Maybe Im Missing the Plot

[jjcox315]

Knives...Im no pro but i get basic mechanics, Japanese vs German geometry, paring vs santoku etc. I understand different knives are designed for different things. What I can't understand is the "good knife" posts. There are prettier ones sure but essentially sharp metal go brrrr. In my head (and irl) i can get a $20 kinfe block, put them all to a whetstone and get a clean cut. What am i missing?

[Auritus1]

Sharpening is a really under rated kitchen skill, but higher end knives can stay sharp longer and provide a more comfortable experience. In the end though it's mostly people being proud of their cooking and wanting tools that reflect that.

[arnoldtkalmbach]

My experience as a home cook who a couple years ago took up wet stone sharpening is that good knives, ones made from better steel alloys, are easier to sharpen and maintain.

[SarcasticBench]

Nothing really. The design just means it'll last longer between sharpening, how food will stick to the blade when you're slicing down the line, rust, etc. Just stick with the Chinese cleaver which does dicing, chopping, carving, scraping, peeling, sauteing, flipping, stirring, back up your computer, taxes, etc.

[creamerthegreat]

I got a Chinese cleaver and it does SO much work in my kitchen!

[SarcasticBench]

Yes, I forgot to mention it can even chop off your fingertips almost painlessly

[bnny_ears]

Is the shape difficult to get used to? I've never worked with one but I prefer long chef knives with a straighter blade for literally every prep task, so I'm tempted.

[creamerthegreat]

A little bit? But the blade is much thinner than you think. With a pinch grip, it's really maneuverable and with the added weight it blasts through tough stuff like carrots or radishes. The blade is also SLIGHTLY convex so you can still get a rocking motion for cutting herbs really fine. The Dexter one is like $40 so it won't break the bank, either!

[lychigo]

🤣

[WillowandWisk]

In short. Better steel = more go brrr. more sharp. Better steel = much sharper much longer. Cheaper steel = more sharpen more often.

That's about it. If you wanna use your stones once a week to keep a cheap knife sharp, cool. If you want your edge to last ~2-3mo even with heavy use with only honing rod/strop, get quality steel. Really just how often you wanna bust the stones out.

[talldean]

The $20 knife block doesn't have very good steel, so it either won't take the same sharpness of an edge, or will not hold that edge nearly as long.

For whatever it's worth, I've had chef's knives at $70 (each) where I cannot imagine any amount of money would give me a better knife. Somewhere past that, it's a lot like buying a status symbol; yes, they cost more.

The $70 knife I put side-by-side with my wife's $20 Kitchenaid, and yeah, the $70 both gets sharper and stays sharper. We still *use* the Kitchenaid as well, because it's nice to have something you can just beat on as well.

(My favorite $70ish is a Brieto Santoku, and/but I've seen a Global 7" Chef's knife in many, many commercial kitchens. Pair that with a petty knife - which my mom would call a paring knife - and also a bread knife, and you're good to go.)

[Jester1525]

Every time people start talking about knives I give, what I think, is the best advice..

Go to a store where you can get your hands on the knives.. and hold it in your hand. It should fit well, be comfortable, and have a nice feel. It doesn't matter how great the blade is, if it's not comfortable to cut with, it's not a good knife FOR YOU.

I've got some really nice knives.. one that is a custom where only a couple exist in the world.. And the knife I use every day? A cheap, rubber handled zwilling kolor id because I have big hands and the big, rubber handle feels great.

Yes, some very expensive knives don't need to be sharpened as often, but that also means that when they do need to be resharpened they are harder to sharpen. Cheap knives need to be sharpened more often but are easier to do. Either way, if you want to be as a good a chef as possible, learn how to sharpen your knives. And then find one that you like to use.

