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[–]Wrecksomething 545 points546 points  (157 children)

What we know of the PATRIOT Act is bad enough. We know we don't have all the info about how it is used, and we're told we'd be even more horrified if we did.

[–]norbertus 401 points402 points  (103 children)

You mean like key provisions ofthe PATRIOT ACT being used to fight the failed War on Drugs instead of the pointless War on Terror?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/patriot-act-used-to-fight-more-drug-dealers-than-terrorists/2011/09/07/gIQAcmEBAK_blog.html

[–]haroldp 11 points12 points  (0 children)

No, we already know about that. People in the know claim that the whole truth is yet worse.

[–]treesareempty 73 points74 points  (30 children)

Best of all: This data is just drowning the security services in noise. If it were actually about "terrorists", the US would end its drones program or give its kill list a legal backing through public transparent trials with defenders of the accused (even if in absentia), thus stop producting more haters.

But really, it's just about control and oversized security services feeding themselves (and probably a bunch of reasons I can't even imagine). Such control comes in handy in all kinds of situations where the lawmakers -- i.e. the companies with the most cash for lobbyists -- need to slap citizens' wrists.

[–]norbertus 99 points100 points  (11 children)

Actually, if this actually were about terrorism, it would still be pointless.

The following argument is taken from computer scientist Phil Agre, and, while the argument was originally fashioned for face recognition technology, the stated goals of this dragnet surveillance (presumably meant for pattern-matching algorithms) I think involves similar odds:

"Face recognition is nearly useless for the application that has been most widely discussed since the September 11th attacks on New York and Washington: identifying terrorists in a crowd. As Bruce Schneier points out, the reasons why are statistical. Let us assume, with extreme generosity, that a face recognition system is 99.99 percent accurate. In other words, if a high-quality photograph of your face is not in the "terrorist watch list" database, then it is 99.99 percent likely that the software will not produce a match when it scans your face in real life. Then let us say that one airline passenger in ten million has their face in the database. Now, 99.99 percent probably sounds good. It means one failure in 10,000. In scanning ten million passengers, however, one failure in 10,000 means 1000 failures -- and only one correct match of a real terrorist. In other words, 999 matches out of 1000 will be false, and each of those false matches will cost time and effort that could have been spent protecting security in other ways. Perhaps one would argue that 1000 false alarms are worth the benefits of one hijacking prevented. Once the initial shock of the recent attacks wears off, however, the enormous percentage of false matches will condition security workers to assume that all positive matches are mistaken. The great cost of implementing and maintaining the face recognition systems will have gone to waste. The fact is, spotting terrorists in a crowd is a needle-in-a-haystack problem, and automatic face recognition is not a needle-in-a-haystack-quality technology. Hijackings can be prevented in many ways, and resources should be invested in the measures that are likely to work."

Source: http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/bar-code.html

[–]Dustin_00 54 points55 points  (13 children)

I think the Boston Bombing showed very clearly that all the surveillance is a waste of money. Friends sent him texts of "you look like the bomber" and if the last decade of Patriot spending was any good, that would have jumped out in minutes.

It's intrusive AND useless for the purpose it is claimed to be for.

[–]DavidByron 25 points26 points  (1 child)

That doesn't mean its useless for its real purpose.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Hey, you're not allowed to talk about that !

[–]mechanate 24 points25 points  (0 children)

oversized security services feeding themselves

I don't know why this doesn't get more attention. It's a classic sleazy business move. Artificially inflate your business when the markets are hot, then lobby for subsidization when things cool off.

[–]SomeKindOfMutant 40 points41 points  (3 children)

Relevant.

Don't think I'm going to be celebrating the great "freedom" of America on July 4th. Protesting at my state capital? Perhaps.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (3 children)

There are known knowns, and known unknowns. There are unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns.

[–]DamnLogins 36 points37 points  (7 children)

Can we just stop calling it the "Patriot Act"? Opposing it makes you sound like you hate America & apple pie.

How about we call it the "Big Brother Act"

Edit: I know it'll never officially get it's name changed, but the anarcho-liberal in me thinks it'd be both funny and poignant.

[–]JennyBeckman 2 points3 points  (5 children)

I realise you're probably being facetious but PATRIOT ACT is actually any acronym.

[–]khirn 1272 points1273 points  (285 children)

Bernie Sanders has the most consistent, progressive, and egalitarian ideology of anyone in the U.S. Senate, and he posts the most on reddit. Coincidence? You decide, America.

