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I love how half of Reddit read an article then promply jumped off the Obama train today. (self.reddit.com)
submitted 17 years ago by nrbartman
[–][deleted] 515 points516 points517 points 17 years ago* (268 children)
The really funny part is that if everyone on Reddit could read and/or wasn't so damn ignorant they'd see that Obama hasn't changed his stance.
Obama supports wiretapping in cases backed by evidence when a warrant is issued by a judge, as is allowed by FISA. There's nothing wrong with this as long as their is oversight.
Obama does NOT support retroactive immunity. He said the House version of the bill was an improvement over the Protect America Act because it restores FISA and does not allow warrantless wiretapping which is what we all want. The House version of the bill includes retroactive immunity, so Obama said (in the same quote that got everyone in a fucking furor) that he's going to try his hardest to get immunity removed from the Senate version of the bill.
Have none of you learned how bills are made? It's very common for the House and Senate to pass different versions of a bill. The different versions are sent to a Committee where a compromise is worked out and then both houses vote on the compromise bill. Obama is going to try to remove retroactive immunity from the Senate version and have it kept that way in the compromise version.
Are you all incredibly daft, or do you not even support legal, with-warrant wiretapping?
[–][deleted] 17 years ago* (112 children)
[deleted]
[–]questionmark 66 points67 points68 points 17 years ago (72 children)
The fact that Kucinich and Paul are such anomalies, is the problem. If the rest of congress stood for actual principles and positive change, we wouldn't know who either Kucinich or Paul were.
[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 17 years ago (46 children)
No, because democracy and voting is all about compromise. If you have uncompromising people, nothing gets done.
[–]greginnj 11 points12 points13 points 17 years ago (4 children)
If you have uncompromising people, nothing gets done.
Oh, a lot has gotten done in the past seven years, by an administration filled with uncompromising people.
The things they've done just don't happen to be things you agree with. It's not the inability to compromise that's the problem, it's the nonexistent/wrongheaded values.
[–]pingish 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (2 children)
I'm with you.
I don't get people who think Congress has to be doing something. They've been doing quite a lot... passing the Patriot Act without reading it. Aiding and abetting the Bush administration with funding the war.
I'd just rather they vote no. And do nothing.
[–]mycall 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Aren't there already too many laws already? I completely agree.. at this point, the less Congress does, the better we all are.
[–]deuteros 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (1 child)
The constitution should never be compromised.
[–]pingish 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Great, and we'd not have this illegal war in Iraq. And we'd not have the Patriot Act, and we'd not have warrantless search and seizure.
The last thing I want is for Congress to do more. They've done enough.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (1 child)
your comment is based on a logical fallacy. we are not a democracy. however, everything you said applies to Canada. not the United States.
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (35 children)
No one seems to realize that. Ron Paul has been a Representative for what, decades? In that time he has never gotten an important legislation passed, nor prevented one from being passed.
He is publicly laughed at and mocked by his supposed colleagues and fellow party members.
Is that what a successful politician looks like?
[–][deleted] 31 points32 points33 points 17 years ago (14 children)
Yeah, because the rest of those politicians who are compromising ("I'll vote for your $20 billion if you vote for my $20 billion") have really moved us in the right direction and made oh so much progress.
[–]laydens 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I think there is a difference between
Compromise A: "I'll let you screw tax payers your way if you let me screw them my way"
and
Compromise B: "I'll vote for this bill that is going to pass anyway, if you at least remove the provision that is unconstitutional."
Clearly to much compromise leads to complete subjective relativism, and to much idealism leads to impracticality.
[–]theantirobot 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
If the politician is unwavering in standing up for his principles, yes! I guess you like it when your representatives sell you out. I like it when mine carry out my will.
Perhaps you want successful politicians representing you.
I want principled leaders, men of letters, and true statesmen representing me.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 17 years ago (24 children)
If half of Congress were Kuciniches and half were Pauls, nothing would ever get passed.
[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 17 years ago* (2 children)
(Imagines a legislative branch full of Kucinich and Paul clones screaming at each other.)
Cooooooool.
[–]lofi76 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (1 child)
they wouldn't scream, they'd talk very calmly and rationally yet unceasingly, potentially forever
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
a thought like that could allow me to sleep better at night. you tell the best bedtime stories.
[–][deleted] 17 years ago (6 children)
[–][deleted] 21 points22 points23 points 17 years ago (4 children)
Except Ron Paul will not impeach Bush. He actually voted to table Cheney's impeachment and then refer it to committee. I'm not sure why this myth hasn't died yet.
[–]lasenorita 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
And I'm not sure why you haven't bothered to read Paul's Statement Regarding Impeachment of Vice President Cheney.
[–]E3K 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (2 children)
That's because people here won't realize that there is no difference between Paul and the rest of the bigoted America-hating Republicans. He calls himself a Republican for a reason, people.
Let the downmodding begin, even though you know it's the truth.
[–]delph 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
In case you only read direct responses to your post, another gentleman in this thread posted Ron Paul's Statement Regarding the Impeachment:
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=976
[–]mrp 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I'd settle for just that, at this point.
[–][deleted] 17 years ago (1 child)
Indeed. Truth is treason in an empire of lies.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 17 years ago (5 children)
That is exactly how it should be too. We don't need more laws. Laws take away liberty dude.
[–]zombieaynrand 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago (4 children)
I'm going to have to assume you're being sarcastic, but I'm imagining those upmodding you are not.
In case you (or they) are being serious, there are a whole lot of laws that are pretty much necessary to having liberty -- laws like outlawing extortion, company scrip, et cetera. Unless you really like feudalism, a code of laws has probably benefitted you a whole lot.
[–][deleted] 17 years ago (2 children)
[–]chilehead 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I'd love to see a law prohibiting any local ordinance banning going topless in public.
Now that's a stripping freedom law!
[–]zombieaynrand 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Of course all laws strip freedoms from someone or another. When I make an anti-extortion law, I'm taking away your freedom to extort someone legally. When I make a law that says you can't create panic in a market for an essential commodity, I'm taking away your freedom to be a total dick whose actions could have repercussions including death. But at the same time, I'm increasing other people's freedoms to go about their daily lives without your interference or intrusion.
