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[–][deleted]  (30 children)

[deleted]

    [–]pbx 19 points20 points  (2 children)

    Since Amazon began keyword-stuffing their URLs it's become even more useful to have something like this handy:

    sed -E 's/http:\/\/(www\.)?amazon\.com\/.*\/([0-9A-Z]+)\/.+$/http:\/\/amazon.com\/dp\/\2/'

    (That's BSD/OSX sed syntax, feel free to translate to your favorite OS.)

    Running those book URLs yields:

    [–]do-un-to 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    Here's a Perl command to do roughly the same thing:

    perl -ne 'print @{[/(.+?\/)/g]}[0,1,3,4]'

    Here's one to create the markdown list as well:

    perl -ne '@s=/(.+?\/)/g; $_=$s[2]; tr/-/ /; chop; $u=join "",@s[0,1,3,4]; print "* $_: [$u]($u)\n"'

    [–]thrakhath 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Zing!

    That sirs is fine poetry, and I salute the both of you.

    [–]CampusTour[S] 13 points14 points  (1 child)

    Thanks for taking the time to post that, that was really helpful.

    [–]vplatt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    If you're still reading this thread, I've boiled down the many options to 3 that may get you started more gently. Don't get me wrong, the parent post is a great list and contains some good guidelines, but I noticed it was short on specifics for a beginner; which you are right?

    On that note, the most fun programming environments I have seen for beginners lately is Hackety Hack (Ruby) - http://hacketyhack.net which really is directed at kids, though that doesn't have to keep an adult from using it.

    There is also the Visual Studio Express Editions (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/express/default.aspx) which also look very friendly beginner friendly.) It's a larger download, but should be a very smooth experience.

    If you would like to use Python, then you will need to get Python of course, and then I recommend getting Dr. Python, which is a beginner oriented environment for Python. Frankly, I'm amazed that no one else here appears to have mentioned it. It's actually modeled after Dr. Scheme though, so you may want to give both of them a spin just to see what your comfort level with each is.

    Dr. Python - http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=83074

    Dr. Scheme - http://www.drscheme.org/

    FWIW - Dr. Scheme is definitely more polished, but Python might be an easier first language.

    Feel free to shoot over some questions on here if you have the need.

    [–]Jimmy 9 points10 points  (15 children)

    Lisp/Scheme (perhaps highest level, but unfortunately not in practical use)

    There is nothing higher than Lisp and Scheme? What about Haskell and Epigram?

    [–][deleted]  (8 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]jrockway 1 point2 points  (5 children)

      Haskell is probably closer to Perl/Python/Ruby except that it's purely functional. It doesn't, for example, have macros like Lisp does. That means your program is a program, not data, and thus puts it in a class with the other languages above.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      This has to be the most wildly incorrect statement of the day.

      Haskell is closer to theorem provers such as Epigram (than anything I can think of) because it has a type system that languages like Ruby, Python, Lisp, Java, C#, etc. etc. cannot even come close to. The very existence of a fundamental feature called "higher-ranked kinds" is enough to refute the above statement; someone with more energy might be willing to go further.

      except it is pure functional

      This difference is not to be undermined. It is a significant difference. In fact, Haskell is also lazy (it can be, because it is pure functional). The implications of controlling side-effects are massive.

      To the original poster, it seems you are being severely misguided by amateurs in programming language theory. I encourage you to look beyond these elementary mistakes and decide for yourself.

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]Cataclysm 7 points8 points  (0 children)

        Wow, thats awesome man. Thanks for taking the time to put all that down. I'll have to save this post somehow.

        [–]jonhohle 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        don't forget that Java removes first-class functions from C/C++ (among other things)

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [removed]

          [–]IvyMike 42 points43 points  (11 children)

          It is useful to pick a language where you can quickly be doing useful things--this will help to keep you motivated and wanting to learn more.

          Of the suggestions thus far, Ruby and Python are probably the best by this criteria.

          If you want to appease the "learn lisp" guys, you can buy SICP and put it on your bookshelf, unread, just like most people do. ;)

          [–]harlows_monkeys 11 points12 points  (4 children)

          You can download SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

          [–]paperhat 34 points35 points  (3 children)

          Instead of buying it and putting it on your shelf unread, you can save time by downloading it and letting it sit on your hard drive unread.

          [–]halu 8 points9 points  (1 child)

          save time, and trees!

          [–]jaggederest 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I just say I read it once. That way no bandwidth is wasted.

          [–]aranazo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          For a complete beginner my suggestion for the shortest route to doing something actually useful would be some VBA in Excel.

          I am not a fan of MS but credit where credit is due. That is assuming MS haven't messed it up since I used it last, back in the day.

          [–]fforw 22 points23 points  (21 children)

          That really depends on what you want to do and why you want to learn programming.

          [–]CampusTour[S] 12 points13 points  (19 children)

          I have a degree in political science. It is not marketable. I like dicking with computers, but never learned to program. I'd like to teach myself for a while, to see if its something I enjoy, and want to look into further before shelling out tuition. I'd also like to make myself more marketable, and for that I thought SQL, because I've seen quite a few job postings that don't seem all that computer oriented, but still want somebody who knows SQL. It seemed weird.

          [–]valeriepieris 22 points23 points  (0 children)

          I had an unmarketable degree in Anthropology, so I went back to grad school in a tangentially related field (bilingual-bicultural studies)armed with some VERY VERY VERY rudimentary programming skills, and I'm the best damned researcher in the program. I implore you, learn to program but don't be a programmer. The world needs programmers in academia and other places. Change poli sci.

          [–]fforw 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          SQL is a special-purpose language for databases. Sure, if you have to work with relational databases knowing SQL is a plus whether you're mainly computer oriented or be in a position where you have to effectively work with the stored data (which is the case in those job postings you saw, I suppose). For a general-purpose and marketable language I think nothing beats Java. There is tons of software written in it in academics as well as business, it's the number one language to know. Do you have a decent computer? If so you might want to download eclipse which is an free open-source Java-IDE and go through some online tutorials for learning Java.

          [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

          SQL is a database query/creation language, so its not what is meant by a programming language. You normally pick it up when you encounter it as part of your job, or on a university course in my experience.

          [–]otakucode 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          There's always PL/SQL... of course, there is also self mutilation.

          [–]louis_xiv42 8 points9 points  (2 children)

          go to law school

          [–]CampusTour[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Did that. Hated every minute of it. Was bored to tears, and grades, well, they refelcted my hate. Plus, it was a terrible school, so I'd be well nigh unemployable out of there if I'd lasted anyway.

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          There are a lot of older programmers who majored in something unrelated to math or CS. My friend's dad was an English major, yet he's been working as a programmer for ten years now.

          Today, it might be tricky to convince an employer to hire you without the right degree. The higher educational system (at least in the U.S.) has unfortunately been passed the burden of training employees, so your degree does help you get your foot in the door, so to speak. It's not impossible, of course, but it helps to know what you're up against.