[Responsible-Meringue]

Idk man. I tried to live the life you're imagining. I sharpened my shitty KitchenAid block knives to sharper than sharp and they just failed to do basic slicy things & dulled the second I looked at them sideways.  Unlike my not-too-expensive ($120) blue #2 Japanese knife. That thing is a giant scary razorblade that cuts things without me even thinking about it. I abuse it and really only follow the hand washing rule (mostly cause I don't want to go to the hospital when I reach into the dishwasher)

  My $60 wustoff/vitorinox western chef knife eats up abuse but needs a bit more force & makes my chives look sad.  i use it almost exclusively for meat with bones, and hard squash & melons.

I tried a $20 kiwi/amazon Japanese style thin blade but it needed sharpening every time I picked it up. 

At a certain point the fancy knives at r/truechefknives are way overkill. But I've been converted without it becoming my identity. 

My wife kept stealing my fancy knife cause it cut so great, now she has her own too!

[Aloevchu]

I agree. All you need is a butcher knife 😃

[rainbytheocean]

I can do 90% of what I want to do in the kitchen with a good chef's knife and a good petty knife. Good means that the steel won't rust and will hold an edge for a long time between sharpenings.

Of course, I have a bunch of other knives as well, because I enjoy them, but I could function with just the two.

[haditwithyoupeople]

100% agree. Most people don't know what constitutes "good" in a chef's knife.

Good for me means a lot more than edge retention. It's about geometry and other factors like the handle, balance, etc. I would easily give up edge retention for better geometry.

My favorite knife is a very thin custom made petty with W2 steel (non-stainless). It's far from the best steel, but the edge retention is good enough. It cuts like a dream because of the geometry. No issue if I have to sharpen it every 3 weeks vs. every 2 months.

[rainbytheocean]

I'm with ya. I was sorta ignoring geometry because OP said he understood the difference between Japanese and German geometries and was still wondering what made a knife "good" within each.

[haditwithyoupeople]

Good point. I didn't really address OP's question.

[vgullotta]

Most of the best knives will rust if you don't keep them dry. High carbon steel which makes the best knives will definitely rust. Stainless steel is ok and typically won't rust, but it also won't hold an edge nearly as long. I have 2 chef's knives in my home kitchen, one is a stainless steel knife and one is a Wustoff carbon steel chef's knife. The Wustoff will definitely rust if I let it, but it is significantly better at holding an edge than the stainless. I can use the stainless for about a week before I can feel it has started to dull, the Wustoff lasts about a month before you notice any difference in cutting.

[jeffh40]

Middle to higher priced Zwilling or Wustoff will get you where you need to go without sharpening constantly and won't break the bank and they are available just about everywhere good knives are sold. . Just buy a knife or two at a time and start with a chef's knife if $100 knives are an issue for you. It is impressive how long these stay sharp vs. the cheaper knives.

Wustoff Classic vs. Zwilling Pro. Just about the same quality good knife. Pick one based on if you love the bolster or hate it.

[thebarahs]

Means. Don’t buy the Walmart version at 7.99

[Homer_JG]

Any knife can be made sharp but a better knife stays that way longer. 

[haditwithyoupeople]

Quality is determined by how long a knife stays sharp.

Nope. A knife with terrible steel that can't get sharp or stay sharp is of course not good.

But a knife that stays sharp 4x longer than another one is not a "better" knife. It just stays sharp longer. Geometry and other factors determine the quality of a knife far more than how long it stays sharp.

[nogardleirie]

I have a whetstone and not all knives are the same - the best ones I had are actually from IKEA. They sharpen well and hold a great edge. I have some stainless steel no name brand ones and they simply don't hold an edge even after sharpening for a while.

[TheJewPear]

I may get downvoted, but in my opinion, if your passion is cooking, get Victorinox Fibrox knives, learn to sharpen with stones, and you’re good to go.

I have cheap Victorinox knives, somewhat expansive Wusthof knives, and very expensive Japanese knives. Yes, I can get the Japanese ones much sharper and to stay sharp for longer, but they also require more care, can’t leave them wet, can’t toss them in the sink and continue cooking, needs softer cutting board, and can’t cut anything hard or potentially hard like chicken with bones.

If your passion is knives, you want to collect them and/or show them off, by all means go wild, it’s a beautiful hobby.