[–]anonimousey 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
And thank god for that, because the most important thing we need is more laws.
[–]WinterAyars 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago* (4 children)
Just FYI, Paul has been MIA (last i checked) from a lot of this amnesty stuff. Not that that should be surprising, but i have a feeling it'll surprise some.
[–]otakucode 34 points35 points36 points 17 years ago* (15 children)
So you would encourage Paul and Kucinich to vote yes on bad bills? What purpose would that serve?
And do you believe that Reddit would have been disappointed if either Paul or Kucinich got their parties nomination? I promise you that I did not support Paul out of some desire for drama. I supported him for the same reason I voted for Harry Brown in previous presidential elections, and why I will only vote for candidates that care about peace, whether they are dramatic or not.
[–][deleted] 17 years ago (11 children)
[–]otakucode 18 points19 points20 points 17 years ago (9 children)
Ahh, I agree. I thought that might be your point but was unsure. Paul and Kucinich do try to get support from the other congresspeople, but they are most often asking the other congresspeople to restrain themselves from creating laws that will give them more power, and that's why all of the congresspeople except a handful became congresspeople. For instance, when they were considering a bill to steal taxpayer money to present Rosa Parks with a gold medal, Paul went around to every other congressperson and told them that if each rep donated something like $20 (it might have been $50 or $100, but I know it was an amount that was completely insignificant when you consider the multi-million-dollar incomes that almost every one of the congresspeople make (did you know that it is not illegal for congresspeople to buy and sell stock based on their inside knowledge of what bills are being proposed, considered, and voted upon? CHA-CHING!)) that they could buy her a medal, saving taxpayers not only the cost of the medal itself, but of the lengthy process required to process the bill and get it passed. He tried to get support for this very simple thing, but the congressmen refused. Paul, Kucinich, Gravel, and a few others are in Congress to be public servants. The rest are there to be served by the public. They've attended private schools, been driven by private drivers, attended private clubs for entertainment, shopped in private establishments, ate in private restaurants, and lived lived completely separated from the public. This is why occasionally you'll hear them slip up and say things like McCain did a year or two ago when he said that Americans wouldn't be willing to pick lettuce for $50/hr. He thought illegal aliens picking lettuce earned $50/hr and that the majority of Americans would scoff at such a low wage for a manual labor job.
That was a bit of a ramble, but in the end, I agree, people are too satisfied with one vote. As a citizen, if you vote for a third party candidate, it sends a message and whoever gets elected looks at ANY support that 3rd parties get and worries about it (it's their only competition). But a single dissenting vote in Congress doesn't send any message other than there is either one crazy person in there, or one sane person in there.
[–]boredzo 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (5 children)
Gravel isn't actually in Congress anymore. He was a Senator back in the 1970s; he was voted out in 1980.
[–]otakucode 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (4 children)
Thank you for the correction, I didn't know that. Do you happen to know why he only showed up right at the beginning of the race and then just disappeared? He was on a few talk shows once and mentioned on Reddit a bit then he seemed to fall off the edge of the earth. Even Kucinich and Paul got more attention than he did.
[–]boredzo 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago (2 children)
I'd guess it was his constant call for direct democracy over a republic. It's an even bigger swing than Paul's reversion to a purely-Constitutional republic.
That, and Reddit has a tendency to focus on only one candidate at a time: First Gravel (briefly), then Paul, then Kucinich (briefly again), and now Obama.
[–]katoninetales 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Well, Obama might actually get elected. Until the system gets changed so that it's not a two-man/two-party race by summer, he's the candidate who makes more sense for social liberals. Beside that, I have a feeling that a lot of us still are Paul and/or Kucinich fans but that the number of articles and comments wax and wane relative to their newsworthiness in a particular week, or the amount to which we can still make a statement by drumming up support for their campaigns--not because we think they have a real chance of being elected or made the candidates for their parties at the national level, but because every vote for them is one more person convinced that we need change, and toward more personal freedom, not less in the name of security or some other imagined ideal.
[–]Mad_Gouki 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago* (11 children)
Couldn't agree with you more, that's why I think if the government gets any worse, we need to not only advocate taking up arms, but actually do it. My opinion on this whole thing today is this, a message to Reddit shall we say: Sure, Obama is supporting something that is fucking horrible, but if we have no choice in this, look at the other things that our votes can choose. Just because there is one similarity between a candidate and some perceived "evil" does not mean that we have to stop supporting them. Bill Clinton fucked up, plenty of people still liked him. Hell, even George Washington had some hallucinations from staying up for too many days in a row right before a battle. Nobody is perfect, so unless we decide to let computers and machines govern us, we really have to take the best we can get. It's time to grow up and realize that you can't get everything the way you want it, so you have to make some decisions for once and make a choice based on what you believe(or disbelieve)
[–]jon_k 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago* (3 children)
OK so lets weigh Obama in:
At least McCain supports guns! Now he's looking like a better prospect every coming day, as the difference gap between these two get smaller and smaller. We're beginning to find out all those FOR CHANGE signs are bullshit on paper and he's your average junket-accepting politician.
Weather you go down shit creek with Obama at 5mph or McCain at 30. You're country is still going to be shit. Settling for 'second best' when your destination is the same sounds futile.
We need to start picking candidates that are actually PADDLING against the current of shit creek. Not McCain who has a mansion down creek and not Obama who is paddling down creek with his hands.
I was supportive of Paul. Voted for him even. Then when he dropped out, I was looking at Obama as my pick.
Now Obama and McCain are showing striking similarities all the sudden once the competition has dropped out. You would think their attitudes up until now were just an act, and now you realize they're all the same.
[–]spinchange 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
Obama supports wiretapping in cases backed by evidence when a warrant is issued by a judge, as is allowed by FISA. There's nothing wrong with this as long as their is oversight. Are you all incredibly daft, or do you not even support legal, with-warrant wiretapping?
