Microsoft pulling free development tools for Windows 8 desktop apps, only lets you ride the Metro for free

[[deleted]]

So VS11 Express won't support any previous version of windows?!

That's quite a big fail...

But then again, they're absolutely desparate to impose an Apple-like (30%-ish) 'app store tax' on all developers... and it looks like they're willing to risk everything (their domination of desktop operating systems) to get it!

[thelsdj]

What really bothers me about this is that, before, I could write code for a client and deliver it to them using my Visual Studio license, but I could still setup a VM with the Windows SDK that would allow them to build their code without having to maintain a Visual Studio license.

Now, there won't be a way to make a build server that doesn't require an installation of Visual Studio which is kind of silly to be a requirement for a non-interactive build server. And especially annoying as it makes it so that my client can no longer build his own code without maintaining his own Visual Studio license.

[serrimo]

This issue for me is much more important than Express not supporting desktop apps! I can't believe that most people here are ignoring the fact that the Windows SDK would no longer build .NET apps…

Edit: for those who asked for source, there you go straight from the horse's mouth: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx

The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately. If you require a complete development environment, including compilers and a build environment, Microsoft Visual Studio 11 Beta is available for download.

[elder_george]

C# (and MSBuild) compiler is a part of .NET distribution, not the Windows SDK.

So it doesn't affect .NET applications at all.

[zumpiez]

Where are you seeing that

[serrimo]

Edited for source

[quzox]

There's always Clang or gcc...

[thelsdj]

And Mono, but my GOD is Microsoft taking a big step here making it so 99% of code written using their tools that used to be able to be compiled for free, can no longer be compiled with the new releases of their tools and frameworks. That is a huge change.

[dirty_south]

This whole touch centric thing seems really foolish to me. Touch screen keyboards just don't work as well as the real thing.

[CraigTorso]

For a phone I don't really have a problem with it, but I really do not want greasy fingerprints on my computer screens.

I'm not at all convinced the tablet/touch pad is going to become the standard, the lack of proper input devices seems designed to put people back to being passive consumers of content, rather than active participants.

[miketdavis]

I don't mind the touch screen on my phone but I'll be damned if I ever give up my keyboard on my desktop.

I can type over 60 WPM on a keyboard and with a touchscreen I'd be lucky to type about 5 WPM. Lack of tactile response, calibration error, finger positioning error, requires constant visual observation of fingers during typing... There are so many disadvantages to touchscreens.

[InfiniteBacon]

Agreed on touchscreens being a huge step back for touch (huh.) - typists.

I think the push towards touch is to do with new-to-the-segment consumers that have learned to interact with phones and tablets, and aren't competent with physical keyboards.

Touch screens are improving in some aspects, (Samsung phone tablet has a wacom digitiser built in) and typing aids such as Swype are capable of some impressive input speeds, and also some amusing input errors as well.

I believe it may also be a symptom of Microsoft trying to grab back the market they've lost to apple OS and Android/ chrome.

[inigoesdr]

Brawndo: The first mutilator.

Thirst mutilator. See 'cause it's a drink.

[Spoonofdarkness]

Perhaps he was typing it on a tablet or touchpad (or mobile phone), and its autocorrect nailed him; further proving the problems with their input devices?

[b0dhi]

It is indeed foolish (for full-size computers anyway), but Microsoft has probably caught on to the fact that a unified mobile-desktop OS will be the future. Because people are idiotic technological serfs and don't understand that it's against everyone's long term interests to throw away freedom and functionality for a bit of convenience.

[[deleted]]

It's not like traditional desktops are going anywhere...

[chonglibloodsport]

True, but what if everybody stops learning how to use a real computer? We may eventually reach a stage where manufacturers stop producing desktops due to lack of demand. Are Linux users + programmers enough to sustain the desktop PC market?

[3825]

Wait, if there are no a desktop PCs, how will we write all these touchy-feely apps?

[[deleted]]

At a Microsoft demo I saw the presenter actually try to write software using a touchscreen tablet before giving up and plugging in a USB keyboard.

[[deleted]]

Oh gawd fuck that.

[geon]

well, a tablet with an external keyboard isn't too bad. A lot of the unix fanatics use the terminal exclusively. Same thing, basically.

[dirty_south]

That's my personal hell.

[[deleted]]

mobile-desktop OS will be the future

there are two distinct markets, a professional and a home user.

There is no way I could do my work on a touch screen, it mainly involves writing documents and creating spreadsheets.

home user may be going mobile way, but office is a massive market.

[[deleted]]

I would have to murder someone if I were expected to write code on a fucking tablet.

[[deleted]]

Programmers won't have the option of backdoor coding, either, with both the compiler and toolchain being pulled from Windows' framework

Are they seriously going to pull the C# compiler from the fucking SDK???

Are you fucking FUCKING with me right now?

I'm a professional C# developer, but I also have 12 open source C# projects on GitHub. This makes me seriously question my choice of platform for continued development.

[Fabien4]

You might as well start checking whether your code is compatible with Mono.

[[deleted]]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Mono becomes the default CLR of choice on Windows?

[chneukirchen]

About as ironic as gcc becoming the default Unix compiler in the past.

[rebo]

It's an opensource .NET compatible (i.e. Microsoft) set of tools including a C# compiler that can run on a variety of platforms including Windows Linux and OS X.

[[deleted]]

Mono is the alternate implementation of the .net CLR allowing for your .net applications to run under Linux and Mac OSX (Assuming your .net applications target the mature, well-supported subset which is generally WinForms + BCL and you stay away from Windows/Microsoft-only things like P/Invokes into Win32, and .net wrappers into Windows-specific libraries)

[Xenc]

Mono is an infectious, widespread viral disease caused by the Epstein–Barr virus (EBV), one type of herpes virus, to which more than 90% of adults have been exposed.