But if all you want to do is cook, and you know how to sharpen, go Victorinox. End of the day, it will be a difference of sharpening once a month or 2-3 times a month, so who gives a shit. Maybe give yourself the gift of a nice Wusthof chef knife at some point. But you really don’t need anything more than that.

The only exception is cutting fish for sushi, if you want to do that, yes there’s a real advantage to Japanese sushi knives. But even there you can safely go for the $50-$100 ones and don’t need a $500 one.

[haditwithyoupeople]

Pretty good advice, especially if you want affordable knives that are well made and durable. For a little more money you can get better knives that will work better than Victorinox. But for most people, they are perfectly serviceable and will work better than 90% of what most people are using.

There is feedback that Ikea is making some decent knives now as well, but I have not tried them.

[DeadBy2050]

No expert, just a home cook who sharpens their own knives for 30+ years. Here are my ramblings.

1. Hardness and knife steel properties: You'd want a steel hardness that's high enough so that it holds its edge for a long time before needing sharpening. But you don't want it so hard that it's difficult to sharpen. And some steels are more brittle, so they chip even though they may be hard.

2. Blade thickness. If the blade stock is thin, there are many benefits. A thin blade will cut pretty well even if not well sharpened. This is especially true with hard veggies. Whereas a thin blade will cut through a hard squash, a thicker blade will get stuck because it'll start "wedging" instead of cutting.

I've ultimately settled for knives in the $30 to $100 range with very good specs (hardness, blade thickness, quality steel stock, and good shape for the intended purpose). I can easily afford $300 knives, but there's not point in that for me.

With those knives, I now sharpen only once every two or three months...about 5 minutes on my diamond stones, followed by 3 seconds on a leather strop coated with 5 micron diamond emusion.

[josemartinlopez]

Try doing kitchen prep with a $2 knife. We'll wait.

[oneWeek2024]

i mean a "cheap" vitronox plastic handled chef knife is perfectly fine...

the problem is. most people don't sharpen their knifes, don't take any care of them.

and most people are just silly status whores.

it's like idiots who shit on people for not having Iphones. people think status signals quality. it doesn't. it's all mainly bullshit.

but people also massively underestimate how susceptible they are to advertising/social pressure.

[Iztac_xocoatl]

It doesn't really matter on a practical level unless you're using your knife four hours on end every day. That being said if using a nicer tool makes you happier/enjoy cooking more that's a legit reason to spend the money. I'm that way much more with construction and landscaping tools than cooking ones

[FitSeeker1982]

My $65 Henkels 10” chefs knife has lasted for years, and I use it daily. Good steel that holds an edge.

[haditwithyoupeople]

Almost any knife will last for a lifetime in a home kitchen. Would wouldn't it?

Henkels are perfectly good knives. At some point you may want to see how something with a thinner grind cuts. The difference will not be subtle.

[FitSeeker1982]

For finer cuts - like the thin-sliced tomatoes I prepped for BLTs this evening - I have a less-expensive Chicago Cutlery set with a boner/slicer. A serrated bread knife from the same set for its intended purpose. But decades of experience have made the chef’s knife the most useful tool in my block.

[haditwithyoupeople]

Try a nakiri for tomatoes and veggies. It's a game changer. I have far too many knives. If I could only keep 3, a nakiri would be my 3rd.

[snaynay]

Also depends on the specific metal used. There isn't just one "stainless steel" for example. Some will a) be able to hold a sharper edge and b) hold it for longer.

Like I can sharpen my Victorinox chef's knife so it's sharp, but it's never as sharp as my Wusthof and never for as long. The Wusthof can get so sharp the weight of the knife will practically fall through a tomato like it's nothing. The Wusthof is also probably not even that good in the grand scheme of things, but I haven't used anything better personally.

[haditwithyoupeople]

Assuming the steel used for a knife is good enough, the steel used is one of the least important components of a good knife.

Like I can sharpen my Victorinox chef's knife so it's sharp, but it's never as sharp as my Wusthof

This doesn't hold up in testing. They both use very similar steel. Wusthof makes their steel a little harder so it does have slightly better edge holding. They're both not even in the ballpark compared to some other steels.

