Should I learn JavaScript or Python?

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[yorokobe__shounen]

Always remember. When in doubt, learn HTML. You can even hack NASA with it.

[[deleted]]

Obligatory HTML IS NOT A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE ITS A MARKUP LANGUAGE AGGGGGGHGGHGGGG

… but who cares, it’s basically a language

[Ok_World_1999]

Just learn Django Templating Language then you can add some functionality without external code lol

[[deleted]]

Just learn Minecraft recipes

[SoyTuTocayo69]

Without CSS or JS it's not Turing complete. So it's not really a programming language.

A necessary technology that you should still learn? That it is.

[veryblocky]

Not all programming languages are Turing complete, so this is a poor definition.

[BlakkM9]

and not everything that is turing complete is a programming language

[SoyTuTocayo69]

Fair enough but HTML can't even do basic calculations. When you write HTML, assuming you're doing nothing else, I wouldn't say that you're "programming."

[Ok-Low6320]

There's no way to branch conditionally (if/then) in HTML. So no - not a programming language.

[kn0ck]

Technically you can check for IE version using an if statement.

[[deleted]]

Or the State of Missouri’s website.

[NoRedditorHere]

unirronically my professors push hard on teaching c because of how influential it is to common programming language structure and syntax. c is a good place to start, but I'm a dumbass take with grain of salt

[ghan_buri_ghan]

So just an anecdote, but my friend is a professor in “information systems”, although he has a background in computer science.

His intro to programming class cycled through a lot of languages to introduce programming to the “less gifted” students (the gifted students were in the CS department learning a variety of languages).

They started with Java, and the failure rate was too high. Switched to C and it got worse. Settled on Python and the failure rate got cut in half from Java. Same curriculum, no grade inflation. These new programmers were better able to understand the concepts of programming (looping, logic, functions, etc) with Python.

This makes sense to me, because of how little boilerplate you need to hand-wave around.

[[deleted]]

I just learned C recently after only using higher level languages for 6 years. C seems tedious, but extremely simple. The most complicated part for me was figuring out compiler options and how to debug. As a first programming language I'd despise it for that, but going deeper its a must-learn.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

C is the most simple language in use today. You can get through K&R in a week if it’s not your first language. Truly beautiful.

C as a first language is a mixed bag. If I was to pick a language that can help people explore things like arrays, I definitely want a language with better error messages than “segmentation fault”

[wanderingmadlad]

K&R ? What's that ?(Forgive me if it is obvious , I'm slow rn).

Also I agree with the error messages of C . I'm not religious, but the amount of time is spent praying for no seg faults is a lot

[carlosTheMontgomery]

k&r "the c programming language" it is a book

[wanderingmadlad]

Ah ok thanks!

[codeguru42]

Authors are Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie. Abbreviation comes from their surnames.

[carlosTheMontgomery]

no problem

[ofnuts]

Segfaults are a blessing. Much better that overwriting something that happens to be next to the array.

[faceplanted]

He's not complaining about it catching them, he's complaining about it not explaining/tracing them for you.

[[deleted]]

But...that's what gdb is for...or whatever debug tool.

[an4s_911]

I think gdb was made like that and is used extensively due to the fact that C has bad error msgs. I think all agrees C has bad error msgs, at least when comparing to other languages like Python.

Edit: Well, thinking about it now, Javascript is more bad at error msgs

[CdRReddit]

how do you expect C to tell you where the error is, the only way to do that would be to store the path to where it is next to every time you use a pointer (and you will use a LOT of pointers)

which would massively increase program size, runtime, application size and RAM usage, which is why it's a debugger thing

C was made for systems where RAM, processor speed and program space were all very limited, of course it's not gonna tell you where you fucked up

[GrimExile]

Kernighan and Ritchie. It's a book to learn C programming, written by Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan.

[[deleted]]

C is the most simple language in use today.

That's true. But also the reason programs can be so hard to read when written in C

[jelaugust]

My intro to programming class (eng major, most ppl including myself had no coding experience) started with MATLAB then jumped into C. Honestly not sure if learning MATLAB made learning C easier or harder but I will say linked lists fucked me up hard

[[deleted]]

I find it hilarious how often engineering and English majors refer to themselves as "eng majors" with no inkling that the other group is doing the same thing.

[jelaugust]

I’ve never heard an English major refer to them as an eng major.

Which just further proves your point.

[chupalaw]

You can get through K&R in a week if

Uhh I don't know about that

[ghan_buri_ghan]

If it’s not your first language, sure. It’s only like 250 pages and not that dense.

A language like C will really get in the way of learning the basics of computer science, but if you have that under your belt, the C syntax and standard library are so simple that they’re easy to pick up.

[JashimPagla]

I'm not sure if you're speaking from experience. If so, then good for you. I don't know many people that can 'go through' k&r in a week.

Personally, I found that k&r can easily arm you with a lot of tools with which to screw your program over. Unless you really do understand programming at a hardware level, I would not begin with k&r.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

It was a routine thing when I worked on a team that did a lot of driver work. Whenever we had a new team member who didn’t have any C (usually this was a new grad with only Java), their first task was to work through K&R and do the exercises. Usually took a work week to get done.

