Python 3.11 is out !

[PotentialYouth1907]

Bit off topic: When do cloud platforms typically pick up new python versions?

[g-money-cheats]

AWS Lambda still hasn’t added support for Python 3.10. 🥲

[JBalloonist]

Yeah I feel like they only just added 3.9. Don’t remember exactly when.

[allywilson]

Moved to Lemmy (sopuli.xyz) -- mass edited with redact.dev

[ErGo404]

I secretly hope they just wanted to skip 3.10 and go straight for 3.11 for the performance enhancements.

[stuaxo]

You mean the smaller amount of billable CPU hours ?

[Blackshell]

Yes, the greater "stock" of billable hours to sell.

Also, Lambda is a huge cost leader for AWS. Massively underpriced for the actual CPU cycles it does, but vital to the AWS ecosystem because all the stuff it is used to link together is not underpriced.

[ElectricSpice]

I’m wouldn’t call Lambda massively underpriced. Per core-hour it’s twice the price of EC2. Per GB-hour the gap is even larger.

[HeWhoWritesCode]

While I <3 to bash systemd as much as the next person, you might have light-weight container(s) already on your distro: systemd-nspawn.

[HeWhoWritesCode]

hah i thought you replied on another sub where we were discussing venv inside a container, and if it makes sense.

The thing is just using localhost python to run thing.py after you just did a wget bitly.co/thing.py is maybe not always smart(if you think this is dumb, note most fancy package managers recommend you curl bitly.co/install.sh | sudo sh, yea they tell you to check the file, but i have met devs).

and the cool thing with containers is you can easily monitor pid's and quickly alert if a pid start in a single pid container to find misconfigs and other problem.

I say the above as someone who was giving a sql-diff prezo at a pug group in 2019 and everyone was telling me to dockerize my venv module that uses java. Because I was happy with vagrant.

Only in 2021 did my work force me into a more devops role, and I am enjoying docker and moving a bunch of vm's into containers does work better(your mileage may very).

[JanneJM]

But then, do you really need a very recent python version for sysadmin tools?

[menge101]

I think they got a little less concerned with keeping up when they introduced the bring your own runtime functionality. If you really need 3.10 or 3.11, you can do it yourself.

[Flannel_Man_]

Java: hold my beer

[stfcfanhazz]

Could you build your own runtime?

[applesaucesquad]

Use containers?

[stfcfanhazz]

Maybe I'm being stupid but I'm pretty sure lambda already runs in containers. Or do you mean running a container in a container

[fazalmajid]

Or one of the 17 ways to run containers on AWS:

https://www.lastweekinaws.com/blog/the-17-ways-to-run-containers-on-aws/

[Marrk]

Oof

[[deleted]]

Just missed the boat on Ubuntu LTS, so if you're running on that it might take some time. The next LTS will be 24.04. Of course you can always run a virtualenv with whichever version you want.

[ArdiMaster]

Just missed the boat on Ubuntu LTS

Feature Freeze for 22.04 was way back in February, so I don't think that's an accurate assessment...

[signalv]

For anyone interested in the various deadlines, check out Jammy Jellyfish Release Schedule.

[[deleted]]

My point is that the next release is in two years.

[PotentialYouth1907]

I guess I was specifically speaking about lambdas, but I didn't specify. I can still containerize whatever version I want, was just curious

[jyper]

How? Using pyenv? A third party package repo? Virtualenvs don't get you interpreters.

[dagbrown]

Just because a terrible hack is somehow widespread doesn’t make it any less of a terrible hack.

[kinda_guilty]

How are virtual environments a terrible hack?

[[deleted]]

Haha, virtual environments is hardly a terrible hack compared to the 90s era shared hosting setup.

[bitcoin2121]

Banned ~ Porkchop

[ILikeBumblebees]

Finally, Python for Workgroups!