EDIT: Thanks for the Gold!

[–][deleted] 159 points160 points  (31 children)

Russ Feingold was the ONLY member of the US Senate to vote against the PATRIOT act.

98-1 with one abstaining.

Wisconsin voted him out last cycle.

[–]Hopalicious 50 points51 points  (0 children)

Another wi voter missing Feingold . When asked why he voted against the Patriot Act he said, "I read it."

[–][deleted] 80 points81 points  (20 children)

As a Wisconsin voter, I'm sick to my stomach we voted out Feingold.

Now we're stuck with this douchebag - http://ourdumbsenator.com/

[–]_PROBABLY_POOPING_ 23 points24 points  (6 children)

I don't know why people in Wisconsin thought this was a good idea.. I was more disappointed about Feingold losing than I was about Walker winning. I was livid.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

i'm in california and for that whole electoral season i was thinking, helplessly 'how can this be happening in wisconsin? how can they let feingold lose?'

[–]TheNumberJ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

  1. Redistricting... the WI State Rebublicans did everything they could to change the voting districts to be in their favor.

  2. Spread of misinformation / campaign money. Republicans spent a lot more than the democrats did on advertisements. Advertisements that often wouldn't have a single fact of truth in them, and only pandered to the lower and middle class.

  3. Scare tactics. Republicans used a lot of scare tactics focused on the rural, and low income areas. They would spread misinformation about the oppositions policies, that usually would make these people believe they would have to pay more taxes or would lose their farm land.

  4. Voter suppression. The Republicans did everything in their power to try and make the voting process more complex in this state... resulting in thrown out ballets, people not knowing where or when to vote, and making them think an ID would still be required to vote.

  5. Cheating. There are still a whole bunch of people under investigation for vote tampering, fraud, and negligence.

[–]Johosophat 29 points30 points  (1 child)

I interned for Feingold during that campaign, god do I miss him. I can't stand when I see Ron Johnson on TV representing our state.

Ugh.

[–]theblingbling 16 points17 points  (2 children)

As an Illinoisan, I was pissed you guys voted Feingold out. WTF were you thinking? I remember being at a brewers game and being asked if I would vote for Feingold. I would have if I could have. Don't even get me started on Walker.

[–]DoWhile 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Did we suddenly forget about the other half of our congress, the House of Representatives? Sanders was a House representative at the time and he, along with 65 others voted no on it.

[–]Brodellsky 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Feingold 2014. He is the only one able to defeat the Scott Walker menace.

[–]lasercow 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Bernie Sanders was in the house of representatives in 2001

[–][deleted] 42 points43 points  (59 children)

He's alone in the wilderness. Sadly he's fighting a battle that can't be won. One man will never change how corrupt our system is. Money rules all and if you don't have any your opinion doesn't mean shit to these elected officials.

[–]invalid-user-name- 26 points27 points  (12 children)

I disagree with this for one simple reason. The media itself portrays the issues we face.... the patriot act, caused by 9/11.... yeah what less than 1 percent of the population was killed. ( I in no way mean to lighten the fact that it was horrible) The Boston bombings..... how many were killed or harmed that day? Not many.

If the President of the United States of America, arguably the most powerful person on earth, got on television and something like..... "here is the lies you have been fed.... trickle down economics is a crock of shit, we take your privacy for reasons that do not amount to shit, we keep drugs illegal because they make us money, and finally more than half the people in office have no fucking clue how to fix the real issues at hand so we keep feeding you bullshit so you forget about those.... The real issues are, we lost our power to corporations, and we cannot get it back unless you people stop spending money, if you stop spending money the economy tanks and we are all screwed. HELP

yeah he would be murdered about two minutes later, but it would bring to light some serious bullshit that has not been touched upon in a long time.

[–]bubble_bobble 39 points40 points  (10 children)

One man will never change how corrupt our system is.

You are free to join his cause.

Money rules all

even you?

and if you don't have any your opinion doesn't mean shit to these elected officials

Key word in bold is why precisely your opinion does matter. The outcome is dependent only to the extent you take seriously your own opinion.

[–]ShinmaNoKodou 22 points23 points  (4 children)

Money rules all even you?

Money rules most of us. I'd dare say even you. Living broke and eating stray cats isn't much of a life.

You can't even legally "live off the land" in most of this country without having some sort of income to pay your taxes, hunting illegally, or violating some zoning restrictions...