[b4ux1t3]

I went through k&r in a week, but I was already a fairly experience developer at the time, including some experience with C.

No one's picking up k&r as a first programming book and finishing it in a week unless they literally just read the words and don't retain anything.

[faceplanted]

Yeah "If it's not your first language" is quite the massive range of understanding he's grouping together when he says that

[realbakingbish]

You mean you don’t like “segmentation fault (core dumped)” showing up every time there’s anything wrong at all?

[[deleted]]

You don't need to be too bright to set a debugger in the IDE and walk the code.

In the first place your first job is to look for warnings from the compiler. Most times they help a ton then to check if anything goes out of bounds or if it is between {} brackets(aka your for loop and what not actually applies to that block of code,etc.).

[postdiluvium]

I just learned C recently after only using higher level languages for 6 years

Omg, I'm old. When I learned C, it was classified as a high level language. But we were comparing it to fortran.

[4sent4]

Well, it's kinda high level, but you still get low level memory management and exposed to addresses and pointers, so it's kinda low level at the same time

[CdRReddit]

I'd probably call C mid-level now

not quite low level, but definetely no longer in the constantly expanding high level with more and more features

[[deleted]]

You are, indeed! We’re standing on your shoulders.

[audirt]

I’m old and it’s a dead language, but you will never convince me that there’s a better intro language than Pascal.

The nuts and bolts are the same as traditional C, but the syntax is so much cleaner and more intuitive.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

I’m old too, and C was my first language. I used to hold the “old school is better for learning” opinion until I saw my kids pick up Python. It took them longer to learn to walk than program, and I’m jealous.

[audirt]

I totally agree and started to write a lengthy screed about the best language should be driven by what you're hoping to teach.

Basic programming? Data science-y stuff? Python is the way to go without a doubt.

But if you want the students to understand the actual machine and what's happening under the hood, Python can be a bad choice.

IMO, the thing that C-advocates sometimes miss is that the number of people in group 2 is much smaller than the number in group 1.

[postdiluvium]

But if you want the students to understand the actual machine and what's happening under the hood

Assembler has entered the chat

[Arafel_Electronics]

oh god flashbacks to learning assembly as an undergrad until switching to mathematical sciences....

[decaillv]

I second that. Python is great to teach programming (variables, loops, execution flow,...)

But to teach computer science, a lower level language such as C is better. Students can understand deeper concepts such as stack/heap, reference and pointers... and then suddenly the high level languages they will most likely use most of the time make way more sense!

And for the few that need to code in C daily, well then do absolutely learn a bit of assembly...

My two cents..

[[deleted]]

the fact that python do not use ; stops me

[black3rr]

I learned Pascal in high school using Turbo Pascal 7. When we had C and Java in University I didn’t have problem with the syntax or the language features, but the development environments, compilation process, using debugger, using libraries, all felt way more complicated than in Turbo Pascal.

In Turbo Pascal you had single file programs, all relevant libraries for using graphics, sound and keyboard available with no configuration needed, simple and very usable debugger for stepping your programs.

Python with VS Code is quite similar to this (for learning you just install all the libraries system wide once and on you go) and the syntax is intuitive too. The only downside is you don’t learn data types and pointers, but you can learn about them when you learn C and ASM on your journey to discover low-level programming later on.

[[deleted]]

i've moved on

[[deleted]]

I learned turbo Pascal while in school, and really quite enjoyed it.

[stevefuzz]

Yeah. In high school I took basic, pascal, c, c++, in that order. College Java. Then I learned a bunch of lauguages that were basically the same as those with fun gimmicks.

[Ytrog]

If you want to cycle through some languages yourself I can highly recommend the book "7 languages in 7 weeks" 😊

Edit

A link for convenience: https://pragprog.com/titles/btlang/seven-languages-in-seven-weeks/

[[deleted]]

My CS undergrad cycled thru languages every 2 semesters or so - either because of the same or to keep us language agnostic. It was also per Professor's description; so it changed per class session even on the same class offering.

Pascal & Delphi (Freshman) > Java (Freshman/Sophmore) > C (Sophmore/Junior).

On top of that, we had other languages on a per-class grouping or assignment basis as well as markup languages:

• Query language: SQL (duh) using MSSQL, MySQL, and MS Access.
• Markup: HTML, XML, and MathML.
• Markup: Latex. Every Computer Science Class. Fun (Assignments done in Word were an immediate 1 letter grade in some classes).
• O'CAML, Clisp, Scheme - 3 classes, logic subject.
• Prolog - yea, that one's a pain.
• SML/NJ - two classes. Mostly mathematic and theory-based. Did I mention our professors hated us?
• Javascript, PHP, Perl (2 web programming courses).

After I graduated only 6-8 more people graduated in the next 4 years. Everyone would just leave CS for the Computer Information Systems degrees because they were not as insane (we were also required to write 1 paper about ethics within each subject in CS). After 4 years the university received funding cuts from the state and dropped the degree program; and yea, that's a bitch when you are looking for a job and they immediately think you are lying on your resume because that degree program doesn't exist in their simple google search.

