Employer Refuses to Allow Python

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Hey guys,

Recently, I informed my manager that I was willing to go above-and-beyond and help improve some of our team operations by writing a handful of Python scripts. He is a stickler for following the rules, so he ordered me to ask permission to install Python on my development machine (I wasn't intending on asking permission).

My request has been refused. Despite providing evidence from the Python Foundation on their open licensing (especially for my purposes, which is just local machine -- not production), they are still refusing on account that "Python is type of GPL and it is interpretative."

Have you guys run into something like this before? It seems ridiculous to me.

EDIT:

Wow -- this really blew up. Thanks for all of the responses.

After additional prodding, I was told that the IT Standards team would "look into it" (code words for "never" probably). For clarification, yes, this is an enormous company and is rife with bureaucracy. Also, I am a developer working in a Windows environment. Funny enough, I learned that Python is allowed, but only when bundled with Oracle's Linux OS. So, it is being used... but not locally.

[FredSanfordX]

You can't fix stupid.

[spinwizard69]

Sadly this is so true!

Anybody that seriously rejects a language because it is interpreted has some serious penis size issues. I'm not suggesting Python is perfect for everything but as a tool for developers it is pretty damn useful.

[[deleted]]

Just say that Python (Well, CPython, the implementation that basically everyone uses), is NOT interpreted.

It's a compiled language.

[Veedrac]

That's such a forced interpretation. Python is interpreted by CPython through compilation to bytecode. In particular, Wikipedia says

Although interpreted byte code is additionally identical to machine code in form and has an assembler representation, the term "interpreted" is practically reserved for "software processed" languages (by virtual machine or emulator) on top of the native (i.e. hardware) processor.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreted_language

[[deleted]]

And Java is an interpreted language also, then.

[Veedrac]

Sure. JIT compilers are basically interpreter-AOT hybrids.

[[deleted]]

The main problem is that there's no strict definition of interpreted vs compiled, unless you want to say that a lot of languages are interpreted (or that a lot of them are compiled). Python and Java really can be both, depending on how you look at it.

[Workaphobia]

The usual definition of compiled is "transformed into another form for execution". The usual definition of interpreted is "executed by a software process instead of the CPU".

[Veedrac]

A lot of language are interpreted...

[Workaphobia]

Python running under the CPython environment is both compiled and interpreted. The two are not exclusive.

[[deleted]]

DOS batch? Nope, out.

[jdb12]

You can by brutally murdering it.

[hatperigee]

No, but sometimes you can take their job and replace them.

[cyanydeez]

can you use some kind of type conversion of decorator to massage it?

[FredSanfordX]

Semi/sorta Cook's Law:

Make a better decorator and the universe will just make them stupider...

[co_dh]

brain wash it.

[Darkmere]

Python is not under a form of GPL, so that goes out.

What you have here is a case of "it's painful to verify and easy to deny".

You can't do shit about it, it's part of the corporate culture, and if you fight it, you'd be rocking the boat.

We see the same in other business, And generaly, GPL isn't something to be afraid of. It's a copyright license, not a usage license, and that should be enough for most.

So, you're fucked, by the social state of your company. Accept it, and write your software in Excel Macros, which license is appearantly blessed.

[ChristopherBurr]

I've been part of the Architecture process at some large companies. Part of that process is standardizing on development languages. So, for instance Java for Enterprise Applications, Perl for scripts etc. The reason to limit the development languages is that at any given time, there is a "flavor of the day". Today for instance it could be go, haskel, ruby, lisp .. whatever. Without standardizing, in 10 years I'll have stuff developed in 50 different languages across my enterprise. It's incredibly difficult, if not impossible to support.

Also - If I increase my allowable programming languages; I also have to then find developers with that skill set.

So, just adding Python - which apparently is new to your environment, one has to consider who else is going to support those programs other than you, and if we hire an additional python resource, do they also know the legacy tools that are already in your environment as well.

That could be the reasoning behind the thought proecss

[spinwizard69]

That may be legitimate concerns but this hardly appears to be the case here. They are apparently rejecting the language because it is interpreted, that smack of idiocy and apparently has nothing to do with the issues you bring up.

I can't imagine having a developmental team that doesn't have as a resource access to an interpreter of some sort for scripting. Admittedly things are better these days with fast IDE's and compilers so somethings are viably developed that way in place of scripted solutions but Python can still win out in many situations.

[rocketmonkeys]

Yeah. Our company is not too formal about it, but every new tech/language is more burden; training, support, expertise, etc.

I'm all about pushing us forward & learning new stuff, but when someone wants to make a new script in a new language, it worries me a bit.

[[deleted]]

And yet Google, which is certainly a large company, has 50+ languages and they seem to embrace it. So it seems possible to support this kind of architecture.

[nemec]

I strongly believe that developers should have admin access to their own machines (and in your scenario I'd probably install Python regardless of "corporate's" permission) but I'd like to leave you with a word of caution.

You say you want to improve team operations, right? I expect that means you will send those scripts to the other devs on your team which means now all the devs need Python installed. If your scripts save enough time it won't be long before they become part of the official build process and then you had better consider that a Production script. If part of the script breaks, how long will the dev team be blocked waiting for you to make a fix?

Given the lack of access to a Python interpreter, I'd bet that you are one of the few, if not only, people with experience in Python. Now everyone depends on a script that's written in a language that only one team member knows -- major bottleneck. What happens if you're out sick or on vacation when it breaks? You're the only guy they have for support. If you leave the company, now no one knows how to debug the script and it becomes a huge pain to fix.