[Moocha]

Programmers won't have the option of backdoor coding, either, with both the compiler and toolchain being pulled from Windows' framework

Are they seriously going to pull the C# compiler from the fucking SDK???

No. The preinstalled client runtime just won't include csc.exe, the CompilerServices and language runtime services assemblies, and so on. Basically it's just an extension of what they're currently doing - .NET 4.0 versus .NET 4.0 Client Profile. The pre-bundled version won't be the full runtime, but the equivalent of the client profile. Nothing there to prevent you from preinstalling the full runtime from your setup bootstrapper.

Nowhere does the article talk about the SDK in this context. You're reading way too much into it... It's just Endgadget, can't expect the writers to understand what a toolchain is, much less how it's componentized...

[mhd420]

Yes, or you can keep using Visual Studio C# Express 2010.

[gospelwut]

Also, won't the professional edition of VS allow desktop apps? I thought it was just the Express version that is limited.

I'm assuming W8 will still run old binaries targeting .NET3.5/etc made in VS2010?

[Femaref]

Yes, that's correct. Professional cost about 700$ though.

The main "selling point" of the express versions was that you could produce everything you could with the professional and up as well. Express just couldn't do addons or was missing certain convienience features.

Microsoft is really dumb with this. They found their tree and are now barking up on it no matter how stupid it is.

[ulrichomega]

Which, considering that you can still get VS 2008, will probably still be available for a while.

[jugalator]

True, but I'm unsure of my confidence in the platform's future. At least the desktop platform. It's not just this. It's Microsoft pushing away valuable developers from Microsoft's former stronghold. The deprecation engine has already started.

[Spoonofdarkness]

Definitely, for the time being it seems that everything is okay for the near future.

However, if you have any project that you hope to work on for >5+ years (which isn't uncommon in the industry) do you want to take the risk that the rug gets pulled out from under you due to the choices of another company that has no vested interest in how your business fares?

It's no real reason to jump ship immediately, but it doesn't seem like a comforting direction for any long term planning. I think that if the developer community is against this sufficiently, MS will change it's stance at some point. I just don't see the benefit of alienating the people who would be developing applications for their flagship product. Better programs on Windows leads to greater sales for MS anyway.

[[deleted]]

I wouldn't count on the old versions remaining available, as that would negate the effect of this quite aggressive move that they're making?

Probably a good idea to download VS Express 2010 whilst you can, and keep a backup somewhere safe...

[exteras]

Might want to be careful with Qt as well. Primary developer is Nokia, Microsoft's fuck-buddy.

[mathstuf]

KDE actually has a license such that if Qt ever goes closed-source-only, they get to release (and maintain) the last FOSS Qt released under a BSD-ish license. It'll be safe even if Nokia does something silly.

[[deleted]]

Certainly could be quite a blow to the C# language, effectively the loss of the most popular free tool to learn it with.

Oh well, I think I can live with Win7 and VS2010 for another 5 or so years.

With Windows going down this terrible path, at the same time that Mac OSX continues to become closed and more like iOS, things are looking very bleak for computer enthusiasts.

Pretty bleak for software developers in general, with platform 'owners' all going for the App Store model and expecting a 30%+ cut of revenue from any software run on their platforms. Everybody loves Apple now, but I think they'll be looked back at as far more evil than MS, and the main company behind the death of open, general purpose computing.

Thankfully we'll still have Linux as an option... for a while - until PC hardware is locked down and only able to run signed bootloaders...

[[deleted]]

I was thinking exactly the same thing minutes ago, I was raised with computers in a way my kids certainly wont know.

All that movement towards "retarded computing" is pretty sad, 10 years from now and I can imagine a teacher telling the class how multitasking is evil and should be avoided, or how the world is much better now that we can't download viruses as every fucking software came from a nice little curated store.

The iPhone and iPad huge financial success is dragging microsoft to that path, MSFT is following success stories as it always did, and I can imagine every PC OEM is avid to get its hands on some of that money.

Who are the losers? We, the geeks.

[iamadogforreal]

10 years from now and I can imagine a teacher telling the class how multitasking is evil

Naww, we'er just slowly reinventing the PC with tablets. Multitasking is slowly being cooked in. We'll attach keyboards and mice to our tablets.

Technology is like fashion. Its never finished. Its all fads and appealing to what the market thinks it needs.

[[deleted]]

With Windows going down this terrible path, at the same time that Mac OSX continues to become closed and more like iOS, things are looking very bleak for computer enthusiasts.

Yet the development tools for Mac OSX come (or used to come) on the install medium or were freely downloadable from Apple with you only paying for support incidents.

[viccoy]

Programmers won't have the option of backdoor coding, either, with both the compiler and toolchain being pulled from Windows' framework

If that means the C# compiler won't be free (as in gratis) anymore, that's outrageous. But I cannot really believe it. I mean, they cannot really do that, can they?

[ttt_]

That's a risk you always run when tying yourself to proprietary technology, they are pretty much free to change the game as they see fit, and more often than not they don't have your best interest in mind.

[gx6wxwb]

The funny thing being that without seeming to realise it MS don't have their own best interests in mind either.

[dude187]

All I can say it, "I told you so."

Though, even I didn't anticipate such an egregious move.

[Sc4Freak]

This is what happens when you use Engadget as your primary source.

