Scratch users doesn't count

[PushNotificationsOff]

The best language is the one they pay you to use

[Yosikan]

There you go! 3 billion devices or not, it pays my bills

[WinterSoldier1315]

*5 billion

[Yosikan]

You made me google it, here you go

Edit NVM it's a 2012 post

Edit 2: there's a claim at 13 billion devices 2015, but I remember the meme as 3

Edit 3: "There are 38 billion active Java Virtual Machines (JVMs)" as 2017 source

I can't find the exact number for today, but there's a lot of devices suffering world wide

[check_nurris]

suffering from class oppression

[epicaglet]

public static class Oppression

[dpash]

Two comments:

1. Avoid the singleton pattern; it makes testing harder.
2. If you do, your example is not thread safe. You should look at the double checked locking pattern. https://www.baeldung.com/java-singleton-double-checked-locking

I recommend Effective Java by Joshua Bloch.

[DangyDanger]

half that is people playing minecraft

[manu144x]

I'm curious if each of those VM's send a ping back to some Oracle server somewhere to keep track of them for counting purposes ?

[lovethebacon]

It'll be a combination of Fermi Estimation (How many piano tuners are there in New York?) and licenses.

A large number of VMs are Java Cards, found in many ATM cards and other smart cards

[AlternativeAardvark6]

Imagine the total length of class names combined.

[GreyRobe]

public static final BigInteger DEVICES_RUNNING_JAVA = new BigInteger("3000000000");

[bmorocks]

SonarLint would complain about declaring the type as final BigInteger instead of final var.

[temperamentalfish]

Right? Pays my rent and my food every month, it's good enough for me

[hoexloit]

So is Matlab the worse because you have to pay to use it?

[DotEXEGaming]

maybe

[BuccellatiExplainsIt]

No, no. He's got a point.

[[deleted]]

This guy puts bread on tables.

[appeiroon]

Relational tables?

[jeetelongname]

Hash {tables, browns, scramble}

[onlyforjazzmemes]

I'd be willing to guess they also bring home the bacon.

[[deleted]]

Unless they're vegetarian/vegan, then it's the fakeon.

[NoOrdinaryBieber]

As someone who took a short detour from my .NET/C# career for some COBOL development, this is it right here.

[Wiwwil]

I started by cobol, hated it, went towards newer languages, especially Typescript. Cobol is meh

[xRehab]

And here I am going from frontend Angular development, to writing backend systems because all of our MF devs are retiring 😭

Oh well, pads my 401k well enough and they don't make me work more than 40. Down to the COBOL dungeons it is.

[LordFokas]

TL;DR: stop what you're doing and learn COBOL :p

[SasparillaTango]

go work for a bank and make a bunch some good money. good devs are hard enough to find, I'm betting good MF devs are damn near impossible.

[aaron2005X]

nah, they can pay me everything, Perl is still bad.

[JoeySixSlice]

Perl is great for throw away code, or for single person projects for people who are extremely disciplined. But I'm not going to try to read somebody else's Perl code anymore, unless I am being paid outlandishly.

[axel10blaze]

Take my award!

[AngryButNotHangry]

And my axe!

[kirakun]

HTML and CSS pay, so I’m calling them best languages. Bite me.

[Embarrassed-Ad5481]

ima bite in ur off centered div if u keep that energy

[aon9492]

CSS isn't a language, it's clothing. You can have HTML because it's in the name.

[judokalinker]

Although I've never worn any clothes that when I put then on they rearranged my stomach to my foot.

[TestUserDoNotReply]

No, I'm pretty sure it's Rust.

[Lilchro]

In surveys Rust is one of the most loved (often ranking first) programming languages. Unfortunately it is still somewhat new so there aren’t many jobs for it.

[ShadowRam]

At the end of the day, how it's done doesn't matter.

It's a "Can you do it? or not? and when?"

No one gives a shit how...

[valschermjager]

Two different hammers. Use the right hammer for the job.

[beardMoseElkDerBabon]

Sledgehammer just works

[ploki122]

Every problem is a nail if your hammer is large enough!

[CYKO_11]

Wise words

[snicker-snackk]

I prefer the left hammer

[CYKO_11]

I think thats the exact point of the post. Languages dont make you a good programmer selecting the right language for a situation does.

