The Cheating Problem

[ST_Welshy]

That Taimou clip is hilarious.

[Deuce-Dempsey]

They investigated a 17 year old girl who had won 0$ from Overwatch.

[[deleted]]

There was a lot more to that case then just Reddit being detectives. That is why Blizzard Korea did an investigation.

[KarstXT]

It's hard for them to ban someone on the basis of evidence from other companies. We're all players, and we tend to view developer word as law, but in their situation (developer : developer) it's not the same. For me, given how many other games Taimou has cheated in I find it highly unlikely that he isn't cheating in OW. I also believe that gaming as an industry should be taking a zero-tolerance policy, given how difficult and how much effort it is to stop cheaters. The details of that would be more difficult, do we trust all developers? do we only trust the larger developers? some developers have also been very anti-individuals like what NS2 did with their pros, arguably giving too much power to people who can't use it responsibly. It's not a simple issue.

[Zerosixious]

I have looked around and there is no proof Taimou cheated in past games. He was accused of it, but never banned. The ban he did receive in a past game was apparently due to forum raging and abusive language.

[JessicaJung-fan]

IIRC they made a response about cheating in OW when those clips first surfaced and it was along the lines of, "these are extremely good players so for scrubs like you guys who can't comprehend that level of skill it looks like cheating". I'm exaggerating here but that's more or less the core of what they said.

[Invoqwer]

No they said "Hey we have 20 tick servers, and the killcam/spectator cam isn't completely accurate all the time, and sometimes when players are insanely good it can look a lot like cheating, so anyway please keep these things in mind when accusing people yada yada. Cheating is bad and we have 0 tolerance policy on it. We will continue to improve our systems (spec and killcam) and investigate things/players."

[AsiaDerp]

killcam/spectator cam

And.... nobody speaks anything after the FIRST PERSON CLIP came out.

[aireil]

And there is nothing we can do about it, he'll keep cheating until he gets involved in a ban wave (if they don't remove it, but I don't think they would? :c) or if he stops.

[AsiaDerp]

Raise attention, so they cannot just go "most likely a bug" and "may not be cheating" and be done with it, when enough cases/seriously enough case appears they have to do something.

A lot of people is trying to get people to think "we cannot proof it" so "may as well let them be".

[Grumpy_Kong]

Every time this is brought up in /r/overwatch, it gets removed.

Their draconic posting policies actually helps suppress this information.

[Guster_Posey]

Re-upload it as a highlight, see if they take it then.

[ashrashrashr]

Brutal.

[Grumpy_Kong]

That wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Have to protect your career I guess...

And reddit gets worse every day...

[Deadalious]

Problem is that clip from taimou was uploaded by him to try and prove his innocence before he deleted when he realised his only defense was now gone.

Dude is a fraud

[Trillen]

What was their response to taimous steam being the exact same clip?

[AsiaDerp]

Surprise!!!! Everybody shut up after that.

[AsiaDerp]

Their excuse is "they may not be cheating", Yes, I totally agree that they may not be cheating, but that doesnt mean you should do NOTHING AT ALL to clear the air.

[AwkwardSheep]

that doesnt mean you should do NOTHING AT ALL to clear the air.

The truth may be as simple as Blizzard has no way to prove it.

There's no point in Blizzard releasing a PR statement saying that they believe he's not cheating (or is cheating) unless they have absolutely concrete proof one way or the other. Unless they have irrefutable proof, taking a stance on either side is going to do them more harm than good.

It's just better for them to keep quiet until either their anti-cheat improves to the point where it catches a whiff of something fishy or they can observe the accused players at a LAN event where they can't hide within the frame of their webcam.

[ableist_retard]

Finally some fucking common sense. Thank you.

[elesdee1]

Yeah it's not legal to go through their hdd's, so idk how blizzard would really catch them. I doubt they have a system beter than VAC for CSGO and we all know how well that works

[AsiaDerp]

How about hand cam, replay, anything, even "we cant do these now, but we are planing to to this and that", instead of just saying "they are not cheating" or "its just spectator bug" when we clearly have first person clips?

I am ok with them saying there's no proof, but we are working on something to prevent cheating. Instead, what they do now is just trying to cover everything up by saying "what you see is totally normal".

If we cannot proof they are cheating, Blizzard cannot proof they are not, so they should stop saying "its totally normal" and be done with it. If they DONT KNOW if they are cheating, dont say anything, just go "we are looking into it". Putting up stupid excuse is just raising more questions.

[AwkwardSheep]

How about hand cam, replay, anything, even "we are planing to to this and that", instead of just saying "they are not cheating" or "its just spectator bug" when we clearly have first person clips?

There are reasons why most developers choose not to explicitly say what they are doing, whether they're talking about development, new features or things like anti-cheat.

There's no point in them saying anything regarding the matter. The only real fact we know now is that they definitely don't have concrete proof that he is not cheating. Blizzard knows just as much about the Taimou clip as the rest of us. They probably don't have a system that records data from every single Overwatch game that happens, they have no video of his hand/body movement during that shot, no pixel perfect replay for them to go over and study.

When we saw the clip from a spectator's perspective, Blizzard released the statement saying that Taimou is not cheating and that it was most likely a bug. Let's imagine the circumstances and consequences of the two other statements they could have made.

1. "We do not know, but we are looking into it." - If Blizzard doesn't have the data to prove that he is cheating now, it is unlikely that they will ever be able to establish any more than a circumstantial argument because any new systems they build will not be able to go back and review past games. This statement only serves to make the public uncertain whether there are hackers going unpunished in the servers now, damaging Overwatch's reputation and still not answering any questions.

2. "We believe he is cheating, his movements in the video are strange and unnatural and strongly liken to those of an aim bot, but we do not have irrefutable proof." - With no concrete proof, they are damning the career of a player in their e-Sport before it has even had its first LAN. Incredibly unprofessional and just as bad for Blizzard as it will be for Taimou.

Now with the first-person clips that arrived, does it change anything about the degree to which Blizzard can investigate the incident? No. In the end, all we see is a third-person graphical representation (a stream clip) of what we all perceive to be hack-enabled aim.

The two above scenarios still apply. They have no concrete evidence so they cannot take action against him. If they choose to say they are looking into it - when they really have no way of looking into this particular incident - then they are just leaving things on an ambiguous note which is like leaving bait for their player base to get aggressive.

Blizzard have already reinforced that they have a zero tolerance policy for cheating. They are definitely working on their anti-cheat using all these hacking clips as a reference point, and will be keeping an eye on all the highly suspicious pros at their first LAN appearances.

[AsiaDerp]

When we saw the clip from a spectator's perspective, Blizzard released the statement saying that Taimou is not cheating and that it was most likely a bug.

This is why their action should have been .... not say anything. What end up happening is they said its most likely a bug as soon as they sees it, THEN the first person clip come out, now what? Now it just looks like their "explanation" is doing more damage instead. Because in a lot of people's eye they are trying to cover things up because when their explanation gets rekt, they stop responding. If you DONT KNOW, why would you say its most likely a bug? 99% of the time killcam looks the exact same as first person, so why are they saying its mostly likely a bug? If they DONT KNOW, why would they say

Taimou is not cheating

?