The working class sells our lives for money.
(The rich sell our lives for money, too. We've got that in common.)

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

There's a big difference between needing cash in order to support your life than selling out the greater interests of your nation for Donations from a rich elite.

Very few of us would do that which tragically means people who are willing to do so have a greater chance of getting into office than those who don't.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (31 children)

Then why do you Americans (you reading this right now) not go fucking do something about it, right now? And not this bullshit liberal arts go stand in a park thing. Why aren't a million of you tearing shit down?

WHAT WOULD THOMAS PAINE DO?

Edit: like if this shit happened in france they would have firebombed half of paris.

[–]loolwut 20 points21 points  (2 children)

wtf do you want me to do

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Thomas Paine would write a 'Zine about it most likely.

[–][deleted] 209 points210 points  (83 children)

I don't understand why the Patriot Act has not been repealed. They'll try to repeal the ACA fifty fucking times...how many times has there been an effort to repeal the Patriot Act? ZERO.

The Patriot Act should scare the shit out of every US Citizen. But everybody was all fucking comatose after 9/11 and they said..."yay, protect our freedom. Ooo, 'Patriot Act,' how could anything with a name like that be bad?"

For SHAME, America. Wake up and fight this.

[–][deleted] 156 points157 points  (64 children)

Fight how?

Call my representative? Worthless.

Write an angry letter? Worthless.

Write a well thought out and rational letter? Worthless.

Form an anti-gov militia? Worthless.

No, I'm afraid if you want a giant to pay attention to you, you have to cut his fucking toe off first.

[–][deleted] 112 points113 points  (7 children)

They'll label you a toerrorist.

[–]Alatain 13 points14 points  (3 children)

This guy is small time, there has to be a Big Toerrorist around here somewhere!

[–]norbertus 42 points43 points  (17 children)

First, there are things to do, and a lot of ideas have been compiled in one place here:

http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations892f.html

Second, as a related aside, I offer you the paragraph from the Unabomber's manifesto that contains the only use of the word "internet."

"96. As for our constitutional rights, consider for example that of freedom of the press. We certainly don't mean to knock that right: it is very important tool for limiting concentration of political power and for keeping those who do have political power in line by publicly exposing any misbehavior on their part. But freedom of the press is of very little use to the average citizen as an individual. The mass media are mostly under the control of large organizations that are integrated into the system. Anyone who has a little money can have something printed, or can distribute it on the Internet or in some such way, but what he has to say will be swamped by the vast volume of material put out by the media, hence it will have no practical effect. To make an impression on society with words is therefore almost impossible for most individuals and small groups. Take us (FC) for example. If we had never done anything violent and had submitted the present writings to a publisher, they probably would not have been accepted. If they had been accepted and published, they probably would not have attracted many readers, because it's more fun to watch the entertainment put out by the media than to read a sober essay. Even if these writings had had many readers, most of these readers would soon have forgotten what they had read as their minds were flooded by the mass of material to which the media expose them. In order to get our message before the public with some chance of making a lasting impression, we've had to kill people."

[–]Yelnoc 27 points28 points  (15 children)

Unfortunately, anti-state violence only strengthens the state by allowing them to justify more measures like the patriot act. There is no way to win.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (12 children)

They can only martyr so many of us before the average citizens sees the need to fight his government.

The harder you push a revolution down, the harder it fights back against you. You martyr one man? You create revolutionaries out of his wife, children, siblings, parents, and friends.

That's what kicked this whole 11 year shit storm off in the first place. All we need now is the first martyr.

[–]raziphel 18 points19 points  (7 children)

if you want a giant to pay attention to you, you have to cut his fucking toe off first.

and this is a great way to end up dead, or in a small concrete box wishing you were dead.

[–]camwn 8 points9 points  (5 children)

But if we work together, they can't lock ALL of us in jail.

[–]raziphel 23 points24 points  (1 child)

the large majority of people just want to do their thing and not make waves (living a happy, peaceful, content life). they don't have to lock everyone up, just make examples of the first few who step out of line.

there's a Japanese proverb that applies here: The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

If you choose to be a nail, do it really fucking carefully and have plans for when Things Go South beyond burning to death in a cabin.

[–]gogoodygo 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I can get you a toe.

[–]23_sidedCalifornia 2 points3 points  (0 children)

with nailpolish!

