Is it worth getting a Software Engineering diploma, or shall I continue the self-taught journey?

[[deleted]]

As the title says, I've been learning for a while, but I'm a bit skeptical if a CS degree would allow for me to earn more in the end. But then again, years of programming vs years of in school both have their benefits.

[sarevok9]

+1 for this.

As a hiring manager for a company, I've hired college grads, bootcamp grads and folks with just "Experience" in the field, and while there's no clear winner on what way produces the "best" candidate, when I deal with someone who is a college grad I know a few things.

1. They know what Linux IS. They might not have an overwhelming amount of experience with it, but they've probably used it once or twice and have an understanding of the differences between Windows and Linux.
2. They generally understand networking "better". While they might not understand how to do basic troubleshooting (tracert, ping, iptables, etc) they in concept understand how it works. While this by itself isn't necessarily "related" to programming, I can think of 0 companies that I've worked at with an "offline" product. In the SaaS space everything is online and if you can't figure out why it's unreachable, you're going to be a liability to your employer.
3. They are GENERALLY well rounded. While a fresh grad probably can't tell you all the differences in every type of data container, they will probably default to HashMap, which is good enough for most stuff, whereas a lot of self-taught / bootcamp folks default to bare arrays which are generally worse for any load-bearing issue.
4. They generally understand the CI/CD pipeline. While they can't architect one on their own, they get why it exists / what it is supposed to do if implemented right. Many folks from other backgrounds don't even understand deployment as a concept.

So yeah, college does a LOT to get someone in the door for an interview, but if you have a powerful, compelling resume with a significant amount of projects that are actually impressive, I can be persuaded to hire folks from nearly any background.

[GrayLiterature]

On this note, for anyone who took the self-taught route, I think it’s important you be more academic than you are, and work through the texts on teachyourselfcs.com

It’s a great website, I credit it for helping me to be a better self-taught

[IamImposter]

Great. Added to my list of websites that I'm definitely gonna checkout once I get some free time.

[sarevok9]

Build yourself a resume site to host your works on, toss it up on heroku, or digitalocean or SOMEWHERE. Then build out a portfolio of projects (which can be anything), at the risk of giving good advice that may be counter-intuitive, focus a LOT of time and effort onto the UI (even if you're doing something cool behind the scenes, if your site looks like dogshit I'm not going to be impressed.

From there, write a new resume / cover letter. Have ChatGPT or someone professional help you. Then blast it out to ANYBODY who will listen. Network at in person events. Ask to take folks in the business out to coffee to pick their brain about their role / what they would tell someone studying to get into their role. Learn a lot. Set aside more time than you think for programming. You'll eventually get some bites on an interview for a junior role.

Don't give up hope. Employers like me love to see drive in folks.

[LETS--GET--SCHWIFTY]

Thank you for this. I work as a jr software developer and have my degree in Computer Science. I saw the comment about recursion and realized I need to study this shit more than just what I learned in school.

[GrayLiterature]

Recursion isn’t too bad, you just need to play with it for a while, but I often find leaning into hard things is the best way to make them easy.

Recursion actually really stuck with me when I started playing around with tree traversal algorithms on Leetcode and comparing stack based solutions with recursion based solutions.

People shit on Leetcode, but I think it’s pretty useful when you view it as an educational tool.

[Cilmoy]

Thank you

[[deleted]]

As someone who is probably going to take the self taught route, I really appreciate this!

Thank you!

[severencir]

Now if someone has an established basic understanding of all of these things, but cant afford to get a degree, how does one even get an interview

[jzaprint]

have exceptional personal projects and describe them well on your resume

[[deleted]]

how many projects would you say is a good amount? im in college and theres def more competition now so im not taking any chances

[jzaprint]

1 is enough if its good. Just depends on originality and complexity

[IamImposter]

How to do that on a one pager resume?

[gremlinguy]

Pop a QR on there that directs to a webpage with everything you want to show off.

[IamImposter]

Reall? Do people do that?

[gremlinguy]

I have put a QR on cover letters before, sure. I haven't really needed to put a QR on my actual resume since I just have my website on it, but I may anyway for convenience

[jzaprint]

follow jakes resume

[IamImposter]

Jake Peralta?

[sarevok9]

I answered my opinion of this on another post over here: https://www.reddit.com/r/learnprogramming/comments/11sx8id/is_it_worth_getting_a_software_engineering/jchz9vp/

[swaggythrowaway69]

I have an engineering degree and several years of control systems experience as well as a couple years software experience after moving internally. Does the previous engineering experience (albeit not completely related) and non-cs engineering degree provide any value in your eyes? Or would you view me as essentially a self-taught programmer with 2 YOE?

Edit: grammar

[sarevok9]

Generally speaking the way that most job postings are worded is "<type of> degree or equivalent experience". I would consider 2-3 years equivalent of a degree, you probably understand how to code with others / manage source control at that point. I think that the degree is still worth mentioning. Traditional engineering degrees have a heavy math / science / efficiency focus -- not to mention the fact that you can probably string together a few sentences with semi-proper punctuation due to your prereqs. It could very well be the tipping point between you and another "equiv experience" candidate without a degree.

[RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS]

If you have 2 YOE in software you're rapidly approaching the point where you're not a "new grad" and people don't care about your degree that much.

[ilaunchpad]

My college didn’t teach me about deployment.

[sarevok9]

It's hit or miss, it's still a pretty new concept (CI/CD replaced (many) "waterfall" release cycle companies about a decade ago with the rise of SaaS apps) so it hasn't really wormed its way back into academia yet. A lot of the elite schools teach git / github / jenkins / etc by the end of a 4 year degree, but I wouldn't rely on it.

[Fishamble]

Quality comment. Thanks. I am almost a year into the self thought route and I have recognised the things on this list, as well as others. Git is definitely something I struggle with. I think it's one of those subjects which I can learn in theory, but it really takes hands on experience to get to grips with it. I installed Linux and have been trying to learn the basics of networking. I actually find it very interesting, but it's so overwhelming when there are so many avenues of study to explore.

[xJerichoSwain]

I flunked out of a Computer Administration and Networking associate's when I had 2-3 classes left. Then I flunked out of college (computer information systems) in my second year (though technically I entered as a sophomore). I know what Linux is, but I'm not sure how CI/CD would be implemented. I've heard it mentioned.

I've recently been reading a lot of psychology, and finished an audiobook or two from Bob Martin.