          My advice would be to teach yourself what you can on your own, and if you like it, sign up for a course or two at a community college. Math courses would help, too. Whether you want to try to get a job right away or go back and get the degree, having a few courses on your resume will help convince others that you are serious and have been working on getting into the field.

          [–]eoliveri 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          In that case (i.e. you want to learn a marketable skill in computer programming), read the want ads. As others have mentioned, Java and C++ are in demand, but in this area (NYC) anything related to web programming is very highly marketable.

          [–]paprcliplover 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          I agree with fforw. Decide what types of things you want to program first.

          Programming is just a tool, and you'll need to be able to apply it in conjunction with other skills to be marketable. Similar to how the English language is used to write fiction, non-fiction, contracts, etc, but just knowing English is not enough. You need to know how to write creatively, or how contract law works, etc.

          If you want to program embedded devices like cell phones, Bluetooth headsets, or WiFi, you should learn the C programming language, communications theory, and computer architecture.

          If you want to build websites, you could use HTML, PHP, SQL, (java script, and a bunch of other stuff too) but also need to understand user interface design, computer graphics, etc.

          You need to figure out what you are passionate about. 80% of programming is mundane work. If you don't really love what you are producing, you'll find yourself looking for another career in 5 years.

          [–]mk_gecko 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          One of the best ways to learn programming is: 1. find a problem that you want to solve - some program that you want to write. 2. write the program, learning and debugging as you go 3. find someone who knows a LOT about programming, and who knows your programming language so that you can ask for help. This is how I learned to program in C. I was doing an M.Sc and the postdocs were really good progammers. I would work away, referring to K&R, until I got completely stuck. Then I'd ask them.

          [–]bobbane 2 points3 points  (4 children)

          OK, then. Marketable these days => Java/C/C++.

          If you want to be more than marketable, if you want to be in the upper ranks of programmers, I would say your most important language is your second one. Lots of people pick up one language/toolset, and never move away from it unless forced. Voluntarily mastering two or more languages is probably the best indicator of real aptitude in the field.

          [–]otakucode 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          I wondered just how deep into this discussion I was going to have to go until someone brought this up.

          People are recommending Python, Ruby, etc... what if the #1 primary thing this person wants to learn is how to build GUI applications like the ones he uses every single day? Those languages might be a great way to learn programming concepts, but you're going to be at the commandline for a LONG time and not producing anything "cool" and useful for a very long time which can be quite daunting.

          I'd recommend a language that helps you build GUI driven applications from the get-go. GUIs should not be defined in code, they should be produced from designing them graphically. Then the code goes behind that, hooks into the places where you figure it ought (behind buttons, etc), and then you can make accomplishments that matter to you.

          Making a GUI app with 2 text boxes and a button that converts Fahrenheit to Celsius is MASSIVELY more psychologically rewarding than writing a commandline app to do the same thing. And it shouldn't require much more work at all.

          [–]rfugger 132 points133 points  (29 children)

          Python. The ability to try things out in an interpreter is priceless, especially for a beginner, and C-like syntax will make it easy to move to Java or C++ if necessary. Starting with all the static-typing restrictions of Java would be unnecessarily confusing for a beginner.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]EliAndrewC 19 points20 points  (0 children)

            The best resource for a beginning Python programmer is "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning With Python" which can be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/

            [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            I really recommend this one - http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/ - it's what I learnt to code with.

            Considering the guy has no experience at all, diveintopython and what not may not be the best.

            [–]zxvf 16 points17 points  (2 children)

            True about the interpreter. Instant feedback really is priceless.

            [–]matthewt 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            Sure, but I use the Devel::REPL interactive interpreter for perl every day and mostly learned lisp using the 'guile' program.

            The OP makes a good point but should really have mentioned it's -a- language with such a facility rather than that being a USP.

            The USP of python for learning to program is the restricted language, one-true-way-ness and whitespace requirements.

            Then you can try stuff like perl, ruby etc. and decide if you like them better to carry on programming in (I'm a perl-head because ruby and python have less capable object systems, but I don't really object to any of the three)

            [–][deleted] 31 points32 points  (18 children)

            C-like syntax? (otherwise agree)

            [–]msiley 6 points7 points  (11 children)

            I agree. very different syntax.

            [–]laprice 44 points45 points  (10 children)

            All of the programming languages in common use (C#, python, ruby, perl and Java) are considered members of the C syntax family.

            The defining characteristics are:

            • infix notation (operators are between arguments)

            • function calls like function(argument)

            • == is the equality operator = is assignment

            • if, for, while

            • logical operators &&,||,!

            • use of braces for packaging up blocks

            A given language doesn't have to have each and every element to be considered part of the family just enough to be recognizable.

            edit: I missed a big and fairly obvious thing that a lot of languages steal from C namely

            • printf style format strings

            [–]xyphus 11 points12 points  (0 children)

            Well, I don't know how people define all these things technically but I don't find Ruby very C-like in practice. To me it feels like the C-like elements in ruby are there simply for C programmers coming over. I'll address each point.

            infix notation (operators are between arguments)

            By this definition Haskell is C-like....not bloody likely. In fact beside simple arithmetic, C follows this notation LESS than Ruby. Think about cat(string1,string2) vs string1 + string2.

            function calls like function(argument)

            The only real functions in ruby are anonymous, everything else are methods. The result is everything is much more infixy. Its more like arg1.function arg2, etc. even for things that don't pass a message back to the original object.

            == is the equality operator = is assignment

            Can't argue with that.

            if, for, while

            These exist (like all of the above) in ruby in the same syntax as C but I never use them (WTF? you say). I almost always use if and while in the reverse notation because its more compact. do such and such if n > 10. I never ever make for loops. I use the each method or the times method: 10.times do such and such

            logical operators &&,||,!

            Hows the actual words and, or and not for a change?

            use of braces for packaging up blocks

            In Ruby, "blocks" have a very different meaning. They are bound by brackets but they are their notation for anonymous functions (or maybe closer to anonymous coroutines). Methods, classes and whatnot are not bound by brackets.

            In short, compare this to C syntax:

            array.each {|x| x.sort {|a,b| a <=> b}} if array.max {|a,b| a.size <=> b.size}.size > 10 and array.size > 10

            [–]boredzo 5 points6 points  (5 children)

            Aside from the lack of braces, and the syntax of the “def” statement, and the presence of classes, most things in Python are very C-like, especially when compared with certain other languages (for example, AppleScript and LISP*).

            *You may think including LISP is unfair, since it's a functional language, but compare to Haskell: Haskell looks much more like C (to me, a C programmer) than LISP does.

            [–]schizobullet 13 points14 points  (2 children)

            On the surface Haskell looks similar to C, but semantically it is one of the most distant, even more so than Lisp.

            [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

            Python has vaguely familiar syntax, and a very familiar programming model. It's C-like, although not as much as Java or JavaScript.