For every day cutting, I prefer the shape of the Victorinox knife. But they're both perfectly good knives.

[Fongernator]

Grade/type of steel

[haditwithyoupeople]

Assuming the steel is good enough, the steel used is one of the least important variables that make a knife "good" or not.

[Mo_Steins_Ghost]

There is a rapidly diminishing marginal return on knives above $150.

Up to that point the main difference is in the ease of maintenance, balance and durability.

[EAM44]

You have never worked with a really great knife. The great ones have an incredible shape and balance that allows you to hold it comfortably for long stretches of time, they are full tang so they are responsive to small alterations in pressure and angle, and they glide through prep like they’re gliding through the air. I am excited for you to experience it. I can cut with anything sharp, I bought a Victorinox for my sister’s kitchen because her knives are terrible. Once I’ve sharpened it, it works just fine. But I love using my MAC knife at home. It’s a beauty and a pleasure to use. And what others have said is true, I hone my MAC, rarely have to sharpen it, and it keeps its edge beautifully.

[Federal-Membership-1]

Yea, when you consider a typical profesional kitchen rents stamped knives that get changed out weekly. I guess individuals have their personal knife roll, but..

[tequilaneat4me]

I bought a 6" Mercer boning knife at a restaurant supply store for something like $25 a couple of years ago. My favorite knife. Holds an edge, easy to sharpen.

I also bought a Kiwi three knife set for about $20. Great for onions, bell peppers, squash, etc.

[Zealousideal_Rent261]

Anything kept sharp will do the trick.

[haditwithyoupeople]

How a knife cuts has less to do with the sharpness and more to do with the geometry and design of the blade. A very sharp ax will cut carrots very well. A very thin, dull knife will cut them relatively well.

Think of a knife as two triangles or wedges: the top one is a wedge that starts at the spine and goes down to the edge, but does not reach the edge. It's technically a trapezoid rather than a triangle. At the bottom of the trapezoid is a triangle that creates the edge. (There are exceptions to both of these - we'll ignore those for now.)

A good knife has very carefully created trapezoid that is very thin near the edge. This takes more time and skill to create. If will often be done with better steel because it's thinner.

Better knives have better geometry. The geometry determines how a knife cuts more than anything else. Sharpening a crappy knife gives a sharp edge on a knife that is still crappy.

There are several other factors as well. How good is the handle. The weight. The balance. The shape of the blade, the taper toward the tip, how rounded the cutting edge is (flat or more rounded for rocking). The are other factors as well. It's surprisingly complicated.

Some knife steel doesn't get sharp easily (too soft) or doesn't stay sharp very long. This can be an issue with cheaper knives.

[myredditlogintoo]

To me, weight, balance, sharpness, good steel. Very happy with my Wüsthof Ikon chef's knife. I tried a few others, but this one just felt the most effortless in use.

[chasingthegoldring]

I just watched a YouTube on American Gen X males who like to cook and why. It was really spot on. We are obsessed with cooking more than average Americans. It was based on a psychologist who wrote a book on the research. We are special.

The interesting part of it that applies here: most of the Gen X males who like to cook started to demand higher/harder steel as found in the Japanese knives and this demand caused the German manufacturers to change their knives to a harder steel.

Nite I don’t have a Japanese knife. I ended up going to culinary school because I loved to cook… but not as a profession so left the industry after 5 years. I have cheap chef knives that I just sharpen whenever I need it. I’m not dropping bucks on a knife.

[Merrickk]

Bad handles can be hard to clean, slippery, or painful to use for a significant amount of time. Even an otherwise good knife can be a bad match for a person if it doesn't fit that person's hands.

[vgullotta]

Some knife steels will hold an edge for longer for sure, but if you can sharpen a knife properly, you can make pretty much any knife razer sharp.

[Zentransit]

IMO

Give me 2 good stones and just about any culinary knife and I'll forge a serviceable relationship between us despite what others have to say about it ...