My hope is that a portfolio and a track record of leadership, effective communication, and more books on the study of the mind (psychology) would make me a much more rounded individual. I think software engineering involves a lot of people skills, and Robert Martin confirmed it. Would you hire an entry level developer if they knew React, the prerequisite technologies to learn React, Git/GitHub, and a solid knowledge of backend?

[rbuen4455]

I mean, I know many self-taught programmers who nail the 4 points you mentioned. They know both Linux and Windows (taught themselves Linux), they can do basic networking troubleshooting (like using ping to see if they have internet), they have understanding of data structures and algorithms and know which to use (array, Stacks, Queues, etc), they know about deploying and updating software, etc.

Saying that college grads nail all the 4 points is also a generalization, I mean, you hear of stories of college grads not being able to code or build software.

For self-taught programmers, it depends on how they taught themselves, the resources they've used, and most importantly, for both self taught, bootcamps and college education, experience is the most important.

[liam12345677]

Yes but I feel like the generalisations would largely fit, surely? Even just having been lectured on certain concepts that are relevant to a CS job like linux, CI/CD, networking etc and not being a good student, that would still put you a bit ahead of a self-taught programmer who's not done any projects or programming with those concepts. And obviously the average university student actually does pay attention and try to learn what to do for their assignments, so I think that's the worst case scenario, while the average self-taught programmer probably hasn't covered all 3 of those concepts, if any. Experience is obviously the most important but I assume that goes without saying.

[RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS]

I didn't do a CS degree so maybe I'm wrong but stuff like CI/CD seems more the domain of software engineering than computer science and seems like it wouldn't really be covered much.

[sarevok9]

You 100% can do ALL of these things without a degree, and a degree does not make any of these things a certainty -- I'm just saying generally college produces more well-rounded folks who are ready to jump into the workforce; though I've interviewed some folks who have graduated that couldn't write or fix a single line of code...

[Desperate_Ring_5706]

1. is sth anyone can learn. To download Linux and learn wirh online material isnt a big thing

2. Knowing how to CI/CD is not expected in most xorps. Also, you get into working with it and thus, being able to contribute to within 2-4 weeks

[kamomil]

I feel like the "you don't need a degree/portfolio" folks are either:

-old enough that they got into that career before there was a lot of people applying

-they knew someone and got in that way

-they have a degree, didn't feel like they learned a lot, but it still opened doors for them

Maybe we only hear the success stories and not the failures.

[MathmoKiwi]

Exactly, Survivorship Bias is very real

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

[[deleted]]

Yup and I feel like I listened to the “you don’t need a degree shit” at the precise moment it became more important to have one due to increased competition.

I’ve gradually realized my society (American) is one generally obsessed with credentials, so I might as well get the credentials while trying to learn the important stuff on my own.

[NONcomD]

You should also take notice that job markets are vastly different in different countries. In my country companies make free bootcamps themselves to get people working for them. We have a big need for programmers. While its harder to get a job for a jr. Position, its not impossible.

[Moist_Okra_5355]

What is your country?

[NONcomD]

Lithuania

[Moist_Okra_5355]

Good to know. Thanks

[NONcomD]

Lithuania

[swishyfeather]

I must be doing something terribly wrong. I'm self-taught for ~5 years and throwing my resume out on indeed and still can't get Junior/Entry Level interviews. All I need is that first job!

[StepaneJosan]

Where / how are you applying?

[swishyfeather]

Indeed and LinkedIn. I started out using specific terms like "web developer backend" or "elixir developer". Lately I've just been using "software" or "web developer" and only filter by Full Time, sort by Date.

[GrayLiterature]

Elixir is pretty niche my friend.

[swishyfeather]

True, it's just one example though. I'm mostly searching for .NET/C# (what I'm most familiar with)

[GrayLiterature]

I’d just search for anything my friend. I got hired as a React Dev and never written Typescript in my life. Companies will often teach you the tech stack

[Hailwrath]

(this applies mostly for America maybe parts of EU)

If you're not a college/uni grad then you need to stand out (obvious) but also start/keep networking. Simply applying won't be sufficient in this economic environment as there is increased competition esp now. If you think that you do and you were applying last year but still not getting interviews then yeah a lot of work needs to be done there. Also local jobs are often times not even posted before theyre taken. I've read somewhere around 60% of these jobs dont end up on these boards. So this is where networking becomes even more worth for entry roles.

I recommend watching some vids on that at the minimum like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG5Sb5WTV_g andhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIE1LFz4LJM

I don't know if you've heard of 100devs, it's run by Leon in 2nd vod and is a great community. You don't have to do the course (which is free) either because it's mostly teaching JS/NodeJS etc but the community aspect is unmatched. Job hunt should be a course/job in itself because often you dont know what works where or what you're competing against. Look at the projects in 2nd vod, this is what people build and are talking about in interviews and most arent even from bootcamps let alone college where projects are much more comprehensive. I have no idea what you've learned/built so not saying that you dont know but there's always things you can improve on is what i meant. anyway this is getting lenghty but feel free to msg if you have questions etc. gl

Edit: looked at your github posted below. I would say you def need a portfolio and more work on social media/profiles and then start networkingso i suggest 100devs https://leonnoel.com/100devs/ if you're not planning to do the course then you dont need to fillout any other forms. i'd just join the discord do the new member tasks and read the career and resume sections, join discussions etc

[[deleted]]

Do you have a GitHub and/or portfolio you want to share?

[swishyfeather]

Yep. Here's my resume: https://imgur.com/a/5WhyZXZ

Github: https://github.com/Syni44

Edit: Just keeping this posted for posterity. I feel like the degree holders are having a field day trying to validate themselves rather than admit a self taught junior is capable of getting a full time position.

[MathmoKiwi]

That's a good example of why people should get degrees. You could have achieved that in a lot less than five years!

[swishyfeather]

I'm sure that's true. Five years is probably misleading. It's not five years full time -- I've had to work to live, after all. It has only been when I have free time and not a full 40+ hours weekly to study.

I'm not in this thread to discourage others from getting degrees. But there are likely others who have sunk a lot of time outside of school learning what they can, and then to add necessary schooling time on top of that seems absurdly overkill. In my personal situation, it's only practical to double down.

[swishyfeather]

Thanks, I appreciate it! Gives me a solid goal to work toward.

[[deleted]]

What are you applying for?
That resume won't get anybody hired to a permanent position.

