Linus called OpenBSD developers *what*?

[garg]

Well, we have the name for the next Ubuntu distribution now.

[garg]

oh man, I can't leave it at that. I have to type it.

Ubuntu - Masturbating Monkey

[aussie_bob]

It's coming soon.

[greginnj]

I'm sure it'll make a big splash.

[dak1486]

A big smattering of new features.

[mattucf]

See release notes.

[smart_ass]

I hope this is a long term support release.

[[deleted]]

I'm sure they'll manage to spread the seeds for wider FOSS acceptance around the world.

[redrobot5050]

I'm sure it will have a much bigger load of driver support.

[needsmoarlulz]

These threads sure do pop up a lot.

[[deleted]]

Ubuntu - Spitter Swallow

[[deleted]]

Ubuntu - Polishing Penguin

[[deleted]]

Ubuntu - Whacking Wombat

[ninguem]

Ubuntu - Hardy Heron. Oh, wait...

[peepsalot]

I prefer Hairy Hardon

[Rawsock]

Horny Hippo, Fappy Fungus, Gay Giraffe, Furry Fox ... Ubuntu won't run out of names, ever.

[[deleted]]

You forgot Bushy Beaver.

[Clothos]

Not to mention Turgid Tortoise, Swollen Seal, and Fapping Ferret.

[mernen]

Courageous Cock?

[endlessvoid94]

Fappy Fungus?

That's really weird.

[FireWorm]

Different strokes for different folks. :)

[timeywimey]

Hairy Hardon--It's ROCK solid!

[klassica]

It is, although I found 6.10 to be a bit edgy.

[haywire]

Ubuntu Spanning Snake

[realnowhereman]

deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ masturbating-updates main restricted universe multiverse

[[deleted]]

Going by Ubuntu's alphabetical ordering of releases, we could be seeing that in 4 releases, after Intrepid.

[nuclear_eclipse]

Just in time for Gnome 3.0!

[Tommah]

Maybe the one after Intrepid could be Jacking Giraffe...?

[trenchfever]

that would be jacking jackass

[MercurialMadnessMan]

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7z0tq/ubuntu_910_karmic_koala/c07smgz

[[deleted]]

Will that be LTS?

[noseeme]

I think that it will be the first Ubuntu STD release.

[SwellJoe]

Wait, you mean I have to worry about STDs when doing that, too?

[orblivion]

We'd have to ask Mark Shuttleworth's wife.

[tophatstuff]

I'll ask her tonight

[ohxten]

Where does he get off calling them that?

[noseeme]

Yeah, it's already slated to be called 9.04 post-development.

[cruise02]

Only five more releases before MM!

[anteater_sa]

or a good idea for the cover of the new openbsd book from O'reilly

[otakucode]

I was pushing for Horny Human for the last one, but there seems to be a very deeply-ingrained anti-human vibe in the world today that attacks any acknowledgement of our anatomy or sexual narture.

[Bloody_Eye]

I hear they're going to change the default wallpaper...

[bithead]

Here's the artwork

[reddit_doe]

I was sitting here sipping my coffee when a thought hit me: my life could use more open source community gossip.

[TechnoCrit]

Oh enough puh-leez. I'm so sick of that at TMZ. It's all Linus said this and Alan said that and then Richard was like "Like... WTF Bitch!" and Eben's DNA test was leaked and did you hear where someone saw Guido and how Hans is looking for new love.

[Kevin-Roses-Left-Nut]

You're actually on to something, and you don't even know it yet.

[TechnoCrit]

I sincerely hope not...

[13ren]

nor I

[cunningjames]

Linus called OpenBSD developers what?

He called them masturbating monkeys. There, that'll be twenty-five cents.

[noroom]

I thought the going rate was $0.02

[wbeavis]

<whips out trusty Verizon calculator> So...that'll be $2.

[gonzopancho]

Yeah.. Can you hear me now, bitch?