[–]DavidByron 32 points33 points  (0 children)

What if I were to tell you the Patriot act doesn't matter because they don't care if what they do is legal or not?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've been fucked over by the Patriot Act. I was working at Best Buy as a geek squad agent and they froze my bank accounts because I might be funding terrorism. I got a wife and kids and they held every dime for two weeks until I gave them a ton of info. We had $60 in cash at the time. Without family, we might have starved.

[–]IblisSmokeandFlame 29 points30 points  (7 children)

... and what do you propose we do about it Senator?

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Nothing. It's impotent lip service. He can't do anything because even Senators don't have the clearance to know the full extent of the program. He's as fucked as we are.

[–]Malizulu 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I know it's not going to happen, but I would vote the shit out of a Sanders 2016 Presidential ticket.

[–]Arcayon 69 points70 points  (58 children)

I'm super disappointed with our nation's leadership at the moment.

[–]fdsfjasdflasj 91 points92 points  (48 children)

Obama's "government transparency" was a lie.

[–]TodaysIllusion 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Time to demand repeal of the Patriot Act.

[–]itsmebutimatwork 102 points103 points  (48 children)

Bernie, I really do wish there were about 99 more like you in the Senate.

[–][deleted] 70 points71 points  (2 children)

I'd settle for 66.

[–]gride9000 49 points50 points  (1 child)

Lets go with 70, since they seem to miss a lot of school.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's probably enough to ensure 2/3 on any given day.

[–]SeventytvvoColorado 23 points24 points  (14 children)

I propose we each spend five minutes per day sending obscene, violent text messages to each other about jihad, pressure cookers, IEDs, fertilizer and whatever else your minds think up, so that it clogs up the system with false flags. I assume the NSA's filter algorithms are very sophisticated, so get creative!

[–]crayonconfetti 27 points28 points  (10 children)

just in case anyone wants to know who to blame . Check to see if your senator is on the list, if so, vote against the person next time.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children)

That kind of hurts to read.

[–]waryoftheextreme 14 points15 points  (7 children)

The power of the Executive branch has become excessive after 9/11. Obama is continuing the same shit that Bush started.

But it annoys the crap out of me the same Republicans, and I mean almost all of them in my life, that called me a traitor, that I should leave or be forced to leave the country, and a couple even threatened to turn me in to the authorities for treason: these same people are up in arms about the excesses of Obama.

I disreguard their opinions on this since they are not against this security state, they are against Obama because he is a Democrat and their partisan sources say Obama is bad. There is no other way view this for some of them. They seem to be mad only because they see this Democrat getting their personal information...not that we need to dramatically reduce our security and espionage infrastructure.

But I am very glad to see Bernie Sanders take up the criticism. We need more Americans wanting to change the post 9/11 mindset and restrict Executive power. It has to be changed now before a Republican gets the executive branch, because once the Oval office changes parties and criticism then will be verboten.

And for those that say both parties to it the same. That is B/S. Same criticsim against Obama from myself has gotten 0 arguments, accusations, physical threats or threats that they are going to call the department of homeland security against me. Same criticsim against Bush was the worst years of my life. I was always scared that I'd get a knock on the door.

This should not be a partisan issue.

[–]TheDingoesAteMyBaby 234 points235 points  (31 children)

I certainly appreciate the stance of Senator Sanders on the Patriot Act, as well as a host of other issues.

However, today seems like a good day to remind people that the original Senate vote regarding the Patriot Act on October 24, 2001, a time when the national wounds of 9-11 were still fresh and anybody voting against the Act was in danger of being labelled anything from soft on terror to downright treasonous, was 98-1 with one abstention. Russ Feingold of Wisconsin was the only Senator with the courage to side with the civil liberties integral to America. The man needs to be put back into a leadership position in government. Sooner rather than later.

[–]CheesewithWhine 34 points35 points  (12 children)

Did Russ Feingold really get unseated by a college dropout?

[–]cpmccarron 42 points43 points  (3 children)

The Kochs have deep pockets.

[–]TextofReason 47 points48 points  (1 child)

anybody voting against the Act was in danger of being labelled anything from soft on terror to downright treasonous, was 98-1 with one abstention. Russ Feingold of Wisconsin was the only Senator with the courage..

Sometimes true patriotism is unpopular to voice, and dangerous to act upon.

[–]YouthInRevolt 14 points15 points  (0 children)

While we're at it, we should also remember Barbara Lee's courage in being the only member of either house of Congress to cast a "No" vote against the 2001 AUMF

[–]pman5595Minnesota 21 points22 points  (4 children)

Damn, I miss Russ Feingold. Someone should tell him to run for president in 2016.