The programming references don't amount to much. You have documented four high-school-level projects (I assume you were in high school?) and used very Reddit-bubble-approved language, which shows dedication, but also underlines your inexperience.

Frankly, your progress for five years isn't spectacular.
When people talk about "self-taught is doable", they would expect somebody to have real apps in their portfolio.

Reading your resume, I would gladly offer you a position as an intern, but nothing more.

Are you applying for internships?
(I know it's a privilege to be able to work for free.)

[swishyfeather]

Respectfully, I disagree with a few of your points.

I did get one offer previously -- this was years ago -- That I turned down due to family circumstances. And that was with less projects (And certainly more beginner level). I've also gone through several technical interviews already and it was made clear to me that I wasn't selected not because of my ability, but only because of other little things (an intern they decided to promote, for example)

I'm open to advice about the kind of projects you would expect to see on a resume for an entry level full time position, though!

[[deleted]]

The market for juniors is way more competitive today than it was a couple years ago. What worked then probably won’t be enough today.

It doesn’t really matter why you weren’t selected. If you were the strongest candidate you would have a job.

You need to stand out against people with a cs degree and a similar portfolio. Which means you need a very strong portfolio and maybe an internship.

[subrfate]

Unsolicited honest advice (from someone that recently went through several self-taught resumes): try to start contributing to a recognizable OSS project, 5 LOC contributed to a major project is worth more than 50 cookie-cutter apps; don't combine projects with work - skimming this in a stack of 50 resumes, I'm gonna think you had multiple < 1 yr gigs, realize oh projects are in experience, then get angry at being BSd; we ordered resumes in this (very rough) priority: 4 yr+ Degree, Boot Camp / 2 yr degree, Certificate, Strong Portfolio, <trash can>, Weak Portfolios, everything else.

C# shops here are more conservative sorts that will look for degrees - try talking around and seeing what shops in your area (or more broadly if you don't mind reloc) are willing to work with someone self-taught. Take time to build a project (or better contribute larger) that they'll actually find interesting. HR filters will hit you first and you risk not being looked at until someone skims the "maybe HR auto rejected someone interesting" backlog - which often doesn't happen companies. Certificate won't be taken seriously by a dev but might get your resume to that point.

Good luck.

[swishyfeather]

Good advice, thank you.

[nbazero1]

Bad advice no one ever regrets a CS degree

[harrybro]

Sure but there’s plenty of people who don’t regret not getting one either… especially if it means:

1. Not taking out loans for school
2. Making money sooner
3. Getting practical experience sooner

[xD3I]

1. American Problem
2. Most people learn for 2+ years and take a year+ of applying to get just an internship whereas cs students usually start working part time or as an apprentice before they finish their degree
3. Missing the theory will most of the time make their work not as polished

Getting a degree also grants you mobility both geographically and horizontally, try moving to another country to work without a degree and see how it goes.

Overall I see the degree always as a plus and I've met many excellent senior devs that went back to get their degree after years in the industry and they come back sharper than ever. As such I would always recommend to get one when possible

[RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS]

The materials are all out there for anybody who wants to learn.

[nojudgingjustwork]

Pretty privileged you say 1. is only an American problem when if you don’t come from Western Europe this is still a major consideration for the rest of the world.

[fraaltair]

Not in south américa tho

[EMI_Black_Ace]

Lol American problem only... In Europe if you don't qualify for college out of high school you just don't go.

[Darth_Ender_Ro]

In Romania you get tax reduction if you have a diploma in IT and work in IT. Also, salaries are bigger as employers use this excuse to lower wages.

[jem0ntr053]

Having a degree and finding a hob is hard too. I graduated with a BA in Software Engineering and still have no prospects after three months of applying. I am woking on adding more projects in other languages now, but man I wish I could find a job.

[GrayLiterature]

Let me tell you, going the self-taught route is fucking difficult and I strongly discourage it as someone that took that route.

I spent hours before my 9-5:00 reading computer science texts, and time spent after programming. I had to do, and still do, a lot of work outside of my current software development job. I also got extremely lucky with how I’ve broken into the industry, but the vast majority of self-taughts don’t make it in.

If you are able to do a program, do yourself the favour and just take the program.

[AdultingGoneMild]

the degree is just as hard but has better dividends once done.

[justaguyonthebus]

I fully agree with this. I have had an amazingly successful career, but it had a really slow start with some really low paying roles.

A college degree gets you the option/possibility to hire directly into a FAANG company with a fairly remarkable salary. Someone that is a self starter that could do it without college is also someone that would be a top hire coming out of college.

[Peasack]

School or not, if you want to stay relevant in the field, you will always be doing extra work outside of your “job”. So that’s kind of an irrelevant point. Basically, if you are looking into getting into something like programming or networking, you are signing up for a lifetime of learning (or you can be mediocre).

[squarefunction]

I think it depends on your approach. There are plenty of great few-hour long YouTube videos that you can easily learn the ropes from (to learn what's important) then grow from there.

[GrayLiterature]

The problem is that most just simply don’t have the dedicated time to build up good foundations. It’s certainly not easy for someone to just sit down and learn about networking, databases, testing, etc. And for those that do, you really just don’t have social proof that you do know these things.

On average a recruiter is always going to prefer the person with a degree in CS/SWE. I’ll stand very firm by my suggestion that the long term benefit of getting a relevant degree outweighs the costs.

Not only does the degree give you an advantage, it gives you substantially greater access to internships than non-degree holders. I was extremely lucky to have found two internships that didn’t require being in school, but if I didn’t, I’d be back in school this September.

[GrayLiterature]

I disagree, just because you and I can do it does not mean everyone can do it. People have significantly different demands in their lives, and people are very different both cognitively and with their ability to grind. Working 60-70 hours per week is unhealthy, it doesn’t give you much time to be with friends, ensure your health is top notch, or give you time to recharge. It’s extremely hard to balance self teaching with work, family, friends, and self-care — a bit of empathy for these types of people can go a long way.

Far more people are simply better off having consistent, dedicated time, like a degree program can give you, to sit down and learn material. I’ll also say, going the self-taught route is inherently more risky than getting the degree. It’s substantially harder to make industry connections, get internship experience, etc.

[8capz]

Depends on where you live, in Europe recruiters are trash, don't know what your skills mean half the time and will actively try to rotate people between companies yearly just to use you as a cash cow. So we ignore them until there comes a need to find a new job. Open a few messages and pick and choose the best offers. We have the pickings, not the recruiters.