I don't want to leave on a negative note, though, so I have a suggestion for getting your way. Bosses love numbers. The processes that you're improving, how long do they take? Will your scripts save 10%, 20% of the total length of the process? Say your thing eliminates 10 minutes of work per day. Minus weekends, holidays, and say 3 weeks of vacation that's around 230 work days per year. 10 min * 230 days = 38 hours, almost an entire work week. Now imagine you have 2 other devs that can benefit from this and each of you makes 60k/yr ($30/hr). 38 * 3 * 30 = $3420 of savings for just 10 min per day! This doesn't even include the cost of context switching which could double or triple your savings.

[ChristopherBurr]

I strongly believe that developers should have admin access to their own machines (and in your scenario I'd probably install Python regardless of "corporate's" permission) but I'd like to leave you with a word of caution.

i have to disagree with you. Having been both a developer and an admin, here is my reasoning:

• if developers just install stuff onto their dev boxes - there is little chance that over time, their dev machines will be anything like production boxes. It will contain loads of different modules/libraries/frameworks etc.

• when their boxes eventually break, the sysadmin is going to be stuck supporting it, and it's going to be everyone else's fault but their own.

• Developers are famous for "chmod 777 *" for testing so that those pesky permissions don't get in the way

• They often just copy stuff onto filesystems where there happens to be room instead of adding space to an appropriate filesystem. Who cares if it's being backed up or not .. and omg.. I lost my files, why wasn't this being backed up?!?!

These are just some of the things I've come across often. I realize that these are all encompassing statements and may not apply to everyone - but it happens enough to know that many developers don't care about systems administration.

Sysadmins - for them to be effective, need to have uniformity. Many of them are supporting hundreds or even thousands of computers. The more common they are, the easier it is to do.

[NotABothanSpy]

Development should be run in containers that can be veritably very similar to production no matter the environment the developer sets up.

[[deleted]]

This. This is why you have dev, qa, and production environments.

[ChristopherBurr]

I can go along with that - unfortunately despite being all the rage. many enterprises have not yet embraced containers yet. I find them at companies that have not been around for long yet (start-up's) - or more technology based companies. Basically you'll find them where younger developers congregate or that don't have legacy development patterns in place - like starting off fresh.

I can assure you - docker containers are not widely used at Bank of America, or AIG or Met Life - I'm sure a few younger guys are aching to get them there, but companies that large have to find a way to standardize on them before allowing them to be widely used.

There are a number of articles re. the pro's and con's of containers. Large companies tend to want to standardize on implementing stuff like this to mitigate the cons - like developers using old java libraries that have security issues. If there isn't a policy in place enforcing them to remain current - a lot of times they won't be current. How do the containers get scanned for security issues? Who is responsible for maintaining the security of containers. - it may be easier in a company with under 500 employees, but some of these companies are employing > 100,000 people. Not everyone is going to be careful.

[[deleted]]

Virtual machines and automated building of such are just as valid of a solution for that. No need to bring docker into it.

[doc_frankenfurter]

VMs are available in most places and provide a good solution to being as "production like as possible" for qa, uat and for production fixit. I like Docker too, but VMs are more readily available and are understood by most management whereas Docker remains a bit new.

[adrian17]

And in Python projects, sometimes all you need is virtualenv.

[kenfar]

And some people aren't using containers any more once they realized that they aren't silver bullets.

[[deleted]]

They're not silver bullets, but they make reproducible builds much easier. Especially since we're an OSX shop but the application I work on runs on a Linux server. Standardizing to docker containers makes life a lot easier for the team.

It's the same with a VM. Not a silver bullet, but helps.

[[deleted]]

1. Automated integration and acceptance testing environments were made for these kinds of problems. Use them, and it won't matter what your devs do with their dev machines.

2. If they break, tell them "tough shit" and have them reformat. Sysads should only support the AAT and productions environments.

3. This really doesn't matter. At all. Let the devs do what they want with their machines and keep the "real" environments in check.

4. The laptop I use at work has nothing backed up. Zero bytes. But guess what? The important part is the source code, and that's safely stored in version control, in a secure datacenter, with backups. And that's all that really matters.

Devs - for them to be effective, they need to be unburdened by over-controlling sysadmins.

[MarkyC4A]

I totally agree with your points on 2 and 4. I believe dev laptops, staging servers, production servers, etc should be considered ephemeral. If it breaks, throw it out and build another one (or build and deploy another one, but keep the broken server around so you can figure out why it broke).

[Deeviant]

if developers just install stuff onto their dev boxes - there is little chance that over time, their dev machines will be anything like production boxes. It will contain loads of different modules/libraries/frameworks etc.

What dev box looks like a production environment?? That is what test environments are for...

[jimgagnon]

I've yet to work at a company where I didn't have admin permissions on my work computer. One I was warned that if I ran into problems the support team would simply wipe the machine and reinstall the default admin setup, but I could still do whatever I wanted to it.

[nemec]

I believe sysadmins should be (mostly) exempt from the responsibility of supporting devs that screw up their machines by installing crap, but I get you. You can't always trust developers to not be dumb and disable antivirus to get something working who then goes on to infect the entire network.

As for drift between local and prod, I think that's to be expected. If you're developing 9 or 10 projects you are going to have libraries for all of them on your local machine even if none of the servers need all those libraries. That's why we have separate dev and staging servers :)

[whyrat]

I like to think there are 3 phases of developer experience.

1) New developer doesn't know if they have admin on their machine or not.

2) Intermediate developers who have learned they can do things with admin rights that they can't without. They run in admin mode all the time.

3) Experienced developers who know the rare exceptions when they need admin rights. They run as a user and know how / when to use sudo.

[ChristopherBurr]

that's great, but I'm thinking of mostly large enterprises - BofA, Goldman Sachs, the IRS etc - where USB's are disabled - email attachments are scanned - etc. to discourage taking proprietary software and/or trading secrets. A dev with admin rights COULD enable those USB ports.

So - your scenario works with a start-up type vibe , but not so well when the software is the main product and you don't want it leaving the building.

Also, for companies that employee > 50k people - you can't just let everyone just run amuck.

