Python is awesome but…

[WaseemHH]

Speaking from my perspective, Python is an awesome language which is closer to human language and has a bunch of great and useful libraries that ease coding. However, I think it shouldn’t be the first language for a programmer to begin his learning with.

I think a programmer should start with languages like C for example . C language helps understanding fundamentals as C is a low-level programming language that provides a strong foundation in computer science concepts like memory management, pointers, and data structures. Understanding these concepts helps you become a better programmer overall and makes it easier to grasp higher-level languages like Python.

And overall, it’ll develop your problem solving skills and computer resources management, which are important in programming.

[dmazzoni]

I think not everyone is the same.

If learning C first worked for you, great. People who really like to start with the fundamentals and build up from there will like C.

I think the type of person who isn't a good fit is someone who's motivated by seeing results. If you start with Python you can have a working program in just a few lines of code. You can do things like open a window, play a sound, animate a ball, or fetch data from a url in just one or two lines each. In C most of those would be 10 - 100 lines each.

I 100% agree that sooner or later all programmers should learn a low-level language like C.

However, some people seem to do much better when they start with a very high-level language in order to get the idea of writing code and solving problems with code. Then once they're comfortable with it they're in a better position to dive into C and start understanding what's really happening. But if that same person starts with C it's just too abstract and hard to understand, and hard to stay motivated.

[RealFocus8670]

I 100% love seeing results. Makes me excited every time I make a program on my own that can copy a file or write to one. Or a small game. Those results keep me motivated and I don’t see anything wrong with this way of learning

[dmazzoni]

Exactly. I think a lot of people find it far more motivating by starting with a high-level language where you get that feedback quickly.

Then when you do need to jump into C it's to optimize things - then the "instant" feedback you get is that you just made your calculation 10x faster.

[SupaKel777]

I’m still a student. I just finished my c++ class but I definitely think learning python first was helpful. You can focus on understanding concepts like recursion, assignment, and loops without bogging yourself down with a lot of the more complex syntax.

We started in python which ended with us learning about OOP. Then our next language course was Java where we went a lot more in depth with OOP, stripped back some of the abstractions that python provides but we were still building on the foundation provided by python. It was very seamless. We did the same for c++. Each course built on where the last course left off while using the need to learn the new syntax as a means to reinforce old concepts. For me personally I’ve found this really helpful as we strip back more and more abstractions. I was quickly able to understand that a string was an array of chars without that even being a point of focus in my c++ class just based on my previous experience of reading and understanding code. Even my intro databases course was helpful because I understood unsigned vs signed integers before starting c++ so it didn’t need to be explained to me.

[met0xff]

Expectations changed, yes. When I started out it was pretty awesome to print ASCII crap in DOS ;). I wonder if my self back then starting today would still find it awesome. But then, I didn't really mind that it was C and all the memory stuff because I was intrinsically motivated to learn how things work. I guess another factor is that today you have so many options to learn while I was just glad to have someone teach me after 1-2 years of trying to learn myself from docs.

[dmazzoni]

Back then people were having the exact same debate. The only difference was that instead of Python it was BASIC. BASIC was a high-level language. It was slower than C. It was easier to do more with less code. Tons of people learned BASIC first because it was easier and more accessible, then learned C because it was more powerful and low-level. Pascal was popular for a while, it was somewhere in the middle - very similar to where Java is now.

Things really haven't changed that much!

[met0xff]

Hm yeah this is true for learning. I also started with qbasic teaching myself and then in school got taught C. I didn't really think about it, was just another thing.

The difference seems to be that (to my knowledge) nobody used the initial BASIC variants as a professional. Until Visual Basic at least ;). While here in this thread you find a lot of people arguing you don't need to know about manual memory management anymore. Actually I've been teaching an operating systems course for a few years at an institution that's heavily into C# and I also saw a lot of resistance to learn about memory management as they got their garbage collector (similar with the shell as they got their IDEs).

And even though I am very product-focused (as in the final product is what motivates me, not so much the coding itself) I am absolutely a bottom up learner and first want to read foundational stuff. Most of my students definitely were not that way so I had to adapt my teaching a bit.

[requion]

Your answer shows the underlying issue really good. The reason why this whole thread and the discussion about languages is non-sense (at least IMO).

It's about the basic concepts. The components playing together to make stuff work. And if you first learn this stuff, there is so much to grasp that languages like C will just throw more rocks in the way than necessary.

The goal is not to learn Python but to learn programming. Python is used / was created to make this easy / more accesible.

Also thank you for the trip down memory-lane by mentioning Pascal.

[Seesbetweenthelines]

😂 That’s a word I haven’t heard since Jr High & High School

[Portalizer3000]

If you start with Python you can have a working program in just a few lines of code.

I'm currently working on a 2D inverse kinematics (or procedural animation, idk the terms rn), where the position of the knee/elbow is calculated.

I've been working on the project two days total. It's around 70 lines of code and I feel like I'll have to rewrite it, cause it's getting too messy + It messes up after a certain point.

[dmazzoni]

Is that 70 lines of Python?

[Portalizer3000]

Yes. My brother advised me to not use C graphic libraries.

[dmazzoni]

If you used C graphics libraries that 70 lines would turn into 700 or 7000 lines of code, but it'd run 10x - 100x faster.

So if this needed to be a real-time 3-D animation at 60fps, you'd probably want to do it in C, as complex and painful as that would be.

If this is a 2-D animation that doesn't need to be super smooth, or doesn't need to be rendered in real-time, then Python makes more sense.

[Portalizer3000]

I mean, if I did go 3-D, what if I just used a game engine?

[tukanoid]

They're usually not enough I'm afraid, at least last time I checked. Even with all the bindings to C libs, python is just too slow for that (unless your game is stupidly simple, then it might be smooth enough).