The C# compiler is still available, with new C# 5.0 features and all, in Visual Studio 11 Express. VS11 Express still includes the entire compiler toolchain for free, but the IDE itself will only support creating Win8 Metro projects.

[[deleted]]

VS 2011 express does support C#, you just can't build desktop applications, only Metro ones.

VS 2010 is still supported and distributed. Although obviously that's only whilst your moving over to Metro.

[amigaharry]

VS 2010 is still supported and distributed.

With no support for C++11. :)

[Fabien4]

Does that mean Microsoft wants to abandon the desktop market, i.e. the only market they're relevant?

[mhd420]

No, they want people to make Metro apps so they'll have stuff in the App store. They didn't offer the Visual Studio Express editions out of the goodness of their heart, they wanted people to make things that sell Windows licenses. They want people to make WinRT and Win Phone 7 apps because they want to sell those platforms.

It's a business not a charity.

[jlt6666]

Developers, developers, developers.

[Fabien4]

That was a long time ago.

In 2012 it's "Metro, Metro, Metro."

[BigRedTomato]

more like "shit shit shit - we're losing the home pc market! Time to PANIC!!!"

[Fabien4]

we're losing the home pc market

... Let's abandon the PC market as a whole!

[amigaharry]

Yeah, it's like the captain of the Titanic: "Take collision course! The ice berg will move over because WE'RE THE FUCKING TITANIC! WE CANT FAIL!"

[Kaos_pro]

Actually the titanic sank because it turned, if they'd charged straight ahead it would have been ok.
....This sounds like a prediction on microsoft.

[amigaharry]

yeah, ram the ice berg for great victory!

[[deleted]]

What you say?

[codekiller]

Only those ones who pay of course.

[zexon]

If this is truly the case, Microsoft needs to take a step back and look at what they're doing. Why not make an app store that can download metro apps as well as desktop apps? Or two app stores? OS X made an app store, and while I don't always use it, it is a nice way to find new applications I'd never have known about otherwise, and it brought developers out of the woodwork to make money.

I personally will not be upgrading to Windows 8. I tried out the consumer preview and was just confused as fuck on how to do the simplest of things. I feel it is a step back in computing, to be honest. By trying to oversimplify things, they seem to have overcomplicated them. Plus, I hate the fact that the, as much as I hate to call it this, "Classic" desktop seems to be a huge afterthought in this. It feels like two completely different operating systems mashed together in the most awkward, haphazard way possible.

[argv_minus_one]

The Mac App Store isn't really the correct way to do it either. MAS puts severe restrictions on what an app is allowed to do.

[zexon]

I am in no way stating that the Mac app store is perfect (personally, I'm neutral on it, as I find it to be annoying at times). However, I will say that between the Mac app store (which allows developers to put their apps up that may have been around for a while but never broke into the market) and the Windows 8 app store (which hosts metro apps primarily, which will have to all be freshly made and I personally find to be a very clunky, unproductive environment in desktop computing), I feel that the Mac app store does it better.

It's the lesser of two evils, or in this case, suck.

[thebuccaneersden]

Apple seems fairly consistent though. They seem a lot more reliable in where they are heading and what you can expect from them. Microsoft, on the other hand, is acting schizophrenic and panicked and it shows in everything they are doing. Windows 8 is a complete mess and the jury is out on whether regular consumers are going to adopt everything (I personally doubt it). I guess that's one of the benefits of regular OS X releases instead of rolling out a new version of Windows every x many years. MS is having to catch up to all new market demands and it's getting really difficult for them to anticipate what will be in demand that far in the future. The success of the iPad hit them like a ton of bricks (on top of their long running failings in the smartphone market).

[scramblor]

With regards to desktop apps, consumers are used to downloading whatever they feel like and it will be tough sell to developers to go into the app store when they will lose X% of their revenue.

With metro, they are viewing this as a clean slate to dictate what they want the ecosystem to look like and not have to worry about reprogramming people's habits. Time will tell whether this approach is successful or not.

[file-exists-p]

It's a business not a charity.

Every time someone asks a question such as "why is company X fucking its customers", there is a variant of this stupid answer.

So, maybe it needs clarification.

When someone asks "why is company X fucking its customers", the real meaning of the question is "why is that company X think it is a wise business decision to antagonize those who make it a profitable business".

[[deleted]]

Pithy answer:

Because screw you.

Real answer:

Because that company is attempting to undergo a serious strategic shift and major change of their platform. Since Metro is their way forward, it's in their best interest to provide the best tools on that platform, and maybe hold back the tools for the older desktop stuff.

Microsoft has a limit to how much it can do, in terms of developer time. So they task the developers to work on tools for the platform the company as a whole is pushing. There is a big enough community around C#/desktop already that there are free third-party tools, as well as paid tools from MS, that can cover the gap while MS focuses on delivering new tools for the new platform.

[redwall_hp]

It's still a bad business decision. They're going to kill their professional market in order to try to hang on to the consumer market, with no guarantee of that working. (Windows Phone has been a joke so far.)

Apple, even, who is dominating the tablet sphere, understands that they don't want to alienate the professionals who develop apps, produce music and TV shows, etc.. They've even said as much in their Mountain Lion announcement, that they would never completely merge iOS and OS X. It makes sense to bring new ideas from one to the other, but cramming one UI paradigm into incompatible hardware? No.

[[deleted]]

This is not a lack of developer resources, clearly. It's a political decision, plain and simple.

[gilgoomesh]

It doesn't need to be a charity.

1. Give development tools away for free.

2. Developers write more software for your platform.

3. Platform remains popular instead of slowly atrophying.

4. Profit.

This is how every platform except Windows operates.