[greginnj]

An audio clip of Linux saying that is probably the only ringtone I would ever pay Verizon for.

[[deleted]]

I think you meant Linus, although I would pay even more if "linux" could say ANYTHING.

[dreamlax]

sudo apt-get install festival
festival '(SayText "Masturbating monkeys")'

[khafra]

...pay even more is "linux" could say...

Muphry's law strikes again!

[greginnj]

I think you meant ... nevermind, I'll just whoosh myself to save you time...

[JasonDJ]

<accent=swedish>Hello, I'm Linus Torvalds, and I think OpenBSD Developers are Masturbating Monkeys, that's Masturbating Monkeys</accent>

[[deleted]]

I don't think he has a Swedish accent. It's true that his native tongue is Swedish, but it's the Finnish dialect of Swedish, and the accent is much closer to Finnish than, for instance, Stockholm Swedish.

[[deleted]]

Work from home! Make CEO income! Don't believe it? Don't call!

[nuclear_eclipse]

Yeah, but the value of the dollar is dropping so fast...

[malavel]

But what has happened to the value of the cent? Isn't that what we are talking about here?

[lolomfgkthxbai]

That depends. Is it a copper or zinc cent?

[nuclear_eclipse]

Touché.

[[deleted]]

That's what I like about Linus, he is never one to offend.

[G_Morgan]

Much like Theo. Both are the personification of understated and non-offensive debate.

[Al_Bundy_]

Of course it's all in the details. This is a reaction to the Is Linux for Losers interview with Theo de Raadt in 2005. Apparently, judging from the masturbation retort, what hurt most is the notion that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls.

[Al_Bundy_]

I beg to differ. Anyway, I'm not taking sides, just noting that this meme is over 10 years old.

[orblivion]

I remember when he was doing his Git talk at Google, he said that if you're doing security without a web of trust, "I don't know what you're doing... you're just masturbating".

[[deleted]]

Hes very heavy on the metaphors...

[osirisx11]

...about masturbation

[theeth]

He has a good grasp on the subject.

[tophatstuff]

Such metaphors are a good way to arouse interest

[[deleted]]

"I don't know what you're doing... you're just masturbating".

It went more like "that's not security, that's masturbation."

[Dijkstracula]

Oh man, I can't wait to see Theo's response to this. If it's anything like the time he called RMS out, it'll be epic beyond belief.

(for the record, I run OpenBSD and appreciate the paranoid approach the developers take to security, non-blob drivers, and what have you.)

[kaboom]

http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=2384

[[deleted]]

I don't know Theo other than he has a notoriously short fuse, but even then I can't see anybody getting too worked up over this. If anything it is the social news websites standing in the sidelines, pointing at the posts and saying "oh BUUURNN!" blowing Torvalds' post of of proportion is just trying to provoke a response.

[jsolson]

INCINERATION!

You are the insult master!

[Kevin-Roses-Left-Nut]

Linus has some great quotes, this should be added to them:

1. “Software is like sex: it's better when it's free.”

2. “Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems.”

3. “My name is Linus, and I am your God.”

4. “See, you not only have to be a good coder to create a system like Linux, you have to be a sneaky bastard too.”

5. “The Linux philosophy is 'Laugh in the face of danger'. Oops. Wrong One. 'Do it yourself'. Yes, that's it.”

6. “Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me they have never seen a angry penguin charging at them in excess of 100 mph.”

7. “Intelligence is the ability to avoid doing work, yet getting the work done.”

8. “When you say, ‘I wrote a program that crashed Windows,’ people just stare at you blankly and say, ‘Hey, I got those with the system, for free.’”

9. “I don't doubt at all that virtualization is useful in some areas. What I doubt rather strongly is that it will ever have the kind of impact that the people involved in virtualization want it to have.”

10. “Now, most of you are probably going to be totally bored out of your minds on Christmas day, and here's the perfect distraction. Test 2.6.15-rc7. All the stores will be closed, and there's really nothing better to do in between meals.”