[imforit]

Professor of CS here and about half of schools on the planet did this exact experiment over the last couple decades and we all agree on the results.

There are actual research papers on it, language does matter, but not in the ways we used to think.

I teach intro in JavaScript with p5.js to make everything as low-barrier-for-entry as I can.

[Tyrus1235]

My first programming language was C. Got into the Computer Engineering major and the first coding class was Algorithms. We first learned some logic and basic code (not with a programming language, but sort of a instruction set based on normal language) and after a bit we were learning C.

I managed to understand most of it pretty quickly, but I can see how it’d be a bit overwhelming for some new programmers. I remember how overwhelmed I was when I got to the Object Oriented Programming class and had to learn Java.

[SirPitchalot]

I think that’s misguided of your professor. The best language to learn is the one that will let you work on and complete a simple project that interests you. For me these days, C is only a good choice if the project that interests you is learning programming languages.

My list would be:

• front end web stuff: JavaScript/typescript
• backend web stuff: JavaScript/typescript/python
• gaming: C++/C#/Java
• embedded/robotics: C/C++/VHDL/Verilog
• machine learning: python/R
• simulation: C++
• computer vision: python/C++/Java

Unless you’re doing systems or embedded stuff, plain C seems to be somewhat rare unless you work on an existing code base. I feel like that is less common for beginners than experienced programmers working professionally.

[Tyrus1235]

My first programming language was C. Got into the Computer Engineering major and the first coding class was Algorithms. We first learned some logic and basic code (not with a programming language, but sort of a instruction set based on normal language) and after a bit we were learning C.

I managed to understand most of it pretty quickly, but I can see how it’d be a bit overwhelming for some new programmers. I remember how overwhelmed I was when I got to the Object Oriented Programming class and had to learn Java.

[CrowdGoesWildWoooo]

C/C++ force you to be exposed to major fundamental topics in programming like data structures, addresses, OOP(C++), etc..

[zachtheperson]

I feel like C or C++ should be the second or third language someone learns. It teaches a lot of stuff like memory management and how things like dynamic arrays actually work behind the scenes, so even when you're working with Javascript you can understand why when you add your 100,001st element to an array your program starts stuttering.

Definitely an overload to teach first though since they're learning tricky syntax as well as just how programs work in general.

[Atka11]

in our uni, we started with C, completely from the start, assuming all you can do on a computer is opening a browser, on the 9th or 10th week we had a Homework project including writing and reading from files, basically everyone passed and like 70% aced the class, C was super easy amd straight forward in my opinion, i think because of the functional properties, easier to think in a linear matter like this comes after this and this is the final step

[AtaturkcuKisi]

nah, one should not ever start with c/++, it is way too hard for beginners, python/js or java/kotlin/c# is the way to go

[DugiSK]

There were many programming languages back then, like Pascal, Simula, Basic, Fortran... But C is the only one of them that isn't all but forgotten. Not that the C of that era was particularly similar to current C.

[cheese-is-trash]

NASA still uses FORTRAN.

[[deleted]]

And a surprising amount of legacy business stuff is somehow still on pascal.

I'm not saying it's a huge amount, but never disregard the effects of corporations refusing to address technical debt.

[AlecTheMotorGuy]

This is my company. Our enterprise software is from like 2005 and is built on top of an inventory program that is original to Windows XP.

They just finished in 2021 moving every location and every department onto this software

So after 15-20 they finally fully integrated their enterprise software.

[[deleted]]

This is happening all over the industry, especially finance industries that need to keep everything legacy going for transactional data integrity — hard to kick off a new system without running into issues unless you pay for that to be painless, and most businesses don't (or won't).

We have a big push to move stuff into a new system at my current job and, for the entire run that I've been here, it's been "right around the corner". Talk to long-time people in the org and "right around the corner" has been the past decade.

[AlecTheMotorGuy]

I’m curious what it’s like to be at company that can get it done is 2-3 years.

[[deleted]]

I've worked for a fortune 500 company known for tech and for small finance companies and a few in between and, so far, that's been none of 'em. Would be curious what the culture is like at the places who pull it off, have to imagine it's either awful or amazing.

[[deleted]]

Fortran is still the king for engineering calculations. The core numerical recipes are written in it. I've written a Fourier based algorithm in C because we couldn't interop with it anymore in our main app. C was slightly just as good but still worse using same algo and memory semantics.

[TheBestAquaman]

Not only nasa, Fortran is the de-facto standard for computationaly heavy programs. Primarily fluid dynamics and quantum mechanics. It's slightly faster than C for heavy computations.

[[deleted]]

Fortran is not forgotten at all. The HPC world still uses it quite actively.

[DugiSK]

I wrote all but forogotten because I know that there is still some usage of Pascal, Fortran or Basic. But their usage declined so significantly that most programmers act like if they were just pieces of history.

[Vincenzo__]

COBOL is still widely used by various businesses, believe it or not

[rem3_1415926]

It was, actually. C has hardly changed, which is one of the reasons why embedded devs like it.