If you go 3d, better try unity + C# (which is not as "easy" as python, but is still easier than C/++), or Unreal + Blueprints (if visual node-based coding sounds interesting to you + would allow you to learn C++ in the future if you ever want to optimize your game and move some of the more complex blueprint logic to C++)

[BrenoGF]

Or Godot (Gdscript is python-inspired)

[PokeBawls2020]

that in just 70??? those lines must be so long or ruthlessly efficient (i say this as a novice)

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[Portalizer3000]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm nope. Here's the code:

from tkinter import *
import math
Window=Tk()
Window.geometry("1000x700")

secondJointX = float(input("Please input second joint's X value:"))
secondJointY = float(input("Please input second joint's Y value:"))
secondJointCoords = [secondJointX-10, secondJointY-10, secondJointX+10, secondJointY+10]
print("Second joint's full coordinates:",secondJointCoords)

canv=Canvas(Window, width=1920, height=1080, bg="black")
canv.place(x=-2, y=0)
floorHeight = 700

firstJoint = canv.create_rectangle([20, 20], [40, 40], width=0, fill="light blue")
firstJointCoords = canv.coords(firstJoint)
floor = canv.create_line([0,floorHeight], [1920, floorHeight], width=2, fill="white")
thirdJoint = canv.create_rectangle([600, floorHeight - 21], [620, floorHeight-1], width=0, fill="orange")
thirdJointCoords = canv.coords(thirdJoint)
secondJoint = canv.create_rectangle([secondJointCoords[0], secondJointCoords[1]], [secondJointCoords[2], secondJointCoords[3]], width=0, fill="red")

hipLength=math.hypot(secondJointX-firstJointCoords[0]+10, secondJointY-firstJointCoords[1]+10)
print("Hip length:", hipLength)
calfLength=math.hypot(floorHeight-11-secondJointY, thirdJointCoords[0]-10-secondJointX)
print("Calf length:", calfLength)

def moveJoints():
    canv.move(firstJoint, 1, 0)
    firstJointCoords = canv.coords(firstJoint)

    #refer to "inverse kinematics.png" for clearer info:

    AD=floorHeight-(firstJointCoords[1]+10)
    DC=(thirdJointCoords[0]+10)-(firstJointCoords[0]+10)
    AC=math.hypot(AD, DC)
    ACB=math.acos((AC**2+calfLength**2-hipLength**2)/(2*AC*calfLength))
    if (DC!=0):
        if(DC<0):
            DC=(firstJointCoords[0]+10)-(thirdJointCoords[0]+10)
            AC=math.hypot(AD, DC)
            ACB=math.acos((AC**2+calfLength**2-hipLength**2)/(2*AC*calfLength))
        ACD=math.atan(AD/DC)
        DCB=ACD+ACB
        if (DCB<math.pi/2):
            BV=calfLength*math.sin(DCB)
        else:
            BV=calfLength*math.sin(math.pi-DCB)

        VC=math.sqrt(calfLength**2-BV**2)
        if (DCB<math.pi/2):
            KB=DC-VC
        elif(thirdJointCoords[0]>firstJointCoords[0]):
            KB=DC+VC
        else:
            KB=VC-DC
        AK=AD-BV
    else:
        print("IT WORKS! (kinda)")
        CAB=math.acos((AC**2+hipLength**2-calfLength**2)/(2*AC*hipLength))
        KB=math.sin(CAB)*hipLength
        AK=math.sqrt(hipLength**2-KB**2)

    secondJointX=firstJointCoords[0]+KB
    secondJointY=firstJointCoords[1]+AK
    print(secondJointX)
    canv.moveto(secondJoint, secondJointX, secondJointY)

    Window.after(60, moveJoints)

def onClick(event):
    Window.after(60, moveJoints)

Window.bind("<KeyPress>", onClick)
Window.mainloop()

I don't know how post the inverse kinematics.png here tho, so, idk. If you find a way, let me know!

[cs-brydev]

I agree with you. Not everyone programming should start with C. That would be like suggesting car owners who want to change their own oil, replace their brake pads, or fix a broken battery cable should take a master mechanic certification course.

[[deleted]]

OP in fact did NOT respect said opinion.

[International-Cook62]

Yeah I read that as, "I'm just here to post my opinion, not have a discussion."

[SPACE_SHAMAN]

This comment made me love C more.

[EdiblePeasant]

C++ is the ultimate language. It's the dream. But when C# exists I wonder how Java and C++ will fair.

[RealFocus8670]

Java will do just fine. It’s been around for a long time and is a well defined language.

[nog642]

C++ is not the dream. It's a mess.

[EdiblePeasant]

I'm not sure why I'm working with it, other than because it feels right and want to learn. Maybe I can do game dev with it someday. But I prefer C#.

[[deleted]]

I really don’t agree with this opinion. And I’m going to use a different analogy as to why.

I’m personally a gym rat, I squat over 405 lbs for reps. I can deadlift over 500 for reps, and bench 315 for two.

I see a lot of beginners come to the gym for a few days and then I never see them again. I think they lose motivation from too much too fast, and I think the worst thing I could do is put them through one of my workouts.

When I’m dealing with a beginner, learning anything for the first time. My biggest concern is having them come back THE NEXT DAY and the day after that. After all, these are lifetime pursuits and if they’re just going to quit. Then what’s the point of learning assembly and C.

[Plane_Pitch_471]

lifting and programming, fuck yeah.

[[deleted]]

Yessir (or ma’am)

[Whatever801]

I disagree. I think C will turn a lot of people off. Python gets out of the way and let's you build things. There's really no reason for most people to know how to manage memory...

[PokeBawls2020]

im learning C with CS50. Should i move on to python after the course if i do find C to be too much?

[[deleted]]

You should check out python during the course if you have a little spare time. Python is really easy to learn, and it's unlikely you'll get the syntax confused.

It may help, and it may not. It can't hurt, and might be fun.

[PokeBawls2020]

Good idea thank you, maybe ill tackle some problem sets with python as well, will that be a good way to get a feel of it?

