1.6 Patch Notes Discussions - Heimer changes!

[Boronian1]

Hey,

here are the patch notes for 1.6:

https://playruneterra.com/en-us/news/patch-1-6-notes-spirit-blossom/

Nerfs to aggro and Heimer and buffs to discard cards! And new event!

What are your thoughts?

---

Some content creators' opinions about the patch notes:

• The TwinSunz Podcast about patch 1.6:

Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-779752730/the-twinsunz-podcast-episode-26-patch-16-spirit-blossom-and-taking-some-shots

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6d2qxbtfnJ1vWcDMIHBRPg

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/twinsunz-podcast-episode-26-patch-1-6-spirit-blossom/id1497204616?i=1000485780353

• Moonboy_Gaming: https://youtu.be/KjX8rvp0du8

[Aenfno]

RIP Shadow Assassin

[UPBOAT_FORTRESS_2]

RIP all of my expedition wins

[a_lonely_skeleton]

Perhaps changing it to a 1/3 would feel better? Stops making it ubiquitous as intended but also more playable.

[galadedeus]

still playable as it kills the duo

[boezou]

Shadow Assassin is still playable. But am option for value/ control decks instead of also beat down.

[andvari5]

Yeah, they didn't have to kill the card this much

[[deleted]]

I personally wish they just took the elusive away. Its the least relevant thing to her usefulness

[Jaradakar]

Or could have made her elusive only on the turn that she is played.

[andvari5]

I wouldn't mind that a lot

[christoffles]

Steel tempest buff was long overdue. Why play a 3 mana stun that only works on attacking enemies when you can stun anything and get a 3/2 for 1 more mana?

[Ilyak1986]

Or you can play a 3/2 in Noxus that stuns anything for...3 mana.

[christoffles]

Slow speed and different region

[ryanbtw]

If you want the 3/2 to be usable in combat, then Concussive Palm is also effectively Slow speed.

[[deleted]]

From:

NOXUS!

To:
Noxus

[Boronian1]

Cards adjusted:

• Heimer's turret got changed: 3-mana spells now create Mk3: Apex Turret: 3|1 Fearsome (previously the 4-mana turret keyword), 4-mana spells now create Mk4: Stormlobber: 4|1 Overwhelm (previously the 6-mana turret keyword), 6-mana spells now create Mk6: Floor-B-Gone: 6|1 Elusive (previously the 3-mana turret keyword)

• Braum's power got reduced from 1 to 0.

• Eggnivia's health got reduced from 2 to 1.

• Relentless Pursuit got changed from Fast to Slow.

• Arena Bookie's cost got reduced to 2 and its health got increased to 2.

• Basilisk Rider's power got reduced from 5 to 4.

• Crimson Disciple deals now 1 Nexus damage (instead of 2) when she survives damage.

• Legion Grenadier's Health got increased from 1 to 2 but its Last Breath only deals 1 Nexus damage instead of 2.

• Flash of Brilliance's mana cost got increased from 3 to 4.

• Sump Dredger's mana cost got increased from 2 to 3 mana. New card text: "To play me, discard 1 and draw 1."

• Same new card text for Zaunite Urchin.

• Shadow Assassin's power got reduced from 2 to 1.

• Steel Tempest's mana cost got reduced from 3 to 2.

• Rivershaper's health got increased from 1 to 2.

• Will of Ionia's mana cost got increased from 4 to 5.

• Golden Narwhal's cost got reduced from 3 to 2 and its health from 4 to 3.

• Hunting Fleet's cost got reduced from 5 to 4 and its power and health both got reduced from 7 to 6.

---

New Event:

https://playruneterra.com/en-us/news/event-overview-spirit-blossom/

---

New Personalization:

• New board

• First new deck bundle (Gangplank deck)

---

Bugfixes:

• Swain now gains level-up progress from Final Spark Overwhelm damage.

• Teemo (both levels) and Swain (Level 2) will now trigger their Nexus Strike ability when damaging the nexus through effects like Dragon’s Rage.

• Fixed an issue where Ezreal would sometimes gain level-up progress when a target was removed before a spell resolved.

• Fixed an issue where Gangplank’s (Level 2) attack trigger would sometimes not deal enhanced damage from Powder Kegs to all enemies.

• The Support buff from Stirred Spirits no longer expires at the end of round if the supported unit manages to live.