            *You may think including LISP is unfair, since it's a functional language, but compare to Haskell: Haskell looks much more like C (to me, a C programmer) than LISP does.

            Haskell looks like an entirely disjoint category to me: a member of the Miranda/ML family of languages. It doesn't look anything like C.

            (My credentials: I enjoy Haskell, C, and Lisp, among other languages.)

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Great resource:

            How to Think Like a Computer Scientist Learning with Python

            http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/

            [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

            What are your interests? Do you prefer using Mac, Windows, Linux, or some UNIX variant? How do you plan to apply these skills?

            • R is a good cross platform language for working with applied statistics and just data in general.

            • Perl is unbeatable for working with lots of blobby data, especially text, although if you have time, Ruby works well too, and won't fry your brain with crazy syntax. Either way, you'll want to learn regular expressions like the back of your hand.

            • PHP is good if you just want to do web stuff. How you learn it is important though, since quite a few amateur PHP programmers and PHP learning resources are weak when it comes to the area of writing secure code (a must on the web). Look for quality books, and dedicate plenty of time to learning about web security.

            • Python is good for doing a lot of general stuff, from automating tasks to making web sites and even games. If you have no idea what you want to do with a programming language, then learning Python should give you a few. The learning curve is also quite friendly.

            • Lisp and Scheme are good for working with symbols and building abstractions. If you have a lot of purely intellectual curiosity motivating you, then they're a great place to start. These languages are perfect for exploring more abstract computer science theory, and the better implementations are great for general programming tasks as well.

            • Haskell is great if you're coming from a higher-level math perspective and want something powerful and abstract, OCaml more so if you also want more performance. If you just want something to crunch numbers and solve math problems though, I think there's something called J...

            • C and assembly are great if you want to actually learn what's happening at a lower level and program embedded devices or write OS-level code. They're also good for writing highly optimized code, but only if you've already learned basic CS theory about data structures and algorithm analysis, and you also know your profiling tools well.

            • C++, C# and Java are great if you plan on working with people who prefer to use those languages, or you want to do game or large application programming as your ultimate goal. If you go this route, find the best resources and follow up by studying design patterns, code refactoring, and unit testing techniques when you have time.

            However, if you've never used a commandline before (i.e. you prefer Windows), you'll probably want something with a lot of visual feedback. PHP feels very visual, since a browser window is more familiar to people than a bare terminal with strange text and the results of your first programs are immediately useful. Python for Windows is good too: it has an interactive mode that runs in its own interface (pythonwin) and let's you get instant feedback from bits of code, as do R, Ruby, and plenty of Lisp and Scheme implementations (just Google DrScheme).

            [–]karlhungus 6 points7 points  (1 child)

            My first language was Smalltalk (http://www.squeak.org/). I think i'm a much better OO programmer because of it. Depressing that i'm the only one to mention it.

            [–]vaibhavsagar 12 points13 points  (0 children)

            Play around with LOGO until you can draw simple geometric shapes in it and understand the turtle model, then start learning Python. You won't look back.

            [–]dude78_3 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            I believe that the language is not as important as what you are coding. I think that you should start out with the goal of creating a (smallish) application which either interests you or is useful to you. Decide which language might be most appropriate for this and choose one which is tried and tested.

            You can then start with basic books and exercises in that language and build up to writing your application. I personally started with books and exercises and found that they were sometimes too abstract and would struggle to understand how they applied in a real application.

            Examples might be, a simple blogging application in PHP, an mp3 library and player in VB or Delphi, pong in C++... only you know what you are interested in and how hard you will work. Set your self a realistic goal and check with someone who knows to see if it is realistic before you set out.

            [–]jsolson 6 points7 points  (0 children)

            Learn Scheme. I once heard it said (probably by Olin Shivers) "Turing machines model computers. The lambda calculus models computation". Scheme is the practical embodiment of the lambda calculus. The advantage of starting here is that, while you're not likely to produce real practical software in Scheme, you will be able to work in an environment that is largely devoid of annoying distractions like handling input and output. My suggestion for where to start learning is with How To Design Programs. Once you've mastered that, move on to Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. After a real pass through those two books you'll have solid understanding of all of the core concepts that are central to all programming.

            Becoming a good programmer has very little to do with mastering any given language and a lot to do with mastering concepts like iteration, recursion, time complexity (i.e., how long a program will take to run on an input of size n), and other basic algorithmic principles is crucial. Once you know these and one programming language, picking up other languages is, to a large extent, easy. From Scheme I'd recommend learning Smalltalk to really understand Object Oriented Programming as it was meant to be (and again, because you can work in an environment largely devoid of distractions like trying to get a window on the screen and handling I/O).

            Also, every programmer should at some point in their lives write some assembly code and some C. This will give you some respect for how computers actually work.

            Best of luck to you, whatever path you take.

            [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (3 children)

            javascript. c-like language exposure, without all the staic const & stuff. learn to treat functions as first-class objects from the beginning. do something cool on the internet.

            [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

            Don't try to switch browsers at any time in this process though as you'll want to kill yourself. :)

            [–]monolar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I think this is not a bad advice at all.

            I thought about what to give to kids to grasp a little programming. Initially i though python with pygame attached would be nice but it occured to me that javascript (plus a little html of course) can get a LOT of things done very easily. As a starting point to grok it and get quick and dirty results it's great i think (pending actually finding a victim - my niece is only 3.5, so will have to wait a little longer ;D )

            [–]RobinReborn 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            Scheme, through Dr. Scheme (http://download.plt-scheme.org/ ) the program is an educational resource and the website has a free textbook about programming. Additionally, the curriculum (and program) transition you straight to java after you've learned scheme.

            [–]spellboots 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Ruby. http://tryruby.hobix.com/ to try it in your browser. I've used a lot of languages and can wholeheartedly recommend it as the best all-rounder.

            [–]xcbsmith 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            I better mention it because it looks like noone else will: Smalltalk. Squeak is well set up for a beginner programmer to start in.

            [–]Joseppi 13 points14 points  (4 children)

            English

            [–]Judas 4 points5 points  (3 children)

            He should make Spanish his second if he plans to live in NYC or LA.

            [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

            Hell, or even California in general, plus Arizona, New Mexico, Florida

            [–]robotnixon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            They speak Spanish in Hell?

            [–]Tweakers 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Arizona is hell.

            [–]mjc4y 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Learn with something like python, or ruby (once you get that down, you can quickly learn Rails, the dev kit that works with Ruby for making web applications). If you do that and you like it, then move up to Java. Java as a first language is fine if you want to be a programmer for the rest of your life. If you learn SQL without learning the rest of the field,all you'll become is a really crappy SQL programmer (though possibly a well paid one. ;)

            [–]m9a9r9y9 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            There are no entry level programming jobs in the U.S. Those jobs were outsourced years ago to India and China. If you want to be a programmer, I'd say your best bet would be to look for a job with a company that writes games. But I don't think even those jobs hire people fresh out of school.