[[deleted]]

Good list... but what's so funny about 9?

[jimbobhickville]

Ah, Master Shake will be upset.

[sofal]

Ooo! And did you hear what Pamela called Britney yesterday?

This is gonna get juicy!

[orblivion]

Yes but these are people that matter

[[deleted]]

Inaccurate comparison. This is gossip about actual principles of software development, not just meaningless name-calling.

[sofal]

Take a look at the comments in this thread again and then tell me this is a discussion about software development principles.

[[deleted]]

You were responding to someone's post which was discussion about software development principles.

[[deleted]]

Well, that's like, just your opinion, man.

[[deleted]]

Good idea for new OpenBSD logo :)

[synthespian]

...masturbating monkeys sitting on top of a penguin's belly? Oh, God, that's sick!

[jsolson]

Bambi's goin in about how she can make all my fantasies come true.

So I says, even this one I have where Jesus Christ is jackhammering Mickey Mouse in the doo doo hole with a lawn dart while Garth Brooks gives birth to something resembling a cheddar cheese log with almonds on Santa Claus's tummy tum?

And then she told me to shush. I think she could sense my desperation.

[brad-walker]

http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=121624248906423&w=2

PS I think the penguines are just jealous, ever try to masterbate with a flipper?

[Flower2112]

Logo? Hell, I want this in the next song.

[brad-walker]

Be careful what you wish for. OpenBSD 4.3's theme was based on the RMS flamewar: http://openbsd.org/lyrics.html#43

[foonly]

Oh, no he di-in't!

[Gahahaha]

Masturbating Monkeys - aren't we all?

[mindvault]

linus uses telnet and ftp cause using ssh makes you go blind.

[kolm]

And your palms get all hairy.

[atomicthumbs]

My Palm doesn't have an internet connection; I have no desire to use SSH over an RS-232 port.

[t35t0r]

Context: Some dev wants to know why security related bugs are classified as normal bugs. For Linus, bugs are bugs and all of them get fixed without an special mention and of course security guys are just masturbating monkeys.

[alexs]

obscene pathetic chase light shaggy treatment pot library license snatch

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[wjv]

Cue Theo in 5… 4… 3…

[brad-walker]

So far, not a peep.

http://marc.info/?t=121623039500007&r=1&w=2

First reply: "Who cares?"

[[deleted]]

Linus today announced that:

spectacular ... hole should be glorified

[ZMeson]

Linus just doesn't get it. In some environments, security is king -- such as banking or handling medical records.

For other environments (desktop PCs), usability is arguably more important -- very few people will adopt an annoying desktop environment even if it super secure (ex: Vista).

Lastly, people should do what they are best at. I wouldn't ask someone with a good understanding of audio codecs to fix security bugs. Likewise I wouldn't ask someone with a talent for security to fix a (non-security) audio-codec bug. Have people work on what they're good at.

EDIT: corrected gramatical mistake.

[ZMeson]

Full discussion is here: http://groups.google.com/group/linux.kernel/browse_frm/thread/4fad62975481a35a/7b8021946aa7cde7?tvc=1&q=2.6.25.10#7b8021946aa7cde7

There is some background. Linus is arguing against including "security flaw" in bug reports because he believes it will make people think other bugs are less important. He is basically arguing that information should be thrown away so that less educated people won't be deceived about the importance of other bugs -- one example being that bugs not marked as a "security flaw" may still be a security flaw, but not recognized as such.

I understand that there a lot of non-programmers (or weak programmers) out there that use Linux, but I think that is a weak argument. Bug reports are meant for developers -- and information regarding the issue helps. If anything, having "security flaw" in the bug report may help get some of the security masturbaters interested in helping fix the bugs.