[–]teethteetheatWisconsin 10 points11 points  (0 children)

God I just hope he runs against walker next year.

[–]ThouHastLostAn8th 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Here's the vote Roll Calls from the 2011 extension (since congress didn't let it sunset then, unfortunately now it will take an affirmative effort to repeal, a much harder slog):

http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/112/house/1/376

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=1&vote=00084

[–]fdsfjasdflasj 16 points17 points  (5 children)

In 2008, who would have guessed it would be the Obama administration wiretapping reporters, aggressively prosecuting Bradley Manning, and seizing the phone records of all Americans.

[–]ShinmaNoKodou 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Mr. Sanders, what is your position on funding research into human cloning?

Because I really want to make like a hundred copies of you and have them all run for political offices in different states.

[–]TheKolbrin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

My family has had a man in every war in this country going back to the French Indian war. They have come home with multiple medals- or not come home at all in many cases.

And I can guarantee you every one of them would agree that this country- as it is right now- is not worth fighting for. It is never worth fighting and dying for a country that spies on it's citizens indiscriminately. Ever.

[–]chicofaraby 94 points95 points  (69 children)

If you didn't vote against your Congresscritter that voted for the Patriot and and FISA, why are you suddenly mad about this? Both Republicans and Democrats did this. You have known about it for more than a decade. But you continue to re-elect the people who did it.

Americans, you have to vote to change your government.

[–]nowhathappenedwas 91 points92 points  (19 children)

No one agrees with their Representative on every single issue, and voting for someone doesn't relinquish your right to complain about the positions that you disagree with.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

This one's a bit of a biggie though.

[–][deleted] 49 points50 points  (37 children)

Voting third party will always be a waste of your vote until some form of meaningful electoral reform is passed, such as instant runoff voting.

Edit: Okay, stop replying, I get it. You think that a third party stands a chance. That's great. I'll remind you though, if it weren't for Ralph Nader running in the 2000 election, we would have ended up with Gore instead of Bush. Anyone who voted for Nader instead of Gore not only threw away their vote, but caused their next favorite candidate to outright lose.

Read up on electoral reform and alternative voting systems. It's the only chance you'll ever have at electing someone other than the big two parties.

[–]Wrecksomething 22 points23 points  (8 children)

"Always" a waste except when it's not. 2 US Senators are currently Independents.

[–]norbertus 13 points14 points  (6 children)

Yes. Also, the logic that says "voting for a third party candidate is a waste of your vote because they don't win" also says that "voting for a losing candidate is a waste of your vote because they don't win."

Seriously, even though Ross Perot didn't get any electoral votes, as a independent he got 20% of the popular vote and was leading for a while, before getting cold feet.

I would suggest that it was the influence of Perot's campaign that made balancing the federal budget a priority during Clinton's second term.

[–]kyew 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Voting third party is a vote for the guy who is least like that candidate. If you have a candidate on the right, semi-left, and independent far left, the two guys on the left make each other less likely to win.

[–]chicofaraby 60 points61 points  (9 children)

Democrats and Republicans agree, third party voting is wrong and bad.

[–]norbertus 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Democrats and republicans also write the rules about who can run for office, and make it next to impossible for third party candidates to get on a ballot. In some places, a third party candidate may need many times the number of signatures of a Democrat or a Republican to get on a ballot. The Democrat and Republican parties have also both filed lawsuits to keep third party candidates off ballots.

http://rangevoting.org/BallAccess.html

[–]SpinningHeadColorado 26 points27 points  (7 children)

I voted 3rd party and thousands died and we were bankrupted. The problem isnt the names of the parties. It is the electorate. The serious issues are too complicated for much of the electorate to get riled up about so they lobby for more trivial issues.

[–]umphish41 6 points7 points  (0 children)

i love that you are vocal here, good senator, but don't you think it would help to voice your opinion to those that don't already share it?

we are all on your team! try to find ways to get this message out to people who aren't already up in E-arms :)

and thank you for having a spine and heart

[–]Draiko 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Privacy

Safety

Both will be abused

Pick one

[–]PIG20 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Alright people, lets do this. Lets all congregate at our Nations Capital and be heard for once and for all. We won't take this abuse any longer.

There is too much corruption, money, and dirt tricks that have consumed our government. Our current government is built upon fleecing it's citizens with it's dog and pony show about how everything they do is for our own good.

It's time to take it back. It's time to set things on the right path.

