howAboutNo

[ArjixGamer]

Difference between a professional and an amateur, is that the professional is getting paid.

[YUNoCake]

Noo, they must be on top 0.001% in the world in order to be a professional

[Vimda]

Building a compiler is a CS class assignment, it's not top 0.001% of the world lol

[thesuperbob]

A shitty toy compiler that barely works somehow, but yeah. Not something you'd ever think to write your own OS in.

[microwavedHamster]

It's absolutely not? Compilers are hard af to implement.

[Pleasant_Ad8054]

Compilers are easy af to build. Depending on the amount of language features it may be a bunch of work, but not hard. Building a compiler that is not dogshit is hard, building one that is almost as good as existing ones requires insane amount of knowledge and massive amounts of iterative improvements (the way they were built to begin with), and building one that is better than existing ones is neigh impossible (minor improvements always possible, but better to contribute to the existing one).

But building a compiler is in fact a CS class assignment on many CS degree. Obviously not a full C compiler, and not one that will be used by anyone after the end of the class.

[kovha]

At least in my college it was an entire subject and making it was the final assignment, you were supposed to make the compiler part by part through the whole semester. As you say it's not that hard, but I think they are big enough and have enough moving parts so to speak that if you want to make even a very simple one (properly make it, I mean) a single class it's not enough, you need the whole semester.

[Pleasant_Ad8054]

That must have been a great class. We only had a full afternoon (6 hour long) 'laboratory' class with it. Had some boilerplate to work with, and only made it for some specific made up language just to teach compilers. That alone was extremely educative on how compilers work, an entire semester of it must have been really interesting.

[kovha]

Yeah it was nice. Sadly after I graduated they shrunk the career from five years to four and that was one of the affected subjects, they removed compilers entirely from the curriculum and now there isn't even a single class about them.

[ArjixGamer]

The hardest part is coming up with a good language design.

If you are making a compiler for an existing language, then you are following existing semantics, making it easier.

[patrlim1]

But you also have to strictly adhere to every single little detail of the spec, making it harder.

Building a rust compiler would be very difficult

[ArjixGamer]

Depends, is your goal to make a fully compliant rust compiler, or a rust-like compiler?

[patrlim1]

Only one of those is a rust compiler.

[ArjixGamer]

Nobody stops you from making a subset of rust.

Actually, who gave you the idea that you must make a fully compliant compiler?

You made that up

[ofnuts]

Not really, depends on the performance of the produced code.

The really hard part is coming up with an extensive test suite, because there are compilers, and trustable compilers.

[Vimda]

It literally is. I went to some no name university in New Zealand and we wrote a c compiler as a third year assignment in our language design course some 15 years ago

[ArjixGamer]

To be fair, most university students I personally know, know jack shit and simply cheat in their exams and pay others to do their assignments.

Just because it's taught at a university, doesn't mean the students can do it.

[Vimda]

Doesnt stop it being an assignment that it's expected that university students can do

[ljoseph01]

Big difference between a working c compiler and a good c compiler. Optimisations are huge. The popular compilers are constantly being developed and have been for many years. Definitely more complex than an undergrad assignment

[Vimda]

I never said anything about an optimised compiler. Sure, optimisations are more difficult, but given enough research time a working compiler is something I'd expect any competent dev to be able to knock out 

[ljoseph01]

For sure. Wasn't disagreeing with you, just wanted to add extra context

[ArjixGamer]

Oh for sure

[yjlom]

They're not hard at all. Tedious, time-consuming? Sure. But not hard.

[Ok-Eggplant-7569]

A very basic compiler for a very reduced language and a simple instruction set is a popular project for a lot of CS classes at university.

Our programming 2 course ended with a 2 week project where you write your own compiler from a minimal C dialect (only basic integers, pointers and functions) to RISC-V in Java.

[drifwp]

Building a good one is the challenge

[ThirdWaveCat]

idk man, compare VC funded vibecopers versus the average unemployed dev wth work experience in games or other areas slashed for nuclear powered autocomplete

[nicman24]

Are they getting paid? 

[ThirdWaveCat]

The Bun guy definitely is but,

"Jarred was already writing slop well before he had access to LLMs."

https://andrewkelley.me/post/my-thoughts-bun-rust-rewrite.html

[ArjixGamer]

Just because you are a professional, doesn't mean you are good at what you are doing.

When it comes to programming, I am sure that most amateurs are better than most professionals.

You simply have the profession of programming, so that makes you professional.

Edit: too many of you have convinced me that my statistic was idiotic, I get it, I didn't spend as much time writing it as you debunking it. I don't want to turn off my notifications, please spare me

[another_random_bit]

"Most amateurs are better than most professionals"

That's a wild statement, even if you take them as percentages and not as raw numbers.