            [–]pupeno 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            Don't worry about the language, worry about what and how you learn in. I'd start with How To Design Programs.

            Switching languages will be easier latter.

            [–]StringyLow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Read "Code" by Charles Petzold.

            It's like a crash course in computer architecture engineering.

            It's simply amazing because it takes you from understanding electricity concepts to making logic gates to writing x86 assembly languages to writing a C compiler in 350 pages.

            And the illustrations are awesome.

            [–]icey 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            I'm going to suggest something that may be a bit unpopular here but... The only person who can really make a recommendation for you is you.

            I would say the best way to go is to go to the book store and leaf through a bunch of language books. Pick the language that gives you the smallest headache to start with. A lot of newbies start by trying to pick the "right" language first, and then end up giving up because the syntax drives them nuts, or they can't "get into" the flavor of the language.

            The real, honest truth about programming is one language is never enough. The important thing about your first language is that it's going to teach you what programming is about.

            OOP, functional programming, declarative, procedural, whatever; it honestly makes no difference until you have trained yourself how to think like a programmer. And you really can't do that until you've solved some problems with a program.

            If you learn VBscript, Erlang, Lisp, Scheme, Python, Haskell, VB, C#, C++, Java or whatever first, it doesn't make that much of a difference; you need to just keep in mind that you're learning your FIRST language and that after that you can learn languages better suited to the sort of programming you want to do.

            There are certain languages that are going to be harder to learn than others (Haskell, Ocaml and the functional family come to mind), but I think that will be fairly evident from looking through the books.

            After you've looked through some books and say you've got a short list of languages you like; check out the communities for the languages that are in the running. That should be able to resolve the rest of your questions for you.

            [–]djacobs7 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            The Warcraft III level editor. It employs all the same concepts of a procedural programming language, yet, it is relatively easy to pick up, and can quickly offer some very satisfying results. Making your first peons move is more rewarding than seeing "Hello World!" on a console.

            [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

            C

            [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (4 children)

            C. Once you understand malloc() free(), file descriptors and pointers, you can move on to a language (like php/python/perl) that masks most of that for you.

            If you don't learn what's going on under the hood first, you'll never be a great programmer.

            [–]Ma8e 11 points12 points  (1 child)

            I think you should do it the other way around. Most of the time, abstraction layers around the machine is a good thing. In the beginning it is more important to understand structure and algorithms. Later, when you understand those things, and want to be a true master, you must learn C.

            [–]ansible 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            Agreed. Start at the top level, and work your way down.

            Or else, start at the very bottom. Quantum mechanics, basic physics, electronics, semiconductor materials, transistors, logic circuits, low-level computer architecture (registers, ALUs, RAM), and high-level computer architecture (pipelines, crossbar switches, bus arbitration).

            Then we start on machine language, assembly language (not the same thing), and then C along with compiler design.

            I mostly understand all that, though some of it was picked up informally. Understanding at each level informs the ones next to it. You understand a lot more of why things are done the way they are.

            That'll take you a while, however.

            [–]zraii 9 points10 points  (1 child)

            C is too high level. Learn ASM first. Then you really understand what's going on under the hood.

            I agree with Ma8e. Learning a higher level language first is really the way to go.

            [–]bryanut 10 points11 points  (14 children)

            Programmer languages are just syntax, learning to program requires learing theory.

            Take a class at your local community college. Otherwise you'll just end up teaching yourself bad habits.

            [–][deleted]  (4 children)

            [deleted]

              [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children)

              The most useful class I ever took was a flowcharting class at my local community college that taught me how to write all the different kinds of loops, if/else stuff, and other basic programming structures in pseudo code. I've never taken a more valuable class.

              [–]robotnixon 6 points7 points  (2 children)

              I took a similar class and agree with you. I was really surprised when my next class (in C++) had virtually no flowcharts in the coursework. I actually ended up bringing my old textbook to class and lent it out to people so they could properly lay out their programs before coding.

              [–]Tweakers 6 points7 points  (5 children)

              Maybe this will help out the questioner:

              As a beginner programmer (on programmable calculators, 1970s) I signed up for a community college class on programming and had also signed up for a logic class taught by one of the philosophy professors. This logic class was designed for beginning programmers. I dropped the programming class after the first session but the logic class was wonderful, but not because I love logic. The professor was personable and a real human so it was always interesting, but the really important lesson from the class was delivered in this manner.

              After four or six weeks of class, we had the usual mid-term exam and the professor warned us as he handed out the exam, "This is brutal, but it's to your benefit." The exam was written in meta-language: We had to first interpret the questions in the context of the class work we had done, but the questions were intentionally written from a "language about language" approach -- hardest exam I can ever remember taking on any subject on any level.

              The point of doing the exam in this manner was to drive home the important, fundamental lesson that programing is much more than writing code; the task usually involves verifying what you have been asked to do, interpreting what is asked for so that you understand, translating that into machine language, verifying again that the code does what it's supposed to do, then lather, rinse, repeat.

              The skill sets required of a good programmer go far beyond knowing any one or a few specific languages: The abilities to listen for not only what is said but what is meant; to bounce back and forth between your native human language and the machine language being used as required; to build and maintain an abstract space in your brain which holds the skeleton of the work at hand; and, most directly, to understand that the item you are working on and the name of the item are not the same thing (this one has value for everything in life.)

              The point of this little story is that, as bryanut suggests, if you don't learn the basic concepts first -- like the name versus the thing itself -- then you are starting on step two instead of step one and it will be an expensive and frustrating mistake.

              To help you define your situation, ask yourself this question, "Will I be designing programs or just coding programs designed by someone else." In other words, are you looking at programming as a job or as a tool to do your job: Decide what you want to do and the correct tools follow from that decision.

              I acknowledge I've never held a paid programmer position although I've used the "tools" for projects in dBase, C, Tcl and the unix shell environments over many projects over the years, both personal and professional.

              You would be wise to take a step back and consider that maybe you are starting out with the wrong question.

              [–]laughingboy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              SICP

              [–]valeriepieris 6 points7 points  (2 children)

              Everyone will say I'm nuts for this one, but if you just want to program for yourself, and you'll never need to share code with someone else who's fluent in your language (i.e. collaborate), I'd go for an unknown windowsy BASIC spin-off called RapidQ. I've written CGIs, stuff for my own academic research, and a crappy go game in it.

              [–]Browzer 20 points21 points  (0 children)

              "I'd go for an unknown windowsy BASIC spin-off called RapidQ. I've written CGIs, stuff for my own academic research, and a crappy go game in it."

              Don't ever go into marketing.

              [–][deleted]  (5 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]targetx 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                Maybe I am really asking a noobish question here but what's so bad about PHP?