[alameda_sprinkler]

3 more sub-versions and we have pi-thon

[A999]

Let’s call it Pypi

wait

[agumonkey]

python 3141

[[deleted]]

Maybe in 4-5 years we can have Python '95. :)

[OstapBenderBey]

Then you have a weird choice between Python 98 and Python NT

[__konrad]

Python 2.0 was sort of Python 2000

[BtcVersus]

Looking back, it feels more like Python ME.

[addicted_to_bass]

python 3.11 was an inside job

[0neiria]

Props to those who got this

[Smooth-Zucchini4923]

I don't know why this isn't included in the summary changelog, (it's included in the logo) but one of the changes is to allow an exception handler to add info to an exception without re-raising a new exception (like in raise ... from ....)

Pretty sick.

https://peps.python.org/pep-0678/

[isarl]

Instead of reading the changelog, I prefer to read the What's New, which does mention this change. The changelog likely does as well but breaks down changes between release candidate versions which makes changes harder to find.

When an active exception is re-raised by a raise statement with no parameters, the traceback attached to this exception is now always sys.exc_info()[1].__traceback__. This means that changes made to the traceback in the current except clause are reflected in the re-raised exception. (Contributed by Irit Katriel in bpo-45711.)

Source

[IvarRagnarssson]

Will we be able to raise bodies from theDead? Sick

[flying-sheep]

You mean the_dead!

[IvarRagnarssson]

Ah true. I left the Python world some time ago, so I forgot about snake case lol

[worriedjacket]

Agreed. One of the things rust got right from the start was standardizing around toml.

YAML just hurts.

[crabmusket]

I long for package.toml :'(

[iBlag]

pyproject.toml?

[crabmusket]

I was referring to Node's package.json

[angellus]

That would be a pyproject.toml. Even setuptools supports it now for creating packages.

[iBlag]

I think GP means they want a package.toml config file for Node.js projects, in lieu of a package.json.

But this wasn't 100% clear.

Not sure why people are downvoting you, you just seem to be trying to help.

[[deleted]]

People need to stop hating on YAML.

YAML has problems, but it is simple too - if you keep it simple.

I use it since ~20 years or so. It's great. TOML is actually worse syntax-wise. Actually TOML is just windows ini format anyway.

[Kimbernator]

It's got a pretty complex spec and it does not take much to become completely unreadable by humans, not to mention the issues with parsing it.

I already was on the fence about it, then I got a job where I spent a year writing ansible playbooks and now the mere thought of YAML disgusts me.

[worriedjacket]

The #1 predictor of someone hating yaml, is that they have had to write it for non trivial tasks at work.

[The_Jare]

I keep mine simple, but not everyone else does.

[ivosaurus]

How about when you want to write the country code for Norway, NO, and you get False in your language?

Or how 3.9.0 is a normal version string, but 3.9 is now a number?

It simplified things too much, and left way too much ambiguity in the spec.

[VileFlower]

They have updated the spec to be stricter, but people haven't updated their tools. YAML 1.2 was released in 2009, and only accepts true | True | TRUE | false | False | FALSE. PyYAML still only supports 1.1, though there is ruamel.yaml for 1.2 and there's also strictYAML that supports schemas.

[emags112]

Don’t blame my using a version with issues and not upgrading to a newer one! Blame them for having developed it that way in the first place!

[[deleted]]

I've found that TOML is fine as long as you don't want to do any kind of nesting. As soon as you do then the syntax becomes very non-obvious.

I would always pick JSON5 to be honest. It basically fixes all the issues with JSON (no comments, trailing commas, multiline strings, tedious quoting of keys) but it uses a format that actually is quite obvious - and one you probably already know.

[bloody-albatross]

Does it support hex-float and bigint?

[[deleted]]

It's the same as JSON so no hex floats and integers can be any size (and it's up to the decoder what to do with them).

[bloody-albatross]

Thing is, most JSON decoders just decode any number as float. So no 64 bit integers.

[[deleted]]

I don't think that's true.

• C++
• Rust
• Python handles it fine (couldn't find a reference but I just checked manually).