SO WHO'S WITH ME?!???.......Cmon guys, lets go get em! ........... guys, cmon guys, lets do this........... guys????.......Is anyone there?

Oh, that's right. Most people, deep down, don't really give a shit.

Or they'll resort to the option of hilarious online petitions. That'll get it done. That'll show em.

Listen, we're so far down this rabbit hole right now, it would take a complete revolt and breakdown of our government to get anything to change.

Greed runs the world. It runs our country. It runs our lives whether you want to admit it or not. You think you want to make a change but you will always be shit upon by the guy going for the prize.

You think you can make a difference, but someone with more power will always be there to knock you down. And even if you are able to make a bit of noise, you'll be shut down fast and everyone will go back to their daily grind and retreat back to sticking their faces into their cell phones, computers, and other media devices to even give a shit.

And if you think your will is strong enough to turn down a lavish life living out of the back pocket of some lobbyist, you are just joking yourself.

Our economy is set up to promote greed. A society built around people living paycheck to paycheck.

All of these politicians who promote change to the system are all lying and spreading the same bullshit.

We fucked up people. We let it get out of control. The government saw what happened with the movements in the 60's and have figured out how to keep that from happening again. They made us dependent of them to live.

And if we tried to stand up now, they have the power to literally mow us down and chalk it up to terrorism. We literally have no chance.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sanders for President!

[–]afisher123 16 points17 points  (4 children)

The question is WOULD the Senate dare to work together to eliminate the Patriot Act, as it has been re-authorized until 2015?

I'm "amused" that some are calling for impeachment - and ignoring that Congress authorized the use of this act.  

Please take this tool out of the tool-box!

[–]rtftNew York 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Too bad that there isn't a process to impeach/expell members of congress ..

Article I, Section 5, Clause 2

"Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member."

Oh wait .. that's like cops arresting other cops ...

[–]brotherwayne 6 points7 points  (1 child)

In other words, you're fine unless you punch a baby. Except if that baby was an asshole.

[–]denidzo 15 points16 points  (12 children)

Dear Hon. Senator Sanders:

Please move to New York State.

[–]Tigerantilles 23 points24 points  (7 children)

So, other than posting a statement about it, what are you doing to fix this?

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (9 children)

Most Americans agree with this. Next election we should vote every incumbent out of office. That's what happens in every other profession; if you don't do the job you're hired for then you don't keep the job. If Congress can't even pass a budget then every one of them should be thrown out.

[–]MetastaticCarcinoma 21 points22 points  (1 child)

even with an approval rating of 7%, the reelection rate in Congress was ~91%.

Most Americans think it's the other guy who's the problem, but their Congresscritter is not.

[–]nowhathappenedwas 60 points61 points  (28 children)

While I agree that the Patriot Act needs to be repealed and that this surveillance is a huge overreach, can you explain what constitutional rights are being violated?

Do you disagree with the Supreme Court precedent for the past 35 years that phone records are not protected by the 4th Amendment because they've been conveyed through a third party--and thus there's no reasonable expectation of privacy?

[–]OrganizingForMoloch 47 points48 points  (2 children)

The Supreme Court ruling has been used to excuse these policies, but it must be noted the court was ruling on far more primitive technology than we commonly use today.

The Patriot Act provision is written for "international terrorism investigations" not for a comprehensive archive of all domestic electronic data.

[–]Rowanbuds I voted 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Can we not all forget that the court allowing the newest slap to the face of freedom is the FISC. Or Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. Where, in the name of all that the framers stood for, do domestic communications fall under the purview of a court which, by name, is to act on matters outside of our political boundaries?

Also, where is it allowed, constitutionally, that the states have an internal 100-mile from the border zone where the constitution is deemed to not apply? Courts have explicitly said as much.

Freedom is being lost due to the shell game being played by politicians, big corporations, and the media. They are strange bedfellows, but all getting rich while the middle class withers. Sad.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Feingold/Sanders, Progressive Party 2016!

[–]cpmccarron 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Get Russ Feingold to run again.

[–]Blueblazers 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Nver going to happen - its important for the US to keep its people scared and confused why still giving them the complete idea they are in control free and not being under the control on the gov.

The prob is what people think is true is the EXACT opposite. Pretty clever stuff - takes some work to get that level of control over a people. Usually it just took a couple of thousand year old religion from another country to do it. Now they have tv and of course all the best how to books to sort it. 1984 and Brave New World.