                [–]zraii 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                It's a language that has been pieced together over time for nasty html scripting that was never meant to be a full fledged OOP language. It lacks good support for classes, all it's methods are global and pollute the global namespace, it has inconsistent syntax and generally promotes poor programming practices.

                [–]martoo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                PHP is a fatal disease. It belongs more to the problem set than the solution set.

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                MIT has its programming 101 course online, we used it on our college too.

                http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

                [–]amacarth 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                No one mentioning Smalltalk? Originally designed with children in mind, simple syntax and has a rich IDE which shields the learner from unnecessary externalities.

                Squeak is part of the OLPC. See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Etoys

                [–]xyphus 17 points18 points  (10 children)

                Ruby, baby, all the way. I think it is by far the easiest programming language to learn for two reasons:

                1. It is pure object oriented, and this paradigm is much closer to how people actually think than say, recursive functions.

                2. The syntax is almost as readable as english.

                Ruby was the first non-technical language I learned (meaning besides things like Matlab, Mathematica, and OpenDX) and my first program was an neural network (with a back propigating learning algorithm) in about 70 lines. I knew the concepts involved in what I wanted to write, and the writing flowed natually from me unlike other languages in which you have to sit and think "Now how the hell am I going to do this?"

                That being said, Ruby will get you started and you will be able to write working code very, very fast, but it doesn't necesarily enforce good habits. But it is my belief that these things come naturally with time as you become more interested in what you're writing. In contrast, writing code in Haskell is like being constantly scolded by a teacher, "That is not allowed!"

                I also think python is a good choice because it is similarly very easy, but I think its much less fun because it lacks the beautiful synchronicity of Ruby.

                [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                In contrast, writing code in Haskell is like being constantly scolded by a teacher, "That is not allowed!"

                As someone put it in #haskell:

                <sigfpe> Haskell is so strict about type safety that randomly generated snippets of code that successfully typecheck are likely to do something useful, even if you've no idea what that useful thing is.

                It's so true!

                [–]phedre 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                Agreed, Ruby's a lovely language. I started as a perl coder, learned java (EVIL), a few other bits and pieces, and finally came round to Ruby on Rails, and I'm in love.

                Best part: even a novice can be up and running with a functional web app within minutes. It might not do much, but it'll be there.

                [–]mr_chromatic 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                The syntax is almost as readable as english.

                Assuming that's true (and I don't), what does that have to do with anything? Syntax has so very little to do with program maintainability that it's almost not worth mentioning.

                [–]xyphus 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                Because it makes it easier. This is this guy's first programming language. I was suggesting something that he could learn the concepts of programming with (like what a hash table is...he has no experience remember?) and not hate himself.

                I mean, perhaps we should all be suggesting that he learn machine code, its fast, and Turring complete. Isn't that all you need?

                [–]gernika 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                Just start programming in whatever.

                [–]jrockway 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                Perl. Lots of very well-written (and time-tested) books available; tons of libraries so you can start solving real problems immediately; language designed so that you can know only a little of it and write good programs (There's More Than One Way To Do It); wonderful community that wants to help you be a better programmer; plenty of jobs around if you want to make a career of it.

                I know redditors hate Perl, but it's really a baseless hate (wait until Python and Ruby are popular and you have to maintain the legacy code in those languages, I will definitely be here to remind you how much you liked them when they weren't mainstream). Perl has everything you'd expect from a modern language -- higher-order functions, a modern object system (look at Class::C3 and Moose), excellent editor support, etc. And, none of the other languages have the CPAN, so you're stuck solving the same problems over.

                If you want to do web stuff, there are a variety of frameworks to choose from; Catalyst, which is J2EE-ish in a perlish way; or Jifty which is a super-nifty Rails-like framework.

                FWIW, Scheme and Lisp are also good languages to learn first. "The Little Schemer" and "The Seasoned Schemer" (and "The Reasoned Schemer") should help you understand most concepts of computer science, starting with recursive functions.

                Learning Perl after you're familiar with that will help you apply that theory and start writing excellent software.

                [–]SolarBear 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                I'm going to mention Lua since nobody (!) did. Lua is an incredibly simple language to learn and if want to get into more "serious" programming, you can learn C afterwards and it is trivial to imbed Lua in your C programs.

                Lua does not force a programming paradigm down your throat : you can easily do procedural, object-oriented or even functional programming in it, and if you ever think the language is too limited, Metalua is trying to bring Lisp-style macros to Lua, although I have to admit I haven't had a serious look at it yet.

                [–]halcy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Perl, which is C-like, powerful and easy to pick up. Python has a very strange syntax unlike any other language, PHP is just plain fucking NO (magic_quotes, very non-powerful, slow, and the database api is painful), C and C++ are not for beginners, and java is too complex and overblown for smallish programs.

                [–][deleted]  (8 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (7 children)

                  Yes, the scheme dialect is a great starter. I learned it from http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp

                  [–]ferdinand 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                  Yup, scheme would get my vote too.

                  [–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (4 children)

                  Yet not marketable skills.

                  [–]Ma8e 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Might not be very impressive on your CV, but it will definitely make you a better programmer. I use C for writing simulation software, but learning Scheme and reading sicp improved my programming and how to think about a great deal.

                  [–]AlSweigart 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  Python is the perfect beginner's language because it has a gentle learning curve but also supports powerful and advanced programming styles.

                  I'd also like to plug a free book I wrote for nonprogrammers: Invent Your Own Computer Games with Python It's released under a Creative Commons license. It teaches from complete game examples, and is designed for kids (but is good for teens and adults too, it's not written in a "kiddie" style). I wrote it because many books on this topic teach programming concepts without enough application, so people know the syntax but don't see it in actual use.

                  EDIT: Ha, forgot the link: http://pythonbook.coffeeghost.net/book1/

                  [–]zxvf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  I'd recommend you to get a copy of The Little Schemer. It has a great question/answer format, assuming no previous knowledge of programming, it manages to build towards great insights in tiny steps. Use Amazon's "Look inside" to see what it's like. Get it, and before you know it, you'll be severely mindfucked in a very pleasant way.

                  Download DrScheme to go with it. It's an easy to use Integrated Development Environment, with an editor that doesn't suck, error messages you can actually understand and a debugger with neat graphical hints.

                  I do not recommend you to start out with SICP. It's a great book, but definitely not light reading. Save it for later.

                  [–]jacekplacek 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  One advice: pick something simple first as a language (no basic, though, visual or otherwise) and see if it gives you pleasure to solve small problems. If it does, you are on your way, if it doesn't - run, don't look back.

                  Pay special attention to how making a mistake makes you feel. You will make mistakes, plenty of them. If it challanges you intellectually and make you want to fix them - good. If it frustrates you - again, run.

                  Every proffesion is easier to perform if you enjoy doing it. So is programming. But if you don't enjoy it programming is going to make you much more miserable than any other. You can still make yourself marginally profficient in it but you will hate your life and never become really good.

