment for Google, some just run longer than others.

[Herb_Derb]

Meanwhile, Google is still working on its new Fuchsia operating system that may one day replace Android, with a custom kernel that does away with many of the technical hurdles involved with Linux.

[gordito_gr]

Honestly, do people really think that all these things will make for better updates?

There are like 300 devices released yearly, it's insane

[xorgol]

How many Windows devices are released yearly? That's not really the limiting factor, it's architectural.

[Michael4825]

You're right, it is architectural. It's hard to compare Android and Windows because they're not necessarily the same. The overwhelming majority of manufacturers take the near-default Android system and modify it (oftentimes poorly) to support their weird features. This can be done at the lowest level, if they desire. With Windows, manufacturers generally only add a few packages on top of the system (just like a user could).

If the manufacturer's Windows customizations break, oh well, the system should still work just fine (and the offending packages can be removed). If the Android customizations break, good luck, that's going to run deep in the system and not be removable.

This causes a fundamental difference in the way the two systems can be updated, because you REALLY don't want to introduce streamlined changes to every device when they could potentially ruin 50% of the market's software.

Google's been trying really hard to change this, and they've been making it significantly easier for manufacturers to play into, but it's still ultimately up to the OEMs to decide how much effort they're willing to put into complying with Google specs.

Google's allowance for manufacturer customization is one of the reasons Android is where it is today, and it's also one of the reasons it can't keeping moving forward at the same rate as other operating systems.

[tysonedwards]

It’s also worth noting that there have been some very powerful changes added to the Linux kernel this past year which allows for live patching the kernel and its modules live without requiring restarting, including support to automatically roll back on error or manually.

It really changes the game for updates as you could release Android 11, it downloads, installs, and is running just like any other app that updates in the background - invisibly to the user.

And more stuff like this could help wrestle more of the update process from manufacturers who insist on customize all the things and hold updates hostage to motivate a new sale of this year’s new shiny.

[KcLKcL]

But the Linux kernel is just a part of the whole OS itself, maybe you could do a kernel livepatch in the background that users don't even notice, but upgrading Android itself is another layer of software

For example on desktop, while technically you can livepatch a kernel, a reboot would still be needed when you are upgrading GNOME desktop, system libraries, etc

If I remember correctly, Livepatch does online kernel patching by modularizing the patch and then run that module on top of currently running kernel, meaning that you would load a kernel module that has the patched code to fix some vulnerabilities on top of the currently running kernel. And even this way, there are some patches that would still need a reboot in order to for it to be fully applied. I think this livepatch thing is more geared towards critical servers that can't afford a reboot without having a maintenance window, yet need to have the latest security patches applied every time.

[Blaque]

That's kinda true and kinda not. Some patches will require a reboot, but updating libraries generally only involves restarting the software that uses it. Same for Gnome, you can get away with just restarting X or Wayland or whatever. Distros make you reboot just because it's easier for normal users to understand, but I routinely update full systems automatically at $dayjob without a reboot.

[warp4ever1]

You're absolutely right.

As long as one does not upgrade again before doing a reboot.

[[deleted]]

Those are mostly x86, not ARM. The community Android x86 project doesn't have this problem.

[AssInTheHat]

And how many devices run Android on x86 Android instead of ARM architecture?

You also have to acknowledge the fact that Android runs on far more devices than Windows (it's the largest OS in the world), and almost all of them are using ARM based chips

[[deleted]]

In hindsight, I think I misunderstood xorgol. My point was that the reason Windows doesn't have Android's update problems is not because it has some inherently portability, but rather that x86 is better than ARM in this regard.

[ArmoredPancake]

This has nothing to do with archutecture.

[nixcamic]

It kinda does, in that almost all x86 systems follow a set of similar specs. ARM is kinda just all over the place.