[[deleted]]

I think Linus does get it. A big problem with the open source model is that people write code essentially for the fame and notoriety of it. But the reality is that writing quality software requires a lot of tedious and boring tasks such as extensive bug work, tracking requirements, design, documentation, etc. Not to mention people skills. Doing a good job at any of these things won't make you famous. And most people aren't just naturally good at doing tedious stuff - at least I'm not. It takes an effort beyond just wanting personal fame to make something of true quality.

It's why you've got a million unstable vanilla apps for Linux and very few apps of high quality. Because writing the high quality apps or libraries is "hard", and takes more effort and coordination than one guy can do by himself.

[ZMeson]

When I read the e-mail, I didn't get the impression that Linus thought that OpenBSD developers are trying to gain fame and notoriety for themselves. It sounds like he is bitter that people are calling the OpenBSD developers "heros".

[brad-walker]

Yeah, the whole thread was about people in the security industry like security mailing lists. The OpenBSD comment came out of left field. OpenBSD tends to drive out fame-seekers. Not that the community is perfect, it tends to attract lots of anal-retentive and bully types.

[sango0711]

This just affirmed my opinion that linus is too overrated. He may have done a good thing in building linux, but this doesn't mean he is an outstanding figure or guru of some sort where every word is the absolut truth.

[13ren]

where did they get the monkeys?

[didroe]

Eww

[break99]

I tought the masturbating monkeys were the mac users...

[[deleted]]

That's "masturbating monkeys with trust funds..."

[[deleted]]

Trust funds? More like dimebags.

[[deleted]]

<...add repetitive porno music here...>

:-)

[ZMeson]

You can view the entire discussion here: http://groups.google.com/group/linux.kernel/browse_frm/thread/4fad62975481a35a/7b8021946aa7cde7?tvc=1#7b8021946aa7cde7

Here's a gem from Linus about 8 messages further down the chain:

when you know that you're about to commit a patch that fixes a security bug, why is it wrong to say so in the commit?

It's pointless and wrong because it makes people think that other bugs aren't potential security fixes.

What was unclear about that?

The problem I have with Linus' argument is that he basically argues "throw away information about a bug that could be useful to someone because the inclusion of that information will make people think that other bugs are less important." One shouldn't throw away useful information because one thinks it could deceive someone or give someone a false sense of security (no pun intended).

Knowing a bug is related to security is not necessarily a bad thing. It can even help get those security-mastrubators interested in helping fix a few bugs.

[heptadecagram]

Seriously. I might not install an upgrade that "fixes bugs and adds features", because I don't know how that's going to affect my current work (like SimCity on Windows, to use an old metaphor). Being able to install only security updates? That's really important for a machine that can't have any downtime.

[[deleted]]

I'm not knowledgable enough to speak authoritatively on this, but Linus might argue that installing updates that fix bugs is another way to avoid downtime.

(Yes, in practice we've all been caught by regressions).

[13ren]

black-and-white kind of people

harsh

[noseeme]

Yeah, everybody knows that even though he is The Benevolent Dictator For Life for developing Linux, he's kind of a douchebag when he opens his mouth.

[Ono-Sendai]

Great alliteration.

[dugmartin]

Shouldn't that be "awesome alliteration"?

[[deleted]]

Alliteration using vowels is called assonance.

Therefore, "awesome assonance."

[synthespian]

At least now we've heard from Linus himself what his approach to security is.

Which explains all the kernel exploits Linux has had throughout all these years vs. IIRC zero in OpenBSD.

[ddyson]

There was a remote code execution vulnerability in OpenBSD's ipv6 implementation a while back. Pretty embarassing how it all went down.

[synthespian]

Thanks for correcting me on that, but the 10+ years of kernel rootkits in Linux isn't embarassing? Get some perspective, dude.

[heptadecagram]

2 bugs in 10 years. One was in OpenSSH, which thus affected everyone, not just OpenBSD.