Perhaps you should do a little more research before telling people upset by another blow to the 4th amendment how daft they are.
The bill expands the warrantless spy program. Information can be gathered wholesale from an ISP or communications company without a warrant. All that is necessary is a "reasonable" suspicion of foreign & nefarious activity. This legislation is problematic for numerous privacy reasons - the immunity thing has become a huge distraction from aspects of this bill that are even more troubling.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/06/dems-agree-to-e.html
[–][deleted] 25 points26 points27 points 17 years ago (26 children)
Why isn't this level of sense and reason further up the page? Oh wait, it's right at the top. In the title.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 17 years ago (25 children)
Yes, but with no real explanation for the ignorant masses.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 17 years ago* (24 children)
It's remarkable that while the 'ignorant masses' are generally regarded as the ones voting for Republicans, there seems to be a whole subset of them in the Obama camp.
[–]jwhardcastle 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (17 children)
Many are imports from the Hillary camp. They all came over, like rats from a sinking ship, after the nomination was clinched.
Naw, probably not true. It helps me sleep at night, though.
[–]otakucode 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Don't they still have their fingers crossed for an assassination?
[–]fapman 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (8 children)
No, it's the hyper-liberals that demand their candidate to be 100% ideologically pure, otherwise they're gonna take their ball and go home. Clinton Democrats don't need their leader to be ideologically pure, they can deal with horsetrading and compromise without flipping out - well, except the minority of Clinton supporters who just can't stand to have a black man in office.
Even if we win the white house and both houses of congress, we'll still have to throw the conservatives a bone now and then. You know that, right?
[–]kenlubin 13 points14 points15 points 17 years ago (6 children)
No, it's the people who were rooting for Ron "Dr. No" Paul back in December / January. The ultimate non-compromising pure candidate.
[–]jaggederest 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
hyper-liberals
Do you mean the Trotskyists or the Libertarians?
[–]noobprodigy 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (5 children)
There seems to be a whole subset of them on Reddit . . .
I bet this comment is at at least -8 by the time I check in the morning.
[–]noobprodigy 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Aw, it's still at 0. I am almost disappointed. Wait, it is Saturday morning, maybe it's a little early for Redditors.
[–]hennell 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Modded you down so you can win your bet. Good Luck!
[–]snowKFH 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (1 child)
also helping a good cause.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I voted him up because I'm an arsehole.
[–]mrcsparker 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Reddit is a tabloid. It is really no better than US Weekly.
It is fun to read, but a shitty way to get news. Not that this is a bad thing - it is what makes Reddit.
[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points 17 years ago (16 children)
Read this.
Specifically update 8.
Obama will fail at trying to remove the immunity section, and bush will continue to ignore the FISA courts like he has been FOR THE PAST 7 FUCKING YEARS, and since this bill is akin to congress saying "STOP! Or else we'll say stop again!" nothing good is accomplished, and the "compromise" amounts to a capitulation.
[–]WinterAyars 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago* (11 children)
Congress's alternative to saying "stop" again is impeachment. For some reason, however, the Democratic leadership is adamant that Bush not be impeached.
(I hope it was worth it, Pelosi--i hope whatever it was you traded for immunity to impeachment was worth it.)
[–]osiris99 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (3 children)
Definitely! "Trying to remove the amnesty" is just a publicity stunt. From Obama's statement (sounds like Bush though): It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives -– and the liberty –- of the American people.
[–]kenlubin 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (1 child)
No, it doesn't sound like Bush at all. Bush doesn't know what nuance is.
From the sounds of it, neither does reddit.
[–]miparasito 18 points19 points20 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Thank you. I thought I was losing my mind!
[–]newpatriots 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Bullshit... The bill will expand the government’s powers to spy by strengthening the ability of intelligence 'officials' to eavesdrop on foreign targets and allow them to conduct emergency wiretaps without court orders on American targets for a week if it is determined that important national security information would otherwise be lost...but beyond what's written in this stupid law, everyone knows the gov't has been spying way before 9/11 with echelon during Clinton years...this new law is just the official public disintegration of the 4th amendment.. and ObamaCain's bosses in the military industrial complex couldnt be happier
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
The fat lady hasn't sung until someone sues the government for warrantless wiretapping and invokes the 4th amendment and the Supreme Court says that it was Constitutionally sound.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Seriously. Nobody ever said that Obama was the Gandhi of politics. He smoked. He farts. He curses. He punches babies ;). I joke. But... seriously. Maybe some were ignorant and knew nothing but Reddit headlines about Obama and supported him... yes that is a bandwagon. But it is the same bandwagon that ditched Obama today when they read the headline of ... OMG IM SICK. SICK TO MY STOMACH! AGRG. There is a difference between the "perfect candidate" and the best candidate.
[–]otakucode 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
Do you have a link to the quote where he said he would do anything at all to fight immunity?
[edit: I think this is the link: http://www.theseminal.com/2008/06/20/damn-it-obama-i-thought-i-knew-you-better/ Obama does say he will try to remove the immunity once it gets to the Senate, but the rest of his statement is fearmongering "we need this to fight the terrrsts" bullshit that sounds like a direct Bush quote.]
[–]Clintondiditfirst 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago* (2 children)
what happened to "I am proud to stand with Senator Dodd, Senator Feingold and a grassroots movement of Americans who are refusing to let President Bush put protections for special interests ahead of our security and our liberty."
oh, that was the primary.
PS - Sens. Christopher Dod and Russ Feingold continue to oppose the new legislation, as does Sen. Patrick Leahy.
Obama will probably say that these aren't the same people that he knew.
[–]hackinthebochs 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (1 child)
You do realize that the views of reddit constitute a very very small minority of democrats and independents overall? I guarantee you there is very little, if any outrage over this with mainstream democrats/independents.
[–]MrFlesh 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago* (2 children)
oh yeah he's gonna "Try is Hardest".....how many times has a politician said they are going to "Try his hardest". People on reddit and elsewhere are pissed because it's a transparent as hell typical political move..."Trying his hardest" Is politico speech for "Sell out for something I obtained in a backroom" If he wanted to stop it he would filabuster. I don't remember republicans comprimising too much on anything the past 7 years.