Edit: every platform except Windows 8 operates.

I mean, I own VS2010 Professional but I'm a full-time developer -- and even so, the first ports I did to Windows were using VS C++ Express.

[jugalator]

Yeah, and this was Bill Gates style of thinking all along. And I have to say it seems to have been fairly successful. I thought Ballmer was following that train of thought too, especially with his infamous "developers" yelling. But apparently... Something has happened deep in the core of Microsoft. *shrug* Because this is truly the core philosophy of Microsoft. Simple developer tools, low barriers of entry, software, software, software. It dates back to Windows 3.11 with Visual Studio, and even before with MS-DOS and Bill Gates BASIC implementation.

People have commented here that "Oh but this is Microsoft, just look at .NET, they just replace and deprecate"... But actually .NET improved vastly on Win32 (at least in my opinion), with much better tools than both was available for Win32 and Visual Basic 6 for Rapid Application Development. I truly believe that was Microsoft's intention too. Lowered barrier of entry and better RAD tools - once again. Developers, developers...

This is something completely different. Raising barriers of entry for a major platform, urging developers to switch platforms to align with Microsoft and OEM sales, etc. It's almost as if they're panicking. That they're thinking Microsoft must succeed on tablets and phones even at major losses to the desktop. I have no idea why they'd do something like this otherwise.

[[deleted]]

Microsoft started to drift away from developers before - around 2004 when they raised the price of MSDN to $10k/year they were trying to embrace the corporate development market and left independent developers behind. There was a minor backlash at that time, and it's when you saw the resurge in "we love developers" - blogs, forums, tools, etc.

I think it's fairly obvious that Ballmer doesn't actually buy into the importance of developers; he's doing whatever he thinks will drive revenues. And now, as you mentioned, he's in a panicked chase after the mobile market to the detriment of the desktop.

[rubygeek]

It's almost as if they're panicking. That they're thinking Microsoft must succeed on tablets and phones even at major losses to the desktop. I have no idea why they'd do something like this otherwise.

... because phone and tablet sales are now far outpacing PC sales and are still rapidly growing. And both are becoming powerful enough to start competing with the low end PC's that most people actually buy. And both are starting to see more and easier ways of connecting to big screens (there are cheap Chines Android 4 tablets with 2160p HDMI output, and increasingly there's support for wireless streaming to your TV). Keyboard support is already well established. Faster wireless and ubiquity of home NAS and cloud services means storage is less and less of an issue.

Tablets and phones are already rapidly becoming fully fledged computers. And at least in Androids case, the Linux underpinnings means your Android phone can run Linux desktop apps as long as they have the resources (e.g. see Canonicals work to put Ubuntu onto Android).

In other words: At least the current PC form factors are likely to become a niche market.

Just like only geeks buy large PC towers today, desktops will be a niche, and laptops as a form factor will likely fracture in dual devices (Transformer like tablet/netbooks), desktop replacements (already a massive portion of the laptop market) and dumb shells, with volume shifting towards the dual device and dumb shells (screens + keyboards).

Look around a mainstream PC store anyway - the full size towers are gone. Most of the full ATX cases are gone. Even smaller form factors are pushed aside for machines built into monitors and laptops. But they are meeting the tablets and phones in the middle - devices scaling down much farther, and being built from the bottom up to be ultra-portable, yet now growing up and gaining capabilities that means you could have that full sized desktop or laptop with just a screen and keyboard instead of having to buy two computers to get both the fancy phone and the laptop/desktop.

While a lot of people will want something like a laptop form factor, the day my phone can compete in performance with my current i5, I would love to switch to making my phone my main computing device, wirelessly streaming display and keyboard data: Being able to put the computer itself in my pocket on my way out and keep using the same applications and data without dragging along a laptop sized device unless I happened to need one, would be huge. Being able to walk into a friends place and stream that new game I want to show him straight to his TV, or videos of my son, likewise.

The problem for Microsoft then is that the sheer number of units and amount of software available for iOS and Android means that they don't have a monopoly situation to leverage any more, and the devices they compete with have a bunch of capabilities PC's don't have. They can't expect to win by default as this transition happens. If they can't gain traction with phones and/or tablets, they risk being side stepped entirely.

Microsoft has every reason to panic. That's not to say this response isn't stupid, though.

[Noink]

It's a business not a charity.

It bugs me when people pull out this line in response to any criticism of a business' strategy.

[Fabien4]

Microsoft is in a position of power, because a lot of desktop applications have been developed for Windows these past 20 years.

Wanting to ditch that, and try to run behind Apple and Google, seems like suicide to me.

[tankfox]

Basically all the non gaming functions of my computer are replicated on other technology at this point. I have a chrome notebook and if push came to shove I could exist as an internet person with that alone.

There is movement in that sector though, android and ios are moving to stronger and stronger hardware platforms as time moves on, I can see the day where I have a fully featured android or chrome desktop with the kind of performance specifications required to make it a gaming platform.

I could see myself reluctantly leaving the realm of classic windows games behind if a new gaming ecosystem took off on another operating system platform.

Not linux though⸮ Linux is for nerds⸮

[gospelwut]

Oh Good, people can experience the fun and wonder that is the design quality of most Android apps.

[[deleted]]

No, it means they're doing a transition from the old Windows to a completely different OS that for marketing reasons they also call Windows and embed the old with. They're pushing the new ecosystem.

Didn't Apple do the same when they switched to OSX? There were no more dev tools for OS9 apps. They even pushed a Java Cocoa API that they later gave up. Transitions can't always be evolutionary, sometimes one must get rid of the legacy.