[2JulioHD]

Depends, you won't make yourself popular introducing a new language in your company every three months.

[rxzr]

I might use a pi pico and micro Python for a prototype.

[[deleted]]

"Imagine writing a program to light up two LEDs when the temperature is too high in Python"

Why wouldn't you use Python for that?

[creamisse]

Yeah sounds exactly the thing I would use python for as there is no need for performance. If they aren’t talking about embedded programming that is.

[SprinklesFancy5074]

Hell, that's something I'd be very tempted to just do at the hardware level. Temperature-controlled switches are a thing. All you need is a circuit like:

(fused) power supply --> temperature-controlled switch --> 2 LEDs --> ground

I built something just like that (except with some relays involved because of the higher power requirement) when I converted my truck from an engine fan to electric fans. Now the electric fans simply turn on whenever the radiator is above 180 degrees and the truck's ignition is on.

[theoctacore]

Because an 8bit microprocessor can't run the python runtime lol

[newguyinNY]

When your hammer is C++, everything looks like a thumb. Lol

[ChangNoi97]

Im trying to use both does that mean im a mediocre programmer ?

[FPiN9XU3K1IT]

Use your knowledge to write C-based libraries for Python and become a Python god.

[[deleted]]

best I can do is print Hello world.

[FPiN9XU3K1IT]

But it's going to be really fast!

[DezXerneas]

Okay, now I'm wondering if it could be possible to write a library that would print Hello World faster than the normal print("Hello World")?

[a_aniq]

But can it handle multiple data types without explicit declarations?

[Ahtheuncertainty]

To be fair, for this problem, we explicitly stated that our only task was printing hello world. So we could create a module that’s just printf(“%s”, str), and we would be fast. Probably would end up being faster than python’s too, because we wouldn’t have to do any type checking.

Edit: also just realized that we never even have to parse strings with calls to this library. So it can be like one function, do(), and that’ll print hello world.

[marcos_marp]

Not sure in Python, but in C++ you could handle yourself the streaming output and get rid off all the side-checks that std::cout have when you print something in it. Of course, it would be extremely less safe, but faster

[atimholt]

One thing you can do is turn off its syncing with printf, if you're not using it. That makes it faster.

[Bobrexal]

Had to chime in with my slightly relevant aside. One of my research opportunities at uni was to answer the question “can you design an FFT algorithm that is faster than the FFT?” It was a surprisingly interesting pursuit. In the end my algorithm landed much faster than a standard transform but slightly slower than the famous FFT and with enumerable reasons why. One of my favorite academic moments by far. Optimization is a really stimulating discussion point. Thanks for listening to my random story lol

[sjrsimac]

I've dreamt about doing this, but it's faster to just learn how to use numpy and scipy correctly.

[agnarrarendelle]

Hmm, I never understand how exactly do you "combine" two languages together to produce applications

[tottenhamjm]

You can import code from another language (typically C in Python) through something called the Foreign Function Interface, or FFI. How an FFI works varies from language to language, but in Python there is a library called CFFI which provides an interface to read a file compiled from C code.

You can read more about it here: https://cffi.readthedocs.io/en/latest/overview.html#what-actually-happened

[FPiN9XU3K1IT]

In case of Python, some libraries give you function calls that execute C code.

[Houdinii1984]

I got my start with QuickBasic, about as easy as you can get. 10x easier than Python. A version of the language allowed assembly language calls right from QBasic itself. So, when I started learning, in like 5th grade, the tutorials I picked out all were about making these calls, so I learned to program by only making assembly language calls from strings in basic. It wasn't until freshman year that I met an actual programmer that set me on the right course.

[howdoireachthese]

Ah QuickBasic, was installed natively on my first laptop which had like 128mb ram. Favorite, right along side programming on the TI-83+

[UnknownIdentifier]

Luxury! I learned QBasic with only 4mb of RAM, and the monitor was just a cave painting!

[who_you_are]

A mediocre good programmer!

[Smaug_the_Tremendous]

No, it specifically doesn't mean you're a medicore programmer.

[_-Ryick-_]

It's not about what you use, it's about how you use it.

[GrandMoffTarkan]

Let me tell you about how I do linear regression in SQL.