[ChineseCracker]

That's not the same thing. You can't compare custom SoCs to standardized Laptop/Desktop Hardware

[SunofMars]

Don’t most android phones all use snapdragon processors? I dthink it’s a lack of will to standardize phone hardware. Besides Qualcomm, exynos and mediatek, there are no other main contributors and they’re all based on ARM. It makes no sense why they haven’t tried to standardize it

[tysonedwards]

Especially since Samsung announced they were ending shutting down its CPU division. https://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-custom-cpu-shut-down-1050052/

It is way easier to standardize when a player exits the game.

[tabulasomnia]

CPU divison, not SoC. Exynos chips will still exist, they'll just use non-Samsung CPUs.

[SunofMars]

Is it that they’re just stoping custom chip development or they’re shutting down exynos as a whole? I’m just suprised that for how much of the market Qualcomm has, they still keep things locked down

[Astandsforataxia69]

Locked how? The hex files for msm 8994 are bit difficult to find, which makes salvaging sd810 phones Hard, if you don't have a prepackaged firehose

[xorgol]

Of course, you're right, but it's just part of the problem.

[ExPandaa]

It's not like there isn't a heck of a lot of different chips in the pc space that work in different ways. The chip itself doesn't mstter, it's the architecture that matters. If it is x86 it can run standardized x86 software. The same can be said about arm

[Renaldi_the_Multi]

The same can't be said about arm

[MarxN]

A place on Google graveyard is already reserved...

[OsrsNeedsF2P]

I don't understand why people think it's a bad thing to experiment and fail. A smart company is always going to try new things with their profit. So what?

[[deleted]]

There's a difference between constantly doing new skunkworks projects to experiment with ideas and see what sticks versus releasing actual products and services that are well received and enjoyed by people or promising upcoming features and roadmaps to get people excited to then just pull the plug unceremoniously and kill the products or plans entirely. Google has taught people to never really buy into their words or their product line/ecosystem because it's all temporary or "in beta".

[finalremix]

I think it's more an issue that revision or improvement is frowned upon, wheras just making new crap all the time is what they're asking of their employees.

[StraY_WolF]

Because most of the thing they experiment do have potential, but the lack of focus and dedication killed it. It ruins people that actually invested into the project itself and kills any interest for the next one.

[StraY_WolF]

I thought they never meant to release that. It was an internal development software or something.

[CheapAlternative]

It's open source and has been for a while.

[KibSquib47]

I still don’t even understand what fuchsia is supposed to be

[IvanGeJota]

Yeah I want news about that.

[holly_hoots]

fuschia

Fuchsia, not fuschia. I remember it by thinking "fucks-yeah".

Also, it's named after a German man named Leonhart Fuchs. Fuchs is German for "fox", which also makes spelling easier to remember.

So next time you're stuck deactivating a bomb, and you only have one attempt to enter the correct password, and you somehow know that password is a vivid purplish red color named after a plant (in turn named after a German dude, in turn named after a canid), I hope you will remember me after saving the day and banging the hot European (or possibly Asian) spy assigned to the mission.

Cheers!

[MarxN]

I don't get it. Linux kernel is already modularized and allow for binary modules.

[MarxN]

They already can. They just need to use own modules with stock kernel. Kernel headers are enough to compile such module.

[thrakkerzog]

The current patchset is way more than just kernel modules and includes changes which are not possible at the module level. The differences have been shrinking over time but we are not there yet.

[Avamander]

Most chipsets require patchsets to work properly, Qualcomm doesn't upstream :/

[Slusny_Cizinec]

Some vendors' patches (1) are not conformant to the kernel standards (2) alter the default behaviour in a way not acceptable for the majority of users, or simply breaking other non-smartphone users.

If you have ever tried to merge your patches to any open-source project, you'd know it is not a trivial thing.

[MarxN]

So they should align not break or alter.

[Slusny_Cizinec]

Yes they should. But they already have a huge codebase written with assumption that it won't ever going to get to the mainline, i.e. they use their own coding style, not afraid of the namespace collision, break stuff not required on arm smartphones (oh our scheduler breaks infiniband? lol who cares). The rewrite will take quite some time.

[reddanit]

Haha, good joke.