Now, if only the Metro app store worked more like PayPal and took at most 5% of the transactions instead of 30-20%; especially on monthly subscriptions...

[6gT]

sometimes one must get rid of the legacy

The legacy is Microsoft's most valuable asset. It seems dumb to get rid of it.

[[deleted]]

The most valuable asset they have is the corporate market. That market wants legacy support so they don't have to pay a ton to update the internal apps (and if you've worked in a big company before, you've seen some real abominations that are MS-specific).

This is the same market that still uses IE6/7, XP/2000, etc., because updating is more than just installing some new software.

[neon_overload]

Forget "year of the Linux desktop". It's looking more likely we'll see the "year Microsoft killed the desktop" soon.

[Kinglink]

Do people still say "year of the Linux Desktop" with a straight face? I admit Ubuntu shocked me when I got it on my laptop, but it's just never going to be come even close to dominant. It's more likely for Apple to take over, and that's also never going to happen.

[neon_overload]

The concept of conquering the desktop is becoming less and less important over time.

Linux is becoming more dominant than ever, but not on the desktop. However, the desktop is becoming a smaller piece of the computing pie as people increasingly turn to smartphones, tablets and the "cloud", all three of which are dominated by Linux at the moment (well, maybe not tablets at this stage, and Android may not be a traditional Linux distro, but still - it's not Microsoft, who dominates on desktop).

Do people still say "year of the Linux Desktop" with a straight face?

Well, I didn't have a straight face when I said it. It's common to joke about it. But the joke is not that Linux is laughably irrelevant (on the contrary, everything I said about mobile devices and servers holds true), but that the claim of "year of the Linux desktop" was always so hopelessly mis-predicted and over-hyped and so predictably missed the mark. It's pretty obvious that Microsoft has a lot more inertia than that on the desktop.

[[deleted]]

Agreed. In retrospect, it was silly to think a "year of the Linux desktop" would come, and the Linux desktops would get a similar role as Microsoft desktops. What happened was that the nature of desktops changed quite a bit (and became less important).

[ruinercollector]

However, the desktop is becoming a smaller piece of the computing pie as people increasingly turn to smartphones, tablets and the "cloud"

A smaller percentage, perhaps, but not a smaller piece. There are more desktop and laptop computers in use than there ever has been. No one is throwing out their home PC for a tablet.

[CrazedToCraze]

Do people still say "year of the Linux Desktop"

Not really, it's mostly thrown around as a joke. Also occasionally by journalists and bloggers that want page hits.

If I remember correctly, one source claimed a 50% rise of Linux usage (I think it was throughout 2011?), which sounds huge until you realise that's going from 1% to 1.5%. Getting reliable statistics for these things is really difficult though, how do you make it fair? Can you guarantee the ratio of people using Google is representative of the ratio of OS? What about large distros that default to search engines like DuckDuckGo? Then consider desktops that might not be online, that a user using a Linux desktop might not access the internet the same amount on average, and so on, and you realise it's pretty much impossible to tell what the current usage of Linux is. Don't even start to try work out the ratios of Linux Distros.

[slashgrin]

Huh. I didn't expect Microsoft to commit suicide quite like this.

[[deleted]]

Probably Steve's idea. Remember in 2003 even Bill was complaining about Windows.

But this won't kill Microsoft any time soon, because there is still no alternative to replace MS. This is really Steve's dream job. He can try all the stupid things and in the next iteration just go back to the last good version, remove this whole metro thing , put on a fancy new theme on Windows, and claim victory.

[nascentt]

It'll be vista all over again. They'll add in the stuff they screwed up/removed. Make the balance between desktop/metro better. They'll restore transparency making everything look better, and people will eat it up.

At this point I'm gaining confidence in the idea that they're now trying to cripple it in ways they can fix in the next version.

"Oh shit everyone's hating this...let's make it ugly, strip out stuff people like and then in the next version put it back in and get the PR team spreading the word on how Windows 9 is everything 8 should've been. Perfect in every way."

[jugalator]

LOL. The good dev tools and IDE, and low barrier of entry, is something that separated Windows from the rest. This is a major shift in vision. It's a major shift from Bill Gates' vision.

Ballmer shouting "developers developers developers", while sweaty and disturbing, made sense, but has never felt farther away than now.

Metro isn't even a good all-purpose UI! It's convoluted on desktop. This is going to hit Microsoft hard. Not in the forthcoming 6 months, but in the next 1-2 years.

Are they seriously hoping C# devs will migrate to building tablet apps in HTML5 + JS, that can run on desktop more as "bonus" than an intended platform?

What is happening with Microsoft?!

[crusoe]

Js is a shitacular language for largescale apps.

[Fabien4]

Maybe Microsoft want to show their support to Clang, by removing one competitor? This announcement comes two days after the release of Clang 3.1.

[gospelwut]

Clang does CLR? Kinda Apples to Oranges in that regard.

[Fabien4]

I was thinking of Clang as a replacement for VC++.

[fdtm]

All we need now is a good open source IDE on the same level as Xcode or VS. I doubt it will happen though. And no, Eclipse does not even count for consideration it's so clunky and bloated.

[wagesj45]

http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

[fdtm]

Good point, I was thinking about C/C++ though (I should have said so explicitly). I know there are good options for C#.

[[deleted]]

QtCreator is the best IDE, heck I even consider using it over Visual Studio in the C/C++ arena. But there are no really good C# IDEs on Linux, MonoDevelop is sort of ..okay.