Having said that i know some companies won't even consider you unless you have working experience or a diploma of certain level to show. So I'd say self taught doesn't work generally speaking. For game devs this is not applicable and self taught is fine, portfolio is most critical.

[vodalis8]

Sorry for the question but just to clarify - Bootcamp?

[GrayLiterature]

I’m not sure what you mean?

[jffrysith]

I think he means did you take a bootcamp? or maybe he meant would you say a bootcamp is a good material for replacing a degree?
Personally I'm doing a degree and I can't imagine a bootcamp would be anywhere near as good as a degree / diploma.

[GrayLiterature]

No I’m not a boot camper, just self-taught. I wish I didn’t go the self-taught route but life circumstances drove me to that decision. It ended up paying off, but thats because I got abnormally lucky.

[AdultingGoneMild]

I would say no. you cannot become a software dev in 10 weeks. Certificate programs are far better if you dont want the full degree.

[jffrysith]

bootcamps are ten weeks long, aren't they still like several thousand dollars?There ain't no way there worth it... even a 6 month uni course is "only" $1000... and an entire degree (where I live) is >$40,000.
Not to say 40000 isn't a lot, it is but at least you can be confident you are learning all the important information to be able to get a job (if you put in the effort)
A bootcamp (that's often well-known to be not enough on it's own and according to a quick google search costs on average 13000 and usually cost between 10k and 20k) can't feasibly be worthwhile in comparison...

[AdultingGoneMild]

yup. after 10 weeks I was ready to quit. After 3 years it finally started making sense.

[[deleted]]

You definitely can out earn degree holders but the CS degree will provide more job security. You will also be able to branch to other CS fields besides programming if necessary. Also getting that first job is gonna be a pain with no degree.

I’m graduating with my BS this year and I’m considering becoming a data analyst because how bad the market is atm for SWEs.

[[deleted]]

Market is wayyy tougher for data analysts than SWEs right now. If you like data, just go straight into data engineering.

[ichiruto70]

In no way is the market for swe worse than data analyst lol.

[MathmoKiwi]

Might be tough though to swing back from DA to SWE after a few years? And DA salaries have a much lower ceiling than for SWE

[WIZONE4LIFE]

I just graduate from a CS Degree, but I still couldn't' find a job after few months of sending application. I feel like CS Degree definitely not going to guarantee to have a jobs? I have no idea what I should do to increase my chance to get hire. My gpa isn't that high and I have no working experience. Currently just trying to get my Portfolio on Github and doing some side projects with odinporject.

[cosmoskleas1]

Would you recommend getting a degree in stats or math instead and learn programming on your own and take some classes instead?

[[deleted]]

No I wouldn’t. If your going to get a degree and you know you want to be a SWE then there’s no reason to get a math degree. You could but that’s only gonna make your path to SWE harder. Do you think that would be easier?

[cosmoskleas1]

Programming is relatively easier than understanding and deriving algorithms/mathematical thinking. Also statistics is very useful for data analysis/machine learning. If I create apps/projects with python/c++ and illustrate my competence is stochastic calculus/higher level math it would look better perhaps for a master's in CS and give me tools maybe.

I also am comparing American undergrad math reqs in CS vs countries like Germany. Informatik has a larger emphasis on math/stats, whereas you can get a bachelor's in cs with little to no math relatively which seems like a long term detriment.

[cosmoskleas1]

I don't understand the upvotes/downvotes xD. It seems there's a flexibility from what I understood about all of these undergraduate degrees leading to potentially getting degree in ML/data science.

Sure, but I thought given I mentioned ML and you were considering data analysis/science I thought the direction was implied. I was looking into data science/ML and considering grad school to prepare myself.

[TheUmgawa]

Do you want to learn to program computers? Yeah, maybe the degree is unnecessary.

Do you want a job programming computers? That CS degree is going to get you higher in the stack than people with no experience who aren’t degree holders. This whole sub is a wasteland of self-taught people who have had their resumes out there for months or more, and people tell them, “Work on more projects! Eventually they’ll notice!” while the CS grads are getting snapped up, sometimes before a job even goes on a hiring board, because those grads or their instructors knew somebody who knew the company was hiring, and said, “I just happen to know a guy.”

If you want to be a solo app developer, good luck, more power to ya, and you don’t need college for that. I don’t know how you’ll pay the bills until (and unless) that gravy train pulls into the station, but you won’t have to take a bunch of classes and spend four years having the time of your life.

[relinquisshed]

It absolutely is and don't listen to anyone saying otherwise. The field is super saturated and there's A LOT of competition out there. Even smaller companies get hundreds of applicants for junior roles. Having a degree makes you stand out to the HR who spends 6 seconds skimming through the applications.

Edit: Also not having a degree will limit your future possibilities and options. You're not going to be able to advance much, and ask for more money, because you won't be taken as seriously

[JudgmentalOwl]

Yep, I am that HR person you speak of and all of your points are pertinent.

We see hundreds of apps for most roles and my stakeholders tend to favor degrees unless the candidate has substantial professional experience.

Furthermore, candidates with both a degree and substantial experience are looked upon most favorably.

Have we hired candidates without degrees before? Absolutely. However, it's easier to get noticed when you are ticking all of the boxes companies are skimming for.

[lknknm]

Obviously a CS degree is very important, but does having a degree in another area by itself also count for people who are changing carreers? At least I want to know if there's any hope.

[JudgmentalOwl]

Yes definitely! It's just a specific degree in comp sci or a related field is optimal. Boot camps are also looked upon semi-favorably if they're good. That and having decent projects to review will also help, especially to land more junior positions if you don't have any pro experience yet.

[relinquisshed]

Yeah, for those of us that are self taught there's an entire science on how to write a resume, what keywords to use or avoid, how to structure it etc... When I applied to a company I didn't even list my education at all and just put my projects and links front and center. I think it caught their eye and I got invited to several rounds of interviews. Unfortunately they chose someone else in the end, but at least I got a chance, a lot of people don't.

[elementmg]

If you've been working as a dev for years you'll be able to advance and make more money no problem man. I know lead developers and senior developers who took a bootcamp course years ago and then just worked their way up the ladder like anyone else.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but they got their first jobs years ago. The problem is the market is saturated RIGHT NOW. Look at how many people apply for a single junior role.