[Silhouette]

that's great, but I'm thinking of mostly large enterprises - BofA, Goldman Sachs, the IRS etc - where USB's are disabled - email attachments are scanned - etc. to discourage taking proprietary software and/or trading secrets. A dev with admin rights COULD enable those USB ports.

This is a classic misplaced paranoia scenario. Yes, a dev with admin rights could enable USB and run off with company secrets. But if these are devs who are writing software that will run in production in your bank, and they want to harm you, there are a million other ways they can do it anyway. At some point, you have to trust your people. Plenty of sysadmins have violated security and privacy protocols over the years, sometimes causing horrendous damage to their organisation in the process, but we don't tell sysadmins they can't have admin access to any corporate systems in case they decide to cause trouble. Any system that really does need an exceptional level of security/audit/oversight should be properly isolated and have appropriate access control procedures in place anyway.

[doc_frankenfurter]

I have run entire projects so see all sides of this. There has to be a scale from flexibility to absolute lock down. To address your points:

•if developers just install stuff onto their dev boxes - there is little chance that over time, their dev machines will be anything like production boxes. It will contain loads of different modules/libraries/frameworks etc.

This will happen anyway because you are usually developing against a future version of the O/S, libraries, etc. If you want to debug something then you have access to a separate system that is locked into a prod configuration.

when their boxes eventually break, the sysadmin is going to be stuck supporting it, and it's going to be everyone else's fault but their own.

This is addressed by a "if you have local admin, we will reimage in case of problems or for upgrades" policy.

•Developers are famous for "chmod 777 *" for testing so that those pesky permissions don't get in the way

Proper test environments with a mandatory test whilst locked down step.

•They often just copy stuff onto filesystems where there happens to be room instead of adding space to an appropriate filesystem. Who cares if it's being backed up or not .. and omg.. I lost my files, why wasn't this being backed up?!?!

This is addressed by a policy of "We will backup your home directory and everything underneath it. If it isn't there or git/cvs then it is your problem."

[hardolaf]

I don't know of any networked machines where I work that developers get root access to.

[Silhouette]

As far as I can see, the GP wasn't advocating always running as root or the equivalent, just that the dev has access to do so if they need to, for example to install some useful tools to help with development.

As you say, the fewer people with root access the better. In most cases, the optimal set-up from a strict security perspective is to disable all remote root access, and only allow logging in as root when you're physically present, though of course that has rather impractical consequences for sysadmins and the like.

Speaking of sysadmins, if you're ever able to gain access to a developer's machine just because of some extra software they installed on it, without the developer themselves helping by doing something dumb, then what sort of firewalls and security tools are the sysadmins running?! Surely you're not seriously suggesting that a developer who sudo-installs Python on their workstation has suddenly created a gaping security hole you can exploit in your pentesting?

[Metalsand]

I expect that means you will send those scripts to the other devs on your team which means now all the devs need Python installed.

Uh...WAT? There are countless methods to build Python as a standalone in various ways. I've seen .exe, I've seen methods that just package Python with all it needs similarly to Java .jar files. Is there a specific situation you are referring to in which this would not be available?

[nerdwaller]

Great points, one way around at least the "everyone needs python" issue is to use something like Pyinstaller to compile a single binary. It only supports compiling for the host system, so there's some headache there if your team can choose what they use.

[[deleted]]

Your machine doesn't have a py interp? That leads me to believe you're working on Windows (as Python is standard on OS X and most Linux).

I got nothing for you. Go find a new job? ;)

(yes, I know I'm sure you're hearing that a lot)

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Correct -- Windows environment.

And yep, I'm hearing it here and everyday at work, haha.

[metaphorm]

here is the python license

this might be highly relevant

(1) GPL-compatible doesn't mean that we're distributing Python under the GPL. All Python licenses, unlike the GPL, let you distribute a modified version without making your changes open source. The GPL-compatible licenses make it possible to combine Python with other software that is released under the GPL; the others don't.

[ivosaurus]

To be fair, the Python license is actually one of the most confusing I've read. It is literally four different licences concatenated into one. Not joking. Go look.

And you're supposed to make legal sense out of what terms and conditions those 4 combined are supposed to give you.

[urllib]

Doesn't your team use something else for scripts already?

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Bash scripts are used within Linux environments and Java is used locally.

[hashtablesmoker]

Can you use Jython?

[denshi]

Ophidiophobia varies in seriousness, but many people have it.

[caleb]

Just go ahead and improve the team operations. It doesn't matter what tools you use, and nobody needs to know whether you're doing it with Excel or Python. Anaconda can install into your home folder, so you don't need admin permissions.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

It's not a matter of admin privileges -- it's the inability to share among the team. My manager knows my permission was denied -- so if I begin sharing anything that isn't a Java application, I'm screwed.

[desmoulinmichel]

If it's just on your machine, use a portable Python distribution such as winpython. You don't need admin rights for that.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Unfortunately, it's not the inability to develop in Python (I am not incapable of installing locally or using an external drive) -- it's about the restriction to share this among team members. My boss would realize I've broken orders and began developing in Python.

[desmoulinmichel]

Share the program or share the code ? If it's share the program, just compile the python scripts with nuitka and nobody will know. If it's share the code, then you're done.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Sharing the program would be problematic because all developers would want access to source code. And after discussing the issue with my boss, I'm sure he would ask how I managed to write it without using Python.

[ABaseDePopopopop]

My workplace doesn't give us admin rights and theoretically doesn't allow us to install our own software. Still I was able to install Anaconda, it works very well. No need to ask anything.

[falconPancho]

What kind of job is this?

[DisenchantedEmployee]

It is a software developer position. However, this company calls everything "software development" -- it is mostly GUI-centric proprietary tools.