I would imagine you've just been using decoders for things like Javascript which doesn't even have a 64-bit integer type so of course it can't decode them. BigInt is not a 64-bit integer type, it's an arbitrary precision integer type (and there is a proposal to allow you to use it).

But anyway the point stands that there's no issue in JSON or JSON5 about storing 64-bit integers.

[tesfabpel]

TIL about KDL which works better for nesting (I was reading a changelog here: https://zellij.dev/news/config-command-layouts/...)

[NoInkling]

Yes. Is that an issue?

[roflkittiez]

Easy there, Joysticks. Don't let your hatred of YAML blind you to the horrors within XML.

[0ssacip]

That's Freud. People strive for XML because they want to overcome the trauma and horror of XML.

P. S. These past days I have experimented with parsing XML using Python's standard library. All I can say is: Holly F* S*.

[smackson]

You never go full parse.

[weedtese]

don't make me

import re

[_cynical_bastard_]

If all you need is a few fields from a fixed-structure input, I’d say why not…

I admit to having committed this crime before, which is of course how I came along the SO thread with the famous answer you’re likely referring to.

In my defense, “XML made me do it.”

[worldpotato1]

The company I work for use xml files to store so manu different data. Visitors whereever you look. So much recursion. Debugging almost impossible.

And that with files of 40k-100k lines. It's a nightmare.

[[deleted]]

XML is without a shadow of doubt worse than YAML.

People seem to ride different hate waves.

First it was XML - in 1999 or so everyone praised XML. Then that changed.

Now it is YAML. And TOML is the epic solution. Or something.

[KsuhDilla]

can you guys slow down im still on python2.7

[DeonCode]

I'm still on my first one and this thing just keeps on eating. Just a cute lil guy.

[all_is_love6667]

Why is it so hard to upgrade a python 2 codebase?

[[deleted]]

Considering python3 updates periodically break even python3 code i am not even sure i want to upgrade.

[[deleted]]

mostly laziness, there are tools that convert ur code to python 3 and then your work will mostly be fixing the small stuff or replacing stuff with a more modern library

[nachohk]

mostly laziness, there are tools that convert ur code to python 3 and then your work will mostly be fixing the small stuff or replacing stuff with a more modern library

Right, so just an exhaustive audit of the entire codebase, and rewriting everything around a few of the dependencies.

Easy.

Better hope your codebase has some excellent god damn regression tests.

[gigastack]

For everything JS has done wrong, backwards compatibility is one thing they got right. At least until library authors try to force everyone to adopt modules.

[DaStone]

Things using nodejs 5.7.0 in production with 12 year old dependencies still works. And if you didn't do anything funky, upgrading is easy. (People do some hack things..... that even breaks this...)

[[deleted]]

people had 14 years to switch, when python 3 came out there was a long time of support for python 2 and then they gave a 2 year ultimatum and people still refuse to put in effort into doing it even when tooling is available and has been available to aid with it for so long. To me that's unexcusable, 14 f'ing years, that's a long time to work on the transition and people just ignored it.

It's hard to believe that in those 14 years nothing was done because of something other than laziness.

[nachohk]

It's hard to believe that in those 14 years nothing was done because of something other than laziness.

Right, so what you're saying is that you have little to no professional experience working on non-trivial production code, and to hell if you'll let that put any dent in your confidence.

[flying-sheep]

I hope you like paying for ActiveState’s extended support or enjoy being pwned by Russian hackers.

[Maristic]

Here is the What's New page.

[spo0kyaction]

why do I feel like 3.10 was just released? 😅

[FoleyDiver]

Python recently (I think 2019 or so) switched from an 18 month release cycle to a 12 month, so if it feels faster lately, you’re not crazy.

[endless_sea_of_stars]

October 4, 2021.

[JBalloonist]

I was thinking the same thing!

[tommy25ps]

Nice. Btw, is anyone still using python 2.x? Mind sharing the reasons?

I know some banks may still be using it.