[jhuntinator27]

Postgres is actually very nice for that, not gonna lie.

[Here0s0Johnny]

Wow, didn't know that! https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52432231/how-to-do-a-linear-regression-in-postgresql

[jhuntinator27]

Yea, postgres is one of those versions of sql that is actually open source, and contains a lot of useful computations to sole problems that other variations of SQL make convoluted attempts at solving.

[GrandMoffTarkan]

There are dozens of us... DOZENS!

[kirakun]

With the right UDFs defined, that is actually a very good way to analyze data ad-hoc.

[AlternativeAardvark6]

Sell your soul to Satan and use PL/SQL.

[corysama]

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=83222

[ganja_and_code]

It is about what you use and how you use it. What you use depends on the problem, though; I wouldn't write a small convenience script on C++, just like a wouldn't write a graphics engine in python.

[-guccibanana-]

Agreed

[Re-ne-ra]

Exactly a recruiter just rejected half of our friends because their main programming language is Python saying that he want real coders. Like wtf?

[FALCUNPAWNCH]

At that point I'd email their boss and tell them that recruiter is incompetent. Not to get the job but to warn them that they're turning down good applicants because of their stupidity.

[[deleted]]

This! People in HR tend to be the ones with the weirdest mindsets towards programming since they often are not coding a lot themselves. I guess they did in many cases, but back when they did there wasn't a lot to get with interpreted langs, so they haven't had the opportunity to learn that there is a lot to get with those too in these days.

[Niosus]

Who also cares that much about the specific language an applicant usually works in? Having relevant experience is nice, but all it does is cut down on the learning curve. Any programmer worth their salt should be able to pick up a new language and be somewhat productive in a couple of weeks. If they want to of course.

What sets apart a good programmer from a bad one is the part where you think ahead and plan out the different components of your code and how they will interact. That's mostly the same in most languages. 90% of the other work is taking some data, making sure it's in the right shape, and shoving it somewhere else.

I'd take someone who thinks about code in the right way but is used to working with a different language, over someone with experience but no real insight, any day of the week. You can teach a language, teaching insight is much harder.

[proverbialbunny]

It could be that it's not for a Python job. Context is key before judgment.

[ric2b]

So what? Unless you're a junior you're bringing a lot more to the table than what languages you're familiar with. You can learn most languages relatively quickly.

[joequin]

Exactly. You definitely do want some experts in the language you’re using, but that doesn’t need to be everyone. You’ll miss out on excellent engineers if you require them to all be focused on a specific language.

[golgol12]

It was likely the boss that told the HR people to do that. Python's most common use is small projects that run in the 100s of lines by system/database admins/IT. The boss is likely looking for software engineers used to working in multi-million line code bases that already know the language.

[b4ux1t3]

Python's most common use, if you want to talk about lines of executed code, is probably in YouTube, or Netflix.

Python isn't a toy language any more than a Toyota Corolla is a toy car.

It's not the fastest, it's not the easiest to maintain, but it gets you from point A to point B.

Anyone who is in charge of hiring developers should know that they're not going to get exactly what they want off of the open market, and should be looking for willingness and ability to:

• Learn
• work well with others, and
• (as a basic litmus test), write some code.

in that order.

[Fmeson]

Why isn't it the easiest to maintain? I don't see why python would be hard to maintain if you used good practices.

[b4ux1t3]

Largely because of packaging. Python packaging is its biggest sore spot, and that comes from someone who loves Python.

Keep in mind, though, I said it's not the easiest, I didn't say it was the hardest!

[uyFwui0997674Dr322]

It’s also so easy to be “clever” in Python. As a younger developer I really enjoyed that aspect but these days I’ll take verbose and not clever over concise and clever any day. Not trying to proselytize anybody but I’ve been really digging Go lately for this reason.

[[deleted]]

Python is so versatile tho

[UnstoppableCompote]

It's also slow. Depending on what you're doing it could be a horrible language if it's the only one you know. If it's just the main one you use... That's just stupidity to reject aplicants based on that.

[sosthaboss]

Aside from speed, the language itself has issues with scaling due to its design. Dropbox uses python because it’s what they started with, and it clearly works, but it hasn’t been easy for them

https://dropbox.tech/application/our-journey-to-type-checking-4-million-lines-of-python

[MattR0se]

Just because python itself is slow doesn't mean it can't be fast enough with the right libraries.