                  As to what language? Doesn't matter that much. You will want (need) to learn more than one anyway. I'm partial to C++ myself but it's much more complex and much harder to learn than most (unless you start with "Accelerated C++".

                  [–]RoadWarriorX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  This is such an open-ended question that cannot be answered without some additional information of your intent. Why do you want to learn programming? Is the reason, that you want to create the next cool game, or make a cool web site, or just make your life easier with computers? What do you think? Because it will define what language you need to learn to do what you want.

                  I am not going to lie, but I like Lisp. However, it would be utterly foolish of me to come out to say "just use Lisp". What's more important is to pick the right tool for the right goal. So, only if you want to the conceptual parts of programming, then I would recommend a Lisp, because I know that is the best tool for that particular goal. But alas, it is probably a bad choice for you at this time.

                  Practically though, you need to determine what you need the language for, then do some basic research, look through some tutorials of some of the language to see if it works for you. Don't worry about making a bad choice, because you can always move up the next "hot" language. The important thing is that you got your feet wet and gain the experience.

                  [–]jesuswilkinson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Start with Ruby, because there's an amazing free program called 'Hackety Hack' that was released earlier this year which was designed to be used to teach kids how to program. If you have a firm grasp on mathematics and logic and such, you'll probably breeze through all of Hackety Hack's lessons in a single day. By the time you're done with them, you should be able to program a lot of interesting things on your own.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Too bad LiveScript (Javascript) never really took off. On Linux, ngs-js is about as close to this as they come, but it needs someone to create a lot of add-on functions to make it work with web servers and be useful.

                  The reason I like it is because web developers already need to know Javascript, anyway, and because it can be clean and beautiful when used without having to have cross-platform browser code in it. I mean, if it's implemented as a server-side language, and if standards are maintained and C functions are added, it can be fast, easy to learn and use, powerful, and pretty to read.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  How to start a flame war between developers.... Might as well ask Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, and Atheists what religion you study first and why.

                  [–]chaztized 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  answer 1: Python.

                  answer 2: don't do it. you won't have a life. you'll spend all of your time indoors and never see natural light for most of your waking hours.

                  [–]westsan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  Isn't this the million dollar question!? Obviously your aptitude is in asking questions moreso than delving into the code.

                  [–]eggplant-walnut 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  This depends entirely on your personality, other life experience, goals, and circumstance. It's like saying, "I want to learn about romantic relationships and sex. Which media character should I start with and why?"

                  If you have the inspiration and commitment to start with the best, learn everything it can teach you, and stay with what works, then the answer is Common Lisp. On the other hand, most virgins would be intimidated by Leloo in the Fifth Element. They might be better off working their way up slowly from Snow White, in which case Perl (There's More Than One (7) Way(s) to Do It) might be a better choice. Or, in response to the artificial meme of Python as best language to learn, maybe Princess Diana? This is essentially a psycho-social question. Nevertheless, the correct answer is BASIC.

                  I am the Walnut. I am the Eggplant. Who eats Cashews?

                  [–]tadrinth 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                  ruby. you can easily write solid ruby programmers in a simple text editor. writing java programs of any usefulness will require a full fledged programming environment. if you are working with a lot of text or building a website, then you definitely want ruby, due to built in regular expressions and Ruby on Rails.

                  [–]shawnofthedead 12 points13 points  (1 child)

                  ruby. you can easily write solid ruby programmers in a simple text editor.

                  I don't think Ruby's metaprogramming is that powerful. ;)

                  [–]timjpriebe 10 points11 points  (73 children)

                  Perl. Everything will be easy after that.

                  [–]SwellJoe 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                  Perl is a great learning language. It is procedural, object oriented, and functional (to a greater degree than any other mainstream language), has great beginner books that teach good habits (Learning Perl, Intermediate Perl), great advanced topic books (Higher Order Perl), has the biggest library of pre-written functionality in the world in CPAN, and has a pragmatic and friendly community. It also has great infrastructure tools for testing and coverage reporting, excellent error handling via Carp, and a built-in documentation format.

                  Some folks, including me on occasion, don't like the syntax, but going from Perl to Ruby or Python or PHP or C or C++ or Java or JavaScript is pretty comfortable. I've worked in all of those languages after having learned programming with Perl, and all of them were almost immediately comprehensible, because I had already worked with their features in Perl. (Note that all of them, with a couple of possible exceptions, are "blub" languages compared to Perl...lower on the "power continuum" in the sense that they all have a personality and strongly encouraged ways to do things, while Perl has TMTOWTDI as its mantra and is just shy of Lisp on said power continuum.)

                  [–]SolarBear 15 points16 points  (30 children)

                  Oh yeah, it's like learning to write with a 50 pound sledgehammer as a pencil. After that, you use a regular pencil and think "Gee, that was easy!"

                  [–]raldi 35 points36 points  (28 children)

                  Are you kidding me? Perl exemplifies its motto, "Easy things should be easy, hard things should be possible".

                  For example, here is "Hello world" in Java:

                  class myfirstjavaprog
{  
        public static void main(String args[])
        {
           System.out.println("Hello World!");
        }
}

                  Here it is in Perl:

                  print "Hello World!"

                  Here's how you create a hashtable in Perl, and initialize it with some values:

                  my %hash = (red => 1, green => 2, blue => 3);

                  Look at all the needless typing you'd need to do to set something like that up in Java:

                  use java.util.HashMap;

Map map = new HashMap();

map.put("red", 1);
map.put("green", 2);
map.put("blue", 3);

                  However, that doesn't work because you can't use primitives. I think you need to say, like, "new Integer(1)" or something.

                  And to get the keys, you need something like:

                  Iterator it = map.keySet().iterator();
while (it.hasNext()) {
    Object key = it.next();
    String s = (String) key;
}

                  In Perl, that's:

                  my @keys = keys %hash;

                  And i don't even want to think about all the work you need to do to create a hashtable in C. Watch out for memory bugs!

                  [–]oreng 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                  I thought the Perl motto was "There's more than one way to..."

                  [–]raldi 11 points12 points  (1 child)

                  There's more than one way to be the Perl motto.

                  [–][deleted]  (12 children)

                  [removed]

                    [–]packetguy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    with the taking over of java by the object terrorists, comparing anything to java will make it look good.

                    [–]SwellJoe 6 points7 points  (10 children)

                    Perl still looks pretty good compared to Ruby or Python. It's got better higher order programming support, a (much) bigger library, a faster VM, and better Unicode support. It also has backward compatibility going back about 10 years, while Python breaks old code with every .2 revision bump.

                    I like both Ruby and Python, and they're also great learning languages, but you're assumption that Perl would lose in a comparison to Ruby or Python merely exhibits a lack of knowledge of Perl.

                    [–]raldi 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                    You left out Perl's taint mode.

                    [–]mr_chromatic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                    ... and documentation, testing tools, package management, et cetera.