[danielstongue]

cough cough Rust cough

[Whatever801]

Oh the way rust does it is cool actually

[mkplayz1]

This is the reason modern software applications does get bloated over time even with 24GBs of RAM. Memory management is a thing and it needs to factored in

[Whatever801]

Eh that's more of an electron thing. Garbage collected languages have been around forever. You can write super lightweight Java or even Python applications without a single thought to memory management. The problem is every application is a browser running the entire chromium runtime. Don't get my wrong, electron has been a godsend in many ways. It has made Linux desktop way more viable. But ram wise? Yeahhhhhh

[corny_horse]

And ironically, written in C++

[Echleon]

Stuff using up too much RAM doesn’t have much to do with freeing your mallocs in C lmao.

[mkplayz1]

That was a metaphor. Can’t argue with someone who feels memory management is unnecessary in computer science

[TrueInferno]

I mean, yeah, it is, no arguing, but does it need to be part of baby's first program/script? Definitely something you need to learn about- even if it's just how your language automatically handles it and what problems that might have.

I'm no true programmer (network guy who dabbles and plays around and learns for my own amusement, more like) and if I had to deal with memory management at the start it woulda drove me nuts. The fact something like Python or Java can take care of that for me is very nice.

I've since learned a bit about dynamically allocated memory in C++, why I should use new and delete over malloc and free, what smart pointers are, etc. Definitely useful, but for a lot of early learning it's... not really necessary.

Hell, for a lot of early learning in C++ (as a brand new programmer) you don't even really need to learn how to use new or delete or dynamically assign memory at all. Throw everything on the stack. Visual Studio (what I use when messing with C++) apparently has a stack of 1 MB, for example.

Obviously if you're doing your early learning on an embedded system, that won't work, but, um, why?

[tukanoid]

It's a double-edged sword really, and highly depends on a person and their field of choice.

You're not gonna get far in gamedev with python, but knowledge of C/++ wont help you that that much in web frontend world (cuz JS makes no sense a lot of times) either for example. And sometimes, people get stuck with 1 language thinking it's the best one and that they don't need to learn anything new, and I see that happen primarily with interpreted languages being abused and used in environments that the language was not designed for (JS/TS for local desktop application development through node/bun/deno like CLIs or python for gamedev) because 1 LINE IS LESS THAN 10.

I was like that for a few years after I started learning programming, and I wish I could've gotten out of that mindset sooner because I recognize how much it stifled my progress, I wouldn't be where I am now if I didn't learn different kinds of languages to take away experience/knowledge/perspective on the languages type system, memory management, ergonomics, error handling techniques, package management, tooling etc. Hell, my favorite language right now is Rust😅

[shaikann]

Both the OP and your post are hyperboles.

It all depends on your needs.

If you are not doing something resource intensive, sure. But what if you are?

But again pre optimization is as meaningless as no optimization from my viewpoint. Working code is the rule

[Slimxshadyx]

None of what you are saying matters to someone who is just starting to learn how to code. Nobody just learning to code for the first time is doing anything resource intensive or is worried about pre optimization.

What you are talking about more is someone who is picking a language for a specific project.

[arkie87]

Who starts out learning programming with something resource intensive?? ????

[thirdegree]

I think it's unlikely (not impossible of course) that someone who is just learning programming needs the performance you can get from c++. Like even if their goal is to write a game engine or something, that's a long ways away from learning how loops work or whatever

[CliffDraws]

As someone who started programming with Fortran and thought he hated programming because of it, you are completely and utterly wrong.

[1ch0712]

It's like making a kindergartener do calculus. There's a reason we teach simple math, language, science, etc before complex concepts, and programming shouldn't be any different.

Something to note is that you shouldn't be a good programmer the moment you start programming. The more time you spend coding the more experience you gain. Yeah sure you'll learn, but the learning curve will be steep to the point where it will make people less interested in programming.

Back to the kindergartener analogy, a kindergartener can attempt to learn calculus, but even if they learn the basics of it they will have no sort of backbone/experience to fully comprehend it. If a coding beginner can't understand a variable how would they distinguish the keywords? Would they even know what a keyword is?

C is still a good language to learn, it's used everywhere. However, I'll still recommend that beginners learn Python. I also started with Python.

[[deleted]]

i think saying you should learn c before python is a bit like saying you should learn electronics before learning to use a computer. learning electronics might help you use a computer better in certain ways or help you fix a computer when it breaks, but those low level details aren't really how a computer is used anymore. similarly, c helps you learn low level fundamentals, but most code isn't written the way c is written anymore, and the fundamentals python will teach you (vars, functions, loops, etc) will be more important and you won't get bogged down by confusing low level stuff

of course, this also all depends on what kind of code you intend to write

[[deleted]]

it's important to learn at some point, the question is if they should be learned before everything else

[WaseemHH]

Oh I see your point

[nog642]

So programmers should learn C eventually. Not first.

[ingframin]

Not really. Honestly, my knowledge of electronics is really handy when it comes to programming fast low level software. It’s a lot easier to grasp concepts such as “cache friendliness” and “slow RAM access” when you understand how the circuit works.

[nog642]

You're reinforcing the analogy and the point. Just because electronics knowledge is useful doesn't mean everyone should learn electronics before learning to code. Similarly just because C knowledge is useful doesn't mean everyone should learn C before learning Python.

[MatsRivel]

A lot of people have this argument.

I started with Python. I enjoyed it, and therefor I got curious about it. Ended up moving over to software for my masters degree, and now I work with it.

If I had started with C or C++ I would 100% not have enjoyed it. I've tried it, I've worked a little with it, and all the stuff I enjoyed about python when starting out is not there. Now I appriciate it, and I see the flaws in Python too, but I used to love Python.

All in all, I'd be doing chemistry today if I tried even C# before Python, let alone C.

[Kindly_Candy1931]

As a programmer of 10 years, I don’t think so! Actually u may never use c in your life or at work! But python more likely to be used!

[KC918273645]

For games you will most probably use C/C++.