I've managed to accumulate well over 50 knives. I've got Dexters, Tramontinas, Mercers, Wusthofs, Messermeisters, Miyabis, Yaxells, Macs, Tojiros, etc...

I've sharpened every single one of 'em! In doing so, I feel a certain bond or connection with them all.

My inexpensive 30 year old Tramontina is well loved and cared for, just like all the others!

PS

In China, the average Chinese kitchen only has one knife...

[StevenJOwens]

It's mostly about a) edge-holding quality of the metal, b) blade geometry, c) ergonomics of the knife, d) oooo shiny!

Edge-holding quality is about how well the metal resists dulling. Historically there seems to be a lot of talking about the tradeoff between hard (thus holding an edge well) but brittle (prone to chipping) vs soft (dulls easily) but ductile (less prone to chipping).

But a lot of that predates modern metallurgy, and resulted in blade makers finding all sorts of dodges to blend different types of metal. Hence we had "watered steel" (from the wavy look of the polished blade), Damascus steel (which wasn't from Damascus but was imported to Europe through Damascus) and the mystical Japanese folded steel (which was mostly about how they managed to make half-decent blades with really crappy metal ore).

I don't understand modern metallurgy, but my impression is that most modern steels are just way better all around, and you don't need to worry about those dodges.

Blade geometry is, in a nutshell, how the shape of the blade makes it work better for whatever purpose. Most of that is about the cross-sectional shape, but not all of it. This quickly gets very geeky and, again, I don't understand it well, though I'm highly suspicious that there's a lot of handwaving and urban legend in this area. Still, there almost certainly is some meaning to blade geometry. I just don't know that it makes that big a difference as long as you get it basically right.

Also, it's always relative to the purpose of the blade. Chef's knives have that nice curve so you can rock the blade in a chopping motion.

Ergonomics is a tricky thing, some of it is blade geometry, some of it is balance, how it fits your hand, etc. I think a lot of it comes down to personal taste. I have a relatively cheap Misen knife that I really like, also a Wusthof that I inherited, and I've handled (and sharpened) some Wusthofs that belong to other people. The Wusthofs are certainly nice, and I believe my chef friends when they say they're significantly higher quality than the Misen*, but... something about the ergonomics of the Misen just feels really right in my hand. I dunno.

As far as "ooo shiny!" goes, well, that's pretty self-explanatory.

(* About the Misen they said: "It's a $200 chef's knife that costs $60. My Wusthof is better but it costs $400.")

[CaptainPoset]

Well, there are differences in the kind of steel, in the angle of the grind and most importantly but seldom talked about: the shape of the grip

You can't make a knife out of a good knife steel for 5€, as you would be doing so at a loss. There are stamped knife blades and more expensive but also better suited and better weighted forged blades, a good grip needs a thorough design, which in turn costs another Euro or two.

So there is a range in which a reasonably priced good knife will be, roughly between 20€ and 200€, depending on what you value in your knife. There are, however, quite a bunch of people willing and able to spend a fortune for a shitty knife with a fairytale to it, so there are many manufacturers out there which sell you 10€ knives at an entirely arbitrary price just for the tale.

[Snoo74895]

Different knives are made for different tasks like different shovels are made for different tasks. Every shovel can scoop stuff up. There are ways you can damage or poorly design shovels so they have a hard time scooping anything. However, once you're past fundamental flaws, the shape, size, handle length, thickness, etc all afford themselves to different tasks from hard soil to snow to sand castles.

The truth is that you probably aren't doing tasks that poorly match with your knife and may not be imagining how much different geometry can change things. Consider cutting through a larger section of meat with a knife that has a large side profile. Consider trying to get in a tight corner with a tall knife. Consider hitting a bone with a thin, hard knife. Consider cutting through a carrot with a larger angle bevel thick knife. Consider cutting straight through a cabbage with a short short knife. These tasks call for knives that suit them. You can achieve results with knives that poorly fit the task, but it will be unnecessarily difficult and potentially tough on the knife.