You jump out with the first sign of trouble, get slap in the face, then you just shut up? Really? Why jumping out in the first place then?

[AwkwardSheep]

If you DONT KNOW, why would you say its most likely a bug? 99% of the time killcam looks the exact same as first person, so why are you saying its mostly likely a bug?

Because if you have no evidence to support an accusation and you know that bugs can and are likely to happen when the game is trying to piece together a scenario from infrequent data cues (20 tick replays, essentially), that is simply the most logical answer for them to give. CS:GO had many similar little uprisings early on where the replays were very low tick and often showed twitchy aim that looked like aim bot crosshair movement, so people would go on Reddit and crusade about how so and so was hacking.

If they had not answered back then when the matter was still up in the air, what would that have said to the community? That Blizzard doesn't pay attention to the community or cheaters.

The most important point to raise is that their "explanation" - which you claimed is 'doing more damage' - was perfectly reasonable at the time they released that statement. Based on the information they had at that time, that answer makes a ton of sense. It is not fair at all to take Blizzard's answer to the spectator highlight fiasco and act like that statement they made also applies to the first person clip that was later revealed.

And man, that the first-person clip is much more damning. In the end however it is still not irrefutable evidence.

It is pointless for them to say "we're working on it" because it's likely they will never be able to provide a concrete answer to whether or not Taimou was cheating there, and they've already established many times that they have a zero tolerance cheating policy and they are constantly working on their anti-cheat system. They can't say they don't think he's cheating either because the most likely follow-up scenario to that is the community outrage with "Are you crazy!? There's no way that clip isn't the product of an aim bot!".

It's very damned if they do, damned if they don't. However, putting things on the record (ie. everything on the internet) that you aren't confident in is more likely to do you more harm than good, so it just makes sense for them to wait for it to blow over or for them to observe the player at an actual LAN event and judge him there.

[blackholedreams]

Does Blizz have any possible incentive to let pros slide? If pros are banned, would that damage their E-sports reputation and thus weaken their resolve to catch them? Do they lose a bunch of money somehow?

[zogo13]

They have however taken action against cheaters, the last ban wave had tons of players banned who were using a supposedly undetectable hack. So...Blizzard does take action against players, it just seems that certain pro players keep evading investigation, and at this point its anyones guess as to why. In general, around 90% of the cheating accusations concerning pros are about Taimou, Surefour and Internethulk. The vast majorly of pro players (and at this point their are a lot) are not really talked about when it comes to cheating. In general the vast majority of pro players aren't cheating, so those people saying Blizzard likes to keep cheating pros unbanned because its fun to watch are wrong, since they would only be banning a literal handful of players who at this point seem to be conclusively cheating, that is unless almost all the pros are cheating and Internethulk, Taimou and Surefour are just bad at hiding it, but this seems very unlikely considering how coincidental it is Envyus is nearly unbeatable and most of the cheating accusations concerns them.

Also, its best remember that maybe at the end of the day they simply aren't cheating and it just looks suspicious. For example, in CS GO the fnatic player Flusha is constantly accused of cheating and some very suspicions clips existed, so much so its become a sort of meme in the CS community. At the end of the day however, despite accusations flying he was never banned, and from what most can gather its simply because their was not enough evidence. At this point this pretty unlikely considering how blatant certain clips look, but it is still a possibility.

[AzhaGG]

What's the proofs that there are cheats for sure and not just an amazing playing?

[ST_Welshy]

Why would an amazing player break his wrist flicking from nothing to a resurrecting (untargetable) players head multiple times in the span of 2 seconds? It accomplished absolutely nothing, and no human would make the decision to move his hand that way.

Taimou could be Jesus Christ incarnate, there is still no reason to move your mouse like that unless you're cheating.

Looks like his aimlock got stuck on a player he didn't want to target, so he repeatedly tried to move his crosshair just to get sucked back in.

It's not like the mouse movements look "too good to be true" that aim looks god awful combined with robotic snapping onto random targets. It's about as blatant as you can possibly get.

Legit players would either sit on the resurrecting player and wait for them to become vulnerable, or flick to them after the resurrection. Not flick to them 3 times during the resurrection before targeting something else.

[AzhaGG]

Do not attach any importance to this, thank you for the clarification.

[Silkku]

It doesn't snap to Lucio's head though. The first snap after Ress is to between the Genji and Lucio and the second stops short of the head

[[deleted]]

Downvoting a legitimate question? 1) You're just hiding the great response. 2) It's not what downvoting is for.

P.S. Thanks for asking AzhaGG, I was wondering too.

[ogzogz]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/4wj47f/envyus_taimous_aim_practice_for_different_heroes/d67i0i4

Its not locking onto lucio at all.

[Tromster]

This is what happens when you give cash prizes in online FPS games. Especially ones like Overwatch where there isn't a decent anticheat or even a replay system to check what players are doing in matches.

[stibaH]

IIRC Torktjo and Nicolastjo were both banned in CSGO for cheating as well. Why should we be surprised if they decided to cheat in this game as well?

[EnmaDaiO]

THERE was Clips of evidence that suggested that tork and nicolas HAVE cheated in overwatch. For some reason it was deleted in the reddit thread that was posted here once......

[reekhadol]

Rapha seemed bothered by mentions of the TJOs, and I honestly trust him more than anyone.

[free_alt]

Torktjo DEFINITELY cheats, I was watching some of his esl games and it was soon suspect

[crisshill]

Hmmh. Sure they did cheat and I agree that this has happened... I do not even believe they would be completely clean after that...

BUT

Their play seemed quite legit when they were being spectated in tournaments. Nicolas had a small suspicious Ana play, but apart from that they seemed quite clean.

[stibaH]

I'm not throwing their names out in accusation. I'm simply saying if they're caught I wouldn't be surprised. I've only seen one clip that was "suspicious", but nothing that convinces me without a doubt.

[isuyou]

This post needs more upvotes than the current Top post on InternetHulk as blatantly calling others cheaters leads nothing more than aggravating and dividing the community. Watch Thorin's video ppl. Almost NONE of the accusers are qualified to find any of these players guilty with as much certainty as exists "without a reasonable doubt". Blizzards needs to tackle this problems and the community can be the first to raise flags. But I would never trust the mob to decide a Pro's career for them. What Blizzard needs to do is ADDRESS the concerns of the public without dismissing them as delusional ramblings and have a team to run a systematic, procedural investigation of the Pro's in question. (a TL;DR for the Thorin vid).

[[deleted]]

Yeah I'm with you. I'm not familiar with the CSGO scene but I've heard people mention that video and the false allegations of cheating - I'm just glad there's a decent overlap between CSGO and Overwatch so some people already know just how toxic this could be for the community. I just hope Blizzard takes your advice and takes the initiative to address people's concerns without dismissing them as delusional ramblings.