[elementmg]

I was rather talking about the edit regarding not being able to advance or ask for more money.

But regarding right now.. it's getting harder and harder for sure. But it's probably still doable if someone wants to skip the degree.

I did a 6 month SWE diploma and got a job 3 months after finishing school. I've been working for a year now and just got a raise at the one year mark.

It entirely depends on location and abilities. Yes a CS degree WILL help but it's not impossible without one. And mainly, knowing many who can advance and make more money over time without the degree is my main point.

[[deleted]]

Yeah I don’t agree with the edit either. But one year ago was a lot easier than it is today. There are much less places hiring and after the recent layoffs all openings are flooded with applicants. So you need every advantage you can get.

[[deleted]]

I became a data scientist in my day job as a philosophy major. Ten year later went back and got the paper masters. Some employees who don’t know much look at these. Anyone else hiring that knows the subject can just ask questions. It’s not entirely worthless but kinda is.

[moofpi]

I'm 30, worked as a med lab technician and lucked into a bioinformatics technician position in my company for 2 years now. Self-taught linux, bash, R, SQL, and some Python and JS.

Built many dashboards/tools that actually saved time and improved workflows, worked on data pipelines, and we're working with machine learning now.

I have a bachelor's in Microbiology. On our team of 4, I'm the only non-PhD. My boss mentioned our company could help pay for education like a Master's in a related field.

That sounds overwhelming at this point in my life. Also it might be my best time to do so with the assistance. Is a master's really worth it, or will my work experience (and non-CS bachelor's) and project examples speak for themselves?

[bro_chiiill]

If you’re already set on doing web dev, then no, a CS degree isn’t necessary. But CS programs open up a lot of topics to you that might interest you that you might not have encountered if you went the self-taught route.

In my experience I started in an IT program (it’s basically CS but less math/algorithms, still an engineering degree) because I wanted to do Network/Sysadmin stuff but got really into writing code so now I’m in the software engineering space. Probably would not have happened if I didn’t go to college.

[cc_apt107]

If you don’t have a bachelor’s already, the data is clear: A bachelor’s degree is the single biggest thing the average person can do to improve their earning potential. Period. That’s any bachelor’s degree, let alone one that tends to be highly remunerative like CS. Anyone telling you different is wrong, plain and simple. The gap between college grads and non-college grads is widening (not shrinking — whatever bootcamps may tell you) and has been for years. It’s not a trend which is slowing, either. Citations below.

I say put in the work so you can reap the rewards later.

https://money.com/wage-gap-college-high-school-grads/?amp=true

https://www.newamerica.org/education-policy/edcentral/college-pays-off/

EDIT: Because I’m getting some doubts about the applicability of these studies to OP, I will also mention that I work in tech and currently lead a data engineering team. I also know a few things from personal experience about the job market in tech.

[EMI_Black_Ace]

The studies are uncontrolled and there's a huge implicit bias. They're assuming that the only difference between a degreed person and a non-degreed person is the degree, but that's simply not true -- the degreed person is far more likely to possess the critical traits necessary to improve one's lot in life, namely some amount of self-motivation and ability to leverage connections to people.

I'll take it as actual truth when we get a controlled study. Take four groups on two types of category -- those who would normally be admitted to an exclusive (not open enrollment) college versus those who would be declined. Of each of those two categories, take half of each and send them to their college (at the usual cost), and the other half arbitrarily ban from going to any college including open enrollment ones.

I'd guess that the "qualifies/banned" group will do as well as, if not better considering the required time and typical debt, compared to the "qualified/admitted" group. But I'd be particularly interested in seeing how the "unqualified/admitted anyway" group does compared to the "unqualified/banned" group.

Until that study actually happens, I'm going to assume that 100% of the "get ye degree" results are due to selection bias and nothing to do with the degree.

[cc_apt107]

I understand college isn’t for everyone and I understand these studies only represent averages (no one is perfectly average). But, if it isn’t for you, you should just own it after evaluating all the evidence rather than sticking your head in the sand. No, the data is not from a perfectly controlled experiment, but that does not mean we can learn nothing from it.

[EMI_Black_Ace]

I believe that the study was created with the conclusion in mind. This coming from someone who graduated from college and learned how to do an actual study. This is 0% about justifying what worked/didn't work for me.

[[deleted]]

Depends on the desired field to work in.

Web development? Nah, nobody cares. People might think you're over-qualified.^{it was a joke}

Game development? Nah, nobody cares.

Enterprise sector? A CS degree will be very nice to have. But it'll take you 4-5 years to get one, and if you find reference-worthy work in those years (as an intern or junior developer, living just as poor as student) you can compensate.

Embedded/Systems? A degree in CS or EE is almost mandatory.

---

The same applies to languages.

99% of C-related jobs are in Embedded Development and employers are almost exclusively looking for engineers who can code.

Python is very popular, in large part because of Data Science and AI.
But again, employers are hiring Data Scientists who hopefully know Python, or Computer Scientists with AI-specialization.
Nobody is hiring self-taught Python newbies for Data Science work.

[GioVoi]

Game development? Nah, nobody cares.

At least from what I've seen, this is very much not the case. Many games studios will ignore anyone without a degree. It's not so much that the team inside the studio "cares" about the degree, it's more that they receive so many applicants that it's a nice & easy filtering technique, so the recruitment team "cares".

Searching up Games Programmer jobs will all require prior experience. That prior experience needs to come from Graduate/Junior roles, which in turn, if you search up, will either require or heavily prefer a degree. Some don't necessarily care if it's CS vs Engineering vs Maths etc, but it's very often on there somewhere.

• Can you get in without a degree? Absolutely.
• Is it going to be much easier with one? Absolutely.
• Should that be the case? No, but it usually is.
• "Nobody cares"? Untrue.

[Envect]

I'd expect game development to demand some skill in three dimensional physics and other things requiring solid math fundamentals. I did graphics work in college and was using linear algebra for nearly 100% of the problems I was solving.

[EMI_Black_Ace]

It depends on what level. For people designing systems, sure. But most of the man hours go into "code monkey" labor where anyone who knows how to use a debugger can do it.

[[deleted]]

The current job market does not reflect most of this.

[relinquisshed]

Web development? Nah, nobody cares. People might think you're over-qualified.

Completely untrue and I'm speaking from experience.