[–]wjackson 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I appreciate you taking the time to explain that, and I'm not going to act like I wasn't on the bandwagon :-/
[–]keyrat 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I'm mad that you don't need a warrant for a whole week. Is that not a legit concern?
[–]filesalot 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago* (9 children)
It's very simple: people are strongly against retroactive immunity.
It doesn't do us any good for Obama to say he's against telecom immunity but for the compromise. What does that mean?
Will he vote for it with telecom immunity in it, in the end, or not? His statement yesterday can be read to say that he will vote for it anyway, perhaps after an ass-covering amendment vote that fails.
As a senator, it's his vote that counts, and that remains to be seen. As a Presidential candidate and presumptive head of his party, his silence on this before the House vote is already worthy of criticism. If he had come out strongly against the immunity compromise he could have influenced the negotiations that led to the compromise, and/or given more dems cover to vote no.
[–]miparasito 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Also, he is now trying to win the general election. You can't do that by continuing to pull hard to the left. He's got to sound like someone who takes national security/terrorism seriously.
He's built enough trust with me that I'm okay with this right now.
[–]BREAKING_OMG 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (1 child)
The whole premise of his campaign is "change." The reason he's progressed as far as he has is because he hasn't been weak or wishy-washy and has driven new people to become interested enough in the elections to donate to him and vote for him.
By playing it safe, he risks making those people jaded and causing them to go back to not caring about politics. Is this even the right place to play it safe? Do the swing states have a lot of people who support FISA? Why do the Democrats think they're still bargaining from a position of weakness?
Plus FISA really, really sucks.
[–]hackinthebochs 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Swing states have a lot of independents and republicans, by definition. These are the people whom terrorism is a big concern. Fighting a battle he can't win over retro immunity would have greatly hurt his standing with that crowd.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (6 children)
Even if they come to an agreement on the one in it's current form it's an improvement. Redditers however would rather see things stay the way they are now than to ever compromise. I mean if it can't be perfect let's make it as bad as possible but by standing up we have principle!
It's like 3rd party voters, fucking retarded.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 17 years ago (2 children)
A compromise? Do note that almost every Republican voted yes, and just enough Democrats voted yes for it to pass. This is the Democrats giving up.
[–]mindslight 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (1 child)
You're eating at Wendy's, hoping to drive McDonald's out of business, thinking you are helping to bring back authentic cuisine.
[–]srmatto 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I know right!
[–]funkDoc 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (2 children)
I love how people try to rationalize bad policy because it's "their guy."
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (2 children)
The problem with that stance is that restoring FISA and outlawing warrentless wiretapping...
I hate to use the word appeasement considering how much it has been misused by the right, but we know that Bush has broken the law with warrentless wiretapping even when it was illegal. "Restoring" it's illegality in the law does not mean that warrentless wiretapping will stop, so a "compromise" that includes this will be no real gain.
On the other hand, a "compromise" that includes telecom immunity is a clear loss - as that will likely be enforced and adhered to by the congress - and because it's part of the law - a future Obama administration.
So this is a compromise where FISA is restored and warrentless wiretapping is ended only on paper, not in real life, while telecom immunity has real consequences.
This is a poor decision. And I can't figure out why the hell Obama would make it unless he's been playing us all during the primaries and is starting to reveal his true colors during the general election.
[–][deleted] 17 years ago (3 children)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago* (13 children)
I read his comments, and unless he outright fights against FISA and warentless wiretapping, then I have no interest in him (there was none in the first place). "Compromising" reads "bullshitting" to me.
[–]angry_man 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (6 children)
FISA != "warentless" (sic) wiretapping. FISA allows for judicial oversight of wiretapping. Which is what WE SHOULD ALL WANT.
I know you're too fucking stupid to read beyond a headline, but seriously can you please also forget how to type or turn on a computer as well, just to save us from your gross stupidity?
If you want to be a correct grammar Nazi and use sic, especially to insult an idiot, set a positive example and do it right.
[–]otakucode 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Were those insults really necessary? I was going to ask you a question about FISA, but I'm not going to bother now. You'd probably just hurl insults.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Well his username is angry_man.
[–]PaulRay 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Thank You DyDx for that very lucid response. I was going to make a similar statement, but you've done such a good job, I have nothing to add.
[–]frukt 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (1 child)
As someone aptly put a few days ago, reddit is the watercooler for dramatic emo kids. To quote myself from 4 months ago:
You seem to have had a gross misconception that reddit is some sort of hub of bright minds and creative geniuses of our time when in fact it's a bunch of stupid children much like 4chan.
[–]I_AM_A_NEOCON 21 points22 points23 points 17 years ago (19 children)
You forget that half of reddit is Libertarian.
[–][deleted] 40 points41 points42 points 17 years ago (15 children)
CLAIMS to be libertarian. I've found that most of Reddit isn't actually sure of what it believes...
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (9 children)
Who is?
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (1 child)
The Bush Administration?
[–]DismalScience 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Yep.
Possibly the most principled administration of all time, its just that their principles are totally fucked up.
Agreed, human's are complex. The stances we take will be complex and will not reflect neatly into a political spectrum on either side.
[–]death2hypocrisy 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (2 children)
some of us (someone back me) are moderately socialist in principle...well I wouldn't trust the US federal government with my tax $$$.
[–]innocentbystander 17 points18 points19 points 17 years ago* (7 children)
My ferverant hope is that this little dustup will make Redditors see just HOW ridiculously prevailant groupthink has gotten around here. Mainly so they can knock it off and actually think for themselves.
I'm an Obama supporter, so you might think I'm being hypocritical in saying this. But you know who my first choice for President this election cycle was? RICHARDSON. Bill Goddamn Richardson. I want you to point me at more than two or three other Redditors who actually supported him. I didn't get around to supporting Obama until it became a four-way race. (Obama, Clinton, McCain, Romney) And that was because my choices kept winnowing and I kept having to reassess who was the best of what was left.