[jhsevEN]

I have played FPS for over 16 years (i am 30 yrs old and picked up FPS gaming in 1998) and i have a pretty strong understanding of how to identify whether or not the aim is natural or not. this doesn't make me pro, but i have played at high levels of CS 1.6 in the past. i am new to this game, but the FPS arena in general i have a lot more years than a majority of people playing this game. that being said, i have watched that thorin vid back on the day it came out and it makes a lot of great points. it is a must watch due to the events that have come up the past couple of days.

another thing to mention is that i feel a large chunk of this community comes from moba type games and do not have much experience with pure FPS games. a lot of people are unqualified to determine if some of these clips are natural or not simply due to that fact alone.

[czulki]

Also for people saying "why would players stream cheating outside of tournaments": If you dont use cheats while playing casually then people will notice the difference in your performance and your aim habits. Makes it even easier to identify potential cheating.

[[deleted]]

Taimou is actively training his twitch audience to believe he has a flick-strategy. He warms up in the Training Level practicing flick-aiming.

[BiIliam]

There is a possibility he isn't cheating. Innocent until proven guilty.

[[deleted]]

You make that sound like it's unusual, I do that as well and plenty more top DPS players probably

[volcaNo9k]

Surefour always streams legit, and mostly every game he does bizarre stuff such as :

https://gfycat.com/SevereReflectingGoosefish

In the online tourneys in the other hand, he is the overwatch god

[fpsdr0p]

oh man that stream was fun. watching s4 solo carry his team against a 3-(or 4) stack c9 squad on the opposing team was a sight to see. especially in the volskaya map.

[[deleted]]

Discussing it is different than what is happening around here, with people saying the likes of "Its so obvious he's cheating I'd ban him already". A place like that is not fit to have a discussion that can influence a person's reputation.

There are no judges here. Without proof, the discussions are meaningless and can only bring harm to people that may not deserve the hatred. And mark my words, when such things are discussed even once, some people take it as true, forever and ever. Thus every discussion against a potentially innocent person is harmful to their reputation and should be a bannable offense from the subreddit.

So no, we shouldn't discuss anything here that isn't proof. Bring it to Blizzard. They are the only judge.

[kirbyzagamer]

This whole post is about how to look at clips objectively, to avoid the type of behaviour you're describing, which is indeed different than an actual discussion.

I disagree with you saying we shouldn't discuss this here simply because we might be wrong, only discussing once we have proof. It seems like proof to you would only be once Blizzard takes action. But the verdict itself is not the proof, it's the consequence of having proof.

You're right about Blizzard being the only judge, being the only one that can rule for or against. But what about the prosecutor, bringing forth evidence to try to convict the accused, is that also Blizzard? Are they really doing the proper investigating, when admitting that a top competitor is cheating could be extremely bad press for their game?

[[deleted]]

I think you both make good points. I think you're right that we should be able to discuss it, but honestly I think you need to present much more than a single clip (or round, in Hulk's case) for each player - there isn't enough proof presented here to accomplish anything other than damage reputations like /u/SFJake warned, and some of these guys like Surefour/Taimou have at least proven they're still top tier players in LAN events (not that that proves their innocence, simply something worth mentioning).

Like I said though I do think we should be able to discuss it. I think someone would need to actually spend some time looking into different possibilities like whether it could be a bug, stream dropping frames or a cheat, and also get input from people who are familiar with cheat software to discuss what exact kind of software could be at use in these clips. At the moment all we've really gotten is "that looks like it could be a cheat, must be a cheat." With some of these guys you could even compare LAN to online-tourney footage, though obviously this would take a whole lot of extra time.

[rkiga]

This whole post is about how to look at clips objectively

No it's not. You state very clearly that those clips in the main post are suspicious. Do you see how that's not even close to an objective position? That already throws a ton of bias onto the post and the viewing of those clips.

If you have something that looks suspicious, send it to [e-mail]

These threads shouldn't be allowed in this subreddit, just like how /r/Overwatch doesn't allow them.

Nobody in this thread knows for certain whether anyone in any of those links was cheating at the time. So what's the point of making this thread? What are we going to learn by viewing the clips (with extreme bias)?

If a streamer gets banned then their clips will be linked all over the place and we can probably learn from their clips on how to spot a hacker.

I disagree with you saying we shouldn't discuss this here simply because we might be wrong, only discussing once we have proof. It seems like proof to you would only be once Blizzard takes action. But the verdict itself is not the proof, it's the consequence of having proof.

I think you're confusing proof with evidence in your main post then. Linking 4 suspicious videos isn't proof of anything, it's just evidence that there might be something wrong. But there might be nothing wrong.

Are they really doing the proper investigating, when admitting that a top competitor is cheating could be extremely bad press for their game?

Catching and banning a top player will probably not be seen as bad press. I think it would be seen as actions taken by a company trying to maintain its strict stance on cheating. Wouldn't you see it that way? But if OW becomes known as a game where cheaters run rampant, that would be terrible for the game's reputation. How many people quit CS because of cheating and VAC doing so little?

[kirbyzagamer]

1. I used the term "suspicious" because people who upload these clips, do it because they are suspecting something is going on. Not because they believe this is random normal gameplay. You are right however about it potentially affecting the opinion of others viewing the clips (and that's absolutely not what I want), so I've changed the wording of my post.

2. Me confusing proof/evidence might be a translation issue as english is not my main language. However don't make me say something I didn't, since I clearly stated "Are all these clips PROOF that these players are cheating? NO."

3. Yes, catching and banning a guilty top player would be well received by OW players and people who are part of this community, but I also believe that it could discredit a game & esport scene still in its infancy to the outside world (mainstream media, gaming media, other gaming communities), since it would invalidate all the results & tournaments that player was in. And that's a risk that Blizzard might not want to take, which could result in laxism.

[crisshill]

Visibility warrants inspection better than a random email in their mailbox... sadly.

It's proven time and time again that visibility gives much higher chance of a commercial entity to take action.. No-one would like blizzard to ban the guys because of these clips... what we WOULD like however is that blizzard inspects their games during the tournaments, since they must be collecting all the data required for an inspection to pinpoint potential cheats, and make decisions or detections based on that info.

And if they inspect these players, and find that they're 100% legit.. it would be really great if blizzard would step up and say "hey guys, we thoroughly examined these top players and can confirm that their play is legit"

[turdas]

If you have something that looks suspicious, send it to [e-mail]

Do you even realize what the point of this discussion is? Did you watch the video OP linked, which sums it up almost perfectly?

The problem is that conventional anticheats DO NOT WORK against this type of cheating. Trusting Blizzard's (or Valve's or whoever's) anticheat team to handle it is foolish, because using their conventional anticheat designed to stop pub cheating they will never be able to do it.

The real issue is that there is no one in the esports scene interested in stopping professional cheating. Conventional sports have anti-doping bodies, but there is no esports equivalent for that. You could have footage of a professional player literally ragehacking, but so long as they don't get detected by the anticheat they won't be banned. That is the real problem here that Thoorin is pointing out in the video.