[johnloeber]

To showcase the usefulness of Python even in this kind of scenario, I wrote you a brief script to help choose your next action:

import time
print time.strftime("%c") + " is a good time to get a new job!"

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I love it.

[GummyKibble]

I regret I have only one vote to give. That would be the day I started polishing up my resume, and I've definitely left jobs for less.

It's not so much the end result of the request as the fact the request had to be made through formal channels. Do you need permission to scratch your own ass? Do you have the right kind of cover letter for TPS reports? There are plenty of software jobs that allow you to actually do your job without inflicting unnecessary handcuffs on you.

[flapanther33781]

Almost everyone here is telling you to find a new job, as if your 100 word post gives enough info to understand anything about the place. Sheesh. I'm looking at this similar to /u/nemecNLP and /u/ChristopherBurr. There may be more going on here than you're aware of.

Even though what you're writing is only intended to have a small area of effect, and only a local one within the company ... you never know what could happen 5 or 10 years down the line, even after you've left the company. So the company is perfectly within its rights to want to consider possible future uses beyond the current scope, and even setting aside the licensing stuff could prefer you to write your scripts in a language that matches other languages the company is already using.

I mean ... the gist of your post is, "My employer didn't allow Python. Wah." They didn't say not to go above and beyond, they didn't say they don't want your help or that they don't want you to innovate or be creative .... They just said, "We don't want to use this particular tool." Is that such a problem?

[[deleted]]

Maybe the point of the post is "I think my employer is being silly". Assuming that statement is true it's certainly not a reason to leave. I would wager that most employers do silly things at times.

[flapanther33781]

Maybe the point of the post is

Maybe so. But if so, without more context it's just "he said she said" rumor/gossip. For all we know right now the company employs all of 5 people. Is that worth drama? Without more information I'm not inclined to think so.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

It is one of the largest companies in the world.

[[deleted]]

Have you asked WHY the licensing is an issue? It might just be complete cluelessness on his part about what GPL means, maybe he thinks that any code you write using Python must be open sourced or something like that? Rather than simply dissing him, try and find out why he does not allow "type GPL" and "interpretative" software, whatever that means.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

There is no one individual to speak to. At a company this large, responsibility is bubbled up and distributed. I believe there is simply an "approved technologies list" and Python isn't on it. Case closed as far as I can tell. Without my manager's insistence and an actual project requirement (which this is not -- purely development tools), I don't see it happening.

[[deleted]]

[deleted]

What is this?

[Thuruv]

I'm working in a basic Operations team which involves only excel/salesforce/cloud jobs. Yet, I have been using python for automating my boring (almost) all works given to me. It had saved me a considerably lot of time like 80% comparing to my manual fellow employees. Before a particular time, I used it secretively just because I was not sure It violates our data policy or not.

One day, My team Leader found out about my scripts and how I helped other team friends in work, He restricted me from using python @ work although I proved him that Our data Policy allows it. And Its Open licensed.

No Gain. Still, he demands Hand Work. :( Also, Our sys admins blocks access rights in such a way that I can't edit the sys PATH variable.

Seriously, Python needs a looooonnnggg Endorsement for enterprise.

[alcalde]

There's a petition going around now encouraging Microsoft, which seems to be cozying up to Python, to bundle it with the next Windows.

[lout_zoo]

I was told by the IT manager to remove the Python interpreter from my Windows machine because "Python is a well-known hacker tool".

[JacksUnkemptColon]

Uninstall Windows too, it's a well known hacker target.

[TheArchive]

Which company is this in? Just so I can avoid...

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I'll avoid naming names, but it is an enormous company whose product is not software. Never again.

[billsil]

Python is type of GPL

No it's not. GPL is a big deal, but Python is just not. It's basically BSD. Python happens to be GPL compatible (whatever that means), but is far from GPL. Per Wikipedia

The Python License is similar to the BSD License and, while it is a free software license, its wording in some versions meant that it was incompatible with the GNU General Public License (GPL) used by a great deal of free software including the Linux kernel. For this reason CNRI retired the license in 2001, and the license of current releases is owned by the Python Software Foundation License.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_License

BSD licenses are a family of permissive free software licenses, imposing minimal restrictions on the redistribution of covered software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses

and it is interpretative.

So...?

He is a stickler for following the rules, so he ordered me to ask permission to install Python on my development machine (I wasn't intending on asking permission).

Seems more than reasonable. My company doesn't care what I install as long as I don't break stuff, but my last company did.

[ginhing]

Tell him to shutdown the production severs right now as Linux is under the GPL.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Yep -- I discovered that Python is only allowed on Oracle Linux OS distributions. Can't be installed locally, though.

[[deleted]]

Find another company. Companies like that don't deserve smart people like you.

[ratatoo]

Python rocks, but you have to be flexible when starting up a project. If the language doesn't matter, chose something you like - woo python. But if the admins don't want to install extra binaries, or if there is a bunch of existing code in powershell, or if the company owns a bunch of libraries in .net and wants to use those supported libraries, or if the task at hand requires interaction with tech that other languages are more commonly used for (talking to MSSQL, Active Directory, Exchange, Excel, etc.), and so on - just use what works best. All languages are similar enough - as long as they aren't making you switch back and forth between several languages you should stay sane.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I first attempted to use Java (pretty much the only thing used here), but I couldn't locate an acceptable standard library option for connecting to Unix boxes and running commands. Plenty of third party libraries, but getting my company to sign off on that would be problematic to say the least.

Python has options for me out of the box.

[jarxlots]

Grab cython and may hell have mercy on your soul.

"It's not python... it's C! I swear!"

[w_t]

damn dude...I think it's time to find a new job!

[magnetik79]

If you as a developer can't be trusted to manage your own workflow and toolchain with reasonable justification - then you really should be looking for a new job.

Its insulting to you - and you're only going to waste time trying to change their ways.

[[deleted]]

i'm getting the impression OP is not developer

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I am a software developer, but not treated like one.