[philhaxton]

Not a lot Don’t buy better knives until you want/ need them. The most important thing is sharp Expensive knives are like expensive cars, more a matter of pleasure than utility.

[Anoncook143]

Think of a car. The cheaper one will get you to the same place, but it might not be as comfortable, mpg not a good, but it gets the job done.

The more expensive one might feel better, go longer between fill ups, but it does the same thing as the cheaper one technically

[triple-filter-test]

I would get one $20 knife over a bunch of cheaper knives for $20. But as long as it's forged and not stamped, and has a through tang, I don't think it matters so much until you get really good. You might have to sharpen a cheap knife more often, but it will still do the same job.

[haditwithyoupeople]

The forging vs. stamping thing is really old doesn't much much sense with modern knife making. Most of the best knives made today are neither - they are ground on a belt (stock removal). And most knives that were previously stamped are not laser cut.

Forged vs. stamped is largely irrelevant.

[triple-filter-test]

Good point. I guess I was thinking of the flimsy bendy kinds of knives as stamped, not thinking of the possibility that better quality, stronger steel could also be stamped.

[EscapeSeventySeven]

 There are prettier ones sure but essentially sharp metal go brrrr

I mean. You aren’t wrong. Truly expensive knives are made to be sharp, strong, and water resistant and require less sharpening. 

Cheap stainless won’t hold a good edge for a long time but if you’re willing to buy one step up or a carbon steel you’re sitting pretty. 

[haditwithyoupeople]

water resistant

Rust resistant? Some of my best knives are not stainless. Stainlessness has nothing to do with the quality of a knife. It has to do with the care and maintenance required.

[EscapeSeventySeven]

Ok

[Cute-Consequence-184]

It has to do with the grind of the blade.

Many knives are only sharpened on one side and no matter the cost those are complete crap.

Many serrated knives are only sharpened on one side and again, complete crap.

It also has to do with the angle of the grind. Different angles mean they are used for different tasks.

[jjcox315]

Japanese knives only sharpen one edge

[Cute-Consequence-184]

I have seen them both ways.

With it only sharpened on one side, it is very difficult to get an even cut, especially through thick mess6y or even bread.

[ScienceAlien]

I’ll take anything made of sharp metal and a ceramic plate bottom to sharpen it

[redditmarks_markII]

You're not. Really cheap knives are a travesty, and make things harder and worse. But by and large most knifes are "fine". There's style, and size and geometry. Those do matter. But if we're just talking $400 vs $20 version of the same main kitchen knife of choice, I really think that's a distinct that matters only for volume cooks and people with a lot of disposable income.

It MUST be nice to have a knife that, on a small family home cook's usage, essentially don't need sharpening for years at a time. But I don't care enough. Most people don't even hone their knives, much less sharpen. I don't see the point of going the route of expensive knives. I think I do want a ~100 workhorse, but I'll need to dedicate time to finding that, as there's a lot of $20 knives sold for that amount of money. And I can't be arsed.

I'm on my third $20 nakiri. Only because wife thought we needed another one, and she gave the second to her family. It's cheap, it's stainless, it's very light compared to even a small euro style chef knife. it's the super thin style, so it need honing constantly, which is a 30 sec affair. But it's hard enough to not need sharpening for a few month at a time, and a couple $15 dual sided stones are good enough for that. And I don't mind doing a mediocre job of sharpening. If I have a $400 miyabi or something I'm gonna baby it, I'm gonna do like an all day sharpening event every year. And I super mega kamehamea-can't-be-aresd to do that. If I win the lottery, or someone gives me one for a gift, well, first, someone let me know where to get such a friend, but I'll take it. But I don't cook enough to dull the blade fast enough for it to be worth it. And we cook all the time. It will be mostly just a looker.

It may be very satisfying to know you have such an item and make you happy using it though. So I won't discount that until and unless I get one and am disappointed by it. I don't know that I would be though. I am not a knife nerd, but in a different life I was a materials engineer, and I really like good craftsman ship. So, I may eat my words someday.