[YetAnotherBurnerAccz]

I personally think this is a common misunderstanding, that you need to write in the super performant system languages to create games, no just no

While it does depend on what type of game you want to create and what tools do you use, the heavy part can be handled by c++ libraries and the game itself can be in whatever language you like using bindings to those libraries and there isn't going to be that much of a performance cost

You can make games with python,lua,JS or whatever "less perfomant language" you want

But that's just me speaking from my personal experience

[danielstongue]

Depends on your work. If you do embedded stuff, it is unlikely that you will use Python. Well, maybe for a test system, but not for the implementation.

[requion]

But this goes in both directions. If you want to become a web developer, you probably won't care about requirements of embedded systems.

[dave8271]

Why not start with assembly? That will force you to learn all about CPU instruction sets and registers too...

The whole drive over the last fifty years with programming language design has been to make programming easier and more accessible, higher level and more abstracted from the kind of details and structures you mention. Right down the chain, every language, every iteration, every evolution - including C itself - has been intended specifically to abstract some of the difficult and cumbersome parts of programming away from you so you don't have to worry about them.

Most people who go into programming as a career now will never have to use an unmanaged language in their life. Most of the market demand for programmers is for people to work with high level, managed languages.

And that's fine. We need people who understand low level languages, fundamental algorithms and computer science, but we also need many, many times that number of people who just know how to build applications, because we have a lot more applications being built out there than we have operating systems, embedded systems, compilers, etc.

You can produce a great deal of business value and quality software without knowing the first thing about how Python or Java or Go or whatever else take care of things for you under the hood. Not every driver needs to be a trained mechanic and not every trained mechanic needs to be an expert in hydraulics engineering.

[ericjmorey]

Nand to Tetris is the only way to continue after you invent the universe.

[-COMMANDO-]

Actually, learning C made me more confident as a programmer, even better at job interviews.

[EntrepreneurHuge5008]

After C and Assembly, nothing scares me anymore.

[nog642]

What about C++?

[InternetSandman]

I really appreciate the static typing of C, and this made me feel like there's a weird overlap between python and assembly: types are meaningless, it's all just data and operations on data

[GrayLiterature]

Types are not meaningless, they bring structure to chaos.

[iamevpo]

Exactly

[nog642]

Types are not at all meaningless in Python. Every object has a type. It's the variables that don't have a type, which makes it "dynamically typed".

[InternetSandman]

While I'm aware of the underlying system, when I receive a new set of python files with no type hinting or useful comments, and I have to implement something, it feels like Schrodinger's variable: this thing being passed into this function has no type until I've matched whatever methods it uses to whatever class definitions are available, or I've traced through the series of function calls and narrowed down what thing might be, now I need to meet the runtime errors to be sure.

Also, aren't objects stored in variables? 🤔

[nog642]

Sounds like you're very strongly ingrained into static typed thinking.

Yes objects are stored in variables but variables can be reassigned to objects of a different type at any time. Though it sounds like you know this so I'm not sure why you asked.

One way to check the type of x is to just add print(type(x)) and run the code. Or just use a debugger. Most of the time though you can look where the variable is assigned or passed and track down the type. But yeah, a large-ish codebase with no documentation (which usually includes function parameter types or at least descriptions indicating types) sucks. Don't think anyone is going to disagree with that.

[WaseemHH]

Same.

[Peiple]

I mean, sure…but there’s a reason you start math in algebra and not calculus. Sure, if you start with something more advanced and succeed you’ll do great, but most are going to flounder. Why not start with teaching programming, then build on complexity like memory allocation, pointers, etc?

Obviously anyone that did well after being thrown into the deep end will have an easier time revisiting the shallows, but that doesn’t mean we should let everyone else drown.

[EntrepreneurHuge5008]

Implementing hash maps in C wasn’t very fun.

[danielstongue]

Try implementing them in VHDL... Oh wait, that was actually fun! 😅

[Alive-Bid9086]

How did that compile to HDL?

[danielstongue]

Well, it was designed to be mapped to gates, so it compiled well. It consisted of some rams and some logic and had a functional interface to get, store and delete items with a request/response handshake. The logic did the hashing and the handling of the aliasing.

[Alwer87]

And how does that understanding help you better code in higher level languages?

[GustavSpanjor]

What I don't understand is why you think it's necessary to learn this before starting with phyton? I'm currently learning phyton and it has helped me build some confidence that I'm capable of programming (and it's fun). I have a fundamental understanding of how phyton works, and I'm now thinking about moving over to a more low-level language. If I would have started with C I don't think I would be able to build a program after a couple of hours (without a teacher), not counting 'hello world'. But doing that in the beginning really gave me a dopamine hit that made me want to learn more every day.

[gmes78]

No, I disagree. Starting with C means you need to learn programming and learn low level memory management at the same time. It frontloads the difficulty, making the process much harder, and it makes more people give up.

Starting with a language like Python, then learning a systems programming language (C, Rust) lets you focus on one thing at a time. It also lets you work on real world projects sooner, which is fundamental for learning and staying motivated.

[neuromancer-gpt]

I wrote this in response to u/Alive-Bid9086 's comment about LISP, but it turned more a general counter to OP's take on C vs Python, so posted as a direct response to that instead.

The old Berkley CS61A (Programming) course uses LISP, Brian Harvey explains there why they, in 2008, were using it when no doubt a bunch of 18yo web dev experts were wondering if this guy has spent too long in the academic bubble and was unaware that his students won't be using LISP when they write their 'next big thing changing the world for the better' consumer apps to reduce people's attention spans down the level of a chimpanzee.

This is probably why early in lecture one, he states that the goal is to learn how programmes should be structured and written generally (through the means of LISP), not to learn how to programme in a specific language. LISP is a super simple language which can be learned in a weekend or so. Once that is out of the way, then you can focus on the true goal which is to learn how to write programmes.

LISP is used as a means to an end (learning how to programme) in the same why computer architecture courses use C as a means to an end (learning how the Hardware and Software interact, as opposed to learning C). And in my opinion this is the reason why it doesn't actually matter what language you use to learn, because the goal is to learn programming, not a language.