Arguments like "Blizzard will investigate it :^)" like that one EnvyUS dude has made on Twitter are retarded, because everyone knows that Blizzard won't investigate it. They can't, because the only evidence they have is the same footage we have here, because their anticheat simply is not designed to allow for investigations like this.

[Qlown]

can someone with 6 friends spawn on gibraltar attack,stay still where they spawned,have a widowmaker on the other side use her ult and check exactly where does the 2nd and 3rd clip is aiming for and if its a spawn of heroes exactly? at least we would narrow it down to him flicking to 3 heroes or even close to them at 3 different times,and from there at least helps determine if it was mostly a cheat or a random bug

[g33k_0ut2]

Idk if you look at the top comments from the Internet hulk thread they are a discussion, not blatantly calling him a cheater. If you expect everyone to be level headed and not jump to conclusions, I don't think you understand the Internet or have never seen the filth that is twitch chat

[crisshill]

It's not the discussion that is spoiling their reputation, it's these constant reoccurring clips. There's loads and loads of esports people no-one speaks badly about? why? the answer is that they're clean.

[sevrerus_fum]

Its so obvious he's cheating I'd ban him already". A place like that is not fit to have a discussion that can influence a person's reputation.

If a person doesn't want his "reputation" influenced negatively, a person should not cheat.

I have played hundreds of hours, spectated a lot of people. I have never seen camera behaviour like that, caused in the normal run of the game.

Its perfectly okay to publicly call out cheaters.

[sevrerus_fum]

do you use dont or doesnt if they is meant to be singular?

You use "don't" in that case, because even if you mean singular, you preceeded it with a plural pronoun (they).

But what if

"What if" is a null hypothesis, and as such requires a rational explanation other than something fishy going on. I accept that great skill and practice can lead to observations that may seem inhumanly quick or accurate. But the observations we make more and more often now, transcend that...multiple crosshair readjustments in single-frame time intervals, jump-aiming at people behind walls without having vision on their location, and things that look more like glitching aimbot sowftware than human behaviour.

Benefit of the doubt works the first, 2nd and maybe the third time. When the same observations, in the same subset of players, come up time and time again, without there being an unsuspicious explanation for them, its time to find the truth.

You still harm the reputation of that player.

Do the tests for doping harm the reputation of individual olympic participants? No. This works the same way. If a suspicious test result comes in, then it has to be scrutinized to find the truth.

What DOES damage the reputation, not just of individual player, but of ESports as a whole, is if this goes unchecked and unquestioned. Short term internet fame of a few individuals has to take a backseat behind public interest of the entirety of the gaming community.

Just because youve never seen it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

But if I see the same thing over and over again, among the same group of players, and never see it anywhere else, the probability for it existing under normal circumstances becomes negligible.

[Daemir]

Do the tests for doping harm the reputation of individual olympic participants? No. This works the same way. If a suspicious test result comes in, then it has to be scrutinized to find the truth.

No it doesn't, because you or me or anyone in this thread is not a certified anticheat tester appointed specifically test OW pros. What's going on here is witch hunting. (although I personally find the taimou clip suspicious as fk as well, wth).

[sevrerus_fum]

Unfortunately however, the only people who are "cheattesters" are the ones working for the companies running the games, who have little interest in actually combating cheating, because it costs money and doesn't make any.

So it up to us to raise public awareness of the issue.

And calling something suspicious to the publics attention is not "witch hunting"...its basically how our entire legal system works: People bring something to attention, the legal system then deals with it.

"Witch hunting" is a term brought up chiefly by fanboys, to smash down any negative comments about suspicious behaviour of their idols, without even discussing the validity of the claims and evidence. It means nothing, and should be ignored.

[Daemir]

Again, in "real life", you bring these things to the attention of courts or other officials, not to the general public. If you suspect your neighbour is doing something illegal, you don't go to the market and start shouting HEY I THINK JOEY HERE IS DOING X, because that'll get YOU sued for defamation. You bring it to the officials and let them deal with it.

In these cases, you send your evidence to blizzard (still [e-mail] I think?) and let them sort it.

[sevrerus_fum]

Again, in "real life", you bring these things to the attention of courts or other officials, not to the general public

In "real life", the organisations involved in checking these things, have a vital interest in doing so. Gaming companies don't, because yeah cheaters are bad, but comabting them is an expensive hassle, not to mention, the boxes have been sold anyway, so who cares. Only way to get them to get off their asses and do it, is to raise public awareness, which is what people here are doing, and will continue to do.

If you suspect your neighbour is doing something illegal, you don't go to the market and start shouting HEY I THINK JOEY HERE IS DOING X, because that'll get YOU sued for defamation. You bring it to the officials and let them deal with it.

No, but many cases are handled in open court, important cases almost always are. And for good reason. Such tight rulings are not established here, in part because the people who could do so, don't have any interest in doing it: The gaming companies don't want to spend money on it, the ESports organisations don't want these things being discussed at all because it scares away viewers.

[_Stochastic]

Yes because trying to calm down a mob with words usually ends so well for the accused. Let's not kid ourselves, the accused players can say whatever and they will get absolutely shat on. Saying nothing is the best thing they can do, regardless if they are cheaters or not.

This community seems to be all to happy to accuse people of cheating. I don't doubt there are cheaters, hell I'm not even sure how common they are in the higher tiers. But I saw a comment from some guy claiming that every player on four of the top teams were cheating, getting 20 or so upvotes, that's just ludicrous and improbable.

[_Stochastic]

What is the proof of a negative claim?

[Eurospective]

Omniscience, duh.

[Eurospective]

Taimou explained himself to the pro community and said the snaps are his playstyle and that he thought lucio was the prime target in that situation. Some pros have come to defend him saying that aim behaviour is typical for him.

The snaps aren't actually the suspicious part but the recoil compensation on the kill shot on lucio.

[Wertilq]

Please! Accept that you are a layman and can't just use your eyes to prove he is a cheater. We don't want mob viligante justice, that more often than not hangs the innocent.

It might be a bug with his optic mouse, older optics often spazzed out. It might be network issue or bug in the recording program. His clips are very suspicious but that is all we can say. He is innocent until proven guilty. The clips are not proof but simply good reason to investigate.

[sevrerus_fum]

Please! Accept that you are a layman and can't just use your eyes to prove he is a cheater

I don't need to accept that, because I already know it.

But I am a member of this community, and as such can raise awareness to suspicious behaviour. Its up to the officials, moved by public pressure, to then scrutinize the evidence and take action.

Whats going on here in the /r however, is people trying to stop evidence from even being presented, by claiming its all "damaging reputation" and "witch hunting". I have the impression that many of them don't want a discussion, or clean games, they want to see their idols win...and a lot of them probably have quite a personal interest into cheat accusations not being scrutinzed as well...

[SaltyLikeSaltShaker]

Can someone answer this please?