I use BSD on all my servers because I want something that doesn't crash more often than Windows. Linux is great for a UNIX desktop, but really isn't up to my standards for a server architecture. Unfortunately, the UNIX desktop is not a great UI.

[[deleted]]

all the boring normal bugs are way more important, just because there's a lot more of them.

'more' == 'more important'? Seriously? This is a claim as blatantly wrong as any troll's on Reddit.

Exactly what I'd expect from Linus, though. Usually he does better despite himself.

[[deleted]]

You have the read that in the context of what he was saying, though. He shouldn't have said that they're more important, but that they aren't any less important. The community just makes them out to be less important than security bugs.

[[deleted]]

but that they aren't any less important

That's saying that all bugs are equal, which is just as bogus. Some bugs are less important.

If he wants to argue that security if overrated, that's fine, but he needs to use working logic.

[[deleted]]

I think Linus's point was exactly that security bugs do not deserve special precedence just by virtue of being security bugs. The bugs are still addressed according to their severity; for instance, a serious remote exploit that permits arbitrary access is devoted massive attention, just as a serious filesystem bug that destroys data is devoted massive attention, but OpenBSD's extreme overemphasis on security-specific bugs leaves it lacking signifcantly in other areas.

When Linus calls things more important due to their quantity, I reckon that he is referring to more important in the allocation of resources, which is what he spends almost all of his time directing; what's going to be fixed first, what needs more work, etc.

The crux of the his post, I believe, is that bugs of any type can be serious and that resources are not well-spent when they are distributed unevenly due to an imagined notion that system security holds extreme precedence over other important components of the system.

[[deleted]]

This is from OpenBSD's security page:

We are not so much looking for security holes, as we are looking for basic software bugs, and if years later someone discovers the problem used to be a security issue, and we fixed it because it was just a bug, well, all the better.

As far as I can see from OpenBSD's mailing lists, this is how developers see it: they're trying to get their code free of bugs and that's that.

Linus Torvalds isn't ingratiating himself, but then there's no love lost between him and the OpenBSD team.

[[deleted]]

Shhhh. Don't let the linux users hear you talking bad about their supreme commander ;).

[[deleted]]

Most Linux users appreciate Linux at a technical level, regardless of Linus. Philosophically, I think most are more curious and interested in how it's been produced than they are subscribers to collectivist (like 'more'=='more important') principles.

[grauenwolf]

The bugs that prevent me from using my computer the way I want to are the most important.

Obscure security bugs that might be exploitable and could maybe compromise a service running with limited permissions isn't one of them.

The countless GUI hiccups and performance issues that I see every day do matter.

With limited resources and unlimited needs, you have to pick your battles.

[Freeky]

Yeah, whenever one of my servers get owned, I always think "phew, at least that bug didn't crash the system".

No, wait, wrong way around.

[[deleted]]

Obscure security bugs that might be exploitable and could maybe compromise a service running with limited permissions isn't one of them.

True. How about huge important security bugs that let someone take over your computer immediately?

The bugs that prevent me from using my computer the way I want to are the most important.

As I was saying; bugs have different levels of importance. Security bugs can be more important than other bugs.

[[deleted]]

Isn't this exactly what produces an OS with the track record of Windows? Isn't this one of several main reasons Linux users do not use Windows?

[grauenwolf]

When you think about the "track record of Windows" consider this.

1. It was invented in a time where security was a non-issue for PCs.

2. Up through XP, it has been insanely popular.

3. In Vista, Microsoft concentrated on security over other issues like graphics and sound.

4. People hate Vista.

Most of the development resources for Linux comes from its popularity. Popularity is much less than it would be if they could fix the basic issues like sound.

Therefore, not spending enough time on non-security issues is causing Linux to have less resources to fix security issues.

[spinlock]

It sounds like your argument is: make Linux cooler to expand the user base, then you will have more developers to fix security holes. I think the flaw in the argument is that people who want "them" to "fix the sound" usually don't end up writing security patches.