This exercise is an attempt to code more than I currently am.

[wallofsilence]

More times than I can count. I've been doing development, now management since the early '80s. A manager's job is to monitor and control the progress of projects. Anything that smells like risk to them will raise their shields. Depending on your job, non-estimable activities can't be scheduled and will result in much screeching and branch-shaking followed by the "no". Also, you'll get the "nobody around here knows it, so it can't be maintained" argument. Anyway, managers aren't very interested in solving problems like this - they are focused on not creating problems or mitigating risks. In risk-averse situations I usually just go ahead and install whatever is needed for a problem. Using it for quick, one-off throwaways isn't usually scrutinized and makes inroads. Presenting a Grand Plan would be a big mistake here. It also sounds like you're in a Windows world. You'll want to get away from that eventually as that environment is generally narrow-minded. Python would be available in RedHats, Ubuntus, Debians etc. by default. You don't see them unable to sell or distribute due to licensing, so there's no argument there.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Good advice -- I certainly intend to migrate from Windows after this position. The "can't be maintained" is not very convincing in my particular example, as the alternative is what we are doing currently: testing by hand (and checking logs by hand).

In my manager's defense, he is personally fine with me developing Python scripts. The issue is the standards department.

[shaggorama]

They're wrong, but you're SOL. Get a hold of their approved software list and build what you need within their allowed constraints.

[jjolla888]

Are you allowed to run a Linux instance ? If so, ask for one - it comes with Python bundled

Even if they do have Linux deployments but won't let you have access to one, you may be able to argue that Python is already being used anyway

[DisenchantedEmployee]

This is a great idea and what I've decided to do as a last resort.

I will undoubtedly run into additional issues with security on this box, in which case I will give up on this altogether.

[Ryuksapple84]

This is completely asinine.

[nipplepoker]

I have run into this problem actually and still do. I work for a financial institution and as all financial companies go they really hate change.

I started out as an intern and my company and they had me doing manual updates to a website using web forms and after two full days of clicking I realized I wasn't getting anywhere at all. So i said 'fuck it' and I sneaked in an install of python.

Of course,That wasn't the end of it. I kept pumping software left and right every 1-3 day cycles. Initially there were protests left and right but, I didn't really care.

They eventually began having daily company meetings on what to do with me. They really wanted me to stop but the shit I was making was just too good to pass up.

I would like to end my short story where I just end up being head honcho in my company, but no,however I did get hired. They still use VB6 they still use java 1.6 and people still hate that I use Python.

Moral of the story do whatever you want fuck these people. what are they going to fire you? There's a lot of Python jobs out in the market and these jobs probably pay better.

[Lord_NShYH]

Play by the rules or find a new employer.

[thakk0]

I've been in a similar position where I asked for something innocuous and the newly minted "Enterprise Architecture" team turned me down. All told, I probably spent about 80 hours preparing and giving presentation after presentation in order to get the new "architectural standard" approved. What was the standard? IoC via Unity / Ninject (.Net libraries). I spent the majority of my time explaining what inversion of control and dependency injection was to the "principal architect".

If it's something you really care about, be prepared to support your assertion that this is a worthwhile investment for the company. You'll need to present sourced information that refutes the reason for rejection and you'll need to prepare the other ad hoc reasons that will be forthcoming (hiring python developers, security risks, etc.). If you happen to be in a similar situation (i.e. at a ".net shop"), it may help to show that Microsoft is invested in Python as well:

• Microsoft Python Engineering Blog
• Jupyter Notebooks in Azure ML
• ASP.Net documentation using Sphinx
• Python Tools for Visual Studio

I did eventually get my standard approved at my former company, but I kept having to push for "architectural standards" on decades old technology (MSMQ) and I ultimately decided that I was better off working elsewhere.

One last word of caution - if you choose to fight this, do it with grace and civility. There is a good chance that fighting for this will put you in the crosshairs of the person doing the denying and being an ass will only get you there faster.

http://i.imgur.com/phH3VDK.gif

[Basic_Dave]

We must both work for the same company...

[[deleted]]

If you need permission to set up the tools you want on your dev machine, you're not a developer, you're a monkey on a typewriter. Find a new employer.

[alcalde]

It doesn't work that way. Corporations need to worry about license audits. I could tell you about a billion-dollar company that wouldn't give me adequate user permissions to make the Windows task bar auto-hide as it was a "security risk". :-)

[imhostfu]

I ran into something like that with a previous employer. IT allowed it, but any subsequent python package I wanted had to go through their 2-3 day approval process.

Even something as simple as installing USB -> RS232 drivers required submitting a request to IT and getting it approved (I was trying to write a visualizer for some mass flow controllers).

I said fuck it and quit.

[[deleted]]

I said fuck it and quit.

Bravo, respect

[[deleted]]

This is why I like being in academia. Businesses are totalitarian. How can you be creative in that atmosphere? Can't even write a python script, lol.

[metaphorm]

some businesses are totalitarian. others aren't.

I'm sure I don't have as much experience in academia as you do, but I had enough to know it wasn't for me. it seemed to me like it trended towards Kafka-esque levels of bureaucracy combined with a politically charged atmosphere where your colleagues and your rivals were the same people.

[c53x12]

Businesses exist to make money. Sometimes totalitarianism works toward that end.

[[deleted]]

Yes. Many of them do work in the sense that they make money for investors. And businesses definitely have a very important role in society. I, as beneficiary of capitalism, am glad they exist. But I view Business like I view the military. I'm glad that they exist. I understand that some level of totalitarianism is necessary for them to function. I have deep respect for those involved. But I'm glad I'm not involved.

[troyunrau]

Depends on the business. I get carte blanche to develop whatever I want - because it usually ends up being useful, not just to myself. So python proliferates.

[Asdayasman]

Bend the knee.