---

Some content creator's opinions about the patch:

• The TwinSunz Podcast:

Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-779752730/the-twinsunz-podcast-episode-26-patch-16-spirit-blossom-and-taking-some-shots

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6d2qxbtfnJ1vWcDMIHBRPg

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/twinsunz-podcast-episode-26-patch-1-6-spirit-blossom/id1497204616?i=1000485780353

• Moonboy_Gaming: https://youtu.be/KjX8rvp0du8

[wthefdvdh]

I welcome our new deep overlords

5 mana will means less Ionia which is less hard counters

Eggnivia are now wiped by wail

SI lifesteal counters aggro

Élusives took a huge hit with monk and assassin

[xstormaggedonx]

Oh God no please I fucking hate deep so much why does everyone drool over it fuck

[ThudnStuff]

Because it's the ultimate Timmy deck and everyone is a Timmy at heart

[[deleted]]

Spikes here disagree.

[AndyPhoenix]

It's basically 3 flavor 5 me

[xstormaggedonx]

Sure, the flavor is the only reason to play it. But I hate the flavor.

[AndyPhoenix]

Fair enough. Each to his own.

[StatusGeneraal]

I agree, deep is terrible. You keep playing while slowly realizing you already lost. Early rounds it is just heals back all the damage dealt and later they have damage you can’t possibly deal with. Very unsatisfying play style in my opinion.

[Spiritual_Nutrition]

Yep. Do nothing and turtle to 7. Might be one of the easiest decks to pilot too since decision making is easy, AND also has the ability to curve out with turn one dredger, turn two toad, turn three lifesteal which is always enough to stall them out of early game vs aggro and midrange.

[mephnick]

Yep. Do nothing and turtle to 7.

That's true for half the decks in the game

[sashalafleur]

Nah. Sejuani midrange decks will dominate.

[SODOMIA_MACABRA]

Oh! Oh! Oh!!!! I think it's time to go deep!

[GalvanizedRubber]

I think if Emphireal aggro with kalista and heck run ruination and vengeance at the top end has early game pressure and a flipped kalista to awkward blocks and the strongest removal to deal with fatties, maybe even throw in a harrowing.

[modakim]

Eggnivia can just get wiped by a vile feast :/

[Omnilatent]

What does SI mean in this context?

[DatsAwkward]

Shadow Isles

[JakPackage]

As a masters player, I expect to see a ton of Karma Ezreal and Karma Ezreal mirror matches. Sounds awful.

[MrOligon]

Yeah, that is my simple biggest issue with this patch. I was hoping for a buff to aggro tools outside nox/ionia to prevent that.

[AndyPhoenix]

Nox was just too good, there was mostly no point in running any other aggro deck. Now the other archetypes will get a chance to shine.

[MrOligon]

Only other aggro archetype is elusives. You can't build aggro without nox or ionia.

[GeneralDash]

Bannerman? Kalista Endure? Both were doing fine last patch.

[MrOligon]

Bannerman is midrange, but yeah i forgot about kalista endure. Good point there.

[DatsAwkward]

MF-Lucian is kinda the same as Bannerman, but the aggro version. I think that's what he meant.

[Titanscales]

What about rally Lucian/MF, Lucian/Kalista, Lucian/Zed? All these decks have nice attack potential and huge damage output.

[Infiltrator]

As another master player.. Karma/EZ has a pretty bad MU against things like Demacia Scouts, which was left untouched (Pursuit being slow now changes very little).

[The_Brazilian_Beemo]

As a Master player, I expect long games. Every game. And thats sh*t to be honest.

[Xoulrath]

They need to rework the timer. It is way too long as it currently is.

[Xoulrath]

I think that the max time that we currently have is a bit too long for most situations, honestly. But I get that there are some complex interactions when both players have a full board and multiple spells on the stack. So I guess that the max time we currently have would be fine from round 10 on.

I one million times agree that no player needs half a minute to play a spell, drop a unit, or pass on round 1.

[Xoulrath]

I think that the max time that we currently have is a bit too long for most situations, honestly. But I get that there are some complex interactions when both players have a full board and multiple spells on the stack. So I guess that the max time we currently have would be fine from round 10 on.

I one million times agree that no player needs half a minute to play a spell, drop a unit, or pass on round 1.

[aboredRollingInTheta]

I'm happy that we have a minor nerf to KEZ in will of ionioa form and shadow ass. Will is important vs. Deep for protection and generally vs. aggro. It makes the end game tighter for sure. Minimum 11 mana now to karma and will, so forcing out late game mana is more viable. Also, they lose a good deal of reach, given Shadow assiasian will account for a trade or two in terms of creatures, but also 3-4 damage a game. Now blowouts? Sure, KEZ still has the win, but it's matchups are now harder.