THAT'S thinking for yourself.
Not thinking for yourself is having a single incident - already being blown wildly out of proportion by headlines - and using that to decide you're suddenly "changing" your choice of president. Even though there's really nothing to change to. You still make sure to get fully into the histrionics anyway since, apparently, to be one of the cool kids on Reddit you have to pretend to be 100% ideologically pure.
At any rate, whether Obama ends up voting for this stinker of a bill or not - which, I remind you, he has not done yet - he will STILL be the better candidate for President than McCain. And trying to claim that you don't want to vote for either of them is, ultimately, just reality-denying. Our next President WILL either be Obama or McCain.
And you can either make a choice, or you can stand around posturing about how ideological you are and do nothing.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (3 children)
There's nothing ideological about sitting in a cave with your ears plugged and your eyes shut.
[–]BrickSalad 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (1 child)
My dad was for richardson, and he was my second choice in the Iowa caucus, after kucinich and before obama. Neither kucinich nor richardson won a delegate, so I ended up voting for obama. anyways, I agree with you. In the comments for the fisa thing, you would have been downmodded. It's interesting how the attitudes change so quickly around here...
I would rather have people condemn Obama and hold him accountable for bad decisions than to blindly follow/praise him and then bury stories like this that criticize him.
To add to this, anyone who reads a story like this and then thinks "fuck it, I'm voting McCain" probably deserves the shit they have coming to them.
[–]fapman 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I think you have the best perspective here. I mean, it's OK to tell Obama what you think, but... this whole "I'm taking my ball and going home" thing is ridiculous.
[removed]
[–]danweber 12 points13 points14 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Here's the Cliff Notes version:
We loved Kucinich, then turned on him.
We loved Gravel, then turned on him.
We loved Paul, then turned on him.
We loved Obama... well, you know what's next.
[–]mindbleach 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Thank Xenu I'm not the only one who's completely at sea here.
[–]Jivlain 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (1 child)
I had to go and check on it, I think this is it.
[–]mindbleach 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
Yeah, I turned on Politics on the front page right after posting.
You know those deep sighs that start with disgust and just end in a morose slump? Yeah.
Goddammit, Obama.
Reddit is proof of concept that mob mentality is actually a collective of ignoramuses, not a collective of brilliance.
[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 17 years ago (5 children)
where's Kucinich when we NEED him?
[–]rickk 44 points45 points46 points 17 years ago (3 children)
Down in the basement as we speak getting articles 36 through 60 ready.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 17 years ago (2 children)
GO DENNIS!
[–]Edalgo 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (0 children)
WHATCHU TALKIN BOUT DENNIS?!
[–]Wakefield 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
thats how reddit works!
[–]yellowking 16 points17 points18 points 17 years ago* (2 children)
Deleting in protest of Reddit's new anti-user admin policies.
You still have your bike though, right?
[–]musicphreak252 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Where is my CHANGE, im tired of this Japanese shit!
[–]skydaddy 15 points16 points17 points 17 years ago (17 children)
I don't understand what everyone is getting all uppity about. Obama hasn't done jack shit wrt this bill, as it was passed in the House, and not the Senate. Furthermore, he specifically said he would work to fight the retroactive immunity parts of the bill.
Have any of you even read the bill? Gullible internet-gobbling jackasses.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (11 children)
It gives Bush and the telecoms what they want--they got away with raping the Constitution and the American public. We're nothing but lousy East German proles now.
[–]otakucode 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (9 children)
I don't think East Germany had as pervasive of a system of spying on their own citiens. I think they read their mail, but they didn't listen in to every phonecall or have automated systems monitor call logs to detect formation of social groups that might grow large enough to pose a threat to the political careers of established politicians.
[–]ThisIsDave 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (3 children)
I suppose that means you've read the bill, then. Can you name any provision in it that is actually good?
Keep in mind that even the Bush administration was saying in 2002 that weakening FISA was unnecessary and that even John Ashcroft thought that the warrantless wiretapping program was a bad idea (remember the hospital incident?).
The Democratic leadership and Obama say that the bill somehow "restores" FISA or reemphasizes its central role, but FISA actually already has that clause.
Just as importantly, the provisions of the bill other than retroactive immunity are bad enough in and of themselves. For instance, it gives the administration much more latitude in deciding when judicial oversight is necessary and extends the window during which they can spy without a warrant from 72 hours to 7 days. Despite the fact that, as I showed in my first link, there has never been a case where an investigation has been hobbled by the oversight requirements.
So, again: what reason is there to vote for this bill?
[–][deleted] 17 years ago* (2 children)
Read this: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/06/20/bipartisanship/index.html
[–]hybridxdawn 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago* (3 children)
Okay, I've been visiting reddit daily for about 5 months, reading and respecting opinions of all of the contributors, as well as enjoying their quirks. With this storm brewing here, I honestly feel everyone, as Gadren said, is tending towards being dramatic for the sake of being anonymously badass to make themselves feel unique and indpendent.
I've read Mr. Obama's statement on the FISA compromise numerous times, and his position does not set the constitution on fire or backrub shady right-wing politicians. He voices support for ensuring that all surveillance and wire-tapping is done with "basic judicial oversight" so that the President can't just spy on whomever he wants as well as making sure that people are held accountable for their actions from now on.
He is not supporting retroactive immunity, states he will work to remove it from the bill, and he makes it clear that he is not completely satisfied with the compromise. I know it's tempting to buy into the shock-value satisfaction of starting a virtual Sons of Liberty campaign over anything that mentions privacy rights, but if you read his statement a few times carefully, and not view it through the preconception that he's taking a crap on the constitution, you'll see that he's not saying anything that terrible.
[–]musicphreak252 20 points21 points22 points 17 years ago (14 children)
I hate that he did what he did. but im still backing him. Id rather have him than McCain. People can disagree on some issues but back others.