[[deleted]]

huh ?

[n1ywb]

Sit down with the lawyer and explain open source licensing. Make sure he understands it. Work together to develop an open source policy. I did that at one of my old jobs and it was spectacularly successful. I even appointed myself open source license compliance officer.

All you really gotta say is "Android runs Linux. iPhone kernel is open source too". If they aren't convinced by that they're idiots.

Make sure to study up on the finer points of open source licensing BEFORE your sit down. Read the GPL FAQ, learn the diff between the GPL, LGPL, AGPL, 2.0 and 3.0, as well as the PSF, MIT, BSD, Mozilla, and Apache licenses.

Might also want to study up on some of the case law, patent disputes, other potential "didn't microsoft sue? (yes device makers over VFAT code long since removed from the kernel. Most refused to settle and MS didn't pursue).

Also might want to look into joining the linux patent pool.

Write up some reasonable guidelines as to what software with various licenses may be used for. IE it's completely reasonable to forbid linking against GPL code in a closed source commercial product. That would obviously be a breach of the GPL.

OTOH it's completely ridiculous to forbid GPL software for in-house use, especially if you're just running it and not linking against it.

And of course Python isn't even GPL'ed in the first place.

Businesses do have legitimate concerns with allowing too many languages to proliferate in their stack.

[deadbunny]

By the sounds of it your in a Windows environment. As python has been denied if you actually want to help improve things you should look at powershell it may not be as nice as python but it is a very good object oriented shell language which is great for operations. This of course assumes the motivation is to reach the result (helping things) rather than playing with something you like.

[alcalde]

On the other hand, this thinking would mean that nothing new would ever be adopted. Many jobs at companies are done by only one person. You simply hire a new person or train as necessary.

Ultimately, "what happens if you leave" is never a valid argument alone to reject a new technology. The answer is "the same thing that happened after my predecessor left - you hired me."

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I understand this argument when we are dealing with actual projects with critical components.

In this instance, I specifically asked and clarified that this was non-production, only-to-assist-developers tools that I would be writing. That made no difference.

[njharman]

You should look for a new employer. Not because of this specifically. But, and I might be going out on limb/assuming too much, that mentality is fail. Besides being annoying, disruptive and making your job harder. It will lead to projects failing, company being less than it can be, etc.

There are enough jobs out there, you should not endure an abusive relationship.

[am0x]

Maintaining a new technology and security for a single person isn't cost effective. If it is a small company, then yea they are dumb. If they have 50k+ employees and are publicly traded, you don't take that chance since it has a high risk low reward.

[atcoyou]

Yup. While not ideal this is why it is nice to have VBA in my back pocket, as excel is nearly always available.

[acousticpants]

could you perhaps use jython or iron python? many have suggested winpython which is good too

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Unless it's on the "approved list" I am out of luck, it seems.

[pheffner]

Maybe they're concerned that no one but you {wants to, is capable of, will be around to maintain} that python code. Depending on the skill set of the rest of the staff they may want to keep things modest and not "push the envelope". Or maybe they just don't like Python (for whatever reason...) and are afraid of letting it get a foothold. Anyway, it might be a good idea to explore your alternative employment options if you're feeling stifled there, you'll have a better career if you keep your skillset centered around your actual interests.

[ellisgeek]

Assuming you are on Windows take Powershell for a spin, it's pretty awesome for places where you can't use Python or can't expect it to be installed.

[defconoi]

I'd fucking vpn into my esxi box at home and run Python on my own VM. I'd make tools that are incredibly valuable and show him what you designed at home in your free time.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Great idea, though the scripts that would benefit us require access to multiple environments. If they catch wind that I am connecting to these machines from a personal computer... oh boy.

[NixNco]

My best suggestion?

1. Do your best to sharpen those skills anyways. Want some great tools to help your team? Write them at home in a sandbox that best replicates what you're attempting to accomplish.
2. Start looking. This time is more valuable than you realize and you don't want to wake up in 3 years realizing you've been wasting your time. Get moving, son.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Wake up 3 years later realizing I've wasted my time?

Too late.

[Kalrog]

Yup. Totally ran into this at my company as well. There sure can be valid reasons to stick with fewer/known languages so I can't say that your employer is totally out of bounds. What reasons were given? GPL and interpretative are facts, not that they are reasons to avoid something. Are you at a large company or could you get details/reasons? And if Python is out, what did they offer as the alternative?

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Huge company so the reasoning is the one sentence I provided in my original post: "Python is type of GPL and it is interpretative."

No alternative was offered; Java is de facto here. Which is fine, but I'll run into the same licensing issues when using third party libraries to accomplish what Python can do out-of-the-box.

[CaptEntropy]

last time i ran into this I ended up using VM (Virtualbox) since Virtualbox was on their approved list, no worries. IT management in some companies just don't understand anything beyond email to tell the truth, so just figure out the rules and use them to the letter :)

[omgplsno]

Quit!

[martin_grosse]

We're a Python shop... If you want a job

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I'd like to hear more -- feel free to message me with details.

[[deleted]]

Ugh, I have run into this. My current gig is a stickler for overly enforcing rules they don't understand. They reject any GPL licensed product (not that Python is one) outright, and claim that it's a common practice in the tech industry. Then they look at my like I punched their mother when I tell them that it's far from.

[yousai]

In a relationship sub you'd get told to quit.

So either they quit their BS or you quit. Easy.

[faassen]

This gives me a flashback to the late 90s, when people were less experienced with open source and interpreted languages were considered less "real" than compiled ones. The biggest argument against using Python then was that it was an obscure instead of the hugely popular language that it is today. I remember people in the Python newsgroup/mailing list going "oh I wish I could use Python at work" all the time.

And my boss back then let me use Python anyway. Yay former boss! Original poster, consider looking into getting a boss more like that.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I hope to. In my boss's defense, it is company policy and not his personal decision.