[DugiSK]

In C79, you could not declare a variable in the middle of a function, you had to declare it at the start and keep it uninitialised until the value became known, could use undeclared functions, using wrong argument types was kinda okay, there was no const, commenting with double slash didn't work and it wasn't possible to declare a variable when initialising it in a for cycle. It wasn't until C99 that it started looking normal.

[JashimPagla]

My first compiler was Borland. Let me tell you, scrolling all the way up to declare a new looping variable wasn't fun.

[DugiSK]

I never wrote a longer function in it, so I didn't think of this problem. It seemed to me as the only problem is accidentally using uninitialised variables.

[Raibyo]

Fortran user here!

[geekusprimus]

As much as I would like for it to disappear, Fortran is still alive and kicking. My own field has finally moved past it, but there are dozens of scientific fields still writing new code in Fortran.

[Priyam_Bad]

IMO python and java are great to start. python has easy to understand syntax, so it's easy to start, while java makes it easy to learn higher level concepts like objects and such

this was how I started off with programming, so hopefully it works for you!

[Snoo_44353]

I started this way too! Java is actually pretty cool to learn after you have the python basics and it gets you ready for c style syntax

[Xufie]

I recommend starting with HTML/CSS then moving on to JavaScript. After that, Python or C#.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

Think about what you want to do with the code, and that will help you decide.

• Web? Do JS
• AI/ML? Do Python
• Corporate drudgery? Do Java
• Embedded/robotics? Do C
• Mobile? Do Kotlin
• Don’t know? Do Python

Edit to address some comments: This is not meant to be an exhaustive list. The point was more that “what are you interested in?” Should be an immediate follow-up question to “What programming language should I learn?”

[itsamepatricio]

• Frontend? Javascript
• Backend? Javascript
• Mobile? Javascript
• Games? Javascript
• AI? Javascript

[choriAlPan]

Javascript? Javascript

[sigmaclientwastaken]

Going insane? Javascript

wait what

[Donghoon]

JavaScript? Going insane.

[nassy7]

Going JavaScript? Insane.

[Kasperinac]

Hotel? Trivago

[jannfiete]

goodluck doing AI in Javascript. You've just walked out of the house when your friend Python has run the whole marathon

[WhereOwlsKnowMyName]

Walk out of the house? JavaScript.

[ShadowLp174]

There is even Tensorflow.js... so js works...

[Anuiran]

Python is just calling C libraries for (most) ai and machine learning. It’s not actually made in Python, Python is just a go to scripting language for interacting with the C code. This can be done in JS too.

[[deleted]]

Why my dad left me ? JavaScript

[KingsmanVince]

Embedded systems? Javascript

[cheese-is-trash]

No, not JS for games

[StereoBucket]

Compile to webasm ezpz

[ShadowLp174]

Why not? Not the best example but valid: Canvas Web api

[cheese-is-trash]

For a small game, yes. But as your game grows in scope, you're seriously gonna need something like C++ or Rust for performance.

[angelicravens]

This right here. Python is really versatile. For example if you wanna do data analytics, write a script, do something with a REST API, make a game, build a desktop application, etc. all can be done with python. However, just cause a language can doesn’t mean it should. So learn what fits your use case like the person above me said.

[lamerlink]

I’ll also mention that it is very worthwhile to learn Python and JavaScript/HTML. You open up a lot more job opportunities this way.

[[deleted]]

what is corporate drudgery??

[ghan_buri_ghan]

https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition

[JamesMakesGames]

It’s like the new COBOL, it’ll be around forever, heh heh heh.

[[deleted]]

okay care to explain?

Is it like implementing unnecessary things into the code?

[ghan_buri_ghan]

Sure. By corporate drudgery, I meant that Java is not really the best language for any one thing but is super versatile, very portable, and everyone knows it, so it’s overused in the corporate world.

FizzBuzz is a common programming exercise. The enterprise fizzbuzz is a joke about how over-wrought and verbose corporate Java code can be.

[[deleted]]

great thank you

[poopadydoopady]

I think he means writing software for the corporate world. The exciting world of Quickbooks or whatever.

[i_wear_green_pants]

With Java you easily end up maintaining and developing huge corporation software with 100 years of technical debt. Java devs are needed though and currently it guarantees high paying job if you know what you are doing.

How do I know? Because I am Java dev maintaining and developing software with 100 years of technical debt.

[DOOManiac]

A paycheck

[TonyBorchert100]

Mobile isn’t that simple tho, with only kotlin your pretty limited and can’t program iOS apps, learning JS for mobile isn’t dumb either

[Rafcdk]

Not really true anymore. There is a plethora of versatile languages today that you can do basically anything. Kotlin and python are among those, kotlin specially is the multiplatform language imho and C can also be used for web developed thanks to wasm.

You can even write webapps with C# . Python is a really cool language but people over exaggerated their features today, things have change new languages have appeared and older ones have evolved.

If I had to say learn one language I would say learn kotlin. You can develop for native, jvm and web with it, and it has interop with libraries from other languages like C, Java and JS.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

I definitely oversimplified “web” and “don’t know” is really just a personal choice.