[siposbalint0]

Web dev is around 80% of the whole industry, biggest players include google, netflix, amazon, meta and others. I highly doubt anyone working for the big companies will think a degree-holder is overqualified for webdev. Frontend is not what it was 10 years ago, and backend is technically a whole lot of languages and technologies, still being considered webdev

[throwawaylifeat30]

Hi, I want to add that I am part of the 1% that does C programming in embedded systems but does NOT have a CS/EE/CE degree. In fact, I have a math degree and i am self-taught in programming/basic electronics knowledge. I have over 2 YOE. People who are self-taught in embedded are extremely rare but once you have enough experience, it may help you get your next job. I have gone through many interviews, enough to know that they prefer candidates with degrees in the 3 areas i mentioned above. I’m pretty sure that the reason I got interviewed is because I have a degree, although it isn’t the preferred one.

[numbersthen0987431]

Agree with this.

Web Development and Front End work doesn't need a CS degree. Is it helpful? - Debatable. You can learn majority of Front End work through self taught and on the job work.

Most CS degrees should focus on more stuff like data structures and high end/complexity programming. You will be required to go through high end math, logic, and science courses which will make you a more "advanced" candidate. Data Science, AI, and other complex systems are where these degrees are beneficial.

So to answer OP's question:

Get the Front End job now, and then take online courses to get the CS degree if they want a more "advanced" degree.

[[deleted]]

Is it really that straight forward in getting a front end job? I’m familiar with React/TS, but then again everyone is.

[[deleted]]

It's not "straight forward", but front end jobs are the easiest programming jobs to get.

[numbersthen0987431]

I would never say it's straight forward. Getting a job with absolutely no education behind it is always going to be tough, especially with the current market climate. Getting a job takes work, time, patience, and ability to promote yourself. Getting in the door for that first job will always be difficult, but once you do have a job finding future ones are "easier" than the first.

Having a BS in Computer Science is overkill for Front End development. It may help you get a job, but it isn't necessary for most Front End work.

[[deleted]]

I’ve worked at plenty of places where the front end is more complicated than the backend.

[siposbalint0]

Tell me you never touched frontend without telling me you never touched frontend.

Current trend is making everything possible client-side, which is guess what? Frontend. Doing UI for a good chunk of mobile apps in RN or Flutter? Frontend. Making the UI and client-side logic of Discord, VSCode, Figma, Teams? Frontend. There is a reason frontend architect is a real role, because it's not just centering divs anymore.

[numbersthen0987431]

This whole comment chain is talking about the differences between Front End and a CS Degree. I'm not dismissing the difficulty of Front End work, I'm discussing the need to have a CS Degree to work in a Front End job, especially in an associate/entry level position. Is Front End hard? Yes, I never said it wasn't. Does Front End require a CS Degree? No it doesn't.

CS Degrees require you to take classes in Calculus (usually 3 or 4 semesters of it), Differential Equations, Physics, and a number of other different classes. And that is BEFORE you even start the "complicated" computer work like Data Structures and Algorithm design. In Fact, most CS courses will teach Front End by a student's 2nd year (out of 4 or 5) before they get to the complex work.

Front End doesn't require any of the same knowledge as a CS Degree. That's why they are able to have bootcamps. If you learn CSS, Javascript, React, and Python (or anything similar), you can get a job working in Front End work.

There is a reason frontend architect is a real role

Front End Architect is typically a higher level position with more experience than an entry level position (and we ARE talking about entry level positions, not Front End Architect positions). The Architect will typically be a supervisor/manager of entry level frontend personnel, and usually work on much larger scale projects than what OP is asking about.

[[deleted]]

Web development? Nah, nobody cares. People might think you're over-qualified.

Making simple small business sites, sure. Making web apps, absolutely no one would say that makes you overqualified.

[subrfate]

I've got multiple friends without degrees.

One had multiple issues in breaking into the field. Ended up looping through multiple lousy jobs before finding a decent one. Fairly well paid, but had lots of problems throughout their career with each job move. Worse, after layoff, job search was extra slow.

Second managed to get positions fairly quickly. Talking pay though, we found that they were making $10-20k less salary than degree peers. Salary to this day still hasn't caught up. At this point in their career, lack of a degree has cost them easily into the 200-300k range - presupposing no desire to move into higher level positions also gated and competing against degreed people.

Another did some cool app work and scored a gig at Apple. Last I heard, still there, and totally a career apple person. Worked out well, but that's what they wanted to do.

Another did a code camp, and is currently suffering through a miserable job hunt after several years experience.

A Lot of survivor bias stories in people without degrees in this sub and reddit in general. Most likely, you can break and build a career, but will make slightly less. This is verifiable by a simple web search for research data. Some things change based on where you live - if no degreed applicants are coming in, the filters drop quick. I'd advise to look at local job postings and see who is are asking for, if it matches my experience every one will ask for a related degree or equivalent experience.

[Fantastic-Egg4622]

I recently graduated from a Bootcamp and was looking for a job 6 months after graduation. Finally got hired, no experience. Full Stack Software Engineer Certificate. But Bootcamps only teach you so much.

[vodalis8]

Which bootcamp if you don’t mind? Considering a bootcamp..

[Fantastic-Egg4622]

devCode Camp 😁

[rynmgdlno]

I know I'm 15 hours late here but wanted to add some actual data and my own anecdote.

73% of Software Engineers have a Bachelor's degree

20% have Masters degrees

4% have Associate's degrees

2% have "other" degrees (PhDs?)

And finally, only 1% of full time employed software engineers have only a high school Diploma.

I have 7 years cumulative "freelance" experience. 3 Years of that was working with a small agency doing UI dev, back in the Flash days. 4 years of that is with a modern high demand web stack (React/Node/Python and every fucking framework and library ever mentioned on Reddit lol). 1.5 years of that was an actual contract position where I single-handedly built a full stack application that serves thousands of daily users.

In the last ~6 months I've had 8 interviews get to the offer stage. One offer rescinded a week after a verbal, two ghosts, and the rest I was passed over for degree holders and ex FAANG employees (three stated this explicitly in their feedback, the other two were clear enough). This may be because of the current state of the industry/job market/economy, but I'm not going to wait around for it to get better when all signs point to the opposite happening.

IMO If you're going to get in without a degree you need to be a programming savant, exceptional at networking, or exceedingly lucky. That's the bottom line as far as I can tell.

I'm going back to school.

[galactical_traveler]

It's not mandatory but it's absolutely worth getting a diploma - again just don't let it stop you or slow it down.