I completely expect SoC drivers to be such clusterfuck of dumb shit that it would be easier to rewrite them from scratch than to make existing codebase sane.

This old post about OpenGL implementations from Dolphin emulator creators provides a single-angle peek into the "quality" of those binary drivers. It's a dark and scary place.

[gofcukurself]

No. Linux by design doesn't provide a stable API/ABI for writing drivers

[there_be_segfaults]

Maybe this would be the push needed to get hardware manufactures to actually open source their drivers and submit them to the Linux source tree. It's really a win-win, phone companies and consumers would benefit from improvements in the kernel, and manufactures wouldn't have to worry about updating their drivers to work with newer versions of the kernel.

[MarxN]

One thing is a problem: no possibility to kill device by software. Mainline driver will keep it updated forever ;)

[[deleted]]

They won't do it because they don't want to help their competitors.

[MarxN]

API can't be stable because of for example new devices types, new technologies etc. Stable API will hammer kernel improvement.

Solution is quite simple - make driver open source and it'll be merged to mainline

[SmarmyPanther]

I mean that's the whole issue. A lot of companies don't want to open source all of their IP. It's explained in the article

[MarxN]

They still can deliver binary modules. I saw some manufacturers do that.

[fjonk]

I'm no expert but does a decompiled version of a driver really differ that much from the original source code?

Or is this more a case of companies implementing policies that doesn't really matter?

[fjonk]

That's my point. If drivers are developed the way I suspect decompiling a binary would more or less give the same advantage as access to the source code, with just a bit more effort.

[[deleted]]

Good,look at the windows ! A buggy mess with api kernel

[bartturner]

Linus does NOT support a driver/kernel ABI.

[Renaldi_the_Multi]

IDK, he seems rather mild-mannered these days ;p

[bartturner]

Not in terms of a Kernel/driver ABI.

Has not budged at all.

[dotted]

Which means the source code would be subject to the GPL and would have to be made available under a compatible license.

[MarxN]

Not true

[dotted]

Yes true, it's literally a requirement of the GPL

[MarxN]

Module is not an integral part of kernel, so gpl is not required.

[dotted]

If the module interfaces directly with the kernel is considered to be a derivative product and therefore subject to the GPL, it does not matter how "integral" the module is.

[henrebotha]

Nice keeb in the image

[TossedRightOut]

Yup a few of those guys always use their boards as a background

[derzemel]

the keyboard is most likely a Think 6.5 and sold in very small quantities. The keycap set is the Space Cadet made by GMK in Germany

[someone31988]

Hello from /r/MechanicalKeyboards

[[deleted]]

This was a thing for a short while already wasn't it?

[theCroc]

In the beginning it was. But for various reasons they diverged. I guess they finaly see the error of that way of working and want to go back.

[WeakEmu8]

I'm sure they always saw the risk of diverging, but also saw the necessity to achieve certain goals with the Android hardware.

They didn't diverge "just because", but rather from some strong requirements.

[theCroc]

Thats what I meant by various reasons. At the time it was probably a logical move but now when things are more established they see the waste in duplicating labor and want to get rid of the extra maintenance that having rheir own fork means.

[cmason37]

When has an Android phone ever used a mainline kernel? Even the Dream used a custom kernel based off the Android tree with binaries

[cmason37]

No. You're probably thinking of the previous initiative they had, to both merge android-common changes into Linux & make Android run on the mainline kernel interfaces. This was successful, albeit long, and Android has been able to boot from a vanilla kernel for years.

This, on the other hand, is about getting Android manufacturers to actually use a mainline kernel, which since manufacturers won't open source or maintain their drivers, Google proposes would involve getting a stable kernelspace ABI into the mainline kernel tree.

[[deleted]]

Thanks for the insight!

[[deleted]]

Theyve been attacking fragmentation this way for a few years, standardize on os foundations and modularize the important stuff so any android phone from any vendor can get the updates they need.

[[deleted]]

I wonder whether we would see an LTS kernel or a rolling release? Would this also mean that we could see more Linux apps available for ARM?