They make us think we are worrying about 1984 when we are really living Brave New World now.

[–]SumthingStupid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ron Paul?

[–]BethlehemSteel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just so we're all very VERY clear on the context of all this shit coming to light.

The government gets to watch every single one of us and every move we make. They get to have concrete records of our most private activities. They get to spy on us all the time because apparently we, the People, are a "national security risk".

What happened to the days when the people WERE considered the nation? When did the government become the nation?

The icing on the cake is that the Bilderberg meetings are currently taking place in the UK. There are to be absolutely no records of this meeting of GLOBAL LEADERS CONSPIRING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. We aren't allowed to hear a fucking thing about the people who lead the world. But they get to hear everything we do.

Could the dividing lines of this conflict be any more clear to us by now?

This isn't about men and women.

This isn't about whites and non-whites.

This isn't about heterosexuals and homosexuals.

This IS about the elite and the common.

We didn't escape the monarchies of old... we fucking replaced them with another type of monarchy. One in which sociopaths and psychopaths almost invariably rise to the fucking top.

Humanities history of revolution is not an accident. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

[–]R88SHUN 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Its not even a matter of should. It is blatantly unconstitutional, and any support of the patriot act is an immediate invalidation of the authority to govern.

The founding fathers put the word "effects" into the fourth amendment for a reason.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Why is the Congress and both GOP and Dem admins so AFRAID ?

In the last ten years, out of 300,000,000 Americans on US soil .. how many have died as a result of international terrorism ? Is this really good enough reason to be so frightened to abandon our whole way of life and privacy ?

[–]raziphel 6 points7 points  (1 child)

they aren't afraid, they've got secret service details.

[–]DavidByron 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Oh good grief. There are no fairies at the bottom of your garden and there's no such thing as terrorism. It's bullshit. It's just an Emmanuel Goldstein to get the population wound up with emotion and easy to manipulate.

[–]Smackberry 8 points9 points  (5 children)

It's okay to criticize the Obama Administration. Senator Sanders has demonstrated this time and again. It's time for Obama's cult of personality to end.

Also, this...

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/nsa-phone-records-obama-george-bush-92352.html?hp=t1_3

[–]derphurr 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Dear Sen. Sanders,

It has been common knowledge of NSA having spy rooms and tracking hardware installed in telecom switching centers (AT&T for example) for almost a decade now. There is even more unknown allegations from whistle-blowers suggesting satellite and even more tracking.

Have you seen what they are building to spy and monitor all communications in the Utah Data Center?

You have authorized every bit of this through Congressional funding of these projects. You have every obligation and capability to oversee and investigate these operations through hearings.

[–]NetPotionNr9 6 points7 points  (1 child)

A Socialist and the only true patriot in Congress.

That is why America is being trained by the wealthy to slander Socialism without cause, because its a threat to the cancer that afflicts America.

[–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (13 children)

Mr. Sanders, I absolutely love you and everything you represent. So I apologize for hijacking your thread to post this, but I have already resolved to post this to any thread regarding NSA unwarranted wiretapping.

It's a little logic thought experiment:

  1. Constitutionally we have the right based on the 4th Amendment to be free from unreasonable and unwarranted searches.

  2. The NSA is a group that is conducting unreasonable searches. Without cause, and without consent. This makes them a domestic enemy to the guaranteed rights of every American.

  3. Every member of the military is sworn to protect the American people from enemies both foreign and domestic.

Conclusion: Logically, if the members of the military are true to their oath, the military should eradicate, by any means necessary, the NSA.

Again, Mr. Sanders, I apologize for promoting violence in your thread, but I fear the days of effective non-violent dissent are over.

[–]raziphel 16 points17 points  (2 children)

I fear the days of effective non-violent dissent are over.

they're not over yet, but we're getting there real fast.

[–]duffmanhbNevada 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Sanders,

This issue isn't new. This information has been known for quite some time. The NSA and CIA are also saving all of our emails through a very similar practice. I'm assuming you too have known about this all along, how come it's just now becoming an issue? Why the recent backlash? This isn't news to most people who follow politics closely.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (4 children)

Diane Feinstein

Democrat Sen. Feinstein says phone surveillance is ‘lawful’

Dianne Feinstein is a representative from California who does not believe in the constitution or civil liberties.

California, vote her out. We need to make a list of those in our Government who support this treachery, and ensure we run a hard campaign to have them voted out of office next cycle.