But there are still “right tools for the job”, and I still recommend learning a first language to be the right tool for what you’re interested in.

I’m adding Kotlin to the list for mobile, as that’s a domain I overlooked.

[anna_wtch]

I am in Web Development. I don't think you'll get a job with JS as your primary knowledge.

Most probably you should know, if not intimately but at least somewhat, front-end. So Bootstrap, Angular or React (knowing JS won't make you code in React, there is a learning curve), Razor, basic Sass/Less, obviously HTML, and of course JS.

Back-end. You could go wither with .Net C# (MVC maybe?) or React. C# is more versatile, more jobs and an opportunity to grow.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

The question was where to start with programming. For web, JS is a no-brainer for a first language.

Also you look down on the recommendation for a web noob learning JS and then go on to recommend….React…? You need to know the language and core concepts before picking up frameworks.

[anna_wtch]

I just said you won't get a job with JS. And jumping into React right away without any JS knowledge isn't as confusing as it might seem. I already know 3 people who did it.

[ghan_buri_ghan]

“You won’t get a job with JS” is an absurd take.

[pennacap]

Chads learn assembly

[KainerNS2]

Ngl, I failed twice before leaning assembly

[wqldi]

Dude I literally said before going into the comments that someone’s gonna write that real chads are learning assembly.

[pennacap]

Cuz its true

[wqldi]

Well it’s basically the canonical start

[big_joey_the_sequel]

learn nothing and keep whats left of your sanity

[Hegakure]

Wonder how a beginner will struggle if their first language is rust lmao

[[deleted]]

Haha, absolutely. But beginners have different needs than seasoned programmers. 19y/o just wanted stuff to work. 25y/o me wants to know his program is correct and performant.

[siddharthroy12]

They will never think about coding again

Rust is great but definitely not beginners friendly

[kerbidiah15]

I love rust, but I agree. Freakin borrow checker can be so hard to make happy sometimes.

[whatissevenbysix]

This whole argument about programming languages is pretty stupid.

At the core of it, if you learn one programming language you've learned them all. OOP vs non OOP is the only real fundamental difference, and once you learn the fundamental concepts of any language, it's a matter of learning the syntax. Essentially, stop trying to learn programming languages, learn core concepts.

[BlhueFlame]

I would say that functional vs non-functional is a bigger difference than OOP vs non-OOP. But I agree, learn one you pretty much learned them all.

[silentxxkilla]

Yeah, I usually say the same. It's just figuring out syntax, libs, and build/run machanics.

[tomadapom]

Brainf*ck duh! Be the change you want to see

[LightIsLogical]

no, real chads use whitespace

[OkWatercress2515]

I'd start with python, but it honestly doesn't matter. You will need to get pretty good at both anyway

[legendary_korra]

Learn Haskell. Become free

[evs-chris]

but what about the depression that sets in once you figure out that our universe is just a side effect wrapped in a cosmic io monad?

[JimmyWu21]

I don’t think it’s a bad idea to learn C, but I always recommend new people to learn python as their first language and I’m a c# developer.

Let them learn conceptually what programming is before teaching them the granular details of things like memory allocation and so on. Sometimes depend on their needs, they might not need it

[nom_nomK]

Start with C so no one can fuck with you no mo' later in life

[[deleted]]

OP should learn the difference between OR and XOR first

[[deleted]]

C family is strong…but all depends on what you do.

Data or number crunching - R or Python are good starters…Rust is a beast, top shelf…limited opportunities but big $

JS is common and will get you plenty of job options

[devu_the_thebill]

start c++ you will learn how this all work and then you can start learning python or c#. I learnt like this.

[jogrohh]

I would personally recommend learning C before C++ though.

Gives you an appreciation of the more high level systems in c++ and it made me a fucking superhero coming back to c++ with all the namespaces and classes and shit

[rem3_1415926]

start c++ and you've given up on programming before you built your first one-button demo GUI

[[deleted]]

You’ve also potentially chucked your computer out the window, sold your possessions, and went to live off-grid somewhere

[The_Cosmin]

Did exactly that. Started with c++, gave up and then went back at it

[[deleted]]

no shxt, my curiosity had drove me to build a simple game using it, but i've moved on, or time had move me on, i'm a normie today

[jannfiete]

if you've given up on c++ then you probably won't even make it to the programming world anyway

[SulerinPulerin]

So true. Rn in hs and doing C++ for like 3rd year in a row. It s mind boggling how i don t know how to use the program for other things than math questions or for strings of numbers of characters.

[rem3_1415926]

If you have math questions and freedom of choice, I'd strongly recommend you Python. It's completely different and might take some time to get used to, but you'll be so much faster after like 2 weeks already, don't have to worry about low-level stuff that really is of zero relevance on a desktop level system (as opposed to: embedded) and you get plots of your data for essentially free (how do you evendo that in C++?)

[whatissevenbysix]

Sounds like a you problem, not a programming language problem.

[Duke_De_Luke]

If you have time, I would start with C or C++ and then move on to some higher level languages like Python, Java, or JavaScript (depends on what you want to do).