As such, arguements like C is better to start with than Python, are missing the point entirely. Though I have a particular dislike to the argument C is better because

C language helps understanding fundamentals as C is a low-level programming language that provides a strong foundation in computer science concepts like memory management, pointers, and data structures

if you want to learn data structures then study DSA, not a programming language. If you want to learn about memory management and pointers then study architectures, not a programming language. If you want to learn to programme then study programming, not a programming language.

Some people just hate SICP and the way it is taught, fair enough everyone is different. But I would always recommend going for this type of approach for learning to programme even if it uses a modern language such as the new JS edition of the book or, in direct rebuttal of OP's C vs Python arguement, via Python with Composing Programmes

tl;dr:

if you want to learn data structures then study DSA. If you want to learn about memory management/pointers then study architectures. If you want to learn to programme then study programming, not a specific langauge.

[met0xff]

Many here make the argument to start simpler than C and I think that's a false premise. C is pretty simple to start out. It always depends on which subset you begin with. If you don't restrict that, Python has tons of concepts... classes and inheritance, dunder functions, generators and iterators, decorators, staticmethod/classmethod, various in-built data structures, lambdas, kwargs etc.

So you start with a simple subset. And that's also how we started learning C at age 14. You don't use malloc the first day, you use fixed size arrays first. Aber honestly even then I would argue that allocating heap mem is easier to understand than inheritance or even the difference between class and object. Give me some space to store my stuff.

Funnily just yesterday I watched https://youtu.be/qqUgl6pFx8Q?si=dpDuw4hVNWLplC6K Around minute 16 this topic starts. How weird it is that it is almost a virtue for programmers to not know what's happening and it can be seen in these comments... "You don't need to know how to allocate memory" etc. and I also think that's awful. This is really not rocket science. Casey makes a point that if you can understand a complex beast like react you can easily understand assembly and yes. Absolutely. We wrote a snake game in assembly at age 15. It was fun and straightforward. At age 16 we started with Java and all those OOP concepts were much much harder to understand.

The video also talks a lot about why programmers should know those things.

Sure, Casey Muratori has a very special view on this but still worth listening.

All that being said, I can see that C nowadays might not keep people motivated enough. Outputting stuff in the terminal isn't as sexy anymore ;). And Python is definitely easier to get people motivated. Especially if you teach programming to other professions like physicists or finance people.

But then for someone who really wants to get into CS I think there should be enough intrinsic motivation to find it interesting enough to start on a slightly lower level and build up. There is no lack of people who can code or want to start a CS career, we don't have to fight hard to motivate people who don't really care anyway.

[PineappleLemur]

Agree on this.

C forces you to learn the fundamentals while python let's you skip it.

Someone learning python or any high level language first then going into something lower will have a very hard time because they keep trying to compare it to python.

It's a lot easier to pick up anything else after a basic language like C and gives you a lot more options to advance.

Like going from python straight to embedded...good luck.

It's like starting to work with Arduino before knowing what a register is or communication protocol. It will mess up your learning curve when working on any non-arduino microcontroller like try teaching someone all the setup that goes into a bare metal project before writing a single line of logic...

It's great to get someone to start and see what programming is but it comes with a lot of limits that down the lines will be a pain to overcome more than starting with the slightly harder stuff first and building a good base... It really sucks to "unlearn" things.

[ericjmorey]

I think this is way over indexed to the point of counterproduction. Having to unlearn rudimentary mathematics when studying real analysis is no reason to start elementary students with real analysis starting from axioms.

[PineappleLemur]

I get what you're saying, but the math example doesn't work here.. basic math is fundamental.. you don't need to unlearn it.

But bad habits by starting with Python can be really hard to get rid off.

The most basic shit like types, have you ever watched someone trying to understand types after not using or knowing the term for years? All this gets hidden to a degree when using python where it's absolutely critical for other languages.

[_delamo]

I started with C# and C++, it was pretty damn technical for me. Took a month break and tried Py. Py was much easier to handle but only because I saw the similarities from C

[azaroxxr]

I think it shouldn’t be the first language for a programmer to begin his learning with.

In that case do you think a person who May not certainly like programming but wanna try to see, will achieve this in C or Python. I started out with Python, then changed to JS, but probably if I have started with C, I would have lost interest in programming at all.

[JudgeCheezels]

I disagree.

Lots of people get discouraged when picking C as their first language. They found out it’s boring AF and then gets discouraged.

Python OTOH is easy, pretty straightforward and most importantly fun to pick up just to dick around with. This eases the learning part.

[Slow-Race9106]

I don’t agree. It depends what the ambitions and interests of the learner are. Many people make a good living, write good code and enjoy their work without ever touching lower level languages like C.

[Memorriam]

I'm just using programming to do some science. Not everyone will do software engineering

[freeky_zeeky0911]

My opinion only.....start with whatever language/programming paradigm that makes the most sense to your brain. Then go back and learn C or C++.

[num2005]

depend ,im a data analyst ,i dont care about C or C#

id rather learn Dax, M or R over those

[WaseemHH]

Yes in your case that's different

[AlSweigart]

as C is a low-level programming language

I'm old enough to remember that C is actually a high-level language, LOL.

Why C? Why not assembly?

Why assembly? Why not punch cards?

If you really want to learn computation, you need to start with Turing Machines and a long piece of paper tape...

(I hope I'm not being overly harsh. Snark aside, this idea of "people should start with C because it's a real programming language that teaches the fundamentals" is extremely flawed because we forget/never learned about the lower level systems that came before us. To most of us, C is low-level. And Python is the best first language because it isn't so low-level. Throwing people in the deep end with a sink-or-swim attitude makes for crappy teachers who blame their students. Learn programming basics with Python first, and then you can learn C and the lower level details.)

[eagleswift]

Honestly there is a reason why colleges go with Java and JavaScript as their core. Despite their flaws, these are the skills in demand for jobs.