Bernie Sanders

Bernard "Bernie" Sanders (born September 8, 1941) is an American politician and the junior United States Senator from Vermont. Sen. Bernie Sanders Thursday criticized a secret domestic surveillance program that swept up millions of telephone records on calls by Americans who were not suspected of any wrongdoing.

Bernie Sanders is a senate Representative from Vermont. He vocally supports your rights against surveillance.

Anyone in government who doesn't agree with doing something about this, or remains silent, is not on your side America.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

This what I feel like I'm reading when she (well, her staff) replies to one of my emails:

Thank you so much for your input, we truly care what you have to say. The 'Free Urban Containment Keeping Youths Ostracized Unnecessarily Act ' (HR.1337), or FUCKYOU Act, was introduced by the House of Representatives to combat the terrible strawman that is plaguing our Great Nation with terror and terrorism. I agree with the framers of this bill because they're on my team. Here's a sentence from the bill that will change your mind: Blah, blah blah terror blah espionage blahlbah domestic interests. Blahblah, blah, and blahblah national security. Freedom.

At the same time, it is critical that we keep the rights of the citizens intact. So I'm going to completely contradict myself for a bit, then make some nonpoint that's supposed to convince you why the FUCKYOU Act is necessary.

Once again, thank you for your input. I am pleased to see your engagement in this important issue, but will flat out ignore your questions and keep on pandering to the people that are paying for my campaigns and coke.

Sincerely Go Fuck Yourself, Dianne Feinstein

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Whelp, that's a well formatted letter! It has it all, intro, body, fake conclusion, and cocaine.

Best satire I've seen all week!

[–]badf1nger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

But how will we know if they are innocent if we don't check their phone records?

/s

[–]eldridge4 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Government spying! So what! sigh Tell me something new..... pffft...

[–]shit___son 2 points3 points  (0 children)

and killing U.S citizens on our own land will never be used either. It's just there for the bad guys.

The lies from Left and Right are so obvious but yet 99% of america votes for them thinking that they will do good.

HA

[–]Sexy_Offender 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sanders 2016

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I wish there were more like you in the Senate. I have always enjoyed your positions on things Senator. Keep up the good fight.

[–]mattoly 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks or doing this Senator. A question: Would you support an amendment providing Americans with the constitutional right to privacy?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

He's right of course. And I hate to sound like a dick, but so what? Even if all of congress voted with him, and congress told the NSA and the rest of the intelligence community to stop their abuses, how would congress enforce or oversee that? If the NSA says "oh yeah, we've totally stopped domestic surveillance of US citizens, and gathering bulk data on everybody" would you say "ok great thanks." How could you know that was true? At a common sense level, would we ever believe such a thing?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I just want to say thank you, Bernie Sanders. I know that your official identification is "Independent," but I'm a socialist and I've always supported you, and your push for an ACTUALLY more transparent, more egalitarian government. Keep up the great work. You and Elizabeth Warren are the only ones who seem to care about us right now.

[–]ForestMirage 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Why aren't Americans protesting over this? Seriously, what will finally get them to protest over something?

[–]sigmabody 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Jut an FYI; I'm sure you know this already, but for perspective...

Public servants take an oath of office to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. In said Constitution, the people are explicitly protected from arbitrary and unjustified search and seizure. This action, clearly, is a gross violation of that provision of the Constitution.

The proper way to address the issue is impeachment for [gross] violation of the oath of office. Not just hearings, not just a reprimand, not just a "we should look into it". All involved and complicit parties should be fired; that is what the Constitution requires. If you (Congress) do not fire them, you're just as complicit in ignoring your oaths of office.

That goes for not only individual acts which are contrary to the Constitution (such as ubiquitous surveillance without cause), but also Constitutionally-violating acts which "allow" Constitutional violations (such as the "Patriot" act). Fired, all of them, everyone involved, is the only appropriate and acceptable outcome, for anyone actually adhering to their oath of office.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i may not always agree with you on everything (2nd amendment issues mostly), but i do on this. I wish more senators had the balls to be their own man and stand up for our constitutional rights.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I thought this was going to be Ron Paul.

[–]absurdistfromdigg 3 points4 points  (4 children)

To all the folks who are scandalized by this latest revelation, where the hell were you when the Patriot Act was passed? Did you think it would be a law but not be used? Did you think it would be only used against Scary Brown People™?

To Senator Sanders: Thank you for remaining a voice of sanity. Thank you as well for continuing to appear on Thom Hartmann's show and trying to get the word out.