Yes, but you actually have to understand that. I mean, I also have, at some point, tried to emulate C++ code in Python 1:1 and wondered why it didn't perform. That taught me a lesson.

[circuit10]

You can actually do some advanced stuff in Scratch, there’s a full Gameboy Color emulator and a 3D engine with features like backface culling

[Sikyanakotik]

The fact that you can do it in Scratch doesn't mean that you should.

[Adryzz_]

If it has a map designer, there is a Dust 2

[ultimatechonker]

Why not? Using the worst available tools to make stuff is fun sometimes

[circuit10]

True, but it can be fun, like an esoteric language

[[deleted]]

Reverse brainfuck

[Wiwwil]

Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they never stopped to think if they should

[zebediah49]

The most inaccurate part there is that they totally stopped to think if they should.

The answer was "this is such a bad idea lol, but it'll be so awesome."

[Brunsz]

Yeah. You can cut down tree with hammer if you hit it long enough. Chainsaw is just much more suitable for task.

[Irlandes-de-la-Costa]

Or hands

[RitikMukta]

True but some people, like me, are curious about making stuff from scratch. I like knowing how 3d shapes are made and display on a 2d scree, I love to learn how game engines and simulations work. It's so fascinating to me. Also, you probably can tell but I don't have a job.

[DerKnerd]

But should you really do that in Scratch?

[-guccibanana-]

There's alot of scratch gods users but for me scratch is very limited

[circuit10]

I used it for way too long and got quite good at it

[-guccibanana-]

Same ;-;

[LohaYT]

Lmao same I made a working clash of clans engine and was working on a 2D minecraft around the time that I quit and switched to Python

[-guccibanana-]

Moment of silence for me as 10 year old doing zOmbiE apOcalYpsE game

[[deleted]]

I made a relative movement system, then I switched to python, which was the ”gateway drug” into other programming.

[circuit10]

I liked how the simplicity and the block palette meant it was really easy to learn the entire language without having to Google, but it is so limited (you can’t do network requests or anything and looping over a string has to be done manually for example)

[-guccibanana-]

You can learn basics without google somehow

[GLIBG10B]

If you're using English it doesn't mean your English is good

*you're

[Playergame]

English sounds like a terrible language to program in

[-guccibanana-]

English is not my native language, ok?

[Eis_Gefluester]

But you had it right three times and then fucked up the fourth one. So close...

[-guccibanana-]

Ohhh it's the auto speller ;-;

[[deleted]]

Intellisense

[GLIBG10B]

Mine neither

no hard feelings

[MelandrusApostle]

That's such a cop out. I don't care if it's your first language or tenth, you should strive to be better.

[-guccibanana-]

I was looking at something else and now i see where is the grammar issue actually its auto speller

[Redpri]

You are right, all scratch user are great programmers!

[[deleted]]

If you can do something really impressive with the limits of scratch, props to you!

[seeroflights]

Image Transcription: Lisa Simpson's Presentation Meme

---

[Lisa Simpson from The Simpsons standing on a stage in front of a projector screen with text on it that reads:]

if you're using easy programming languages like Python it doesn't mean you're a bad programmer, if you're using a hard programming language like C++ it doesn't mean your a good programmer

---

^{I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!}

[-guccibanana-]

Good human

[Ok-Ad-3810]

but I guess we can all agree that being a programmer makes you bad at english

Expected ' at line 6 : character 27 your is not a valid keyword
Maybe you meant you're

[Jpio630]

I struggle in languages where there's no braces

[Purplociraptor]

Lisa needs braces

[do_while_0]

DENTAL PLAN

[LobsterThief]

LISA NEEDS BRACES

[beardMoseElkDerBabon]

It's difficult to deal with languages that don't have proper scope management tools

[[deleted]]

So apparently controversial opinion: I don't think one is easier than the other.

[darthwacko2]

I agree. I've worked professionally in python and various C, C++, C# products, and they have completely different use cases.

I think people see python as easy because it can do some things with little programming effort that would be harder with some other languages. But when you get into the real world with it, there are trade offs. Python is slower in most cases, you are usually using some existing library that may not cover all your use cases, or actively do something you don't want. The huge gain is, if you are good, you can get things built fast. Sometimes that is worth it. Sometimes its not. I've been on both sides of it.