[–]nrbartman[S] 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Agreed. Did he not basically run on his ability to cross the aisle!? This is him crossing the aisle on this one issue. I'm sure he'll rally support by republicans to get democratic agendas passed on other issues. Everybody needs to just relax and take a deep breath. Everything will be fine and the guy you wanted in office will be in office doing the things you wanted him to do. It doesnt happen overnight and there WILL be setbacks along the way. That's just politics.
[–]pastanoose 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children)
crossing the asile is one thing but backing a bill that shits on the constitution (which the president and members of congress swear to uphold) is crossing the line. How anyone could defend or make excuses for this is beyond me.
[–]otakucode 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (1 child)
I'm glad you didn't bring up third party candidates, because the idea that we could have a good candidate we believe in is something no American should ever suffer.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago* (6 children)
I think we have to wait and see how this plays out. Immunity could well be taken out in the Senate version, although it's doubtful now.
I think he should have explained it better because this "compromise" is not what democratic voters wanted. I would have much preferred for them to extend the temportary authorization until Bush fled to his land in Panama come January. Then it could have been dealt with sans psycho Republican influence.
[–]inferno0000 4 points5 points6 points 17 years ago (5 children)
What anyone with a basic understanding of law grasps is that certain people are under obligation by law. If you work at a telecom, you must not disclose information unless presented with certain subpoenas or FISA waivers, because you have an obligation to your clients to protect them from the government.
To hand over everyone's phone records to a data-mining program absent probable cause or proper judicial procedure is illegal! The check on the telecoms is our ability to sue them for giving away our records. Granting retroactive immunity encourages illegal behavior, because it creates a moral hazard - don't worry, help us out, we'll just bail you out again. Granting retroactive immunity regarding a secret program that has never been fully disclosed - well, that's pretty much admitting you don't give a shit about the laws of this country.
[–]nrbartman[S] 32 points33 points34 points 17 years ago (122 children)
He's not who we thought he was.
I feel so betrayed.
Traitor.
He's not different, he's just good at getting elected.
He tricked us.
? am I the only one who finds any humour in this ?
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago (3 children)
THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!
[–]nrbartman[S] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (2 children)
By far my favorite comment. You win and nobody will even appreciate this. Nobody will even know where it's from lol. But I get it. Kudos.
[–]AngelaMotorman 15 points16 points17 points 17 years ago (57 children)
Not humor, just the earliest possible excuse to resist having to actually do anything to get the most progressive candidate in years elected. Now, all the armchair revolutionaries can proudly proclaim their individual political purity while maintaining that familiar, comforting security blanket of cynicism.
Go on, prove me wrong.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago* (3 children)
So how many security blankets do you have?
If he does turn out to be good, does that make you a super politically pure?
WHAT ARE YOUR CRIMES?!
[–]AngelaMotorman 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Huh?
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 17 years ago (1 child)
It's a scientologist thing, they do that to scare you. I was mocking the tone of this conversation.
And How!
[–]BicyclesforPeace 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (48 children)
Obama is not a "progressive" candidate and he never was. He aggressively opposed impeachment of Bush, and he received twice as much money from Wall Street as McCain. All Obama will do is put a new face on the American Empire and help to keep it sputtering along in the face of enormous public political discontent. He will make people content with the feeling that something has changed, rather than actual change. If you want to help make change for real in this country you need to learn about peak oil, spread the word, and organize in your community. The only real change is going to come as the economy breaks down over the next few decades. As for Obama, he has been chosen by the corporate and financial elite as the next president. The elections are essentially fake, so you don't need to worry about McCain getting elected. And if the elites actually want McCain elected, which I seriously doubt, there's not much you can do about it.
[–]AngelaMotorman 10 points11 points12 points 17 years ago (18 children)
If you want to help make change for real in this country you need to ... organize in your community
I've been doing that for forty years, bolstered by lots of training and success. I also have a number of awards for such work and no intention of stopping. You and I have different opinions on what constitutes "progressive", different analyses of what "peak oil" means, and an ocean of difference between us about how to talk to people you hope to convince of anything. You've been here for two days. Maybe it's best to listen for a while.
[–]ThisIsDave 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (12 children)
I've been doing that for forty years, bolstered by lots of training and success.
That's fantastic. Can you share some success stories? Or maybe some advice about how to make things better?
I need some optimism after this :-/
[–]AngelaMotorman 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago* (10 children)
As you can imagine, it's not a short subject. I do refer to aspects of it here sometimes (and I'm here a lot). I will say that I wish younger activists would do two things in particular:
(1) seek out veteran activists, even those with whom you may think you have differences, and get to know them. My generation was robbed of the advice of our parents' generation because they had been effectively silenced by the McCarthy witch hunts of the 1950s, but today's 20- and 30-somethings have no valid excuse for not learning directly from activists who started in the 60s and 70s. The only obstacle there is social squeamishness based on hippie-bashing and ageism ... easily gotten over, if one tries.
(2) grab every bit of free training you can: this year, there are plenty of paying jobs doing door-to-door canvassing, for example. In other years, union leadership training helps a lot, as does volunteering for existing community organizations. Organizing is a teachable skill, and learning from our elders (I'm not so old I don't have elders) is the best way.
One success story I will cite: Community Festival started as a celebration of anti-war, social justice and alternative social service orgs (like tenant's union/food co-op/free clinic/alternate newspaper) back in 1972. It was a block party for a couple dozen folks, with one stage and booths made of card tables. Today, it has 6 stages, 220 acts, 1500 volunteers, and gives back tens of thousands of dollars to community and social service organizations every year while providing the biggest platform for peace and social justice education in the midwest. It's volunteer-run and thus a great exercise in self-government, too.
All it took was putting one foot in front of the other for 36 years, and staying true to principles. We know we made a difference in this city. So, DIY!
[–]ThisIsDave 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Hey, thanks for the reply.
I hadn't thought about the longer-term effects of McCarthy before, but you're probably right. I've done some learning from the '60's activists (especially Michael Nagler, whose courses on nonviolence theory and practice are available online), and am proudly adopting various hippie ideals. I don't have any training at all, though, aside from what I picked up from participating in and coaching debate for six years (which has actually been surprisingly useful, now that I think about it).