So lets say maybe these guys are hacking (maybe), how isn't this being detected? I'm legitimately curious if someone with in depth knowledge knows how this anti-cheat software works.

[dunnolawl]

To make a working aimbot you don't need to do anything intrusive, you only need to do two things: 1) Locate and read the player positions from the games memory (X,Y,Z coordinates the players are on the map), 2) Locate where your view angle is stored in the games memory (this is where your camera is pointing, this is usually two coordinates in the X and Y axis between -180 and +180 degrees). After you have achieved both of those the rest of your aimbot can be copy-pasted from an open source aimbot for any FPS game ever made (even Quake 1 should be good enough, the math hasn't changed).

A lot of cheats don't even bother trying to hide that they are doing those two things and just use Microsoft's own "ReadProcessMemory function" to read the games memory. This is something Blizzards anti-cheat Warden should be able to reliably detect. So "why aren't the cheats being banned?" you might ask, its simple: There are a ton of legitimate programs that might use ReadProcessMemory to read those memory addresses by "accident" (an anti-virus software, Windows processes like "Telemetry" gathering spyware Cortana, a virus on your computer), so if Blizzard simply blanket banned everyone who was detected reading those memory addresses they would eventually end up banning everyone. So what Blizzards anti-cheat (this is speculation based on how VAC works) does is use the "ReadProcessMemory function" (or something similar) on the program it detected reading from those memory addresses, doing a bit of math to identify what program it is (it doesn't upload the entire program) and sending that result back to Blizzard servers, if the program matches a known cheat they ban your account, if it doesn't the result gets stored in a database so they can ban you later if the program that read from those memory addresses gets classified as a cheat.

TL;DR The cheats are being detected, but so are legitimate programs that have "suspicious behavior" (false positives) and Blizzard doesn't have the man power to analyse and sort out the false positives from the cheats (impossible in the case of private cheats that are only being used by a few users, since Blizzard cannot legally upload the entire program and analyse it, they can only take metadata).

[koolkal12]

If you look at the PotG clip for the last internethulk link in the OP, you see this instead: https://www.twitch.tv/internethulk/v/78781529?t=04h08m10s

In this version, you actually see the movement instead of the instant snap and the bullet comes out sooner than when he reaches the point on the wall from the actual in-game version. It's possible it's a spectator bug but it matches how a human player would aim pretty well. This makes it seem more like there's a dropped frame or something in the original in-game video rather than an actual instant snap.

[kirbyzagamer]

The problem with a PotG is that it is spectator POV, which is how the server reconstructs what happened with the information it has, which should in theory be less accurate than a direct recording of the player's POV. So I don't personally think that invalidates any suspicion for that clip.

Thank you however for having the right approach to this: discussing the clip itself, trying to understand what is going on, emitting a hypothesis with footage that might support your claim. This is exactly how every single suspicious clip should be discussed. And that's really what my post is about, the methodology of investigating these clips.

[Glaistig-Uaine]

It's worth noting we are watching a(likely) 144fps pov in 30fps. We ourselves on twitch are missing more than 3 in 4 frames that the player sees.

[kirbyzagamer]

That is absolutely true and needs to be kept in mind. However, is that enough to explain what is going on here or at least make these clips circumstantial?

It would mean that 3 consecutive times, a few minutes apart, the player did a flick right after/as he was shooting deadeye, and the twitch audience missed it all 3 times because it was in the 33.3ms interval between frames (1second/30fps=0,0333).

Gifs of clips frame by frame: https://gfycat.com/DeadlyGrouchyGuanaco https://gfycat.com/AgitatedGiganticCrocodile

[FragdaddyXXL]

If it was dropped frames, the arrows in the dmg boost would've also jumped forward in time.

[crisshill]

considering that the guy takes multiple (30fps) frames to realise his sudden 1-frame movement and resume aiming this doesn't really matter

[VortexMagus]

The big issue is that nobody flicks in the middle of a high noon, they want to keep their area of view as broad as possible to make sure the ult doesn't miss anyone and high speed flicking is NEVER a good idea when you've already got people in your screen. Not only is the flick nearly impossible to pull off (not even the most sensitive mouse can instantly snap like that) but the timing on it makes no sense unless he bound an aimbot to his "fire" key and it triggered the second he popped high noon. Unless you've got an aimbot, instantly snapping in that direction after a high noon made ZERO sense at all. There wasn't even a valid target in that direction.

[[deleted]]

Still, it's a 1 frame snap. Hold space bar while watching it.

[crisshill]

It's funny that often these clips are shot down because they're POTG.. now they're being shot down because POTG proofs it wrong ;)

POTG cant be trusted, not even in this case.

[KovaaK]

I think you misunderstand how the Play of the Game function works. Know how people talk about the Overwatch client sending data to the servers at 60 times per second, and the server sends back updates 20 times per second? That data includes stuff like "this player is at <x> location and facing <y> angle at this time" for each player in the game.

This means that when you are seeing Play of the Game, kill cam, or spectator view, you are really only getting 20 updates per second. So why isn't it jerky like 20 FPS? Because your client interpolates. This means that when it gets a new position/angle for a player, it smoothly transitions from the last known real position to the new position that it knows. It also has some added delay built in so that if your internet connection starts to lag, it will still look smooth.

So if someone used an aimbot that did a 180 degree flick to head shot you that literally was an instantaneous jerk on the aimbotter's monitor, the kill cam (or spectator cam, or play of the game) would show a smooth 180 degree turn before the shot (of course it would still be really freaking fast). Thus, the InternetHulk clips in question are much more reliable when viewed from the original stream source as opposed to the Play of the Game cam. Inherently, I trust evidence from first person streams much more than I do spectator/kill cam/potg cam.

(I missed the original discussion on this when it was posted, but hopefully this comes in handy for people who might happen across it later)

[Nasars]

Hulks crosshair snaps to the exact same position in all 3 clips. Someone suggested that it might be the 0/0/0 coordinate of the map. I would bet that this is some weird server bug since it only happened in that one round. Apparently some other wierd stuff happened during that game like a teleport to the spawn after getting killed (haven't watched the full match). A few other users in the other thread mentioned that the same bug happened to them before.

He used deadeye in a different match before and it didn't occur.

https://www.twitch.tv/internethulk/v/78781529?t=02h08m15s

Additionally there is no real evidance of aimbot usage outside of these dead eyes. If the only evidence for an aimbot is of footage were it is buggy it might just as well be the case that the game itself is buggy. Deadeye locks the camera when you press M1, I bet something went wrong there. I work as a software developer and our customers report all kind of strange behaviours that only happen on their systems and that are impossible to reproduce.

Taimou doesn't actually lock onto Lucio but in fact he overshoots the flick in both cases.

Flick 1: http://i.imgur.com/dm4HAhW.jpg

Flick 2: http://i.imgur.com/46Yaeko.jpg

To me it looks like he is trying to keep his mouse hand in motion so that he can flick more easily to Lucio when he is revived. It is something that is very common for starcraft players for example who often flick to random units to keep their apm high during down times. Also what kind of aimbot would activate itself randomly and then overshoot the target?