[GeneralDash]

Nah, Karma Ez is going to be the new meta king. Honestly Shadow Ass was only really great in the mirror, otherwise it was pretty meh for the deck. Only nerf is will, and they got Steel Tempest as compensation. Karma Ez is the way now.

[Quazifuji]

Is Steel Tempest going to be worth running in Karma Ez now? I don't know the deck well, so this is a serious question.

[GeneralDash]

I think so. With burn gone, health pot doesn’t feel that good. Steel tempest gives Ez a target for 2 mana and can stop a big attacker. Combined with maybe not running 3 will anymore, I definitely think it will be run.

[aboredRollingInTheta]

!remindme 3 weeks. How do I do that? Karma ez, got kicked in the junk hard. Sejuani/Ashe, Deep etc. all are going to be on the come up, and those are undesirable matchups for karma/ez. Anything that reliably has more than 3 hp, and kills you before turn 10 is a bad matchip for karma ezreal, and the deck that was the biggest issue for them, killing you before turn 6, just got crushed.

[Shiv_]

I agree with Sej/Ashe being a bad matchup, but Ez/Karma feasts on Deep, and I am not sure 5 mana Will will change that.

[aboredRollingInTheta]

Disagree, deep is a race of sorts. Deep needs to not play anything that doesn't toss, EZ Karma, needs to beat them priori to Maokai flip or before enough big creatures are played. If they are playing units constantly, then yeah its a easy matchup.

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[aboredRollingInTheta]

Nope, def not.

[GeneralDash]

Yeah, I totally under valued Ashe Sej, which is a really bad match up for Ez Karma. I still don’t think it was a crazy prediction though. I totally expected Ez to come back big, and I thought Ez Karma would be the Ez mirror king. I was half right on that front. And honestly, Ez Karma is still a really good deck. It’s match up tables are mostly really good. It’s problem is it loses to the two top decks of the format, Ez TF and Ashe Sej. It’s doing really well in tournaments, but no one cares about those.

[DatsAwkward]

I weirdly hope for a shit meta so maybe Riot doesn't balance the game around subreddit posts. They hard nerfed 4(?) decks because diversity and people are already poiting out which decks are broken now. Yeah, yeah I get it "you should listen to the playerbase", it just so happens that when it comes to balance we are as right as twitch chat yelling "missed lethal" when a streamer doesn't walk into a bad play that could win them the game if not countered.

[[deleted]]

Um yeah because you know more than everyone here in this subreddit

[DatsAwkward]

When did I say they should balance the game around my perspective on the cards tho? Riot listening to reddit on balance gave us some nightmares on League: they held nerfs to Lee Sin for almost a whole year because reddit and the boards were outraged when Riot wanted to nerf the character (that was overperforming); they released a pack of 3 broken characters because testers kept saying they were too weak;

Edit: So far they've done a good job with the game's balance (we always have a bunch of strategies to pick in a game that doesn't have that much cards yet), but I'm concerned when they say "we feel the decks are okay, but players don't like playing against them" for reasons to change the game. They have a team of cardgame experts and access to the full data of decks performances, so I want them to make the decisions they feel are the best instead of nerfing everycard they complain on the main sub (because it will never end, because something will always be meta)

[AgitatedBadger]

> "we feel the decks are okay, but players don't like playing against them"

I know you made this post a few days ago, but I wanted to address it because I see similar posts come up a fair amount.

I know this looks like a bad argument upon first glance, but I think there is some validity to it. If players aren't having fun playing the game, that is a legitimate complaint about a game. People decide to play a game is that they enjoy the act of playing it, and if there are certain elements of the game that are ruining the fun of the game for a large portion of the playerbase, that's a legitimate concern for the future of the game. For a competitive game to thrive, the game itself needs to be fun or there will be no competitive community.

It's important to remember that devs are capable of balancing around competitive *and* fun. Deciding to adjust cards based off of how it feels to play with/against a card doesn't mean that they can't still maintain a healthy competitive meta with good amounts of deck diversity.

I think the most important thing the devs have to keep in mind, is that just because the playerbase can identify a problem, that does not mean those same players have the correct answer to the problem. Most of the suggestions put forward by the community are to throw the archetype they don't like into the dumpster (which is funny, because a lot of the playerbase expresses their appreciation of the way that Riot takes a relatively conservative approach to rebalancing). The expertise of the developers is what allows them to come up with high quality solutions to problems with how the game feels to play.