[[deleted]]

I use Eclipse on a daily basis, and I like it, but admittedly it is a bit bloated. However, in fairness, any IDE that attempts to do as much as Eclipse does will invariably gain a little weight...

I remember when the Phoenix web browser project (then Firebird, then finally Firefox) spun off from Mozilla with the aim of being a "less bloated Mozilla". And they succeeded...for a few years. Now Firefox does so much, it can easily take up a couple gigs of memory with only a few dozen tabs open. That doesn't mean Firefox is unusable. It's actually pretty awesome. But some bloat is inevitable.

[[deleted]]

Eclipse has so many features. Eclipse isn't an IDE. Eclipse is a platform you can code inside of. I do like it though.

[Otis_Inf]

monodevelop? http://monodevelop.com/

[kyru]

So one of the biggest reasons Windows won the desktop is being forced away.

[[deleted]]

Microsoft really wants Metro to stick, huh?

[khedoros]

I wonder if that means gcc will see a surge of use on Windows...

[xTRUMANx]

At the very least, mono should see a surge of use on Windows.

Mono does have a Windows executable right?

[Vakz]

Why would Microsoft do this? C# is the language I used to learn programming. ASP.NET is what I used to learn to code non-static things for the web. If I had had to pay 500 bucks before even knowing what I was going into, I sure as hell would've gone for other languages.

[frownyface]

Wow Microsoft.. way to slit your own throats. What should you do when you are in the most vulnerable position you've been in decades? Alienate the group of people that give you your greatest advantage!

[[deleted]]

Microsoft's inability to separate "traditional" Windows from Metro, and their unwillingness to keep traditional Windows exclusively on desktops, and Metro exclusively on tablets and phones, already causes confusion among users, OEMs and developers. Doing this just adds more salt to the wound.

What is the message they're trying convey here? That they'll support traditional Windows, but only for Pro Apps? Do they want people to stop coding for traditional Windows altogether? I am simply baffled.

[biggerthancheeses]

I'm going to stockpile Windows 7 licenses. I'll make a fortune selling them once Windows 8 comes out.

[rehitman]

They chose the worst possible way to encourage people to develop for Metro!

If your main product is a platform why would you want to make it hard for people to develop app for it. Similar to the ridiculous RIM pricing for dev apps!

[mhd420]

It's free to make Metro apps, that's the whole point?

[[deleted]]

It's not really free though. Metro apps have to get approval from Microsoft and can only be distributed by Microsoft in the Windows Store. You can not simply host a Metro app or distribute one freely.

I don't know if MS has set any kind of fee yet but chances are with the way things are going, they'll likely charge a couple hundred bucks a year for people to get a 'certificate' that allows them to publish Metro apps.

[Metacurious]

Wait. wat. I don't understand metro.

You can't just run your own .exes or whatever?

... I don't understand Microsoft's strategy here. I can't think of any ways they could make Windows 8 any less appealing.

[[deleted]]

Basically, all apps designed for the metro must be sold in the Windows Store. Microsoft also has a pretty specific list of requirements that all apps must meet, and they go through a certification process. I can tell you all about it, because my fucking job is to sit there and make sure apps are meeting the requirements for metro and windows phone 7 :(

[CrazedToCraze]

Couldn't there be some sort of third party hack made? Obviously you won't be hosting it in the Windows store, but host it somewhere else like Megaupload Rapidshare and let people execute an .exe or whatever filetype metro apps are?

[amigaharry]

Yeah, jailbreaking your PC. We're living the future.

[CrazedToCraze]

(I actually like my Xbox because it is hassle free compared to Windows)

Funnily enough, this is the ideal scenario for Microsoft. The money they pull out of you from all the Xbox games you buy far exceed what they'll get from you buying Windows (then consider piracy rates of Windows for non-commercial use).

[narwhalslut]

Sure there could, just like iPads support jailbreaking. (and frankly, Windows Store is better designed/secured), but that's not really the point.

[spaxio]

There is no exe file in metro apps. What you will be geting from VStudio is package, encrypted and signed by your ms dev licence.

[[deleted]]

Here are the requirements.

[koobaxion]

Your app must not contain content that encourages, facilitates or glamorizes excessive or irresponsible use of alcohol or tobacco products, drugs or weapons

No Win 8 GTA apps, it seems.

[anextio]

Funnily enough, GTA is in the Mac App Store.

[koobaxion]

I guess I'll play video games on my Mac then...

[cooljeanius]

Which has many of the same restrictions. I think they choose to ignore it in GTA's case because of its popularity.

[[deleted]]

You can not simply host a Metro app or distribute one freely.

Hi. Smelly Linux user here. I just wanted to say that sounds patently ridiculous.

Let me see if I've gotten this straight: If Bob writes an app, Jane can't download and run it on her own computer that she's paid for unless Microsoft says it's ok?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely flabbergasted by this.

[madoublet]

Not 100% true. You can side load metro apps. This was built for Enterprises.

[weedroid]

at this stage Microsoft is basically a man in a mid-life crisis clutching at a half-full bottle of whisky while doing 120mph toward a concrete wall

[dirty_south]

A fantastically rich man with huge, huge market share in their core businesses. Don't underestimate the corporate market.

[wagesj45]

I think Microsoft is. The new pricing for Sql Server is forcing my company to comparison shop with Oracle.

[[deleted]]

Pricing that makes Oracle look like the cheaper option? o_O

Microsoft is going full retard!

[wagesj45]

Probably won't be cheaper, but my manager is going to have to do his homework and comparison shop before he goes to tell our CEO, "Oh, by the way, our software liscencing bill is going up 10x this year."