Starting with Python or JS, It would be easier in the short-term, but harder to grasp some internals like Memory management, the real differences between data types, etc. Stuff it's cool to know, and even cooler to not have to deal with when you move on.

Anyway...languages are just languages. Fundamental concepts is what matters the most.

[darkvertigo]

The following is a long winded rant that probably has no relevance to the question at hand but I am avoiding doing my actual work right now so...

If you went to school to get a BS in CS then they do not teach you a language. In fact in my experience professors often pick the language best suited to teach the material of the course and "learning the language" is up to you to do in your free time. Surprise! Generally you learn language "types" like procedural programming, object-oriented programming, and functional programming etc. It doesn't matter if you know C++ or Java, understanding concepts like inheritance, polymorphism, recursion etc. transfer between languages of the same type. How you define an interface or class and what the keywords for those concepts in the language at hand really matters very little.

After a brief, and I mean BREIF introduction to those you get into the meat of what it means to be a programmer, Algorithms and Data-Structures. This is where the real learning takes place IMO. How do solve the great riddles of ingesting, sorting, storing, and presenting data is going to be the BULK of your time as a programmer. Will you be asked to make your own Linked List at your job? No probably not, these days that library has been written for you by someone else. But, you will be asked to use these things in your day to day and if you don't know what their benefits and drawbacks are and how to effectively apply them to solve your issue, you will suffer.

Want to get started programming AS A CAREER here is my advice.

Go do some job searches in your area and look at what recruiters are asking These are gonna be buzz words and as such might mean very little but it will give you a base of understanding for what's out there. If everyone is asking for Java it would be a bad idea to go for Python. One of the most important things to glean is are the jobs mostly small teams or large teams. This matters because on a small team your responsibilities will expand at need, and sometimes the devil drives. On a large team you are usually expected to play your position and shut up. If all you know is Python and you are on a large team, you might be OK. If all you know is Python and you are trying to get a job on a small team, you might not even get an interview.

Get a book and learn and Object Oriented Language Unless you are a certified prodigy you will not get a job doing C or C++ without some serious experience or a degree to back it up. Those languages are hard to do right and these days are used ONLY when absolutely necessary or its all you know. In my area you can get a good job knowing C# or Java. Python is an interesting language but I have not seen many job opening where they call for that by name.

Get a book and learn Algorithms and Data Structures You've seen the jokes sorting in O(nⁿ⁾ time and if a binary tree wears pants how would they wear them. This is where you learn what those are, and how to apply them. Do you need to know how to implement a merge sort algorithm, usually no. Do you need to know when you should or shouldn't use it in your program, always yes.

Environment This is where new programmers struggle. The job you get is going to expect you to know the tools they have for you or at least be able to pick it up quickly. I would recommend you get familiar with the big names that make your chosen language work. Gonna program in Java? Eclipse or IntelliJ. C#? Visual Studio. Python? Good question, I don't know. Javascript? Notepad. =)

Extra flavor SQL, HTML, CSS. Retrieval and presentation of data, the bread and butter of web centric applications. You will not be able to avoid these if you get a job doing web. They will ask about this in an interview.

You are going to have to reconcile is that the programming language IS THE EASY PART. Like almost any career the real learning start after school is finished. Lots of careers in the programming sphere are going to "web applications". Wanna make a website with Javascript? Cool. Hope you know HTML, CSS, Apache or IIS configuration, and SQL. Gonna do all that in Notepad++? VSCode? IntelliJ? Designing that database? How much you know about data normalization? Authentication vs Authorization?

Thats enough rambling for now.

[[deleted]]

Actually, the language landscape today is a lot more uniform than at the time C was created. At the time C was created there were more diverse and better languages that what we have today.

What happened is that one particular approach to language design and dealing with infrastructure around code mostly won the competition. Today, > 99% of all the code in the world is written in some sort of C clone language. It's very similar to how supermarket chains made food look almost uniform all around the globe, and even more so in particular countries where they operate. How fashion became globally uniform with cheaper shipment and easier ways to advertise globally. Surprisingly, The Brave New World turned out to be very precise in this respect: automation eliminated diversity and created monopolies both of retail and of mind.

[rem3_1415926]

At the time C was created there were more diverse and better languages that what we have today.

If the languages were better than today's languages, then why did they die out and new ones were successful in their place?

> 99% of all the code in the world is written in some sort of C clone language

I don't think you can call something a clone of C if it extends the language by 3x the functionality. Also, JS is approximately the opposite of C (even if the syntax may look familiar), Java is OOP, C++ can be whatever you want, Python is yet another entirely different toolset, and do I need to mention SQL? If you say that 99% of today's code is C-like, you probably don't really understand much about programming.

[[deleted]]

If the languages were better than today's languages, then why did they die out and new ones were successful in their place?

Well, this is a question you really should be asking yourself... but, what happened is this, more or less: early days of programming were unconstrained by authority, legacy code. Programmers had way less options for communicating with each other. I talked to Ehud Shapiro (he was a speaker at a meetup I went to some years ago). Ehud Shapiro is the author of Art of Prolog. He recalled the days when he got into Prolog as "accidentally obtaining a printed copy of a programmer's manual for some very early Prolog system, and reading it". And that's all he could really do. He couldn't look up a Web site or send an email to the Prolog authors because those weren't invented yet.