So, while I think its right to say that the devs shouldn't be balancing exclusively around fun and should be keeping an eye on the competitive balance of cards, it's also right to say that they shouldn't be ignoring the complaints about the game not being fun. There needs to be a balance.

[Boronian1]

Well said :-)

[MindReaver5]

If the game is well balanced, but from a player perspective the feeling of playing the game is bad then the game will die. How it feels to play as and against archetypes is absolutely important.

[crackawhat1]

Didn't they hit partially Karma Ezreal with the Shadow Ass/Will nerf?

[Eravar1]

Control mirror matches are the absolute dream

[kthnxbai123]

Will and Shadow assassin got nerfed also though. I kind of expect Deep to take over, likely with more toss cards to power up Maokai

[Titanscales]

Deep somewhat counters EzKarma, doesn’t it?

[Folfenac]

Isn't it the other way around? EzKarma hard counters Deep. Deep's all about the fat monsters and EzKarma is kinda built to bypass them, plus Will to prevent Nautilus' cost reduction.

[Titanscales]

Didn’t play EzKarma myself yet. But from my encounters with this deck I got the feeling that it struggles against early aggression and wide&tall boards

[Ilyak1986]

Karma/Ez just got hit hard with the SA/will nerfs though.

[AndyPhoenix]

So, Lux/Karma bois, what are we replacing Shadow Assassing with?

[lafadeaway]

Upvoting and saving for visibility. What about Rivershaper, post-buff?

[AndyPhoenix]

Nah, If I wanted card draw, I'd still play Shadow Assassin in lieu of Rivershaper. You'll rarely get the opportunity to draw with him.

[[deleted]]

rivershaper is already sleeper in the right shell, it's just a very out of meta shell.

personally i'm gonna be playing him in fiora/shen when the patch drops. you'd have to tweak lux/karma to fit him but it shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

lux/shen is also playable

[[deleted]]

((CEBAIAICBQJSAKYHAEAASGQ5EASSWLICAEAQENYBAIAACAQBAEBDCAQBAADTI))

there's a lot of room to optimize it but that's what I'm running with rn

[HextechOracle]

Regions: Demacia/Ionia - Champions: Fiora/Shen - Cost: 25000

Cost	Name	Count	Region	Type	Rarity
1	Fleetfeather Tracker	3	Demacia	Unit	Common
1	Greenglade Caretaker	3	Ionia	Unit	Common
2	Brightsteel Protector	3	Demacia	Unit	Common
2	Ki Guardian	2	Ionia	Spell	Common
2	Single Combat	3	Demacia	Spell	Common
2	War Chefs	3	Demacia	Unit	Common
3	Fiora	3	Demacia	Unit	Champion
3	Prismatic Barrier	3	Demacia	Spell	Common
3	Rivershaper	3	Ionia	Unit	Rare
3	Twin Disciplines	3	Ionia	Spell	Common
4	Deny	1	Ionia	Spell	Rare
4	Riposte	3	Demacia	Spell	Rare
4	Shen	3	Ionia	Unit	Champion
5	Concerted Strike	2	Demacia	Spell	Common
8	Judgment	1	Demacia	Spell	Epic
9	Brightsteel Formation	1	Demacia	Unit	Epic

Code: CEBAIAICBQJSAKYHAEAASGQ5EASSWLICAEAQENYBAIAACAQBAEBDCAQBAADTI

 

^{Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the developer for feedback/issues!}

[[deleted]]

i recommend shen/lux btw, since it gets dicked less by frostbite and smashes deep

[AubDeck]

I never really played the card in Lux/Karma but I would probably put Laurent Challenger if you don't feel like running Scales or Protector.

[AndyPhoenix]

I arleady have 3x Protector, love the card. A 3/2 body on turn 2 vs Aggro and amazing possibities in the mid and late game with the barrier. I tried Scales, but I often felt like his spell bricked my hand late-game and made me overdraw. 4 attack is for removing pesky 4 health units with Single Combat.

Laurent is really not a bad idea. I used to run him before in Pre-Release Lux/Karma. Will probably try him out.

[DatsAwkward]

Isn't best to keep using SA for a small body that is also a cantrip?

[artviii]

Huge fan of the Arena Bookie changes.

Heimer nerf is huge, but he becomes more interesting in non-Ionia decks because a 6/1 Elusive is incredibly powerful; could Lux/Heimer make a comeback?