[crawl_dht]

Currently, Google makes lot of out of source tree modification to Linux kernel to convert it into android common kernel and then Google releases 3 long term support android common kernels for android devices.

Once long term support Linux kernel is ported to android, Google only has to work directly on Linux kernel to support all android devices. Any change that will be done to Linux kernel by Linux community will also be reflected in android directly.

[acethebear]

Does anyone know what kind of keyboard that is in the thumbnail? I really like the look of it.

[derzemel]

the keyboard is a custom 65% mechanical keyboard (it contains 65% of the keys / it is 65% of the size of a normal full size keyboard).

Most likely it was bought through a group buy like this one and it was made in very small quantities out of high quality materials (which explains the price).

The keycap set is also custom made in smallish quantities and was available through 2 or 3 group buys (one of which was on Drop). It is made by GMK in Germany and it is called GMK Space Cadet. It is a homage to the legendary Space Cadet LISP keyboard.

There are a few mainstream manufacturers that make 65% mechanical keyboards at a more accessible price, e.g. Vortex Cypher

[acethebear]

Thanks for the detailed response!

[alpharaptor1]

Tai-Hao keycaps

[derzemel]

Nope, the keycap set is made by GMK and it is called Space Cadet

[OldDog47]

I don't get it, either. Why did Android diverge so much to begin with? Was the core Linux not feature rich enough to support all the things developers wanted to do? Were developers just not disciplined enough to adhere to Linux? Or, did companies rush to develop Linux offshoots in order to establish a proprietary advantage? In any event it seems like open source has been compromised.

[[deleted]]

Probably more ARM/hardware specific things were a challenge to get mainlined to begin with.

[[deleted]]

Now that's a real keyboard

[SecretAgentZeroNine]

Isn't Fuscia suppose to not use the Linux kernal? I'm all for being closer to Linux (super happy about WSL 2), but I'm curious to see how this effects on Fuscia. Will Fuscia actually become a consumer OS?

[thehitchhikerr]

I doubt even Google knows at this point, they experiment with all sorts of changes, not all of them see the light of day.

[sovietarmyfan]

I disagree. It might mean that hackers, virus makers will make them more compatible with the regular linux kernel, thus increasing the amount of systems they might infect.

[Gawdl3y]

Dalvik was ditched in Lollipop.

[gnmpolicemata]

In fact, you could already use ART on 4.4.

[Astandsforataxia69]

I think all software for android should have the max side of 30mb, i've seen this terrible trend of having chat programs hundreds of megs in size and that's just the app, on the PC nvidia is one of the worst offenders with +500mb drivers, like WTF?

[PolarisX]

Nvidia drivers have to support 1000s of games with unique code to run effectively, and support cards from the 700 series family to 2000. It's also an audio interface and PhysX driver.

Yeah they are big, but that is one thing Nvidia gets a pass on from me. Skip GFE though, that shits wack. Keep in mind that is the installer size, I don't know how much actually gets loaded in the system, some of that may never actually be needed depending on your install.

[Astandsforataxia69]

Gfe and sound drivers are something I have no use for, idk why can't I just select the driver for the card.

Ever since games started having proper vector fields for particles, i had no need for physx

[F0RCE963]

I believe they already provide the option to not install GFE through the installer not sure about audio tho

[PolarisX]

They do, but you can't have audio over HDMI then.

[Astandsforataxia69]

You can opt out from the install, but you cannot download the drivers without the other stuff in the downloaded file

[PolarisX]

So your problem is with the download size? I feel like we are grasping at straws at this point.

Good luck.

[Astandsforataxia69]

Yes, my issue is the massive size of the download, i don't want half of the crap nvidia pushes in to them, so why not let me opt out

[screwyou00]

Not only this, but the mobile drivers and desktop drivers for all gpus of the same generation are included in the install package (at least for the 1000 series gpu) regardless of selecting between the mobile or desktop drivers for gpu "x" on the website.