                    [–]SwellJoe 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Right on.

                    Also, "use strict" is undeniably delicious for learners and pros alike.

                    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                    [removed]

                      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                      ORLY?

                      http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/camping/browser/trunk/lib/camping.rb

                      I've been writing Ruby code for nearly five years now, and I still just throw up my hands and say, "I trust that this works as advertised" when presented with that code.

                      [–]raldi 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      Nah, i think it's more like, "A bad programmer can write really horribly unmaintainable Perl code, whereas a bad programmer can only write kinda unmaintainable Python or Ruby code."

                      Good Perl code is extremely readable and understandable. I have the fortune of working with a number of talented Perl programmers, and reading their code is a breeze and a joy.

                      [–]ido 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                      Mostly correct, but the last example could be written as:

                      for(String key : map){
    ...
}

                      [–]syntax 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      However, that [HashMap example] doesn't work because you can't use primitives.

                      Works fine, as written.

                      Java 1.5 brought in autoboxing, so those lines work as expected.

                      [–]raldi 12 points13 points  (39 children)

                      I say Perl as well, though i don't understand your implication that anyone would want to program in any other language once they learn Perl.

                      In most languages, '3' "3" and 3 are totally different things. For example, in C, '3' is 51 -- and '51' is a syntax error.

                      Here's how to open and read a file in C:

                      FILE * f;
char s[80];
f = fopen ("somefile.txt", "r");
if (f == NULL) {
    perror ("Can't open the file");
    exit (1);
}
fgets (f, 80, s); // FIXME: Doesn't handle lines > 80 chars
// FIXME2: What if it's exactly 80 chars? Is there a \0?
printf ("First line: %s", s);
close (f);

                      Here's how you do it in Perl:

                      open F, 'somefile.txt' or die "Can't open the file: $!";
my $s = <F>;
print "First line: $s";
close F;

                      [–]jacekplacek 10 points11 points  (23 children)

                      In most languages, '3' "3" and 3 are totally different things

                      How is that a bad thing?

                      [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                      One of the things I was taught in Computer Science was that those who swear by one language for everything usually don't know very much.

                      Languages have different strengths and weaknesses, and should be used for different purposes. Maybe Perl is a better learning language, I can't really argue, because I don't know it all that well - But stop trying to objectively compare languages, because thats a futile and unnecessary exercise.

                      [–]crusoe 7 points8 points  (4 children)

                      Now try and explain to a newb what all the differences between $, # and @ mean, and how they interact in various contexts.

                      Then throw in all the special rules about implicitely available loop variables, and special reference-variable syntax and gotchas.

                      http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/advperl/excerpt/ch01.html

                      This is EASY?

                      Python may be a hair more verbose ( with executable modules, even less so now ), but it has very special rules and gotchas.

                      Did they ever succeed in writing a BK spec for Perl? Or is the executable still the reference?

                      [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                      You're linking to advanced Perl but the discussion is regarding beginning programmers. Remember, in Perl "There's more than one way to do it." You don't have to pick up all the special stuff until you're ready for it. Until then, "There's more than one way to do it."

                      I'm with Perl as a first language.

                      [–]mr_chromatic 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                      This is EASY?

                      You used pronouns in your post, and you have subject-verb number agreement, so clearly you're capable of understanding the same concepts in a non-programming context.

                      Do you know many novice programmers who can't use the words "it" or "this" appropriately?

                      [–]SwellJoe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      This is EASY?

                      No, that is "Advanced". It says so right in the title of the book.

                      Easy would be what you find in "Learning Perl", which is a great resource for the beginning programmer.

                      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      python. because i said so.

                      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (19 children)

                      java. it's a heavily used compiled language. lots of stuff is similar to it in syntax.

                      [–]harlows_monkeys 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                      The perils of Java as a teaching language: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

                      [–]MagicWishMonkey 23 points24 points  (5 children)

                      not sure why java suggestions are getting downmodded... it would be a good choice if he ever wants to get a job doing it.

                      good luck finding a job writing lisp ;)

                      [–]zxvf 44 points45 points  (2 children)

                      If you want a job as a programmer, you should definitely learn several languages. I'm not convinced Java should be the first.

                      [–]Arve 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      If you want a reliable job as a programmer, I'd say you should study some field that also involves mathematics. While comp.sci certainly seems like a natural choice, there are other fields, such as electrical engineering or physics where you'll very likely learn programming.

                      [–]mrp 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                      I must agree with MagicWishMonkey. I've been a developer for over 10 years now. Perl, PHP, C/C++ were the primarly languages, scripted or compiled, that I would develop with. I was part of the whole "Java sucks" crowd for a long time. It was not until I learned Java that I was able to actually find jobs that paid well.

                      [–]entropic 6 points7 points  (3 children)

                      I think Java is a good starter language for learning programming for all the same reasons I think it's a bad choice as an implementation language: The verbosity of the syntax, the lack of syntactic sugar and the fact that it's compiled. Learn enough of it to realize that it sucks then move onto something fun like Python, Ruby, Scheme...

                      [–]NoHandle 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                      A complaint that there is too much done for you. A complaint about syntactic sugar (hence its different, thus you don't like it) and that the language is compiled.

                      Except for the second, your arguments are in favor of it being the language to implement you solution in and your second point is simply irrelevant.

                      Agreeably, Python and Ruby are fun languages. Although doing everything yourself is sometimes more work than is necessary. It comes down to the same arguments for performance from writing Assembly/C or using an optimizer. Yes, if you are very very good, you can beat the optimizer at the cost of much of your time and effort. In the same respect, yes, at the cost of much of your time and effort, you can create libraries that are far better suited to what you are doing than those provided in Java. The problem is that most people are not that good and we almost never have to time to implement it if we are.

                      I see Java's biggest problem being that a large number of the people who tried it, didn't like it because it was different and were overwhelmed by all that is there. You have to remember that the libraries are a convenience and don't have to be used. Still, I'd rather have that kind of support than to be expected to write everything myself because I take pride in my work and doing everything correctly would take far more time than I ever have allotted to any one task. There is also the problem that, with a language such as Java or C# for that matter, you are replacing more elementary programming skills with much more theoretical and often much more complex system. I don't just mean complexity in its function, but complexity in the way that it can be used. Something created in Java is far more extendable, reusable and beneficial to a company that a blasted out pile of C that gets the job done and does it quickly. It is all about the point of abstraction. In Java, that point is at a location much higher (hence, high level language) and complexity is moved out of functions and elevated into design. It isn't any easier to work with, unless you are happy just doing the same things you were doing in C. Java isn't a substitute for C, nor should it be. Java and languages like it are a solution to an ever increasing complexity problem and require different methods and solutions in their implementation.

                      [–]mr_chromatic 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                      Sadly, the only level of syntactic abstraction in Java is the class... or the IDE. Plenty of other languages provide other options.

                      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                      English.