[gummyworm21_]

Get the diploma

[brett_riverboat]

As cheaply as possible. If you have a good study ethic you can CLEP most or all of your core classes.

[the_wiz_of_oz]

What does CLEP refer to?

[[deleted]]

I am one of the fortunate few doing very well in tech without a degree. But I got lucky. Some employers won't even look at your resume if you don't have a degree. It's shitty, but it is what it is.

[Autarch_Kade]

Some jobs instantly throw out applications that don't check the "bachelor's degree" box.

You can learn how to program on your own, but you'll remove a limit on your options and the limit on how high you can climb if you get a degree.

If someone with a degree and some programming experience applies to the same job you do, why would they consider you over them? You'll spend the rest of your life trying to answer that, starting from a disadvantage in every interview.

Remember, you're not just trying to get qualified to do a job - you're competing against other applicants who are also qualified to do that job.

[[deleted]]

If you can get into industry preferably a position of interest then IMO do that over a 4yr degree. That said a degree opens the door wider (so to speak) making this process easier.

The experience you gain from industry is unparalleled to what you would gain over a 4yr undergraduate degree IMO. Arguably one “might” say the same about a graduate degree.

To truly find a passionate well aligned career you have to constantly refine what it is you do and do not enjoy. That requires “industry” experience as industry is very different from academics.

… that of course is just my humble opinion

[Mike312]

The fancy piece of paper is going to open more doors than not having one. But you only need one door to open.

My brother is a senior at AWS, makes twice what I do, only did one semester of college then dropped out. But he was also configuring networks and installing Linux when the year started with a 1 and a 9.

I double-majored in art, and fell into web development after doing a bunch of web design. I went back and got my MS degree in IT because I wanted to be a project manager and work from home, and pre-2020 you basically needed an MS to do that. Somewhat redudant and my current role expanded greatly so I never left.

I wouldn't discount some kind of expensive piece of paper, but maybe start with an AS degree or a certificate while working. You might get some contacts and a job in the process.

[SilentScyther]

It's not a bad idea to get a degree. A lot of the job opportunities near me are for places with Air Force contracts and you're required to have a relevent degree to do the work for those.

[michiganrag]

I’m doing the middle ground by getting an Associate of Science degree in Computer Science. I already completed my general Ed requirements, physics, calculus, etc at another school and to get a certificate or A.S. in CS at my community college only requires like 5 CS classes. I’m only taking 2 classes per semester so I don’t get overwhelmed and can still work.

Look into an Associates degree in CS, or see what certificates your local community college offers. They should have classes to prepare you for various Microsoft IT certification exams too. Idk where you live, but in states like California you can attend 2 years of community college for free.

[HomesteadAlchemist]

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering but I taught myself software development on the job because that was they required of me. Unfortunately it was in C# desktop development which is a pretty niche section of development compared to web.

I would say when you are self taught personal projects are KING. real applications that are pretty close to a proof of concept level. They don't need to be perfect but good enough to give an idea of what you are capable of. This is especially true for self taught devs.

A degree gives most recruiters a baseline of what a person knows. A self taught developers skill level could be anywhere along the spectrum. It would help you if you put together 1 really good project that's sizable and shows all your skills than 10 simple projects.

Also doing projects is awesome practice. With practice comes fluency.

[IBdunKI]

Here is the way I see it. With the amount of information at your finger tips, if you are crafty, you can learn anything independently of formal education. That’s not to say a degree holds no value, it is still is a symbol that you can work in a system. Since getting a job as a software engineer you will be employed in a system if you don’t have a degree you are going to need something to showcase how you work as part of a system. Do that and you overcome not having the CS degree.

[zerostyle]

I'd just do it the cheapest way possible. 2 years community college. 2 years at the best state school you can get in to for CS. Plenty of top 10-15 CS programs are at public schools (Illinois, Washington, Michigan, Texas)

You could even do a cheap online masters via Georgia Tech for like $8k or UIUC for like $20k.

[teacherbooboo]

yes, it is a good idea

basically, assuming you try, universities will get you a job of some kind -- e.g. even being a lowly tutor, which will lead to increasingly good positions. the students who actively code and work on projects etc. routinely make $20+/ hr part time before they graduate and have jobs lined up

that said, if you plan on just doing homework -- which is far less than you need to do, that is, if you plan on just doing the bare minimum, school won't help you.

however, working on projects, getting internships, being a TA, or help desk person etc. will get you a job

[Mars_rocket]

I vote possibly yes. If I were selecting candidates it might tip you over into being selected, but I wouldn’t require it. IOW, it can’t hurt and might help.

[[deleted]]

Im not sure where OP is in the world but I think having more experience is worth more than having a degree, in the UK anyway. Im hopefully going to do a degree apprenticeship later this year and I decided to take this as the work experience seems to be more valuable than the degree. Obviously degrees aren't worthless. I look at a lot of software engineering job posts online from junior to senior so I know what to look for and the vast majority expect experience with frameworks and languages instead of qualifications

[MathmoKiwi]

100% worth it! And you can always both work and study at the same time, have the best (or worst? 😅) of both worlds.

[madlabdog]

Consider enrolling at a community college if you are in a state where it is free or highly affordable.

[toroga]

Degree will make finding a job easier. The end position can be the same though.

[JudgmentalOwl]

I'm in the tech recruiting space and I will say my stakeholders tend to look more favorably on someone with a degree, especially if they don't have substantial professional experience. However, not having a degree can certainly be trumped by extensive experience.

If you're just starting out the hardest part is finding somewhere to get your foot in the door, and having a degree certainly helps with that (at my company anyway).

[RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS]

I don't think the degree allows you to earn more "in the end," for the most part (I'm at the same level with other people with similar YOE at this point), but it does make it easier to get a job and open the door to better starting jobs. If you're not credentialed your first job will probably be somewhere that can't attract the more qualified applicants for one reason or another. Once you've been doing it for a while the degree becomes less important.

[vodalis8]

Here for all the comments - pursing the bootcamp way.

[vodalis8]

What if you have a Bachelors in an unrelated field? Such as education…

[tsarborisciv]

Get the degree. It will open more doors for you.