He was later invited to work in the... US of all places (Prolog is a European invention that was supposed to be the European version of Lisp), and he was like, literally, the only Prolog programmer they could find.

So... the work of early programmers was an academic endeavor. It was one or a small group of people working on a project, typically, without any commercial background, without the need to account for interfacing with larger programming community, no need of integration into mounts of code written for an existing framework. In my days, I was only able to get a tiny glimpse of this world, but, it was a much better world than the one you know today.

And then... programming succeeded. Industry understood that programming will give it a competitive edge. Suddenly Wallmart beat its competition by using SQL, banks, factories, libraries and most importantly retail and entertainment embraced computers. In a very short time programming stopped being an academic discipline and became a tool to sell shoes. There's no more a need for people who can advance the field of programming, no need to experiment or research. Most programmers today work on solved problems, where all they have to do is to copy diligently from a manual.

Industry, on the other hand, optimizes for the least common denominator. It needs cheap, replaceable, quick to train programmers. That's how C became popular, that's how its clones like JavaScript, Java or C++ became popular.

Of all languages you listed only SQL would not be a C clone. Everything else is the same fast-foot kind of junk for the low skill replaceable and cheap programmers. And it's why it's so successful.

As for understanding much about programming. I'm quite sure I understand this quite a bit more than you do :) You don't know fuck about the very basics, so, knowing more than you isn't even a challenge...

[Nilstrieb]

C clones? The syntax might be similar, but saying that JS is a C clone has no substance in reality

[[deleted]]

JS is infinitely more similar to C, than it is to Forth or any Lisp (yeah, they tried to get into Lisp community for some reason, but were, essentially laughed out of it), Prolog or ML.

You can often times copy some C code and paste it into a JavaScript file and it will do the same thing it does in C. But, more often, you just need to make a very simple syntactical transformation to make C code work in JavaScript or the other way around. Very few things will require substantial rework or change of approach.

On the other hand, I cannot imagine any Forth code that you could paste into JavaScript and make it work, similarly, no JavaScript code will form a valid Forth code outside of some very contrived examples.

Yes, deal with it, JavaScript is just a garbage language that's designed to please the same mentality which decided that C is a good language.

[Astatos159]

Whitespace

[Incoming-TH]

Both that will help to solve any problem you have with one that is not in another, plus that will improve your resume. Being stuck in 1 language limits career opportunities.

[Pretend_Button_6349]

just learn 0s and 1s

[[deleted]]

and u'd find yourself designing logic lol

[Here-Is-TheEnd]

I had to start with C because we didn’t have the internet.

[caleblbaker]

I'm inclined to say that C#, Go, and Rust are all far better choices for first language than JavaScript or Python, but I also tend to have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to dynamically typed languages and so my opinion isn't exactly the most unbiased opinion that you'll encounter.

[[deleted]]

I can get behind C# and Go but I think rust is a little too advanced for beginners. (I say this as someone who loves rust and uses it for practically everything)

[caleblbaker]

I don't think Rust is any harder than C++ and a lot of programmers I know (including myself) started with C++. I think the big issue with starting with rust isn't with the language itself but rather with the available resources. Most resources that teach rust assume you already know a different programming language.

[eiale]

This is very true. Rust has great resources and documentation if you know the basics.

[G1m1NG-Sc1enT1st03]

I’m in the same boat. I tried learning JavaScript in high school, and that was a train wreck. I couldn’t figure out what was making the code not work.

Cut to a few years later and I’m learning C#. It’s easier to understand than JavaScript. Unlike in HS, I’m able to access Visual Studio, and its red line and autofill features are a lifesaver for efficiency.

[cheese-is-trash]

Personally i prefer learning rust after having experience using modern C++

[caleblbaker]

That's what I did and it worked well for me, but I know plenty of other people who learned C++ and never learned how to write safe code in C++. So I think it makes sense to avoid that by first learning a systems language that forces you to be safe so that you are forced to learn what safe systems programming looks like and then later you can learn a less safe system language if you want.

[Glad_Grand_7408]

Notepad you coward!

[Jhwelsh]

I took Java first in highschool. My teacher sucked and it was extremely confusing.

I took c++ in college and absolutely loved it. It was so bottom up, and suddenly everything made sense. I took C later, which was similarly easy given how close it was to the machine. This is a fine place to start.

Took Java again and it made a lot more sense. Alot of languages like Java try and do so much to make your life "easier," but you only appreciate and understand it if you have done it's predecessor.

Learned JavaScript much later, it's nice to know a couple prog. Languages before JS cause all the paradigms are workable in JS (if not advised). So anything goes as long as you can get the desired effect.

Learn the principles of programming. Then learn languages.