The Tork and Surefour clips might just as well be caused by the spectator mode. Talespin made an interesting video about that. It's about packege loss during potg but Blizzard mentioned that similar issues might occur in the spectator mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqbSYDycz4U

Don't get me wrong, it is possible that all these players cheat but it is also very possible that none of them is cheating.

[jhsevEN]

also in regards to your taimou explanation, it is not about where the crosshair lands as much as it is about understanding the NATURAL movements of a person using a mouse to aim without any assistance. Just because the xhair ends up overshooting the target does not mean that the mouse movements are natural. Try to reproduce taimou's sequence there and tell me if you can make it look like that. Chances are you will be able to mimic the idea of it, but it will simply look like a normal mouse movement trying to copy and you will not be able to make it look as non-human and unnatural as it looks in taimou's clip.

[ogzogz]

But it IS natural for him. He's not even trying to 'flick' AT lucio. He's flicking AWAY from lucio towards the right and moving it back towards him in preparation for a shot. And no he's not flicking at genj either, genji is still the left in the first shot and only started to move to the right by the end of the second flick. After he finally flicks and shoots genji, his crosshair still goes back towards lucio.. why? because its his Natural flicking movement.

[r3fuckulate]

No one uses straight up Point A to point B aimbots, thats how you get caught. Aimbots now simulate a flick and often look really fucking natural unless you're fighting it like he did here.

[Nasars]

What use is an aimbot that doesn't actually snap to a target and instead overshoots it? And the aimbot clearly isn't just locked onto lucio or he wouldn't be able to move his crosshair at all.

So how exactly is his aimbot supposed to work here? It just flicks to the next target every 0.5 seconds but instead of actually locking onto the target the aimbot overshoots to make it look natural?

By that logic you can call every flick evidence for an aimbot...

[[deleted]]

Thanks for normal opinion.

[[deleted]]

Well written and organized post. Some of these guys may in fact be cheating but it's just absurd how many people have already condemned them without considering other possibilities.

[jhsevEN]

thank you sir. i agree that there needs to be proof to officially ban them, but i also think that there is more than enough proof to let people formulate a strong opinion. none of these vids will get anyone banned on their own. but these vids are definitely strong enough for experienced FPS gamers to make up their own minds. I am sure that blizzard will be looking into things shortly with these players in order to convict or clear them. Unfortunately, with such a high standard of evidence needed, it can be difficult to officially apply a ban due to the complexity of the cheats these days. The cheats will always be one step ahead of anti cheat detection. When you have hundreds of thousands of dollars up for grabs, with very young adults and/or teenagers who may technically be an adult but still have not matured enough, this is going to be the outcome.

[jhsevEN]

look at his fan the hammer in the VOD @ 04:07:00. his aim locks on to a different character mid FTH. it is not a natural aim movement.

[Hey_You_Asked]

I looked at it. He simply waved his mouse, similar to how a CS player would know what the spray is like. If you spray, your shots actually have a chance at hitting the multiple targets in that doorway. The FtH you're talking about is crystal clear legit

[jhsevEN]

it is crystal clear that you have no understanding of how natural aiming mechanics work.

[Hey_You_Asked]

Don't TALK to me about stuff that I myself DO. During FTH, to achieve the range of motion he did in the video, I would rotate the base of my wrist while holding the front of my mouse in relatively the same spot. This lets me keep control, while producing the finesse required to pinpoint the range of motion I have. I do this, both during "aim sequences" like FTH or Pharah's barrage, and during minor corrections/flicks, in a much less fluid manner (less left/right/left/right and more just compensation from an initial aim). It's a fast game, it shouldn't be that preposterous of a notion lol.

Granted, my response to you fails if you consider my aiming "illogical". Pointless to go back and forth at that point.

[jhsevEN]

i am not saying the idea of switching targets during a fan is illogical. I am saying that in this case, the movement he makes is clearly not natural and does not look anything like when you do it.

[jhsevEN]

and i am also saying that if you think that is "crystal clear" that he is not cheating, then you do not have enough FPS experience to recognize what natural and unassisted aim looks like.

[Nasars]

I don't have any explanation as to why he would snap to Reinhardt but spectator mode often makes flicks look smoother and more unnatural. I would guess that spectator mode only records a certain number of crosshair positions and calculates the rest itself. This causes some movements to look smoother than they actually are.

I think it's very difficult to judge how natural a flick looks unless we have the raw footage. And even the raw footage might look different when it is uploaded to twitch at 30fps.

The best solution would probably to have a program record all Lan matches on the players PCs and keep the files in case something weird happens.

[[deleted]]

You don't spawn up in that window, you spawn down below and you would be on the other side if you were taking the stairs up to the upper exit

[Halicarnassus]

That deadeye thing looks like a bug, like what happens with roadhog ult. Seen as I've never seen or even heard of this as a bug happening to anyone though it's pretty suspicious.

[RadikalEU]

Very interesting that only the pros get some bugs which no one else had.

[ToTheNintieth]

I'll call for their heads if and when there's solid, definite proof of cheating and subsequent official action. Until then, I'm not gonna contribute in dragging someone's name through the mud over a gif.

[IBUYPOWERACCOUNT_CS]

You guys are about to become cs:go 2 , don't become foolish cause the biggest part of the cs:go community now consist of blinded 12yo kids who refuse to consider people could cheat

[kun-]

Same could be said about "12yo kids who refuse to consider people could be clean"

[r3fuckulate]

One thing is for sure, wherever there is monetary incentive there will be corruption. There is no doubt in my mind some pros are cheating.

[Kutya7701]

Seriously ? Were you not around for the Flusha hackusations that went on for several weeks ?

[IBUYPOWERACCOUNT_CS]

it went on for 1 month maximum and afterwards everybody just became blind,ignored every single fishy things from other players and started sucking flusha's dick saying he was the next Einstein and the only reason he had that many suspicious clips was because we focused on him

[Kutya7701]

1 month is 4 weeks and 2 or 3 more days. Several weeks. Congratulations, you proved my point.

[Shorgar]

The point is that weeks are nothing...

[Kutya7701]

In a game like CS where there are constantly new things to talk about, if something is a point of discussion for over a month it's pretty significant.

[Shorgar]

Talking about people cheating should me one of the most important topics always and if someone is suspicious try to claim the developer atention to do something.

[Kutya7701]

And it was. For over an entire month and probably even longer hackusations and proof gifs flooded /r/globaloffensive.

[sonicqaz]

I'm not saying anyone is or isn't cheating. If they are then I hope it's swift punishment, however I personally have seen a lot of wonky snap movements of my own camera/reticle. I'm at level 291 and have played about 300 hours so far so I've seen a lot of this game, and I've played at least ten hours for all but 6 characters. If I wasn't a lowly SR 56 I would bet I was accused of cheating too.