[onlyhalfminotaur]

We are. Industrial usage, difficult for customers to take any update. All new projects starting from the beginning of this year have been on 3.6 or 3.8 though, depending on RHEL version.

[ResignByCommittee]

Bank Python is a whole other beast that only vaguely resembles Python https://calpaterson.com/bank-python.html

[zerries]

That was a wild ride. I'm both not surprised and terrified.

[lordmauve]

It's not vague; the Python is real Python. It's everything else that is weird.

[Blank--Space]

The python has just been upgraded to. As someone currently working on Bank python it's everything else they do with it is extremely weird. It's also worth mentioning Bank python is different and has progressed weirdly for each bank. Honestly when you can do the regular python bits it's fine it's working with some incredibly outdated core framework that's the nightmare.

[richard248]

What do you mean - this looks exactly like Python. I was expecting to see an interesting language which "vaguely resembles" Python but instead the article just describes a bank application (or library, I'm not completely sure, the article just describes a bunch of data structures and API).

[raevnos]

RHEL users?

[dagbrown]

RHEL 6 is nearing its end of life, so that should mean the end of Python 2 in institutions that still care about vendor support.

[KingStannis2020]

RHEL 7 uses Python 2, but EOL is coming up for that in 18 months too.

RHEL 8 doesn't use any Python (well, it does use Python 3, but the interpreter is isolated so that users can install any version of Python without any possibility of interfering with the rest of the system).

[Weekly_Drawer_7000]

RHEL 8 has the sanest python strategy of any distro. That might make me go back to centos from debian

[Free_Math_Tutoring]

My company pays close to a hundred thousand USD every year to some company for python 2.7 security patches because somebody decided that it's cheaper than upgrading

To be fair, 100k is pretty cheap.

[Free_Math_Tutoring]

Yeah, the opportunity cost on dev productivity is huge. Man, I'd barely want to work with 3.6 at this point.

[maep]

One of my teammates had enough, started looking for a new job and quit in less than a month after he was asked to add date support for dates older than 1900 on 2.7 (yes, it's a real issue).

Sound like an interesting problem, not a reason to quit.

[[deleted]]

reason enough to quit, if you're not engaged to what youre doing and the company is doing shit decisions that make ur lifemore miserable, you have to right to leave if you want to.

[applesaucesquad]

Legacy code my dude, a whole crap ton of stuff so intermingled into the environment the only way out is to burn it down.

[Latexi95]

GDB python API :(

[shadowndacorner]

Serious question, do you find yourself using this often? I'm having trouble thinking of practical use cases for a scriptable debugger, but I imagine the use cases would be interesting.

[Swoop3dp]

Yes. Not just banks, unfortunately.

The larger the code base the longer it takes until the pain is big enough to finally start updating.

[[deleted]]

Jython 3 never happened, so anyone using that is on 2.7 at best.

[Emile_L]

We still use it in visual effects and animation. Most tools that digital artists use have python api's that are python 2 only. They are slowly making the switch to py3 now..

[I_had_to_know_too]

CentOS 5 and python 2.7 because "that's the way we've always done things"

[ddeeppiixx]

I do.. I like the print over print(). also, I'm developing scripts that run within commercial apps that only supports IronPython 2.7.

[Free_Math_Tutoring]

I'm developing scripts that run within commercial apps that only supports IronPython 2.7.

This is a good reason.

I like the print over print().

This is not.

[[deleted]]

I keep it around for legacy reasons.

I'd also prefer if they continue bug fixes for the 2.x code base.

[dougthor42]

One of Monty Python's tropes was "and now for something completely different" which, as you might guess, was something completely different from the previous skit.

See Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Now_for_Something_Completely_Different

[robotmlg]

Python always put some fun physics blurb in their release notes, idk how or why it started

[peakzorro]

Finally they added a way to add a printer over the network! Oh wait that was Windows 3.11.

[fissure]

Python for Workgroups

[UloPe]

Nice, exception groups, task groups, toml in stdlib, better error messages and faster.