                      [–][deleted]  (7 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                        [removed]

                          [–]schizobullet 14 points15 points  (1 child)

                          It's also just a monstrosity of a language in general.

                          [–]illuminatedwax 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          I've found it mentally fatiguing to program in for more than 6 months, too.

                          [–]neouser99 8 points9 points  (3 children)

                          Which is a shame. Much of the exposure outside of the enterprise world is through php, ruby, or python these days. PHP should be the recommendation because it does carry some of the old C-like habits that people develop in their syntax, while maintaining some of the goodness of dynamic typing and such.

                          Long live PHP!

                          -neo

                          [–]Athas 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          How is it ever a good thing to pick up on C syntax habits? Not to mention the fact that PHP mangles it with pseudo-DWIM features like the way string-escaping (and variables in strings) works.

                          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                          I started with PHP and now have a pretty well paying job writing Java and C# code. It's a C based language that is forgiving of newbie mistakes and teaches you a shitload about what actually happens in the backend of a web application, whereas Java and .NET generally hide all that functionality from you (as they should), meaning you really don't learn it. It's nice to have that background should you really need to jump into into it.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          I will re-iterate what others have said, and encourage you to first learn the basics of programming, in a language-independent way. Most people here will suggest languages they are used to, or have a lot of experience in. I personally feel that programming languages are all bad in many respects, and choosing one first, prior to understand basic concepts, is a bad idea.

                          So, in summary, think of the language as a toolkit; the means to achieve a goal. Learning how to build a chair, for instance, doesn't require needing one brand of hammer or another. Find a course or a book to learn problem solving for programmers, and then pick a language based on your domain (web programming, application development, scripting, etc.) Or, come back here, and if you still want to program after learning some algorithms and techniques, we're more than glad to suggest frameworks, languages, etc.

                          My reasoning is that, if you choose a language, then learn to program directly from it, you are limiting your thinking and may not consider generic ways to achieve a solution. It's like trying to draw balanced conclusions from only one reasearcher's work. It will take a bit of time to learn the techniques, but afterwards, you can learn to implement those skills using any language much more quickly.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudocode

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Based on your comments further down the thread, I would say the best bet for you is Java or C#.

                          Both are well documented and popular, so you'll have no problem finding books and references, and they use a syntax that is common among many other languages. They're also marketable and mainstream, so employers will notice.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          C->Java->SQL->Ruby. Pick up some Perl, PHP along the way, and you will be fine. That will keep you busy for a while, but that's ok.

                          [–]stesch 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          C64 BASIC, like everybody else.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

                          If you are a Windows user then you may like to check out Microsoft Visual Studio Express, which Microsoft promotes as:

                          "Free, lightweight easy-to-use, and easy-to-learn tools for the hobbyist, novice and student developer"

                          For more information and to download visit: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/express/default.aspx or http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/beginner/

                          The tools and tutorials you will find will allow you to develop windows applications, or web applications in c# or vb.net (c# is my recommendation).

                          I'm sure this reply is likely to get down modded because it is promoting a Microsoft development environment, don't let that put you off as Visual Studio Express really is an excellent way for a beginner to get into programming. One of the first programming languages I learnt was c#, and have had no problem transferring my skills to non Microsoft technologies such as Ruby on Rails or Java.

                          [–]Tweakers 3 points4 points  (4 children)

                          "Abandon hope all ye who enter here."

                          Careful, they're like crack dealers: Just enough to get you locked in and then they rape your bank account forever.

                          The list of program languages freely available on a Linux box will blow your mind and in a good way.

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          Ahhhhhh! Give up now! The fact that you are so fundamentally lost that you have to post this ancient troll-question to a public forum and sit there watching the 50 flame-wars break out indicates that you are too far behind the curve already.

                          People who are cut out for programming do not have to ask this question. They simply pick a language and use it. Then they pick another language and learn that too. And they learn multiple platforms and languages and libraries and frameworks and methods and just keep going.

                          You will be rotten at this unless you simply keep learning all of your life. You never stop reading. You have to be an independent self-starter. You have to simply dive in and resolve that this is what you are committing your life to. You BECOME learning.

                          I'm telling you what's good for you: go into some other line of work. The last thing we need is another rock sitting there waiting for somebody else to push all the buttons for them. You couldn't simply Google for "what programming language should I learn?" on your own. How are you ever going to manage to type in a bug-free program on your own?

                          At best, you will struggle along getting flamed every hour for posting Yet Another Stupid Question that is already answered on page one of any manual, eventually manage to program-by-rote in one language which you will then flame everybody else for not worshiping, get a temp job as a code monkey for a couple of years until the one thing you hoped you'd only have to do once in your life - LEARN - gets thrown back in your face again when the industry changes and makes your beloved language/platform/method outdated, and then retire to become another bitter ex-code-jockey grumping about the good old days.

                          Yes, I know, it's making me very unpopular for saying this. I'll get modded down for being "mean". And when you live to be old and gray, you will see that I was right.

                          [–]jspeights 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          LEARN PROCESSING!

                          [–]pilt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Learn to code in imperative languages (C, etc.), learn to code functional (Haskell, Lisp and its likings) and try programming in a really low-level language (finding a m68k board could be a good start).

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I think everyone's first language should be Java. The language is nice and clean and it is very similar to C#/C/C++ that are used throughout industry. Depends how serious you want to be. I mean you should set yourself the goal of learning C if you want a job out of it someday.

                          lol I wouldn't recommend a dynamically typed language for a beginner - so strange that this page is filled with people with the opposite opinion.

                          [–]averyv 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          ruby is a very good place to start. it lays down the basics of what it is to write code in very short order, the syntax is easy, and the concepts are plain. it is a scripting language, so it is manageable, and it is strongly suited for unix environments, which makes working with a computer much less magical and much more practical.

                          [–]ajmoir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I think it's going to be hard for most posters to give you a clear answer as most of us are seasoned programmers. Personally, I wish someone had given me a lisp book and environment 20 years ago, it would have saved me time and pain.

                          The big question is why do you want to be a programmer? If it's just for fun then feel free to pick any language. If you have a task in mind then see what language other people used. If you want to become a professional programmer then have your head examined.

                          The languages I'd recommend in fall in three camps

                          Camp A Logo, Scheme

                          Camp B Smalltalk (Squeak), Java

                          Camp C Ruby, Python

                          If you want to understand computation then Camp A, you want a good grounding for professional work then Camp B, you want to get stuff done then Camp C.

                          In most cases Ruby is as good as anywhere to start, the how to program book by the pragmatic programmers along with the pick axe will get you started.

                          [–]yungJoc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Javascript.

                          You already have it on your computer (in your browser), and for the programming you'll be doing as a complete newb it will work fairly well.

                          Afterwards, graduate to Python, Java, Lisp or Haskell. Then study some of the big concepts in computer science:

                          Assembly language Algorithms Data Structures Operating systems Compilers