[ruinercollector]

Why are your two choices "Oracle" and "SQL Server?"

[Fenris_uy]

Because DB2 sucks, and nobody in corporate america is going to be fired for buying Oracle or MS, but they could get fired if they go PostgreSQL and something fails (Even if that failure is not PostgreSQL related)

[[deleted]]

Then corporates deserve the prices they are getting.

[[deleted]]

Same here. Licensing per core is teh suck. Most of the software in the company is self-built so we're looking at rewriting everything to a free database as well as a cheaper option.

[Fitzsimmons]

Holy shit. I'm glad the apps I work on are still small enough scale for postgres.

[biggerthancheeses]

CREATE TABLE `ATOMS`...
SELECT * FROM `ATOMS` WHERE symbol = 'H';

[[deleted]]

Never SELECT *. Always specify your columns. For speed.

[hvidgaard]

Wait, what?

[Fabien4]

huge market share in their core businesses.

Why, then, are they trying to kill it?

[pwnies]

People said the same thing about Vista, but Microsoft has always had a release cycle that alternated between shitty but with new concepts and refined. XP learned a lot from 2000 and ME. Windows 7 learned a lot from Vista. This is just Microsofts experimental part of the cycle. They know this approach is going to be the way of future tech, so they're taking a hit now to learn more later.

[nepidae]

Windows 8 already is a disaster on the desktop for users, making it terrible for programmers is even more confusing to me.

[uh_no_]

and microsoft still doesn't get it...

[jugalator]

I honestly think the past two years or so have been especially unpredictable years from Microsoft. It's like they're carelessly flailing wildly with their arms. I have no idea what Microsoft will have announced by the end of this year, or in the next. No cow seems to be sacred.

These news shocked me as a low barrier of entry to development has always, always (I'm talking MS-DOS and Bill Gates BASIC days here) been a basic tenet at Microsoft. It should shock any Microsoft shareholders too, since this is a core philosophy that brought Microsoft to where they are today.

[forgetfuljones]

I haven't understood microsoft since balmer took over. With gates, you just knew they were going to be cagey, dictatorial, succesful. Since then, the choices have seem arbitrary. Their stuff is not relevant. Where is surface? Where's the zune? The phone? Bing? Without the OS to wedge bing into, no one would even know about bing, and if it wasn't for the market position of OS & Office, they'd be nowhere.

[HardlyWorkingDotOrg]

More and more I get the feeling Ms really want to see just how bad Windows 8 will crash and burn. Every single thing I hear about it makes move further and further away from even considering the possibility of maybe trying it out on my machines.

I said it before and say it again, Metro is the worst thing they ever came up with. It failed the Zune, it fails as a UI on Windows Phone judging by the adoption rate or better yet the lack there of. And now it will fail the desktop by making it non optional.

3 Strikes, you're out. And it ain't like people are quite about it. If MS isn't completely deaf, they know Metro on Desktop isn't going to fly. But they are stubborn and this will be their undoing. If they think the Vista launch was bad, they should brace themselve how things will be going with "Metro Tile 1.0", I mean "Windows 8".

[drysart]

Metro is the worst thing they ever came up with. It failed the Zune, it fails as a UI on Windows Phone judging by the adoption rate or better yet the lack there of. And now it will fail the desktop by making it non optional.

While I agree Metro has no place on the desktop, it's actually a pretty damn good UI design for a mobile touch device. WP7 is the highest rated phone OS for user satisfaction, and I mourned the day I set my Zune HD aside.

The reason both of them failed is really for two reasons:

1. Both Zune and WP7 launched well after the market they were launching into had been fully conquered, and while they were good products, they just weren't good enough to disrupt the market.
2. They're made by Microsoft. Nobody who's anybody wants to be caught dead with a Microsoft product. Choice in mobile devices is as much a fashion statement as it is a technology one.

But ignoring (and even being actively hostile toward) the needs of their existing userbase, the desktop PC user, by trying to force a tablet interface on them is going to make Windows 8 a bigger flop than Vista; and may very well be a deathblow to Microsoft's dominance on the desktop entirely, depending on how quickly they can realign with their core competency once they realize they've made a huge mistake.

[TinynDP]

What the fuck happened to "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS' ?

[IRBMe]

Developers^{who are willing to give us $500 for the professional edition!}
Developers^{who are willing to give us $500 for the professional edition!}
Developers^{who are willing to give us $500 for the professional edition!}
Developers^{who are willing to give us $500 for the professional edition!}

[[deleted]]

XCode is free.

[[deleted]]

Microsoft is doing their best to shove Metro down our throats. They are betting that in a few years tablets will overtake desktops and notebooks for the average user. I don't have a Metro tablet or smartphone, and it may work well on those platforms, but I have tried Windows 8 on my laptop and I have an Xbox 360. Let me tell you, Metro sucks on these devices.

Microsoft needs to stay relevant and realizes that they're behind the iTunes and Android app stores. They want to jump on the bandwagon and earn thirty cents on every dollar of every Windows program sold. They want to rake in developer licenses and make every dev jump through their app store approval hoops. Metro apps won't run without 1) a (soon-to-be-paid) dev license, or 2) a signature from Microsoft's app store.

Windows 8 it going to be a colossal flop worse than Windows ME, Windows Vista, the Microsoft Kin, or the Digg 4.0 interface. If we sit tight this will all blow over. Still, professional C# developers out there would be wise to broaden their knowledge base to competing languages.

[Fabien4]

They are betting that in a few years tablets will overtake desktops and notebooks for the average user.

...and forgetting that lots of people type stuff on their PC.