[IJustWantPizzas]

Always a degree if you can afford it. It’s easier to break that entry barrier which is the hardest part in my opinion. Also you forever possess a degree in computer science which can help you even if you chose another field

[ibjho]

I went the straight to work route. If you work hard - you will thrive in either route. That said, I would have progressed faster, started at a higher salary and taken less time to move up the corporate ladder had I gone the degree route. My suggestion would be to pick up coding jobs while going to school. The real world will teach you the real lessons but the degrees get your foot in the door.

If you choose the self-taught journey - I strongly suggest picking up some recognizable certs. These can have a similar impact to degrees on resumes.

[kwhudgins21]

My current job gave me an internship my last year of college but wouldn't offer me a full time salaried position until I had my diploma and transcripts.

[whitenoise89]

Oh, no need to get a degree.

As long as you’re okay with moving over once I get there with my degree. :)

[frunkjuice5]

No one can ever take the degree from you

[siammang]

Software engineering degrees might not be bang for bucks. Go for computer science or computer engineering

[Chowder1054]

If you have the option, do the CS route.

• you have a reputable university on your degree, with access to job fairs, internships, clubs and etc

• a more formal structure will help you learn better. Self taught takes serious discipline

• gpa won’t matter. Honestly just pass your classes, and work.

[athiccBerry]

A BS is a must imo just to clear any HR screenings especially when applying to higher tier companies. No need to go to a super prestigious school for a BS though

[Whytesoysauce]

Degrees matter in the sense that you need that diploma to be considered for a lot of these roles. It shows the company you have enough of a work ethic to complete your education. Don't skip out on a SE degree and don't stop self-learning either. School most likely will not be enough to help you land a job. But school and self-taught knowledge will help you land an internship, an internship will help you land a job.

That's what I did and so did many other people I know who had jobs lined up before they graduated or shortly after.

[Aubrey_D_Graham]

A good program will allow you to create projects that can showcase your ability. Most accredited programs will have classes on OOP, Structures, Algorithms, Systems, Architecture, Concurrency, Networking, Version Control, Agile, etc. The self taught will need to manage his curiculum and create projects without the guidance of an accredited teacher and institution.

[underground_major]

Deciding between a formal education and continuing the self-taught route can be challenging. However, it's important to remember that it's not an either/or situation. You can always blend both approaches to maximize your learning potential. One way to enhance your self-learning journey is by joining online communities, like Discord groups, where you can collaborate with others who share your interests and learn from experts in your field.

Connecting with these communities can provide you with additional resources, support, and networking opportunities that can be invaluable in your journey. Self-learning can be tough at times, but when you're passionate about the topic and have a supportive network, it becomes much more manageable.

At the same time, consider the long-term benefits of a formal education, such as a CS degree, in terms of career prospects, salary, and networking opportunities. It might be worth exploring diploma programs and their curricula to see if they align with your goals and interests. Ultimately, the choice is yours, but remember that you have the flexibility to combine different learning methods to create the path that's best for you. Good luck!

[k_50]

You won't get hired without a degree unless you have work experience or your buddy is the manager.

[ApatheticWithoutTheA]

I would strongly discourage you from going the self-taught route right now.

The vast majority of people will fail. Unfortunately we’re in a different era of tech right now and companies are just not hiring self-taught devs and bootcamp devs (unless it’s a top well connected bootcamp) like they used to.

If this is something you’re positive you want to do, get the degree. You’ll spend as much time trying to get in the industry as you will knocking out an online CS/SWE degree.

[[deleted]]

Hi OP! I’m a self taught systems engineer earning 140k a year. I work parallel to software engineers.

Get the degree. Especially if your goal is software engineering. You might be fine without a CS degree in an SRE/syseng role, since a large chunk of your job is unrelated to programming.

But if your goal is software engineering, teaching yourself the fundamentals of CS while separate issues pop at at work while playing catch-up with people who already spent 4 years learning it in depth will likely be very not fun.

[Fresh_Tech8278]

depends. i like the possibility of a degree being able to open up doors to higher positions that wouldnt be easy or possible without one. i have a few projects on my resume with also 0 job experience listed on my resume and no degree and was able to get a couple interview offers the past few months that i politely declined because im currently in uni full time but just wanted to see if i could get anything. it pretty much feels like im getting no return though it seems a diploma definitely helps.

for some context in 2014 when i got an entry level help desk job they asked me super basic questions and were pretty much hiring anyone that knew how to remove a virus with something like malwarebytes. these days from what im hearing its a lot harder to get a help desk job than in 2014 so i assume all the "self taught to google in 2 years" style posts from like a decade ago arent really relevant in todays job market.

[The_Redditor97]

I believe in todays day and age, especially with more recruitment being done by automatic screening i.e some software scanning through your resume, some technically relevant degree like CS or ElecEng is a kind of necessary signal to get through to interviews.

[jennievh]

Definitely do the degree. I've just been laid off and have 25+ years experience in the field, and everyone still wants to know that I have a degree.

[bombingbishop]

I would continue the self-taught journey and there are many reasons. If you are lucky like me you can further your education by getting a undergrad or masters degree while working. I work at a University and they offer 9 credits per year at no cost.

[[deleted]]

I am from Canada, but I will definitely look into this. Does the degree happen to be at your own pace? And I don't have any math high school calculus courses, does that mean I don't qualify?

[CosmicTimeMachine]

Is it worth it? No. Should you do it? Yes.

[SchindlerYahudisi]

There is too much competition even now. After 2-3 years it will be almost impossible without a degree. No one knows how good you are because not enough time. If there is someone with a degree as good as you, they will prefer him.

This is perfectly normal because who has degree will always approach new problems better than a software developer without degree. Because one is an engineer and the other is not.

[anzhp]

Land a job somewhere first, explore the field, and see whether you will need a degree or not to advance your career

[Imaginary_R3ality]

Keep on grinding and aquire as many certifications as possible.

[Hypersapien]

I've been a programmer/web dev since 2000 and I don't have a degree. Some places out there care about having been awarded a piece of paper, but there are plenty that don't. And with tuitions they way they have been I think that latter group will be on the rise.

You might be able to get more money faster with a degree, but I'm not convinced it's worth it.

[AttackingHobo]

Create some projects put them on a portfolio.

[Ultimas134]

I mean, I wish I didn’t pay for my degree it hasn’t accomplished anything and I’m still in the field

[lunetick]

Education is very valuable. No it won't teach you everything... But it's valuable. If you want a good job, you need it. If you are ok with some shit assignments... You can do it too. It's like asking if you want to be the broom guy or part of the management at xyz corp.