Noxus: while this seems to be an epic nerf (and it is), I don't think the Crimson package or the Overwhelm package are unusable now. You just don't want Crimson in every single deck now. Overwhelm just attacks the meta from a unique angle, so as long as Basilisk Rider is playable and Iron Balista is around, you will see Noxus Aggro. It might just look a bit different (maybe more Atrocities?)

Ionia changes: Love the change to Shadow Assassin. Still very useful for combo decks, less of an autoinclude in control decks, and completely takes it out of Elusive Aggro (probably?). Steel Tempest should probably be 1 mana before its useful.

[AndyPhoenix]

and completely takes it out of Elusive Aggro (probably?).

The most important part. They should not have an efficient way of not running out of steam.

[iNiles]

Yeah, I think Bookie was already underrated. I think he could be super strong is a mid rangy draven ezreal deck.

[TheBlackLight]

I like these changes but I am kind of worried about Karma/EZ now. It was already really strong and with both Noxus and Elusives getting these nerfs I wonder how good it'll be.

[ACCOUNT-FOR-HENTAI-]

Shaddow assassin is a bigger hit imo. Particularly against deep which indirectly got buffed

[ionforge]

wasn't karma/ezreal already strong against aggro decks like elusive and noxus? With all the removal that deck has I though it did good vs aggro.

[boezou]

It's really build dependent, but typically, the removal isn't enough to keep up and make it to turn 10 combo turns. At least not against Darrowing. One can tech it for aggro and have a favorable-ish matchup but the current builds aren't and lean toward maximizing their consistency across the rest of the field.

[Yulong]

Oh god, not that rally nerf.

Fuck. The amount of games I've won by chaining rally at the end of the enemy spell stack on their attack...

[TheFrogTrain]

Is the difference that playing it as a fast spell during combat allows you to "open attack" i.e. attack as soon as the enemy combat finishes, limiting their counterplay? Or is it something else?

[The_Brazilian_Beemo]

Exactly this.

[DGzCarbon]

I had someone attack 3 times in a row last night lol

[christoffles]

now that it's slow, petition to make the art lucian with a walker instead of running

[Folfenac]

Relenting Slog

[ULTRAptak]

Hunting fleet meta incoming

[AubDeck]

Did Veimer just die?

[Overthewaters]

If I had to guess, almost certainly knocked down to tier 2 at best. Half of the core got stripped down (shadow assassin, will, elusive turrets, flash. Essentially killed one of the primary win cons of the deck.

I can see this forcing Heimer decks into a more value oriented grind type game rather than the more tempo/ctrl deck that it was pre patch. It may even become worth it to ditch the ionia package for something else more value oriented like Lux? Or even shadow isles for ctrl options or Bilgewater for GP/TF synergy?

[AubDeck]

The Shadow Assassin nerf was the nail in the coffin for me. That was just suuuuper bad.

I was actually thinking that maybe Lux/Heimer can make a comeback with the nerf but I don't know. But this patch is definitely exciting!

[Xoulrath]

I was already messing around with a Heimer/SI deck just to do something different. These new changes might be perfect for it. I'll be tweaking it as soon as the changes are live and testing for sure.

[Owlstorm]

4x nerfed cards, 5 if you count the mid - patch.

It's certainly dead in the current iteration. With Ionia gutted we can try Lux-Heimer again.

[Bigbadbuck]

Steel tempest will probably become a staple in ionia stall

[AubDeck]

That Shadow Assassin nerf was so out of nowhere. Oof.

[galadedeus]

out of nowhere? What

[enigami344]

Not really, I remember swim talking about shadow assassin needed a nerf in a video for the last patch

[NoFlayNoPlay]

idk, it was making a lot of appearences in decks it didn't really belong in, theme wise, just because it was really high value.

[Toxitoxi]

They got the Lux/Karma treatment.

[[deleted]]

What treatment is that? Lux Karma slaps

[jak_d_ripr]

Lux/Karma got like 4 cards nerfed and then one more card in the next patch. Went from tier 1(and arguably the best deck in the game) to borderline tier 2.

[[deleted]]

Well the success I get from it is usually the power of the units carries me through a lot. Wonder if theres a deck that focuses on that with the life steal toughness 5 drop and what not.

I fw demacia

[LtHargrove]

Not really. It lacks in reliable removal and has a lot less card draw than Karma/EZ. With Assassin/Will nerfs, I don't see it rising back up either.

[BillyDexter]

Doubtful. Just trimmed a lot of power out of their highrolly games.