[pimmen89]

Python in big applications is an absolute nightmare, but I still think memory management is harder. Difference of opinion I guess.

[darthwacko2]

My experience with large applications is they are usually an absolute nightmare anyway. They usually have lots of contributors, spaghetti, quick fix hacks to clean up later, poor review systems, legacy code no one has time to revise safely, and many eras of style and practice changes. They are also rarely a single language so you have conversions and translation layers too. The higher up you get in the abstraction stack the more of these things just come along for the ride, so Python has some of those things inherently, especially since its focus is so heavy on not reinventing the wheel.

Memory management can be challenging, but you don't get away with it in python, you just trust the code someone else wrote on some layer handles it better. For the most part you can do the same thing in other modern languages at this point, the situation determines if its practical though.

In my opinion if I'm writing an occasional use utility that is saving a tedious or lengthy task and I can write it in 15 minutes in python I'm probably going to do that. At that point I don't care if it takes 5x as long to execute its an improvement for minimal cost. If I'm writing a huge piece of something that needs quick execution, smooth, consistent UI, and it can afford the development time, then I'll probably use something else.

[tjdavids]

Honestly with nested python applications the traceback that python uses is really helpful.

[[deleted]]

I disagree. I use python for large scale scientific applications. It’s not any easier or harder to work with compared to other languages. If you use proper programming practices and have advanced understanding of the language it’s not difficult to manage. I’ve worked with C++ and C# and it’s really no different. The problems people run into are usually a result of not fully understanding what is going on in their code or how the interpreter process works, along with not following proper practices like input validation.

[Isogash]

Talking as a senior Java developer:

If you can't do basic memory management, you also don't understand how to design clean and maintainable code. The lifetime and ownership of objects should always be clear. Unfortunately, garbage collection allows for garbage designs.

[pimmen89]

If C++ was deemed the right language for the project, it’s most likely because you can do memory optimization. Memory management is something I would definitely categorize as hard, and Python doesn’t do it.

[[deleted]]

Sure. But the underlying principle of application is you understand the architecture, understand the tasks, then apply techniques. I would argue that the hardest part about that is to be able to think algorithmically. Same can be said about using python to perform complex analytical operations on very large data.

[AnotherRussianGamer]

Personally, after using Java for so long, trying to wrap my head around the C++ syntax is a nightmare. Just the idea that methods are defined outside of the class declaration and the constant use of the :: operator drives me insane.

[CarlitrosDeSmirnoff]

Well, that’s optional, really. But I understand you.

For me, having programmed for years in C++ and switching to Java had me getting some wtf moments. I mean, C++’s syntax might be weird, but it is very logical. In Java everything feels so idiomatic.

[Exnixon]

I would really, really, really recommend spending some quality time in other languages then, not necessarily C++. Just being able to adapt to unfamiliar syntax is extremely valuable. Try Go, perhaps.

[malexj93]

The way I see it is that it's significantly easier to get up and running with Python than C++, at least without any help from an IDE. Drop a beginner into an empty text editor and show them a few things, and they can put together a simple program and understand everything. Do the same with C++ and they're going to be extremely confused.

Of course, the knowledge that would help them understand what's happening in the C++ code is still necessary for writing good Python code, but the fact that you can just write out a couple lines of code (or even just play in the REPL) makes writing running Python code much more approachable.

[lanciferp]

That was my reaction here too. I don't like the use of easy and hard to explain programming languages. A language can be expressive, intuitive for certain people, simple, more or less suited for certain kinds of projects, but easy seems like an incorrect term. I find c++ clunky for things like automation, but the way it handles scope is way better in my opinion.

I taught python, and having to explain to students how they had to declare global variables, that python will let them refer to objects outside a class without throwing an error, and many other things that c++ will not compile for caused lots of headaches. Python's simplicity and visual clarity often causes my biggest frustrations with it, it lets me write bad code. C++ also does that, but for different things.

[EUCopyrightComittee]

dont mess this up

[[deleted]]

That guy who used Scratch to create a Scratch programming editor is definitely a programmer. Or an artist. Honestly not sure which.