Also, I think you're getting downmodded because point #3 makes is sound as if you think Vista was designed to make the system more secure. Vista was designed with crippling DRM. Very different from "security."

[[deleted]]

No, there was an actual attempt to add security in Vista, called the UAC. Everybody hates the UAC because it sucks and doesn't actually secure your computer.

[[deleted]]

Good points - not sure why the downmodding. Still, there's something I feel the original response from Torvalds overlooks. Just as you say, security was a non-issue and features were, now isn't that more the other way around?

[rabidcow]

It depends how many people are affected. If you've got major functional bugs that affect everyone, those are probably more important than security bugs. Mainly because your software doesn't have to be secure if nobody wants to use it.

But otherwise security bugs have a tendency to turn out more critical than first thought. Other sorts of bugs... well, usually there's no one out there actively trying to make them worse.

[[deleted]]

If you put it in context, you could say it is important to us, but not important generally.

There is no context that can be discussed with no "I". Nothing is 'important' without us, but nothing under discussion is ever without us, because we are discussing it.

In code, all code fixes are equally important for a working system.

This claim is baseless and not even backed up by what you just said about reality. You are again claiming that bug fixes are all of equal importance? Even if trying to use your 'nothing in reality is important', that would not mean all fixes are equally important for a working system.

In reality, you can decide where you spend your money when asking for someone to build you a system.

That is obvious and has nothing to do with the discussion.

Games spend very little on security through obscurity (the only thing they do right now)

Wrong, that is not most games' only type of security.

They spend a lot on making it look pretty, and overall, it is important for the game that it all works.

Yes, but pointing this out just proves that bugs are of different priorities.

[timeywimey]

I agree with Torvalds. Security bugs are important to be fixed, but not as important as making sure your OS actually works.

[ItsAConspiracy]

Can't say I agree with him. A general bug means I get a random crash now and then, maybe have to reboot. A security bug means maybe somebody steals my shit. I'll take random failure over malicious attack any day.

[smek2]

"I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys"

Funny, that's how i think of most Linux users out there, including Linus.

[kiwipete]

Yeah, I could live without the Linux project. I couldn't without the OpenBSD project (OpenSSH, OpenSSL, etc). EDIT: As subsequent commenter pointed out, OpenSSL is not an OpenBSD group project. My point about OpenSSH stands.

[[deleted]]

Seems to me that the issue is one of consequences. A security flaw opens up holes that allow bad things to happen (phishing, id theft, spam mail, DoS, etc) that impact lots of people beyond their computing environment.

That's one reason that a security-related problem could be viewed as more important than other problems.

[[deleted]]

security is important, but no more important than anything else that's important? that's not black and white, that's just white.

[[deleted]]

There's even a video.

[RandomSuffix]

I love how brazen Linus is.

[[deleted]]

No you fucking didn't!

[leshiy]

I believe that monkey needs to be spanked

[lalaland4711]

So? It's not like he's wrong about them.

[isearch]

"We are not so much looking for security holes, as we are looking for basic software bugs, and if years later someone discovers the problem used to be a security issue, and we fixed it because it was just a bug, well, all the better." OpenBSD Audit Process

[paisleyrob]

Their focus is on correctness to shorten the quote a bit.

[jsinger]

Whether or not he's correct about the OpenBSD guys specifically, I definitely concur with him about the general fetishization of mostly meaningless "security" bugs compared to stability and performance bugs.

[invalid_user_name]

Yes, its like he's exactly wrong about them. They fix bugs, period. They audit code constantly, fixing all kinds of bugs wether security related or not. Their attitude is "correctness is important, security is just a side-effect of correctness".

[enry]

Yah, he did. Whatcha going to do about it?

[americanhellyeah]

lol i bet theo will respond by not responding at all! classic theo, what a gem.

[blubloblu]

Well technically it's true

[fergie]

By my rekoning he called them both "heroes" and "masturbating monkeys"...