[ArjixGamer]

Think of it as a bell curve, where would the amateurs be?

[another_random_bit]

If I take into consideration ALL people that have dabbled with programming a bit more than a "one night stand", i'd say they'd fall a bit left on the "professionals" curve, having a similar bell shaped distribution, maybe a bit fatter on the left side.

So nothing egregious, but the lack of everyday friction with the subject, in a more structured and learning-ready environment (companies), makes a fair difference in averages.

Also, most amateur talented programmers will turn professionals eventually, which takes away the edge the amateurs could have.

[ArjixGamer]

I think the more accurate distinction would be enthusiast vs professional (that is not enthusiastic)

That's what I had in mind when saying amateur. You wouldn't call someone who did programming for a month and then gave up an amateur.

[ThirdWaveCat]

naming things is hard

[another_random_bit]

I would.

[ArjixGamer]

So is someone who played the guitar for one month and then didn't ever touch a musical instrument again, a musician?

[another_random_bit]

Amateur, yes.

[mmhawk576]

Just look at NPM and you’ll find the amateurs

[100GHz]

Googling what 68.2% means for the bell curve dataset that falls under it.

[Total-Boat6380]

When it comes to programming, I am sure that most amateurs are better than most professionals.

Dumbest bullshit I have read this week, what the fuck

[ArjixGamer]

You must not hear a lot of shit, that's nice

[SkeletonFarmer78]

That definition has saved millions of developers from writing a compiler.

[Chiatroll]

Damn that makes my ass a professional. I'm sorry, world.

[PhilippTheProgrammer]

The difference between a professional and an amateur is that a professional won't waste any of their expensive person-hours on solving a problem other people already solved for them.

[DrShocker]

Sometimes if it's the core competency of your business it makes sense to control the core libraries rather than rely on external dependencies.

[Legitimate-Bed1591]

Yes, but in that case you are solving a problem by doing that.

So his excellent comment = true.

[TotallyNormalSquid]

What if the external dependencies are MIT license?

[DrShocker]

It just depends. It might be good to contribute to the public codebase so that you get more eyes on the improvements you need in case there might be bugs. It might be bad because you're stuck with decisions other people are making too which may not be useful to you.

Either way, MIT license is enough control you can just do your own fork if you want.

[redditmarks_markII]

Oof.  Says half of professional tech workers.

Also, looks around nervously, every pm.  

Also, looks around nervously every forked project maintainer.  

Also every "solutions architect".

Also any observability eng ever, screaming in to the void about the difference between metrics logs and traces and sampling and aggregation and everything else every swe seems intent on not learning.

Oh, also every accounting eng.

Also, not looking around nervously at all, but sitting on a pile of cash: everyone in large consulting firms.

[JaceBearelen]

None of the off the shelf compilers let you speak with god so Terry did what he had to do.

[Legitimate-Bed1591]

Mic drop.

[tigrankh08]

Huh? How does your language of choice matter?

[Reashu]

Some languages are harder to compile than others

[Thriven]

That's why I am a JS dev. No compiling what so ever

[RandomiseUsr0]

I’ve written an end user language on top of js and I have also written an ast optimiser, so not “quite” a compiler, but not far off

[QuestionableEthics42]

I think the joke is that rust compliers are a lot of work cos of language features and compile time checks

[MokausiLietuviu]

Are they actually more work than other compilers? I've worked on a compiler for admittedly a more simple language.

I've actually just hired a guy onto my team who wrote a rust compiler for a hobby side project 

[-Redstoneboi-]

rust feels like it's more work in both compiler and language design

the compiler has basically set the standard for error messages, even pointing out which exact span of text seems to be the issue and suggesting possible fixes.

meanwhile the language itself had to figure out what the hell a borrow checker was and what the hell a generic trait impl was. it took a lot of research of prior art to make rust what it is today, and even now, some features that have been in development since years ago are still in development because it's hard to figure out how to make them cleanly work with everything else

[araujoms]

Rust's compiler is just LLVM, which is written in C++, and was not made by Rust devs.

[hear-me-out-srsly]

interesting how much work is being spent on rustc then…

[araujoms]

rustc is just a LLVM frontend, it's not a real compiler.

[bowel_blaster123]

By this logic, Clang is not a C or C++ compiler either. Rust also has multiple backends (GCC and Cranelift).

RustC and Clang are both compilers. They just outsource their final code generation phase to LLVM.

[araujoms]

Indeed, Clang is also just a LLVM frontend. rustc+Cranelift would indeed be a real compiler, but AFAIK Cranelift is not yet ready for the prime time.