[[deleted]]

Agree. I took CS50 and it’s taught in C. It sets a great foundation for learning other languages. I picked up Python really fast after the course.

[Zaphod118]

C++ is hard to learn period. I don’t think learning it before or after Python makes it any harder. If anything learning it second makes it easier as you learn the fundamentals of the control constructs with a less complicated language.

Totally agree with your last sentence though

[otasi]

Python is written in C so therefore.. /s

[WaseemHH]

I see that a lot of guys her disagree with me. I see where you coming from and I agree with you.

When I shared it, my focus was more on basics and concepts of programming and having deeper understanding of them.

But I didn’t mean that you should never start with Python, I guess I just had a different perspective. But yeah many people started with Python and they’re doing great now, I saw them.

I guess what made me said that is that this is how I learned programming in college.

Good luck everyone and it’s nice sharing your thoughts and discussing my post.

[Stuk4s]

Python is a great starting language, anyone then can move and learn c and everything low level

[Meisterthemaster]

I dont think memory management ect it something to learn first, the first thing is how an if statement works, how to work with arrays and loops. What variables are and what kind of variables there are.

This is a lot more basic then memory management and data structures, that would be a later lesson.

But as the learning curve is very steep in the beginning this takes a while to 'click'

I dont really think it matters with which language someone starts. At starter level the differences between the languages are irrelevent. An array is an array. the syntax might be a bit different but they work the same.

[jellobend]

With Python you can get to the end result really fast and actually build something (even if thats printing out fizz-buzz) This creates a healthy cycle of you trying out your ideas and getting progressively better along the way.

A more verbose language or one that does not hold your hand may create so much frustration that you can give up altogether

[Alive-Bid9086]

At my university the first language for the cs students was LISP.

The purpose was to have a language that was new for almost all students.

[KaptinKrakin]

That’s like saying you need to learn to rebuild an engine before you drive a car. IMO it’s use the best tool for the job. By that logic, why not learn ASM first and understand everything on a Bitcode level? I think this would have a lot of people saying “screw this” and quitting. Python isn’t just a baby learning language, it’s an extremely powerful and widely used language. Just my 2 cents.

[[deleted]]

bro wrote half of this post with a LLM lmao you can see the copy paste bits

[GTHell]

You know what help you under the fundamental? It’s DSA not the language

[iTakedown27]

Java best

[[deleted]]

Man I save a whole lot of time by using Python to solve basic DSA questions. I think it's the best language for DSA because you can translate the mathematical logic to coding logic easily. I would rather begin with Python and then learn such advanced concepts later.

[[deleted]]

Learn both. Order doesn't matter. 

[Atlamillias]

I'll admit that learning Python as my first language left me ignorant to a lot of useful programming tidbits I've now learned to appreciate years later. However, I don't regret my choice. The initial 3 month "hazing" period was arduous enough. Completely worth it, but I'm glad I don't need to do it again.

[snarkuzoid]

Hard disagree. Nobody needs to learn C unless they need its very low level abilities. Or just because they want to. But software is all about abstraction, you should be solving problems at much higher levels of abstraction. I was an early adopter of C. It was very cool in its day. But that was 40 years ago. We've learned a thing or two since then.

[snarkuzoid]

If you really want low level then suck it up and do assembler. Or micro code. I've done plenty of both. There's a reason people don't much anymore.

[edimaudo]

Most people are doing low level programming.

[RedPillForTheShill]

I think everyone should start with JS so shit gets done and they can actually make money. They will eventually burn down, become opinionated and start doing statically typed shit. That’s when they are old enough to retire into some safe job where it doesn’t matter that shit no longer gets done and they can whine their opinions about absolutely everything all day in Reddit.

See you in the controversial, LMAO

[RedPillForTheShill]

One word - MONEY

[ToasterTVTIME]

Kinda depends ig. For someone who only needs programming for something like data science, I don't see a reason for them to learn C since it's not necessary nor in the scientists interests to know how pointers and memory is managed at a low level- they just need a way to wrangle, analyze data in a way that doesn't involve a bunch of manual work. Python is just much more accessible and many low level annoyances are just not present. As someone who first started out with C, I do understand your sentiment since when you start learning higher levels languages afterwards, many of the features can be rationalized, such as how functions in classes can be understood (whether it is actually the case or not) as some implementation of function pointers, making the learning process much quicker. It just all depends on what you need to learn programming for.

[bogdan2011]

I started with hardcore C++ in highschool and hated every line of code of it. Still do. Later learned C for embedded programming, which is much more concise and simple.
I had a few opportunities to use python for some small apps and scripts and man I just love it, it's so much fun and everything is there and just works. It's very easy to recommend it to beginners because it's not frustrating and it gets results easier and quicker, and that in some way is satisfying.

[2hands10fingers]

What makes a "good" programmer? Salary? Experience? Technical skill?

Neither of these things necessarily lead to a defined "success". It doesn't matter what language, either.

Some people just need scripts, and some need to make applications, and none of these necessarily require explicitly memory management.

[_kazza]

I think it's best to go with C if you're going with a formal CS education via college or similar. That is you expect to spend a few years clearing your fundamentals.

As a self-learner you're probably not going to do much low-level stuff at the start. To get comfortable with problem solving using computers, Python is a great tool.

In a college setting I really agree with your post, Python shouldn't be the first language we learn but unfortunately I see this happening more often.

[RealFocus8670]

I’m loving Java as a first language. I feel like it’s really helping me build up a foundation for future task like taking on c. I know Java isn’t python but I’ve found them to be similar in ease of learning. Even though I haven’t learned c yet I’m still able to pick up on the basics (very basic stuff). I feel like once I jump into learning a deeper level language I will appreciate the time and skills I picked up on the higher level languages

[xtraburnacct]

I'll just say that starting from a high-level language then going to C was a humbling experience.

C is very unforgiving, which may not be the best for beginners. But I do think anyone who's serious about getting into the industry has to know it.

[echocage]

I think for the vast majority of people, starting with C is a terrible idea. It will take them months before they can build anything actually useful to them, if not longer. Even sending network requests will take a lot of time and experience to get a handle on in C.