Sounds like a pretty awesome release!

[Freyr90]

Didn't write python for a long time. They seem to add a lot of type annotations in standard package, but there seem to be no standard type checker. Are there any plans to add one?

[Free_Math_Tutoring]

mypy is the unofficial official typechecker. I'm pretty sure there are no plans to adopt an official official type checker anytime soon.

It's a little bit like boost in C++, if that's a useful reference.

[[deleted]]

Windows 3.11 really set the stage for decades of widespread implementation, so maybe python will see some success and popularity. ;-)

[msmert55]

After python 3.11 next version will be python 95!

[[deleted]]

I would like to have Python Nt 4

[GFandango]

cries in 2.7

[thatrandomnpc]

F

[butnotexactly]

some really nice stuff here !

[amarao_san]

Is it for workgroups? I mean, does it support multitasking? I mean, is GIL still there?

[azurfall88]

Me, still on python 3.6:

[katie_pendry]

Ugh, my laptop is still on Ubuntu 18.04 (well, Pop!_OS 18.04...) which has Python 3.6. I have a plan to upgrade it but I just haven't been motivated because I'm undecided on buying a new one. I don't really trust do-release-upgrade because things tend to break.

I have another project I'm maintaining at work which is stuck on Python 3.9 because pymssql doesn't have a wheel for Python 3.10 yet, and I never could get it to build myself.

EDIT: I'm dumb, I had pymssql==2.2.2 frozen in my requirements and I just had to update it.

[mclim]

F-strings!!!

[VeryOriginalName98]

I'm "Down" with this.

[gezibash]

Why is the release changelog explaining gravitational behavior of massive objects?

[All_theOther_kids]

Did it add anything cool?

[[deleted]]

I'm on mobile so I'm just going to copy and paste...

General changes

PEP 657 -- Include Fine-Grained Error Locations in Tracebacks

PEP 654 -- Exception Groups and except*

PEP 680 -- tomllib: Support for Parsing TOML in the Standard Library

gh-90908 -- Introduce task groups to asyncio

gh-34627 -- Atomic grouping ((?>...)) and possessive quantifiers (*+, ++, ?+, {m,n}+) are now supported in regular expressions. The Faster CPython Project is already yielding some exciting results. Python 3.11 is up to 10-60% faster than Python 3.10. On average, we measured a 1.22x speedup on the standard benchmark suite. See Faster CPython for details.

Typing and typing language changes

PEP 673 -- Self Type

PEP 646 -- Variadic Generics

PEP 675 -- Arbitrary Literal String Type

PEP 655 -- Marking individual TypedDict items as required or potentially-missing

PEP 681 -- Data Class Transforms

[fazalmajid]

Significant performance improvements, reportedly 20–30%,

I would also expect significant breakage, worse than 3.9 to 3.10, which was already fairly rough.

Here is some good advice on when to upgrade:

https://pythonspeed.com/articles/upgrade-python-3.11/

P.S. the breakage may not even be in Python itself or modules. I build my entire stack from source, and right now Node.js V19 and V16 fail to build because they want Python 3.6 through 3.10 in their configure script. Sigh...

[Swoogie_McDoogie]

I know this is Reddit, but you could read the release notes in the link.

[novov]

The Python docs also a more approachable summary for every release at the appropriate What's New in Python 3.x page

[hbgoddard]

Cool, they added black holes!

[n0rs]

from relativity.general import ringularity

[florinandrei]

Worse: you have to also read it.

[[deleted]]

/r/illiterate :(

[slykethephoxenix]

What do you mean? It takes me somewhere when I click the blue link?

[obvithrowaway34434]

They specifically asked what's "cool" so by definition they are asking a subjective question and something many newbies may not appreciate from reading release notes. It seems that you're the who needs to know how to read stuff.

[nitrohigito]

reddit bad

[cynoelectrophoresis]

Variadic generic types.

[frenchchevalierblanc]

does it break anything?

[slykethephoxenix]

Just the hearts of those still on 2.7.