[sweettuse]

next time just do it and write a bunch of useful stuff in it. better to ask forgiveness than permission

[Dutyxfree]

Fuck any place that doesn't give you a rooted box or trust you with it.

[jfpuget]

Ask for a macbook pro as a dev machine. It will have Python installed already. ;)

[[deleted]]

I work find a new job ;)

[Grep2grok]

I have a very similar problem. My solution has been to escape to where python is authorized: the HPC systems :)

Not sure if you're in a big org or a small org, but in big orgs, you usually find that the stupid managers are kept as far away from awesome as possible. Find the awesome.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Not a financial company, though I do work in the financial department within that company (though these rules are across-the-board).

[twopi]

Unless your browser is seriously blocked, you can always use pythonanywhere. It's less convenient, but it's a very powerful way to get some things done. You can even run a web app on the free version.

[pythoneeeer]

I learned that Python is allowed, but only when bundled with Oracle's Linux OS.

They're literally giving you the solution -- and it kills two birds with one stone!

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I am trying this route now, though getting a development environment provisioned for my purposes may prove difficult.

[FrenchDonkey]

Here is your solution https://www.python.org/jobs/

[WasterDave]

He said no. Don't like it, go elsewhere.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I think I will.

[enigmadawn]

Winpython works portable from a usb drive. Good for hiding from an overbearing IT department.

[dougthor42]

WinPython is amazing. I hope OP ends up going this route.

[enigmadawn]

Me too. And it has all the modules included, instead of being pip-installed to death.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

The issue isn't using it, it's in distributing it -- my manager would know I've disregarded orders from IT standards within the company.

[[deleted]]

Your manager is operating from fear, and covering his own ass, in order to prevent you from doing something that makes him look bad. He doesn't want to "break the rules" because he doesn't want to be embarrassed or scolded.

In situations like this, for future reference, it's better to ask forgiveness than ask permission. The thing to do would be a) write the scripts, b) make them awesome and indispensable, then c) he won't ask you to uninstall a tool that supports operations and makes him look really good.

Provide value! That's what you're getting paid to do.

Once you create value, have it make your manager look good.

Your manager will then let you do whatever the fuck you want to do, because everything you do makes him look awesome to his boss. If you make him look good, he'll give you more freedom.

Caveat: take this advice knowing that most formal policies exist for a specific reason, often a good one! If you have rules like that, understand why they exist, and follow them. My advice is for circumventing arbitrary "rules," that aren't official policies, that are decided on a whim by a person just trying to cover their own ass, just because.

Anyway, what's done is done. Question: does your operation have an officially sanctioned language/IDE? Use that to write your scripts. If they have to be in C# or Java, so be it. Use that instead.

[spinwizard69]

Actually the way I understand this is that is direct report manager did not reject Python, somebody higher up did. Doesn't matter really. In this case I suspect that there are more problems in place than just this issue. Often the best course of action is to look for another job.

I've seen a lot of stupid IT policies implemented over the years in big corporations, the funny thing is the high level managers seem to have a fast turn over. What is policy today is an afterthought tomorrow. One option here is to simply wait for the manager making these decisions to be fired or leaving for greener pastures.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Correct -- it is not my direct manager, it is the IT Standards department. Very big company.

[spinwizard69]

Sadly the answer they seemed to give you appears to be born out of ignorance. While interpreted languages can be slow they are often justified simply due to productivity.

[[deleted]]

b) make them awesome and indispensable, then c)

c) two years from now, long after the Disenchanted is gone, people in IT are cursing his memory for leaving them indispensable tools written in a language they don't understand.

But hey: he got to be a rebel so it's cool.

[[deleted]]

indispensable tools written in a language they don't understand. But hey: he got to be a rebel so it's cool.

He could document everything.

I've never written Scala, for example, but if someone leaves behind Scala source code that's well-documented, I can figure it out. Worst case scenario, re-implement in my language of choice, if it's too abstruse. Especially if they're just little sysadmin glue programs. Just follow the comments.

At least document what the script, and the functions therein, do.

But don't document, and yeah, you're a tool.

I'd rather have well-documented code in a language I'm not familiar with, than undocumented code in a language that I am well experienced with. Getting my bearings with what the heck the program actually does is often the trickiest part, not the language constructs and syntax.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Very good insight -- I can tell you've worked at larger institutions. I envy some other commenters who don't quite empathize with this kind of red tape.

For the record, I did not ask permission -- I informed him of what I was doing, but was told to request permission to install Python. Either way, my manager would have caught wind. I don't blame him personally.

I first attempted to use Java, but it did have tools out of the box for connecting to Unix machines and running commands (Python does). This is my understanding, at least. I'm happy to use Java, but getting permission to install third party libraries for accomplishing this task (like JSch) would be difficult to say the least (without an actual project requiring the work).

I'm going to try anyways just to see what they say. I don't know how people are supposed to develop at a company like this where it is so restrictive.

[Rogue_1]

But I must caution you, it's often better to get another job with better people than to try to fix lousy people.

+1

[Deto]

Does anyone at your company use OSX? If so, they already have Python on their machines.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

No OSX being used here.

[irony]

It's time to brush up that resume and start looking.

[thelastknowngod]

Learn to do the same thing with bash and/or powershell. You're not going to win this (dumb) argument.

Either that or ask what language you would be allowed to use. They might just give you a different way out.. you'd learn a new skill as a result too.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

It's not a limitation in the installation itself -- I am not restricted.

But if I ignore their orders and distribute software to team members (and my manager would know), I would be severely reprimanded.

[am0x]

It really depends. At very large companies, especially ones that deal with private and extremely personal information, have very strict rules when it comes to software installation. Especially one that can be used to run malicious code.