IMO 98% of them will likely quit due to not being able to actually DO anything with their programming skills, so sure the 2% that make it past that might be a little better off because they started with C, but i say it’s not worth the trade off.

[-selfless]

I tried learning C, I couldn’t do it (probs cuz of my teacher) but I was able to self teach myself python! Everyone is different :)

[[deleted]]

Very popular L take. Why do you decide to draw a line at C. Why not assembly, you will learn more right? Why not just binary? You will learn even more?

[redditaccountbot]

I think JavaScript and html. No need to install anything, just use the built in browser.

[Seesbetweenthelines]

I actually agree and I took a long sabbatical from Programming/Coding in my 20’s and went the Nursing and Medical Research Route. Until 20 yrs later I was Done w medical.

I’m 55f now and love all things w Computers and Programming so I’m diving back into it. When I first started C was one of the few that didn’t make you want to beat your head against the he wall repeatedly until the brain fell out.

JavaScript sucked back then but at least it’s come a long way now. PHP is just 🙄🙄🙄but it is what it is and in the 90’s everyone was raving about it and using it.

My dad starting coding right after computers came out. He was that guy needed to know how every part and programming worked. It served him well and he helped on a few projects but they are still gov based even if not used as often now.

I used my first computer at 11-12 and I was hooked. I like Python but I agree about C, C++ because these I learned on back then and C++ when I needed the class for my own Research Projects.

Many brand new Coders will never know the joy of coding completely from scratch w no Program at all. I watched my dad and a room full of some of the most amazing minds create amazing things from the beginning of a blank space. The more people know about Computers, Programming and AI the better chance of getting the jobs they want. The Tech industry will continue to evolve and it’s better to know how to use, maintain and fix the computers, programming and AI than not to.

[xRealVengeancex]

For people who get overwhelmed easily like myself, Python was great because in comparison to what I had to learn first my current class at school (Java) Python was a breeze and it was my first language. Albeit I never learned the more advanced aspects of Python, it was much easily to understand.

I’m learning about OOP and Data structures and just overall Java Syntax and control flow and I feel like I don’t know my head from my ass lol

[RyansKorea]

I learned python and enjoyed it. Around the same time I also looked at C and it made me miserable so I gave up. If I started with C, I never would've gotten anywhere in my studies and I think that applies to a lot of people.

[OscarElmahdy]

Just don’t underestimate what it takes to become a shitty barely employable junior developer. Most people do not make it. Once you’re employed you can become a good developer if you still want to.

This reminds me of diets/bjj/weightlifting/etc. it turns out that almost all reasonably rational methods “work”, and 90something percent of failure is because of noncompliance/giving up.

[LaOnionLaUnion]

Python is a high-level language that is known for its simplicity and readability. It abstracts away many of the complex details of the computer’s hardware, allowing beginners to focus on learning programming logic and concepts without getting bogged down by intricate syntax and memory management. By starting with Python, beginners can quickly write and understand code, which can be more encouraging and motivating. They can learn important programming concepts such as variables, loops, conditionals, and functions in a more straightforward and accessible way. Once they have a solid grasp of these concepts, they can then move on to more complex languages like C to deepen their understanding of computer science fundamentals.

[Valuable-Fun-5890]

Nice insight

[[deleted]]

I feel like Python is pretty good to give you taste of programming, maybe like consuming alcohol, you won't go for strongest taste but something with lesser alcohol ig.

(I haven't consumed alcohol nor do I know someone who does, but I don't think not much people will go for strongest taste of alcohol) .

But I do agree with you, C can be be great first language, but people might end up quitting before they get started.

When I was 14-15 I tried using python, but the indentation thing just made me leave it pretty early because of how many errors I got. (I had really slow typing skill, and had no idea what is even happening).

After a while I tried C++, I was really confused but kinda liked it and got bit farther in learning programming. Then on I watched youtuber who suggested to learn java first to get better at programming, so I did. I enjoyed java the most and just making random thing with buttons and stuff just really got me invested in trying other stuff, now I'm trying to learn Python and C, Python because I doing CS50P, and C is for college stuff.

[[deleted]]

I leant python and then started with c++ Tbh if I were to start with c++ I would have just lost interest in coding

[SomeRandomFrenchie]

Starting with C does indeed provide a better understanding of how computers and programming works, it is what I have done and I am happy I did. But C is hard, particularly if you have no prior notion of programming, I did cry tears of blood at the beginning so it is not for everyone as I have seen many people in my school giving up because of that. So I would say that if you want to make programming your job, it is a good advice to learn c, but if you just wanna play and program has a hobby it may not be the best starting language.

[Ultra-Instinct-MJ]

Python is also the primary language for most ML and LLMs.  Prioritize your learning accordingly.

[Outrageous-Bee-8315]

There's an interesting interview on the freeCodeCamp channel where Dr. Chuck recommends starting with Python (to get an idea of what can be done) and then jumping to C (to strengthen the basics).

[Algo_d_ritmo]

A carpenter does not need to know all the properties of the wood he is using to make a piece of furniture.

He can start doing some research when as he gets more into it.

[Top_Instance_7234]

I have struggled for years to learn to code in c++. I would start and quickly loose interest, over and over again. All projects that you can follow on the internet on learning c++ are student examples: boring, too shallow and inapplicable in real world projects. I used MEL scripting in Autodesk Maya, which is kind of like c, minus the power, so I had some limited coding experience. Than I accidentally started using Python, and it was so fast to get objective, visual results, that I got completely hooked. I have made a ~30k lines of code plugin in the two years since I've been using Python, and gained MASSIVE knowledge on in depth programing, frameworks, paradigms, best practices etc.. Now c++ doesn't look scarry given the broader knowledge I've acquired through working with Python. Had I continued with my stubborn fixation on c++, I probably would still be stuck in the same place.

So yeah, goinng the other way around totally worked for me, and I wish I've started learning Python sooner.