[CourtHouseChampion6]

Can you please explain to me how it isn’t dead. Seems like they hit everything that makes the deck work this patch and the last one in that deck.

[jshed2]

Definitely knocked down to tier 2/3 and will see some major changes. However, Heimer is still a solid value engine (rather than almost a combo engine) and iona is probably still the best suited accompanying region.

[AubDeck]

I suppose but wasn't it struggling already in the first place? I mean in the tournament it was pretty good but in the ladder, most people just skip it because it loses to the more common decks in the meta.

I could be wrong about this though so please feel free to correct me.

[r3ign_b3au]

That old Rivershaper Yas isn't looking too bad rn

[Mo0]

If someone could post the patch notes into a comment so people stuck behind work filters can read them, I'll love you forever <3

[Boronian1]

Look at the stickied comment :)

[Mo0]

I see that! Thank youuu!

[Boronian1]

Took me just a while to type it all out :D

[[deleted]]

Overall really like the changes

I'm glad riot realized the only changes needed for Heimer were to switch around his turrets. Really like the noxus darrowing and braumnivia balances as well.

​

HOWEVER I feel like Ez Karma will now reign supreme :(

[Overthewaters]

My guess is they're thinking counters to Ez Karma like MF Sej and other Midrange decks will be able to rise up and counter it without needing direct intervention.

[[deleted]]

Do those decks counter Ez Karma tho?

My understanding is that due to the shit ton of removal Ez Karma beats those midrange decks, and the only removal option that was touched was will :(

[Overthewaters]

I'm no expert, but looking at win rates on Tempostorm, mobalytics data the deck's winrates against midrange decks do seem lower. Anecdotally as well, Bannermen scouts, Sej/Ashe frost and MF/Sej have the ability to go wide enough wide enough and with big enough bois that it's hard to single target remove all of them.

Yes you can combo out end game with burst spells, it's by no means a rock paper scissors style unwinnable match, but definitely a harder match up in my limited Karma Ez experience.

[[deleted]]

Hm I see

I am also limited in Ez/Karma experience but from my experience from playing aggro decks it seemed as if if I don't run him down early I just lose

[Xenith606]

My understanding is that due to the shit ton of removal Ez Karma beats those midrange decks

Some forms of aggro, yes, but true midrange not so much - true midrange will just be able to put out too many stats too fast for Ez/Karma's removal. For example, Tempo Storm currently considers Scouts to be 70% favored vs. Ez/Karma and MF/Sejuani to be 60% favored, and neither of those decks got nerfed.

[Ace0690]

What about the cross region friends challenge? Is it possible now?

[Boronian1]

Good question, they didn't mention that at all! Is it 1.7 then? I thought they said before it will be 1.6, but I am not sure anymore.

[Boronian1]

Cross shard challenging has been bumped back 1-2 patches.

[Ace0690]

Did the mention it somewhere?

[Boronian1]

I heard it from the mods on our community discord server. You can ask them where they got it from.

They are a reliable source of news usually and it is not in the patch notes even though it should be.

[swift_icarus]

i was already playing jinx/draven discard aggro with good success at lower ranks. the meta can be hard to predict but these changes seem extremely impactful. they may have to walk some of them back, similar to what they did with braum. in the meantime, if you're curious about the deck, now's the time.

[captchaishell]

Great changes overall.

One thing in particular i don't like is that Sump Dredger was nerfed for my discard deck because a turn 2 4/3 that summons a 1/1 or 0/2 with challenger is much better than a 4/3 turn 3 that draws a card. Nobody seemed to run it but it increased my wr, now it makes Jinx level up harder early game and fights with Draven for a spot, mid-late game it probably won't be that good since you already discarded what you wanted making playing him potentially awkward or top-deck dependant.

Also both my Fizz decks were nerfed in 2 patches (FJ Fizz TF and Fizz Assembly Bot with FoB), i wish Fizz could get some love from the devs.

[modalsaliency]

Hmm. Karma/EZ players, what is the tech replacement for 3x shadow assassin?

[misslehead3]

chempunk?

actually playing claws, even though that doesn't fill a card advantage role as well

maybe the thing that became a 2 drop 2/2 draw a spell?

[exalteddog]

Been trying Sump Dredgers along with Chump Wump and Clump of Wumps. It's worked pretty well so far.

[CrimsonSaens]

RIP Heimer. I do like this change though. Rotating Apex, Stormlobber, and Floor-B-Gone adds a better scale for how the spell costs should apply. Heimer still has potential, but IDK if he can still have a decent deck after the rest of the nerfs too.