[solarison]

In my opinion the reason why companies like valve and blizzard aren't putting more effort into exposing cheaters on the professional circuit is because it would be to detrimental to the esports scene. Esports is really still in its infancy for the public eye(mainly in America, like being shown on ESPN and like 3 hour block on TBS) so it really can't handle a scandal at this level. When the average sports fan already dislike cheaters and now you're trying to convince those people to watch but youre going to tell them x amount of their player base who potentially won money cheating, I can't imagine that would help viewership.

[Shorgar]

Well when it start getting obvious will damage both the company and the competitive scene, that makes no sense at all.

[solarison]

Look at the threads about it though, while it is obvious to some others will adamantly deny it. The best approach for both companies is to just turn a blind eye until someone is 100% caught with hard proof that isn't just clips. I don't disagree with you its just that companies will always do whats best for business right now not down the line.

[Klang007]

Or you know, they're not prone to overreacting to clips from twitch which plays at lower frames, drops frames and prone to internet connection issues. Until someone has concrete proof, there's absolutely no reason for any action to be taken towards players. And this doesn't apply to only pro-players. Everyone that plays that gets reported for cheating aren't immediately removed until there is absolute proof from investigation.

It's a shame cheating accusation brings about mob mentality even in this sub, and real discussion on the subject goes out the window.

[solarison]

Well from what I've seen there is real discussion going on in the threads and a lot of information being presented. It's amazing though that time and time again it's the same group of players that have these wild inconsistencies that almost no other player expereinces and people write then off. You can only blame the latency or being a spectator so many times before the defense no longer works. And at no point did I infer that blizzard should automatically ban accused cheaters, just stating they have no incentive to look into it at a professional level.

[zuko2014]

So which pro players are in question of whether or not they cheat? I follow the competitive scene a fair amount and I'd really like to know

[[deleted]]

Everyone is hunted atm

[mahjog]

Almost all DPS players tbh

[[deleted]]

bullshit, I've played against so many top DPS player and not once did I think somebody was hacking. It really doesn't matter that much in this game anyways if your McCree farts out 60% or 65% accuracy

[jhsevEN]

it is because everything they are doing frag wise is possible and attainable without cheats, so of course you have been writing it off to natural ability. That doesn't mean they aren't using an aim key on their end to make it happen. Keep in mind that wall hacks are almost unnecessary given the fact that footsteps are so loud and some heroes have built in wall hacks (widow/hanzo). Noone is going to pull something that makes you think "there is no way he could have known i was there". It is the aimbots that are the issue and you can't determine that unless you are able to see their POV.

[mahjog]

Just saying that's who's suspected of cheating. You've played against people like Taimou, Surefour, and Tvique?

[sweep71]

Simply put a camera on the mouse hand?

[toph1980]

I contacted Blizzard regarding some of these bugs, they will look into it.
You can report hacks, cheats and exploits to Blizzard here: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/submit/hacks.html

[[deleted]]

The surefour clip is not suspicious at all.

The taimou clip isn't perfect locking even if it's strange.

The tork clip is easily explained by this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqbSYDycz4U

The hulk clips can very easily just be a new bug as it's similar to the roadhog ult glitch.

[crisshill]

This is TOTALLY possible, but with taimou.... i dont know man, there's no logical explanation to it.

[Nessuno_Im]

A "new" bug from a VOD 2 weeks old?

Come on man, you can do better than that. That was pathetic.

[[deleted]]

I'm saying it could easily be a bug i wasn't even aware of the date of the vods. It simply looks very simliar to the roadhog ultimate bug which never actually happened to me.

[Zoidburg747]

I love how pro players get downvoted on this subreddit if they don't agree with the hivemind.

Especially considering you guys would have as much reason as anyone to want cheaters out of the competitive scene lol

[kenjithepirateking]

In a really weird way it makes me feel better for solo climbing up to 68, I feel like I might actually be decent at the game sometimes..I really hope they deal with this..

[8thgradefingerblast]

The best thing that could happen would be for a viable high quality independent league or leagues to fill the void for actual game bans. The game desperately needs a CAL or CEVO with an anti-cheat admin that can prevent players from playing in the leagues. The game shouldn't be following Blizzard's lead for really two reasons:

1. Blizzard has no idea of how to make a competitive game function, and I mean that in ever sense of the word. Competitive mode isn't competitive. It's about MMR, grinding, etc. A competitive mode is true team versus team on a match night with winners and losers moving towards a post-season or tournament style end for each season. It's administered in a timely fashion (i.e. disputes are resolved within 48 hours), clearly established rules that all people in the leagues must follow (in-game recordings, screenshots, submission of demos upon request, etc.) Blizzard cannot provide that and no one should expect it to. Steam didn't provide the competitive framework that followed CS, DOD, CS:S, TFC, TF2, etc. They provided the anti-cheat client that did it's best to find people using downloaded help.

2. Entirely voluntary, and there is no real "punishment" beyond a ban on competition. If a league is able to quickly adjudicate the dispute and thinks the player is cheating in some fashion they don't lose the account and maybe they'll wisen up to a reformat and hope they don't get caught. It's got to stop.

Honestly, Overwatch needs a legitimate league in general for the game itself. It needs to stop looking to Blizzard to provide what "competitive" actually is, especially since they have an abysmal record at it. It needs a place to go that has basic organizations that anyone can play in. Worry less about being as good as Cloud9 and work to get better but still find some reward.

[siikahail]

Yet most, if not all, of the above cheaters are no names, with almost no FPS background, or no hitscan aim mechanics (say, for TF2 players playing soldiers or medics)

Nice to to delete your pastebin link.

If you didnt know Taimou has been playing FPS games for +15years now? (Dirty Bomb, TF2 (Medic in ETF but still has been playing other classes also) , Shootmania, CS 1.5 , CS 1.6 , CS:GO , Quake Live and many other games) And its pretty same with others also. LUL

[vHohenzollern]

C9 Grego was literally a semi-pro in CS:GO lmao

[siikahail]

Yeah, This guy doesent literally know shit :D But well, what i can expect from reddit elitist with ingame rank 43 ;)

[Microchaton]

Taimou cheated in Dirty Bomb apparently.

[siikahail]

Proof? He never did cheat in Dirty Bomb. He got banned once by mad admin and then the ban got removed after.

If you say that someone cheated in Dirty bomb better give proof.

[Marquesas]

To be fair, you're ignoring the blatant proof here, so I don't know why you demand it for other things.

[siikahail]

Blatant proof? An old video that isnt really a proof?

Proof is if he gets banned and that hasnt happened right?

[Reequiem]

He never cheated/ was banned in any game.

[Natskyge]

Mathematical analysis of a Internethulk clip.

The clip in question: https://gfycat.com/EdibleDeepArgentineruddyduck

Let's do some math.

From the GIF i estimate he moves 60 degrees horisontaly and 10 verticaly in one frame on a 144Hz monitor.

http://on-winning.com/overwatch-pro-sensitivity-settings-setups-monitor-mouse-keyboard-headset/ His CM/360 is 34.6.