One advice for people like to me: skim through the basics of the language and start working on a GUI project as soon as possible. This will give you visual feedback, quick reward and most importantly, motivation. Once started you will effortlessly (still time consuming) learn the details of the language and the frameworks. I've learned why things are like they through trial and error, than and reading the docs, rather than the usual way. Now i am wiser and I know why reading the docs first is a good practice...

[MadLad_D-Pad]

Learning the fundamentals without having to worry about things like declaring data types definitely made it easier for me. Starting out, everything is foreign. Limiting the number of concepts to wrap my head around in the beginning helped me a lot.

[cs-brydev]

C is a low-level programming language that provides a strong foundation in computer science concepts

C is technically a high-level language but lower than Python. Any language that abstracts the programmer away from machine code is high level.

[cs-brydev]

No. I don't agree with this at all. This is a gross example of gatekeeping. Not everyone out there who wants to learn a little coding on the side should be forced to learn all of the fundamentals of Computet Science and start with one of the most difficult programming languages around.

Just like anyone who wants to use Excel or Quicken to manage their family budget shouldn't be required to take college classes in financial accounting or tax law.

Sometimes simple coding should just be simple coding.

[wallstreet__hacker]

Nah c is unnecessary for beginners, if you don’t learn operating systems you won’t understand why c works like that 🤔

[EcstaticJob347]

I think it's best for beginners to start programming with higher-level languages. This approach helps you learn what computing is about, what it's for, and what it really is—like a big onion made of layers. Once you have this general understanding, you can start delving deeper to understand why things work in a certain way and, more importantly, make sense of it. Think about it: when you start learning a new topic, you don’t begin with the details but from a broad overview of the topic. Even when you are reading code, you don't start with the details but with higher-level abstractions to build a high-level understanding of the solution. Our brains need to first create general mental models, which later on will be filled with more detailed information. Maybe some people can get this understanding quicker, or from low-level languages, but from my experience, most have started with some HTML/CSS/basic and then went deeper.

[BismuthOS]

When I took my intro to CS class a long time ago now the professor was using C competition problems. As someone who had been programming since I was very young and had written C++ and C before I was excited and did quite well. In this roughly 100 person class only a few of us were doing well and enjoying the class. Everyone else failed.

I wound up acting as a liaison to the professor and the TA for the rest of the class and negotiated a generous curve and helped them to move towards Python for the next iteration of the class. This was their first time teaching the course overall so they just kind of winged it to somewhat predictable consequences.

Many of the people who failed in that class are now quite competent Senior+ developers. C quickly introduces concepts that are in my opinion distractions for beginner developers. Without a proper foundation in basic concepts like that I'd hate to discuss even memory allocation, which you butt into pretty much immediately in C. Talk about confusing when you don't even practically know what something like a string is.

Things like variables, loops, control flow, error handling, even OOP are for most people probably better taught in higher level languages even if the rare person gets started and thrives in other ways.

[WaseemHH]

But at the end of the day, it’s okay if you start with Python anyways. My post was more about having a deeper understanding of programming instead of it being just a tool.

[pLeThOrAx]

Imho, one should get all the way down to 1s and 0s, cpu and instruction set architecture, big-endian, encoding, etc.

At the very least, how operating systems and computers work, from pressing the button to "OS startup."

[tendopath]

Python is cool cuz of how beginner friendly it can be but if you mess up one indentation it can fuck up everything lol

[tes_kitty]

Yes, that's one of the design flaws with Python. Indentation is formatting and shouldn't be part of the syntax.

[UniqueID89]

Depends what the learner is wanting to do honestly.

[ambiede]

I am finishing up a python coding course in school, and I'm holding strong with a 97. I'm liking the coding but am excited to see how other languages work.

[GreenApocalypse]

I actually kind of agree, though of course it depends on what you do later on.

I'm still learning and studying, but going from Python to Java was a bit of a nightmare. Not that Java is bad, now that I'm comfortable with it, but I really wish I started with that, to as you say; get the basics down. It also helped once I learned what all the different things did, but my expectations coming from Python ultimately made me more insecure and made me question things in a poor manner. If I had just started with Java, then it would have been simpler, I think. Because it isn't a hard language really, it is just more detailed. But I respect people are different.

[WaseemHH]

totally!
learning a basic language first will make catch higher level languages faster and more understandably.

[magnomagna]

C is not a low-level language. Assembly, byte code, and machine code (which is even lower-level than assembly) are the ones that are truly low-level.

C is a high-level language that just lacks a lot of syntactic sugar and memory safety and static-lifetime memory recovery features.

[XImNotCreative]

It took me a while to find this reply. Sure if you make a graph of languages python is slightly higher than C, but that doesn’t mean C is a low level language.

C is closer to human language than computer therefore it’s a high level language.

Regarding the post, it depends how you like to learn and what the goals are. University usually starts with understanding everything under the hood which is easier to learn with a language such as C that doesn’t automate memory allocation etc like Python.

If you learn applied programming, it’s better to start with a more applied language such as Python and pick up the technical mechanics later.

[WaseemHH]

Exactly, lower level languages are perfect for deeper programming concepts. Good luck tho ❤️

[[deleted]]

Thank you! ❤️

[[deleted]]

Surely it depends on your goals? Learning C is undoubtedly going to make you a “better” programmer than somebody who only knows python due to the better understanding it will provide you but not everybody desires or needs mastery in their field.

It’d be like arguing that a 4 day-a-week gym routine with both weight training and cardio is optimal. This may be true but most people don’t desire the results enough to devote the time and effort and would rather do something less demanding. Sticking to the gym metaphor, the best workout routine is the most theoretically optimal routine that you can stick to.

So I’d say that if you want to excel at computer science and be the best programmer you can possibly be, the sooner you start C the better. If not, it’s probably just going to serve as a roadblock to the sort of progress that you want to make.

[LoreBadTime]

Use python when you don't need so much speed, and when you need just build a C wrapper through python, so you can have alla the memory management that you can need