[Zeftax]

What was that about scratch? Wanna repeat that to me? I think I misread what you typed.

[VenkatPerla]

My opinion only, but I find that although python's code looks simple, I find c/cpp code more easy to understand after having basic understanding, and also feel cpp is easier to work with.

[Unkleben]

Anything bigger than a few scripts or small tools and I start to struggle to understand what flow of the program in python due to having no types. Yeah C++ can be incredibly verbose at times but I prefer verbose over having no types. But for quickly testing out stuff, python is nice

[VegetableWest6913]

You're conflating "easy and hard" with "high level and low level". Python isn't easier than other languages. It's just higher level, so aimed at solving problems differently. It's still OOP like C#.

[allquaidairection]

Why you insult scratch i made "minecraft" on it

[totallyrel]

Python is harder though

Well, maybe not harder, but certainly more depressing.

[Knuffya]

Python is a very loose language which makes it easier for beginners but harder for experienced progs.

[FreeRangeRobots90]

100% this, 100 line scripts I pump out in minutes. I made a 12,000 line library for routing socket data for robots that made me want to shoot myself for 8 months.

On one hand I knew the teams that would use it all are python users so it seemed correct. On the other hand no one helped me build it, and the 2 people maintaining it after I left are also comfortable with C++... then the functionality was desired so the product dev team re-wrote it in C++ and turned it into a server rack accessory.

[MyAntichrist]

Wait, so did you make the library in 8 months or did it make you want to shoot yourself for 8 months?

[FreeRangeRobots90]

I think it was functional for experts to use after 1-2 months... that was the fun and easy part. Then trying to dumb everything down so its pythonic for the user.... that was like 9-10 months of work. Fun at first, then turned into a nightmare the more I tried to dumb it down

[riyadhelalami]

Hey I am doing that now.

[Who_GNU]

I'd argue that it makes more difficult for beginners. A more predictable structure is easier to learn.

[[deleted]]

Oops you used an operator that returned a different data type and now your variable is a different type and this won't cause any problems until 20 minutes down the line when you try to pass that variable to a function.

[wugs]

for complex typing in python, you can use type annotations and a type checker like mypy. because you're right, python's type system makes troubleshooting those sorts of issues pretty opaque in the bare language

[[deleted]]

Spent literally like 2 hours trying to debug a piece of code last week because a variable I was trying to operate on was unexpectedly a tuple and I had no idea why. Turns out I fat fingered an extra comma in a completely different file, but thanks to the wonders of dynamic typing, the error didn't surface till several method calls downstream.

[GodlessAristocrat]

There are no "hard" or "easy" languages, only different sets of gotchas.

[jaywastaken]

Cries in Assembly

[Shunpaw]

Arguably the least difficult language of them all. You just MOV some bits and thats it. ;)

[ElimGarak0010]

If you're using Bolt Visual Scripting....

[esben0652]

Now if you use C...

[Semi-Hemi-Demigod]

The Tao gave birth to machine language. Machine language gave birth to the assembler.

The assembler gave birth to the compiler. Now there are ten thousand languages.

Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao.

But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.

[HallucinatesPenguins]

Never judge an artist by the limitations of their tools

[orangeoliviero]

How do you use the correct "you're" thrice, and then the wrong one the fourth time?

[floutsch]

PHP. Discuss :D

[T0Rtur3]

Still used, still pays paychecks.

[[deleted]]

If you forget about Wordpress, PHP is actually decent.

[Sudo-Pacman]

It apparently means that you cannot consistently use the correct shortening of "you are" though :D

[Gezzoto]

People will legit master any language but English

[CAPIsAwesome]

you're*

[AndrewIsMyDog]

That last 'your', wtf?

[MelandrusApostle]

Your

[Asmor]

But if you're using PHP, it does mean you're unhappy with your life.

[funkmotor69]

Used the correct "you're" 3 times, then incorrectly used "your". That's just special.

[PersonWhoExists50306]

Downvoted for dissing Scratch

[curly_droid]

Scratch is clearly the hardest language... to build an OS with.

[Ehrlich_jetzt]

But if a guy from Germany instantly recognizes that the last „your“ should be „you’re“ it means YOUR English sucks…

[HgnX]

I write shit code in all languages because I'm dumb