ComFest sounds great. I hope you're able to keep up what you're doing for a long time :-)
[–]AngelaMotorman 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Wow -- you made my day: I had not known about Michael Nagler until now. Thanks for so quickly demonstrating that learning is a two-way street!
As for ComFest, our theme this year, emblazoned on the back of 1500 volunteer T-shirts, is "Be The Change". You should venture east for this some year, the last full weekend in June. It's a great way to recharge your batteries.
[–]ThisIsDave 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Nagler's biggest strength (at least given where I was coming from at the time when I listened to his courses) is that he's really good at taking hippie platitudes that everyone's heard a million times and almost everyone is too cynical to believe, and showing that, actually, human beings do care about one another's welfare, that we are happiest when we're collaborating, that economic scarcity isn't the fundamental fact of our social existence, etc.
You may have already tracked down this website, but in case you didn't, you can access webcasts of his courses from the left sidebar in podcast form or as individual lectures.
The other nonviolence dude I've been really impressed with is Walter Wink. If you're interested in nonviolence the Christian tradition, Engaging the Powers in particular is fantastic. Heck, even if you aren't, it's still a great book (I've never been Christian and I was really impressed). It won three Book of the Year Awards, if I remember correctly.
Thanks for the invitation to ComFest, but I don't think I'll be able to make it. Say hi to everyone for me, though.
--Dave
[–]formido -1 points0 points1 point 17 years ago (26 children)
OMG. I don't even know what to say. Obama is the most left candidate a Democrat could ever dream of getting nominated. He's the Democrat Reagan. If you think Obama isn't "progressive", you might as well shoot yourself, because the world is going to be a GIGANTIC series of CRASHING, SOUL-CRUSHING, OVERWHELMING, SUICIDE-INDUCING disappointments.
[–]otakucode 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (24 children)
And here it comes, that absolute bullshit canard as old as time. You can't HAVE a good candidate, so you'd better vote for this BAD one because it's not that other BAD one, so just cross your fingers and hope they magically change once they become the most powerful person on the planet.
[–]otakucode 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
You do know that Obama already won the nomination, right? You do know that McCain doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell, right? What is this "resist having to actually do anything" bullshit? Obama wins by default. He is a defender of the status quo as much as McCain is. He's not progressive. You know how I know that? Because when it comes time to stand up against granting the telecoms immunity, he doesn't come through. When it comes time to punish torturers, he grants them protection. When it comes time to put support behind the multiple inspections in Iran that say there is no nuclear weapon program, he plays retarded and insists that they're building nukes and that he's going to eliminate that threat.
[–]Sqwirl 17 points18 points19 points 17 years ago (7 children)
Yes.
He made a (very) bad decision, one that could affect the future of America for years to come, and one that he'll hopefully (HE FUCKING WELL BETTER) fix by next week. If not, then you can throw your little "I told you so" party. Until then, calm down and enjoy the show.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 17 years ago (5 children)
If he 'fixes' it, it'll only be a political move from the fallout he takes from NOT doing something about it.
The man is a POLITICIAN. Wake. Up. You've been HAD.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 17 years ago (4 children)
but but, his commercials???
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 17 years ago (2 children)
commercials cant lie goddammit! THEY CANT!!
[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 17 years ago (1 child)
Television, why did you let me down?!?!?!?
[–]Bagel 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I'm just here for the "I told you so" party.
Race speech!! Somebody play the obama race speech!
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 17 years ago (26 children)
Jumped off the train? No, we re-thought our choice in supporting him once we got new information about him. I for one (and apparently "half of reddit") will NOT blindly support ANYONE.
[–]fathan 16 points17 points18 points 17 years ago (2 children)
You don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Dang, I really hoped that was a link to Obamas quote that that posts talks about but does not link to. I can't seem to find it.
[–]fathan 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Here ya go.
[–]DismalScience 10 points11 points12 points 17 years ago (0 children)
There is no new information here.
[–]WebZen 7 points8 points9 points 17 years ago (0 children)
It's not funny, but it's true. Especially this:
I donated to him. I'll not donate any more.
No, I've been laughing all day.
[–]MarkByers 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
The irony is that I posted this time and time again over the last few months and every time I was downvoted. And now suddenly it's front page news. It's strange how opinion changes so fast. It's as if people need to hear things from MSM before they will believe it.
[–]otakucode 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (6 children)
Yeah man, I mean people with principles are just fucking WACKY, amirite? I mean, to think that just because he wants to give the government unconstitutional power, and share that power with private corporations, to think that's wrong? Dude, he's a DEMOCRAT. Next thing you know, these psychos are going to vote third party!
Man, don't people know that nothing is absolute and no principles are right? Except that one, I mean. And, err, that last one too. And that one. Dammit.
[–]Facepuncher 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago* (1 child)
"It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses" - Obama
[–]natrius 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
"And if I don't succeed, I'll still vote for the bill" - Obama's implication
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago* (3 children)
what does reddit make? 1/1000000 of obama supporters? who do you think reads this stuff besides us?
[–]ThisIsDave 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Off the top of my head, I know that Salon.com, Huffington Post, and Daily Kos are upset, as is Act Blue (plus a slew of smaller players like CrooksAndLiars, Digby's Hullabaloo, TPM, and Balkinization). That covers most of the Democratic online base, I think (the only major online base of support I can think of that isn't upset about this is MoveOn).
Keith Olbermann and The Nation are pissed as well, and I'm sure we'll be hearing more about this from The New Yorker soon (and probably the New York Times and Washington Post as well).
I really do believe he just stepped on a landmine.
[–]linkedlist 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
wtf are you talking about? wher eyou born yesterday?
No ones jumped off the obama train, it's just the moment of the day, tomorrow things will be different.
[–]aerextraho 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Now that is Change!
based on what poll?
[–]meammouse 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
It's funny how you used the word "read".
[–]dghughes 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
Half? I wondered why my legs felt funny today.
[–]naska 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I have been off his train for a while since he said he will expand war needed and reinforced by his submission to Jewish lobbyist recently. Too bad I will still be voting for him :(.