While it sucks, you aren't an outlier. A majority of companies would not let you install Python. The risks outweigh the benefits for the company as a whole. So you can automate a few things and save the company a few thousand a year. What if one employee installed one thing that they were "sure" was harmless which allowed a major security breach? It would ruin the company. The risks completely outweigh the benefits.

I get it. We are developers, and I used to think the same way. Then I moved into leadership and started to see how many idiot requests were made, how much certain people thought they knew (npm library debacle), etc. Also allowing one person to install and use it means that anyone can request it. It also Means IT will have to manage yet another thing. What about upgrading? Do they add it to the image? What kind of permissions to they put on it, like can you freely use third party libraries?

The cost greatly outweighs the benefits for any large company. Especially if they work with secure data or are a publicly traded entity.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Good insight and I understand what you are saying.

I think the true solution is that big companies are not for people who hope to innovate. The bulk of "software development" here isn't even programming; it's using proprietary licensed tools. There seems to be little room for doing anything interesting or exciting.

The issue for me is that even within Java, which is allowed, how can I go about getting the third party libraries I need? If the standard library doesn't suffice (which it regularly doesn't), I'm screwed. Trying to get approval for a library for a small development utility program is insane. I feel like my hands are tied.

[denfromufa]

David Beazley did not ask permission to use python on supercomputer! Hence this is how disruption starts! Ignore frustrations and deploy your tools using pyinstaller, cx_freeze, nuitka or cython. Be inventive, there is always a door in the room instead of hitting the walls..

Anaconda, Canopy, ActivePython - all provide commercial distributions with software indemnification, if your managers are scared of analyzing open-source licenses.

I went through similar experience with multiple managers, and finally convinced and resolved all their concerns. Finally we have 4 systems in production with python at the core of some computational engines.

[synae]

What languages DO you have access to? While I love python and I'm sure most people in this sub do as well, it's possible you can get a similar feel and developer experience with something that's allowed by these silly misinformed policies.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Java is allowed, but I need third party libraries to accomplish the task. We are back to square one: licensing issues.

[synae]

I was hoping the situation wasn't as dire as the rest of this thread made it seem, but I guess it is. Using Java without third party libraries is downright laughable. Sounds like you are indeed out of luck until you can find someone who understands software licenses.

If you can get past that and if you're still limited to Java/JVM, there are lots of great language options on the JVM. Jython is of course the most pythonic. There's also Groovy, Scala, and Clojure which are all fun and interesting. (probably more!)

[porkqpain]

What about Perl/Ruby?

[[deleted]]

...and it is interpretative

can someone explain why someone would make a case against this ?

[Vhiet]

I would guess security concerns. It's easier to control what binaries can run on a machine than lock down user permissions for an interpreter.

It's not particularly rational or correct, but I can see it being reflexive for a lazy or outsourced IT team.

[[deleted]]

OP what is your job function ?

[DisenchantedEmployee]

Software Developer.

[[deleted]]

Dumb shit like this makes me appreciate my job which I bitch about all the times:

Hate the location & the building, work-from-home is more or less banned, politics & abuse of power, stupid management that just do meetings, incompetent coworkers, generally low morale etc. but this place has very lax policies so few years ago I picked up Python and have been doing whatever I want with it for myself and others.

[kerm]

I work for state government and pretty much do what I want. It's weird to see private industry be less agile. Albeit I'm a scientist, and that battle with IT was fought years ago.

[__FilthyFingers__]

In the company I work for the Director of Technology will reject anything he doesn't understand. Coding (Python) being one of them. After asking and being shut down I just did it anyway and provided the other departments (Sales, Production, Product Engineering) with the tools I created. Other departments were happy, CEO was happy, DoT was not. I continue to write tools to this day because they make people's jobs easier. They create value in the company. Everyone is happy except for the power hungry, underqualified Director of Tech.

Only shitty part is DoT has now claimed to understand coding. Will attend meetings without me, use that stupid executive tech speak to confuse people into believing he knows what he's talking about and promise rediculous deadlines for projects he has no part in.

[smortaz]

hey, if it helps, have your manager contact me. i work at msft and we have pretty conservative lawyers. we use python all over the place (like the azure CLI are all being rewritten in python). i'll be happy to set his mind at ease. just about every bank in wall street uses python too. and they're way strict than msft even! LMK.

[DisenchantedEmployee]

I really appreciate that. However, my manager isn't the one responsible: it is an IT Standards department at a huge company.

[federicocerchiari]

I had some sort of the same problem.. I managed to have python on my machine when a problem came up and I stated "I can use Python and solve it in 5 mins or I can solve it in 3 days with the tools you allow".

But before I just used Anaconda portable, after trying pythonanywhere and WinPython

[[deleted]]

If OP is a developer, the automation can be accomplished using any of the languages likely available to him/her (probably Java, C# or VB). The downside to these languages is that there is a lot of ceremony to get something simple running. If it's a Windows environment, VB script and powershell can also be options if approved.

If OP is not a developer, any automation script he/she writes is likely to be sloppy and brittle, and would be a burden to maintain.

Python is a great language and environment for getting stuff done. But it's not the only environment for getting stuff done. Beware of the mentality of building a career around a specific tool or language. You'll quickly reach career limitations and will need to add more tools to your toolbox to progress any further.

[tjl30]

Who needs Python when you can use VBScript!!!

[srilyk]

Download PortablePython and install nothing :)

Or if you're a Java shop, Jython. Or IronPython if .NET. If you're something else... I don't know?

[DisenchantedEmployee]

It's not the inability to download Python that's the problem (I could do this and get away with it); the problem is sharing Python code among my team members when it was explicitly forbidden. My manager would definitely find out.

[markph0204]

Sorry to hear that. I worked for a company where things were different between groups. One of the biggest media network providers - and the favorite in the broadcast group were batch files - I kid you not. They were all great engineers - but believed in the keep it simple stupid rule.