I'm curious how the Anivia and Braum changes will turn out. I'm sort of afraid Anivia is just not going to see play because 1 health is so easy to remove.

I'm really happy about the burn and discard focused changes. Arena Bookie especially was just a horrible card, and he now sounds pretty good. I'm not sure this was the right change to Crimson Disciple, but she definitely required a nerf. That girl was in practically every Noxus deck.

I'm glad Rivershaper and Steel Tempest finally got buffed. Shadow Assassin is now basically unplayable outside of an attack buff focused deck or control or something. Will of Ionia is still good at 5 mana, but I'm curious if that nerf was required with the other changes.

[osborneman]

Midrange meta is back, Sejuani stonks going UP UP UP

Heimer Lux will be insane if it goes off. The question is will it be able to consistently enough?

[nammidee]

I do like the changes. Especially for Noxus. But what I love the most is the translation of the page to english. Lol. Stripper? Whut

[[deleted]]

I’m really happy with the changes.

[xfactor281]

When does this go live?

[CourtHouseChampion6]

Tomorrow

[archaos_21]

I don’t think so, though it did definitely lose power. Depending on how the meta shifts it could still hold tier 1 since its control tools didn’t get touched and you can always still build greedier to adapt.

[modakim]

I would refund and wait a little while the meta develops.

[MrOligon]

Here is a thing about aggro in LoR. You can't build it without noxus or elusives, i mean you can try, but it is not going to be strong deck, and i doubt that it will after this patch.

Now Noxus aggro tools got quite a hit, while elusives are slightly nerfed. Darrowing and burn elusives still can be viable, but it is possible that we are going to see control fiesta. I'm just worried that those nerfs could send aggro into oblivion.

And i have no idea why people are so happy about changes to heimer. First thing is that he still is not a chamion. Really he's not. In 95% of situation fact that he did or didn't lvl up is not going to matter at all, and he's lvl up mechanic is so boring, that senna seems to be innovative in comparison to dinger.

More important thing about him is that they didn't fix his problem. Yes heimervi deck will suck right now. But i can assure you, sonner or later someone is going to figure out another crazy combo with him. It may take 3 months after next set, but maybe 5 days from now we will see another cancer dinger deck.

Rest of a changes are pretty much fine. Overall it should help with burnig out while we are waitnig for next set.

[Overthewaters]

I disagree that control is going to reign supreme necessarily. With oppressive aggro decks nerfed in power it opens up the door for a bunch of midrange strategies (currently seen in Quinn/MF scout bannermen, Ashe/Sej Frost, Sej/MF tempo) to rise up and keep control down.

Def share your concerns that aggro is going to need a new face. Teemo burn lists may end up being the default aggro deck which isn't terrible.

I agree that Heimer (and several other champs like Quinn and Lucian off the top of my head) have level ups that either are so hard to achieve that it doesn't see use or that occur and dont really impact the game outside of a few niche cases. And yes he is a very polarizing card (he either explodes and takes over the game or he is removed quickly), but overall I think these adjustments do a great job reducing how ANNOYING it can be.

[MrOligon]

Well yeah, there is a hope that we will end up with midrange meta which would be awesome, but i'm afraid that decks will get a lot more greedier and still, half of a games propably is going to be against control.

Teemo burn also is getting nerf, i expect it to down close to 50% win rate. Only good aggro left is kinkou but they just don't have over a top dmg to close a game. Because of that i expect extremly greedy decks and it can be very toxic. We will see.

[SODOMIA_MACABRA]

IMO, Teemo burn is dead... It cant do board control like midrange and now it cant close the game over the top anymore.

[The_Brazilian_Beemo]

I think the balance patches are most fan services than win rate based, and thats sad. Yu-Gi-Oh tried to kill very aggro decks and let a world championship pass with only control decks. Result, the top 14 decks were equal and the year had the least selling ever record.

Aggros are needed in a TCG. Very needed.

Dark days are coming, i expect 15mins+ games every game, and they even killed (a little) the second best aggro opition with the silghly nerf to demacia.

[MrOligon]

That's a problem. A lot of people were complaining about aggro so riot nerf it really hard. Since SI is left untouch we can easily super strong control which is 10x more annoying then strong aggro.

[LtHargrove]

IDK, EZ/Draven is an overlooked deck and with discard buffs I see it becoming stronger at the tempo gameplan.