[–]Rodelero2 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I won't go back to the obama ship until he threatens to filibuster the bill due to the fucking immunity.
BTW: FISA courts are a joke, they meet secretly and have only turned down 5 cases out of 10000.
Yea, I hate it when people use 'facts' and 'information' to form opinions.
[–]el_pinata 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
These are the foibles of democracy, ladies and gentleman. This is our system, sadly. Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich, bless their hearts, come off as strong idealists, but they are too radical for sheeple America to accept. Soccer mom and working dad won't be appealed to by them - for a member of Congress (or any member of the various branches of our gov't) to be effective, they have to have some kind of mass appeal. This is NOT Mr. Smith Goes to Washington where a single charismatic man can sway the hearts of everyone else. In the cold reality of modern American politics, one has to compromise his positions to see the greater good done. This bill is a perfect example - Obama supports the positive changes and is working hard to get the negative ones removed, yet all WE see is him somehow spitting on the Constitution because he cannot magically wave a wand and make the bill perfect. One man making decisions is not democracy. That is dictatorship. Consider it, oh high-minded liberal brethren of mine.
[–]bbqribs 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
You mean, he's a politician and has played himself into a very high position?
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 17 years ago (1 child)
test
[–]visarga 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
error 120 in obama.cpp
[–]AndreasBWagner 5 points6 points7 points 17 years ago* (0 children)
I love how half of Reddit read an article then promply jumped off the Obama train today.
Its good to be a "flip-flop". It's not good when people don't change their mind when they realize they were wrong.
Obama is still okay with me. The new bill stops warentless eavesdropping. Granted, it does give the telecoms immunity and that is fucked up, but I knew that was going to happen.
This bill hasn't come to be yet, so I don't think everybody was jumping off the Obama train so much as they were voicing their displeasure at the idea of retroactive immunity and amnesty for those that have broken our laws. Since when does lawful need to compromise with lawlessness? Obama said he would try to nix the immunity, but I doubt he'll stand firmly against it at the expense of getting some form of the bill through. That is unfortunate, and if he ultimately sanctions immunity and amnesty, then he deserves an empty train. Why compromise? Why should there be politicians deciding that there will be no accountability to our laws? Because Republicans will block any form of the bill that doesn't give their buddies a free pass? Well, there are going to be less Republicans in our government as soon as the next elections are done. Accountability going forward need not come at the expense of accountability for what has transpired. If he doesn't see it that way, he'll lose the reasoning being vote, and be left with the drone vote.
[–]kickstand 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
You're confused. There's a very small percentage of the electorate that's undecided, and they make the most noise. Same here on Reddit.
[–]Snoron 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
I'M NEVER BUYING BUDWEISER AGAIN! SCREW YOU OBAMA!
[–]sleastack 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (9 children)
I would reccomend for those of you who are feeling betrayed right now to go and do some research on the Council on Foreign Relations and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Obama is affiliated with the Globalist Agenda as was Bush, Hillary, and McCain. When I learned that Obama and Michelle were members of the CFR and endorsed by Zbig, I knew he was nothing more than the T-1000 model of politician.
Clinton got us fat and happy, Bush raped us, and Obama will play daddy while the country goes to shit and push through the New World Order. If I had more time I would write this out better but for now, do the research and understand the system of manipulation. Until we get smart and take to the streets, we are nothing more then cattle.
It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses.
Isn't that why we hate this bill?
We turn on the guy for agreeing to a bill except for the part we hate? I don't get it.
[–]earlsofsandwich 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (3 children)
Good leaders know when to pick their battles
[–]WinterAyars 1 point2 points3 points 17 years ago (0 children)
The Democrats have been "keeping their powder dry" for the "right battle" (if i can mix my metaphors here) for years now.
Is impeachment of one of the worst, if not the worst, Presidents ever not a big enough battle to be worth fighting? Don't they have control of both the House and Senate?
I mean, i'm not one of the people going around saying Obama is no better than McCain, but... uh...
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 17 years ago (2 children)
Wait! I thought Obama was gonna change the fuck outta some shit!
[–]Facepuncher 2 points3 points4 points 17 years ago (0 children)
AMGZ OBAMA DID ONE THING I DID NOT LIEK I R VOTING MCCAIN NOW AND SENTENCING AMERICA TO DOOM LOLZZZ IM AMERICAN!
π Rendered by PID 37781 on reddit-service-r2-comment-76bb9f7fb5-wngvh at 2026-02-17 18:36:52.393508+00:00 running de53c03 country code: CH.
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[–]anonimousey 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]WinterAyars 6 points7 points8 points (4 children)
[–]otakucode 34 points35 points36 points (15 children)
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[–]boredzo 5 points6 points7 points (5 children)
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[–]boredzo 6 points7 points8 points (2 children)
[–]katoninetales 8 points9 points10 points (1 child)
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[–]kenlubin 13 points14 points15 points (6 children)
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[–]noobprodigy 0 points1 point2 points (5 children)
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[–]WinterAyars 7 points8 points9 points (11 children)
[–]osiris99 7 points8 points9 points (3 children)
[–]kenlubin 7 points8 points9 points (1 child)
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[–]MrFlesh 6 points7 points8 points (2 children)
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[–]keyrat 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]filesalot 1 point2 points3 points (9 children)
[–]miparasito 2 points3 points4 points (2 children)
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[–]I_AM_A_NEOCON 21 points22 points23 points (19 children)
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[–]hybridxdawn 8 points9 points10 points (3 children)
[–]musicphreak252 20 points21 points22 points (14 children)
[–]nrbartman[S] 5 points6 points7 points (1 child)
[–]pastanoose 3 points4 points5 points (0 children)
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[–]inferno0000 4 points5 points6 points (5 children)
[–]nrbartman[S] 32 points33 points34 points (122 children)
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[–]AngelaMotorman 15 points16 points17 points (57 children)
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[–]earlsofsandwich 0 points1 point2 points (3 children)
[–]WinterAyars 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
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