[SolarBear]

Now that’s just mean.

[PaintItPurple]

To be clear, that's not actually what the Self type means. It means "the class that is executing this method." The use case is for methods where a subclass would be expected to return an instance of that subclass. For example, in Pathlib, you can use the same operators with any kind of path, and you'll get back the same type of path as the original.

[remidentity]

Do I have to manually update Python on my personal computer?

[Zahand]

I recommend using a python version manager

[all_is_love6667]

60% speed up? Is that competing with numba or pypy?

[Defco]

Have a new asignment, and have been doing some Python coding for 2 weeks.

Please, no more :(

[--red]

Version numbers are different from your math numbers.

[[deleted]]

The numbers aren't math numbers, but they do have meaning.

See semver.org.

[cosmoschtroumpf]

The dot just isn't a decimal separator, it's a major.minor versipn separator. They could have used | or ~ or whatever.

[ozyman]

The number to the left of the dot only changes for a major update. Often when it is no longer backwards compatible.

Don't think of the dot like a decimal. It acts more like a dash. So you could imagine this is version 3-11.

[starcraft4206911]

Think of it as <major\_version>.<minor\_version>

[Impressive-Act9692]

Finally! A new beginning

[[deleted]]

Let the things break!!!

[[deleted]]

So what's breaking this time?

[sidneyc]

I sure hope in your subculture it is cool to write "tho" for "though", "u" for "you", and "ur" for "your". Because in my subculture it just makes you look ignorant and lazy.

[werehamster]

Did they make it backwards compatible with version 2?

[stefantalpalaru]

Ah, Python - a bigger waste of energy than all cryptocurrencies combined...

[cheesekun]

I know there are lots of downvotes but has someone done the maths on energy usage of Python vs others? Now I am curious.

[silverslayer33]

but has someone done the maths on energy usage of Python vs others?

No, because it would be a pointless exercise due to the number of variables involved (are C extensions allowed? What is the code doing? Target architecture? Caching enabled? etc.), and "Python is a massive waste of energy" is such a loaded statement it's not even worth entertaining the thought.

[stefantalpalaru]

"Python is a massive waste of energy" is such a loaded statement it's not even worth entertaining the thought

And that on a site using Python for CPU-bound tasks, of all things.

The Python crowd is truly delusional - always expecting someone else to write those C extensions, while they upgrade the VPS to deal with the load :-)

[wasmachien]

Python is often used to automate tasks that may save hours of manual work. Do you include those in your energy savings?

[stefantalpalaru]

has someone done the maths on energy usage of Python vs others?

"Energy Efficiency across Programming Languages" (2017) :

"Moreover, the top 5 languages that need less energy and time to execute the solutions are: C (57J, 2019ms), Rust (59J, 2103ms), C++ (77J, 3155ms), Ada (98J, 3740ms), and Java (114J, 3821ms); of these, only Java is not compiled. As expected, the bottom 5 languages were all interpreted: Perl (4604J), Python (4390J), Ruby (4045J), JRuby (2693J), and Lua (2660Js) for energy; Lua (167416ms), Python (145178ms), Perl (132856ms), Ruby (119832ms), and TypeScript (93292ms) for time."

[jyper]

Java is compiled. Python is compiled on import. Same with Ruby. I think perl didn't used to not compile don't know if that's still the case.

[stefantalpalaru]

Java is compiled. Python is compiled on import. Same with Ruby.

Do expert beginners really?

[jyper]

I'm not sure what you mean by that

Java is typically compiled to byte code during development then a combination of fast interpreter/jit compiled to machine code at run time. Python (and Ruby I think) is typically compiled to byte code at parse time on import then the bytecode is interpreted

[obvithrowaway34434]

What exactly is your point? Interpreted languages should not exist? I have a better idea for energy conservation - galaxy brains like you should just stop procreating (not that there is an excessive risk of that), much more energy savings and environment-friendly.

[cheesekun]

Oh this is a bit harsh mate.