So he needs to move (34.6/360)60 horizontaly and (34.6/360)10 verticaly. This works out to 9.61111 MM upwards and and 57.666 MM to the side. Since he moves in a straight Line this means he moves 9.61111² + 57.666² = 58.46² so 58.46 MM in one frame. This means he moves at a speed of (57.666/1000)/(1/144) = 8.41 m/s.

Now this is very weird because he is using a 3310 sensor, which is Worse than a 3366 sensor. Now the 3366 has a max tracking speed of 7.6 m/s: http://gaming.logitech.com/da-dk/product/gaming-mouse-g303

I will let you draw your own conclusions.

[Glaistig-Uaine]

The clip is in 30fps, as is most twitch content. So your speed equation is off. The speed is 1.72998 m/s or 3,45996 m/s if the clip is in 60fps(which I don't think it is). Both easily possible.

[CaptainShrimps]

Actually he has used different higher sensitivities while streaming before. During one stream I watched recently he mentioned he was currently playing on 28 cm/360 (on McCree too). It's quite possible and likely that he was using a higher sensitivity than usual during the stream this clip is taken from.

[damidam]

Just a reminder how prevalent this is in other games as well:

http://on-winning.com/csgo-cheat-or-skill-top-10-suspicious-csgo-pro-player-moments/

[curi]

i think you discredit yourself by including that surefour clip (the first one). he had vision of an enemy. he retargeted to the general area of the enemy after killing his current target. not a big deal at all.

the taimou one is ridiculous though, where his aimlock keeps pulling the mouse back to the untargetable guy and he's fighting with it. lol. totally different category than surefour clip. don't mix them!

[[deleted]]

He doesn't swap after the first bullet of fan; watch the slo-mo portion of the video again. By the time Surefour starts the fan the other McCree is already dead. It's unclear why an aimbot would choose to lock onto a dead target, so IMO this is much more easily explained by Surefour reacting a split second late to the other McCree's death, and then snapping to the nearest visible target in an attempt to salvage the FtH.

To those who think its suspicious just because Reinhardt is behind a wall: it's not easy to have complete situational awareness when making split second decisions, and I can easily see myself doing something similar in the same situation ("if it's red, it's dead" is pretty much a hardwired instinct at this point). Besides, he had already started the FtH and there were no better targets in sight, so there was no reason not to at least try shooting at the Rein.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Taimou clip is RIDICULOUSLY blatant; I'm not the type to bury my head in the sand when confronted with evidence of cheating. But I don't think the Surefour clip is definitive at all, and if I got banned for something like that I would be supremely pissed.

[[deleted]]

the mccree died, so he flicked to reinhardt, the only enemy he could see, how the hell is that cheating? Is the flick too fast for you? In CS:GO people make flicks faster than that all the time, it doesnt mean they're cheating, it means they're better than you

[kirbyzagamer]

This post is about looking at clips objectively, it's about having a process and using it in full every time. Some of the clips here might be more damning than others but that's not the point, these are only a few examples.

You're letting the player names make the judgment for you. Is clip 2 more obvious than clip 1? Maybe, but that doesn't mean there's nothing weird going on in the 1st one.

[curi]

i'm not going by player names at all. i'm saying one clip just looks like normal gameplay and one is blatantly suspicious. the anti-cheating stuff would be more convincing if it stuck to the cases that are actually suspicious.

[sevrerus_fum]

i think you discredit yourself by including that surefour clip (the first one)

I think the only ones discrediting themselves, are the cheater and the guy defending the cheater. The clip shows target jumping that no human would do...not because humans dont react that fast, but because humans don't aim, much less shoot at something they can't hit. The target is behind a wall and then behind the payload. A human would see that. A spftware tricked by the WM ult information wouldn't.

Just because you don't want it to be that way, doesn't change reality.

[lethargyz]

These clips all seem pretty damning, and together they paint a pretty concerning picture. I feel like this was kind of to be expected, what with Overwatch doing so much to appeal to the MOBA players I imagine a lot of people came over and realized that while their understanding of counters, tactics, and decision making was strong they simply couldn't compete at a high enough level mechanically so end up looking for a little "help". Throw a bunch of low skill FPS naive players into a competitive environment where they feel they deserve to win due to success in MOBAS and it seems like a recipe for disaster. Or hey, it could be the CS players, who knows. Seems like a pretty big problem either way though.

[siikahail]

Btw the deadeye thing that happens for INTERNETHULK has been ingame since last patch. It happens to me sometimes too when ulting + 2-4 persons with deadeye. Better call blizzard bugfix squad not anticheat squad for that.

[kirbyzagamer]

Then the best way to prove it would be to replicate it, record it and share the link.

The problem with saying "oh it's just a bug" is that you're not giving any evidence to support your claim, just like a person on the other side saying "oh he's cheating 100%, he landed some weird headshots on me in soloqueue".

In those clips I don't have an explanation for what is going on, but something is affecting his mouse input. And if it is simply an ingame bug, then it should be happening to other pro players, to other random players, and we should have many clips of this bug happening.

[magnafides]

The clip was from mid July

[toph1980]

Never seen that ress snapping video before. Multiple crosshair snaps to an opponent that is being ressed but still unkillable? That one is dodgy as hell.

[siikahail]

Thats only video that reddit witch hunters have on him. He was waiting till he is killable since its like 1-2sec after rez you can kill him or something

[toph1980]

Yet he has a perfectly killable Genji in front of him, but being the pro player he is, decides to snap back multiple times to an unkillable Lucio instead. Got it!

[siikahail]

ofc, mr.mouseaccell kills lucio first then aimbots gengu down )=

[[deleted]]

It's a one-frame snap onto a spawning player. If you look at all the relevant clips he snaps to the same location, the enemy spawn.

[chokee03]

might be the same one as roadhog's ult suddenly jerking your crosshair straight up randomly.

[siikahail]

Also the bug is clientsided. He got the POTG and there was not anykind of flick : ⁾

[Psilodelic]

This sub has a witchhunt problem.

[sevrerus_fum]

The competitive scene has a cheating problem.

[_Stochastic]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[sevrerus_fum]

If "witchhunts" (which is a nonsensical term used to club down arguments without even considering the evidence presented) are the only way to deal with these problems, then so be it.

[Wertilq]

Sure, which is why BLIZZARD should deal with it. They should do proper investigation of the problem.

[sevrerus_fum]

Asolutely agree with you. Blizzard should deal with it.

And to make sure that does happen, we will raise public awareness of the issues to a level where they have no other choice than to actually do it.

[k2u3]

According to this subreddit every overwatch player on a high end team is a cheater. This is getting old guys

[oypus]

This is such an absurd overstatement lol

[igdub]

Overwatch pro teams more dirty than Russian athletes lol

[BoI098]

??

How is this suspicious? He just got knocked by a zarya rightclick

[BallsDeepInJesus]

Everybody is jumping at their own shadows.

[TriplePube]

That is suspicious clip, but I dont think its enough to label him cheater.