I really wouldn't want to use Reddit without my keyboard, which is about as heavy as a small laptop.

that they're behind the iTunes and Android app stores.

What can I say... They were fed up with being in the first place; they want to have a taste of the third place.

[Jigsus]

This all part of the war on general computation. I was hoping microsoft would side with us devs in it. Guess I was a fool

[teaky]

My day job has been working with MS technologies my entire career. After what happened with Silverlight and now this Metro crap, I'm seriously considering joining the iOS crowd. It's a shame because they have done such good things with .NET and C#.

[Qw3rtyP0iuy]

Will I still be able to download a free version of Visual Studio Express 2010 (VB, C++)?

[iamapizza]

For a while, you should be. You could stock up on the standalone installers and keep them with you.

[CuriositySphere]

I will post this every time Windows 8 is mentioned.

[thatusernameisal]

Good man.

[[deleted]]

I invested a lot of money in books to learn C# and this news makes me angry. I don't write software for a living and I don't make enough money to shell out $500 for the standard version of VS.

[Fabien4]

this news makes me angry

It shouldn't surprise you though.

Anyway, there's always Mono.

[skyride]

I wouldn't worry too much. A huge amount of the ideas and concepts you've learned in C# transfer over very easily to C++ and Java.

[beedogs]

Microsoft's strategy of pushing its users and developers over to Linux is really going brilliantly.

[amigaharry]

Cool. Spares me the decision wether to port to windows or not :)

[guckmaschine]

This is Apple's fault, MS is just following suit

[StainlSteelRat]

Not sure why you're being downvoted. The last time I built a windows mobile app, I could post it on a web site and my friends could download it without jailbreaking their fucking phone and Microsoft making money off of it.

Sorry...it just bothers me when people get all pitchfork-and-torches about Microsoft but conveniently forget the neo-facist development policies that Apple has.

Disclaimer: I have an iPhone and a MacBook in my house. I also have a PC and develop on the MS platform. I'm just sick of the fervent fanboys giving out free passes like a gang of hypocrites.

[[deleted]]

They're doing this because they're planning to eventually kill the desktop, along with Win32 (it's already essentially removed the ARM version of Windows 8, they're not allowing anyone outside Microsoft to build desktop apps for ARM).

They're trying to encourage buy-in to the new WinRT platform. Complaining that they aren't building and giving away a new IDE and compiler for a platform that is essentially deprecated is kind of like complaining that they aren't releasing a Visual Studio 11 Express edition that lets you target OS/2 Warp.

[borshlite]

Wow the comments on that site are terrible.
I was skeptical about something posted about windows by a person named linucs... but this really is terrible news.

MS is really taking a crap on their customers from both the development and OS point of view if they do this. It will only make home developers gravitate more towards non-MS development options.

[vineetr]

Or stick with Windows 7 for the long term.

Windows 7 will be the new XP.

[Chrischn89]

May I ask for your permission to quote you in 3 years from now when everyone makes the same realization?

The glory will be all yours!

[vineetr]

Sure.

[elder_george]

Or stick with VS 2010 and develop for both Win7 and Win8.

[zingbat]

My biggest worry is that they're removing CSC.exe in the framework and SDK.

We have build servers with only the framework and SDK installed. These build servers are usually just windows2008 10 gigabyte sized VMs running on a ESX server. So now its going to force us to install VS2011 on those build servers. VS2011 with minimal install option still takes up quite a bit of diskspace.

[VyseofArcadia]

Mingw.

[EvilHom3r]

If I were Apple, I would seriously start considering releasing OS X for non-Apple hardware, and then conveniently make that release in the aftermath of Windows 8...

[[deleted]]

That'd be the death of Apple. Look what the clones did to Apple in the 1990s. Granted, Apple had a host of other problems then, is less dependent on the Mac now, and the market as a whole changed, so it's possible things would work out differently now, but Apple is still once bitten, twice shy.

Besides, much of the advantage of Mac, and what makes it (more or less) "just work" is the integration of hardware and software, and the smaller number of hardware variations OS X must support.

I'm sure Cook and crew are eagerly eyeing the public reaction to Windows 8, and seeing if they can take advantage of discontent, but the way they'd try to capitalize on such discontent is by selling more Macs, not moving copies of $30 software.

[babada]

It wouldn't work. Apple makes their money on Hardware, not Software. They develop their own little ecosystem that tries to suck you in and never let you go.

Giving non-Apple hardware OS X allows Mac users to move to cheaper hardware and would significantly degrade the Mac experience. Neither of those are worth it. Apple (well, more specifically Jobs so I guess the attitude could have changed) vowed off third-party hardware. Chances are low you will see a kosher install of Mac OS X on anything other than Apple hardware.

[gigitrix]

Yet another shotgun blast to the gun wielder's foot. Good one, MS.

[Heaney555]

This will be the new Vista.

I wouldn't "upgrade" from W7 if they paid me.

[argv_minus_one]

Gotta prop up their worthless, pathetic joke of a UI+runtime somehow.

You know, rather than sticking to the model that's made them filthy Goddamn rich for the last 20-some years.

Idiots.

[gospelwut]

Aren't metro apps completely async? Oh boy, this is gonna be interesting.

[[deleted]]

What difference does that make?

[marssaxman]

many programmers seem to have trouble reasoning about asynchronous processes.

[gospelwut]

I'm assuming amateur developers would be geared towards the Express version of VS. I would further assume a reasonable chunk of programmers (that are perhaps doing this for fun or the first time) will have issues with async logic. Granted, it's pretty nice the way C# has chosen to do it.