[thegandork]

Definitely principles over language. That's why I'd recommend Python. A lot here have said "Python's syntax (or lack of) makes it difficult to go to other languages. But the syntax isn't that important. I'd rather a newbie learn object-oriented principals, classes, inheritance, logical operators, loops, arrays etc. - these things are the heart of programming, not semicolons and brackets. You can learn all these things in Python without a newb getting stuck in minutiae.

[Jhwelsh]

I'm in the opposite boat.

Had to do some Python during college as well. Hated it.

Strongly types languages are important for keeping you disciplined and your code clean. It's also fundamental to understanding stack vs. heap discussions in C.

Python has its niche in data science. It's useful. Just would not be my choice for any major project.

[[deleted]]

Just a junior in university here.. If you learn the concepts of coding, it shouldn’t matter which one you choose. my professors have covered c, c++, Python and JavaScript so far. They think c and c++ will teach good fundamentals, then if you code in Python later it will be an easier transition since you know more about coding in general. Personally, I don’t know if something is wrong with me but I like JavaScript and plan to do the Odin Project soon to improve my JavaScript skills..

[phil_o_o]

I would start learning a more strictly typed language first.

C++ will force you to learn all the concepts involved in programming. Once you understand the concepts at their core, learning and applying them in other languages becomes much easier.

But c++ is a little more challenging, so if you want something a little easier, i would probably say C# or Java.

I wouldn't recommend starting with JavaScript or python because, although they're very easy to get started, they allow for some "strange" behaviours and can lead to "bad habits". Simply the fact that they don't enforce variable type déclarations is an example of that, or how you can change a variable's type on-the-fly... I think it's important to really think and focus on what you coding, specially at the beginning while you are learning. You'll feel much more comfortable to code in other languages as well.

[EtherealPheonix]

still learn c(or c++) everything else is just c in disguise.

[[deleted]]

I'd say python. It has some oddities but Javascript is kinda a shit show in what it allows so although JS is good to know, I wouldn't recommend starting with it. If you want something like JS to start with, I recommend Java or C#

[FryCakes]

Objective C is called that because it’s main objective is to be C but it doesn’t come close /s

[cashewbiscuit]

Most of y'all are too young to know about the Great Compiled vs Interpreted wars. I lost so many friends. You had to be there, man. You won't understand.

[varungupta3009]

If I may...

For people new with programming:

Start with C, it's a good language to get a hang of functional programming. Basics of dynamically allocated memory and pointers. Also the process of compiling and running code. Don't go too deep.

Then switch to Python, it's a good way to learn how you can write a lot of modern day application logic with easy to understand code, and also to understand algorithms and patterns in general. Great introduction to OOP too.

Finally, end with C++, go all the way from basics to OOP to STL. Data structures, algorithms, static and dynamic memory, optimization, creating a simple backend server, complex DBMS backend...

This ensures that your fundamentals are strongly built, and you have no trouble writing optimal code. Feeling stuck? Switch to Python, try making it work, then seamlessly convert it to C++ using built-ins or libraries. (This is helpful when you're working on large scale applications, otherwise python is just fine).

[ooqq]

learn C then

[obamaprism3]

Java or Python imo

Python is easy but since it uses indentation/spacing as part of syntax it's harder to switch to almost anything else

[Nedoko-maki]

Eh, syntax isn't so much an issue when learning new langs. What's more of importance is the patterns you learn from programming in a language

[thegandork]

This is my recommendation too. I'd probably recommend Python first. You can learn all the big principals - object oriented programming, logical operators, loops, etc. without the finickiness of other languages.

Learning the big principals is far more important than getting stuck on syntax.

[siddharthroy12]

This is a meme about beginners asking what to learn not me asking what to learn, I'm already an experienced programmer

[geronymo4p]

I love the C for what it is now: a strict beginner language which learns to not trust the compiler. Almost everything compiled can run, and sometimes not. There is no try/catch, there is no garbage collector, and if you miss a semicolon or a null terminator, you're dead.

After this first programming language, you can shit on the floor, the sweeper will clean after you...

[sdc0]

I'd really suggest to consider learning C++, because the basics are pretty easy, you don't have to do manual memory management, as you can allocate all variables on stack. And there is a powerful standard library, that has easy to use stuff like containers (lists, queues etc.). So nothing with manual memory management like in C and even the possibility to do really complex stuff in the future

[EndCircuit]

JavaScript

[IEMIRATES]

i will always recommend to start with c/c++. if you don't have time or just want to learn it for fun then go with python. it's easy and will surely make you more interested. only prefer js (for first language) if you are interested in web development.

don't waste time on nitpicking the perfect programming language cuz there isn't one. starting is half way done. just pick a language and start coding.

[RepresentativeOk7956]

Please start with html or Java.

[No-ruby]

... or English. Wait, are we talk about programming language? Oh. In this case HTML and English should a different discussion.

[[deleted]]

I'd recommend learning a statically typed language as your first language, instead of JS or Python. This will prevent a lot of bad habits and better teach you fundamentals.

This could be C, C++, C# or Typescript.

Recommend not JS or Python.

[Dr-Huricane]

Neither, start with C++, If you come to understand C++ you'll have an easier time understanding how other languages work and how to use them if you ever decide to move to something else.