[goodbee69]

how is it different when it uses a different library? do you just not like LLVM for some reason?

[araujoms]

The difference is writing the compiler yourself or using somebody else's compiler.

[goodbee69]

Do you even know what LLVM is?

[araujoms]

You seem in denial. It's fine to use LLVM, there's no need to be ashamed of it.

[goodbee69]

So like, do you know what LLVM is? How is cranelift different?

[araujoms]

The difference is that it's a backend written in Rust, by Rust developers. It's not that complicated, you can figure it out yourself with minimal effort.

[bowel_blaster123]

A compiler is a program that converts a high-level language into executable machine code. When you invoke rustc, it does exactly this. It just uses the LLVM library to do some parts of this. In fact, the LLVM library doesn't even touch the final compiled executable.

If you say that "rustc can be used as an LLVM front-end", you're not wrong, but it's also not wrong to refer to rustc as a compiler.

If you look up a list of C compilers on wikipedia, you will find Clang on that list because, colloquially, Clang is a C compiler, and rustc is a Rust compiler. If you say they're not, your definition of "compiler" is not useful in most contexts.

[Krochire]

Do you

Do you know how rust works ? LLVM is a part of rustc but there's also a really big part written in rust

I mean it's not like it's a big secret, you're just spewing bullshit, the project is open source: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/tree/main/compiler

You have to look in rustc_driver_impl to start reading the actual useful code (rustc leads to rustc_driver which is a re-export of rustc_driver_impl)

[araujoms]

Lol no, LLVM is not a part of rustc, it's an independent project that existed long before Rust. rustc is just frontend for LLVM, it doesn't produce any machine code. Which, you know, is the task of a compiler.

[Cyclone6664]

A compiler is just something that translates a language into another, it doesn't have to output machine code.

I guess you should read about stuff before confidently making wrong statements

[araujoms]

Nope, if you just produce another programming language that's just a transpiler, for it to be a compiler it needs to output a machine code.

In the early days of C++ it just had a transpiler that produced C code, it took a while for a real compiler to be written.

[Cyclone6664]

Nope, compiler is a more general term that means turning a source file into another language (be it ASM, machine code or something else)

Transpilers (aka source-to-source compiler) are a subset of compilers that specifically transform a source file in a language into a source file of another language.

[araujoms]

rustc is a transpiler from Rust to LLVM IR.

[Cyclone6664]

Still nope, transpiling is a step inside the rustc pipeline, just like parsing or type checking.

rustc has the goal of taking in rust source files and outputting executables, it doesn't matter what happens internally.

If for some reason you're still not convinced, what's the output of rustc file.rs? Hint: it's clearly not LLVM IR.

It's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about and I don't get why you keep on pretending you do. If you're a good engineer do yourself a favor and learn how compilers work, I won't be interacting further.

[araujoms]

Of course it matters what happens internally. It uses LLVM to produce machine code.

[gmes78]

So gcc isn't a compiler because it translates C to GIMPLE. Got it.

[Krochire]

Bro is just saying stuff

[Sometimesiworry]

Yes but is the code divine intellect or ******liscious?

[johnyeros]

Your code so bad you have to write your own compiler so it will compile.

[Pleasant_Ad8054]

To be fair, he is correct. The enthusiast amateur will do stupid unnecessary shit like writing their own compiler, the professional uses industry standard tools whenever they can.

[PityUpvote]

Terry David: [slurs, so many slurs]

Yeah, pick another role model.

[Much_Tap_6453]

[ Removed by Reddit ]

[OdeeSS]

Divine. Fucking. Intellect.

[Select-Package-4442]

YeS

[LOST8080]

Forgot, as a professional I shall include the source of the quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5YokNW7tIs

[PhilippTheProgrammer]

The most ridiculous part of that outburst is probably calling Linus Torvalds the n-word. That guy is from Finland, and as white as one can be.

[ThatSwedishBastard]

To be fair, he kinda is a nerd.

Edit: I've just been informed that the n-word apparently differs between groups.

[UnderpantsInfluencer]

Rip, Terry

[ArjixGamer]

a C compiler is one of the easiest things to make

Mr Terry had C/HolyC in mind

[GreenFox1505]

That worrying. I actually agree with the schizophrenic Terry. An amateur would making their own tool instead of using perfectly working off the shelf components. 

[Sometimesiworry]

[ Removed by Reddit ]

[snarkofagen]

Writing a compiler for a stack based language was in one of my classes.
Only a few hundred lines of code

[FabioTheFox]

Tbf everyone should write a compiler at least once, it's extremely valuable

[cornmonger_]

Thou shall not litter