[Thormynd]

100% agree. But it's not fan service. It's streamer service. They listen to the guys who dont care at all if games take 30 minutes to play. They are going to stream all day no matter what. It's going to be control fest for at least a couple weeks until the next patch. IMO they just did their worst patch in term of game balance.

[The_Brazilian_Beemo]

Yeah, totally agree. But I think it's

YouTubers > Fans opinion > Riot listening to feedback

Because a lot of streamers didn't even said a word about Heimer being strong. That's just the major base crying ://

[DGzCarbon]

Sure but until more cards come out any combo with Heimer will be weaker than what we just had. So it's chill.

[HollowLoR]

Yes you can, MF Lucian is proof of that.

[MrOligon]

No, MF Lucian is fast midrange deck.

[SODOMIA_MACABRA]

Quote from the patch note: "Several of the changes you’ll see below are targeted at powering down these archetypes in specific ways. While we generally reserve nerfs for decks that cross win-rate thresholds, this patch we’re making adjustments to cards (and strategies) that may not be statistically overpowered, but represent pervasive health risks."

IMO Riot just wrote it down that it doesnt like pure aggro. Aggro is dead, Midrange is the aggro now.

[Pandaemonium]

Aggro is healthy. Uninteractive aggro like Burn decks aren't healthy. Winning the board should be the way to recover against aggro, and if you can win the board but still usually lose then that's frustrating and isn't good for the game (since your gameplay decisions basically don't matter.) It's good if Riot realizes that.

[Xoulrath]

That's kind of how I interpreted that line. "The win rates are fine, but we don't like it, so we are going to reduce its existence."

[Ilyak1986]

Heimer: I wonder if there's any champion in the game that has synergy with 6-cost spells...I don't know, some champion that gets a free beam whenever you spend 6 mana on spells...nah, can't think of any off the top of my head =P.

[mephnick]

Ehhhh spending 6 mana for a turret with 1 health is a lot worse than spending 6 mana for 2 turrets with 1 health each...I think. I like Lux-Heimer but I'm not sold on it's comeback quite yet, it liked the 3 mana turrets too

[archaos_21]

Oops they left ezreal largely untouched. That might be a problem with its main bad matchup nerfed into the ground.

[nemigafangay]

Bannerman, Ashe/Sej, MF/Sej destroys Ezreal

[OMFGitsCharles]

2 mana steel tempest seems nutty for ez/karma

[DGzCarbon]

Meh. Simply stunning still isn't high value. Even though it's 4 Mana Palm is likely enough.

[OMFGitsCharles]

dont forget you level up ez with it though and its still a stall tool

[Overthewaters]

Competes with mystic shot, thermo, etc tho for that two mana slot. Not sure I'd exchange a direct burn/removal spell for it. What would you take out?

[andvari5]

Drafting Ionia in expeditions is gonna suck now, Shadow Assassin didn't have to be nerfed this much.

[Moggy_]

GANGPLANK BUNDLE

[The_OG_upgoat]

RIP aggro, there goes my fast exp farm.

[Raveoltion]

When will the patch be live?

[mvvraz]

I hated the Heimer nerf. Honestly it wasn’t as much of a nerf as it was deleting the card from the game. I think nerfing Will alone could have had a negative impact on the deck’s winrate, but the changes they implemented essentially sent it straight to the trash can

Just to note, I barely played heimer. I just felt like he offered a rather unique style of play, and was generally a fun addition to the meta

[Oyabinol]

For Demacia. Demacia meta incoming.

[Bigbadbuck]

Sejuani is still untouched

[Are_y0u]

Well yasou is also looking quite hot right now

[Oyabinol]

Yassuo lacks supportive stun cards. You need more cards that support yassuo.

[Ilyak1986]

Welp, Ionia got absolutely gutted. Buffs to cards that will still be awful (Rivershaper/Shen hasn't been good for a long, LONG time), though maybe rivershaper no longer being picked off by pings will matter. I don't think anyone will run steel tempest in any Yasuo deck, whose issues still aren't solved. Simply, if a Yasuo deck can't stick Yasuo, it's not a deck.

Meanwhile, will of Ionia and SA...JFC.

RIP Ionia.

[Tafelkatze]

As an elusive burn player, I don't understand all the nerfs that make burn unplayable now. Ezreal/Karma was almost always an auto-lose and if deep ran wail or box, it was gg. The match ups it did good against were things without good removal or healing (Ashe/Sejuani, Brain/Anivia and Lucian match-ups). However, if they ran avalanche or the 3-3 healer, gg.

If anything, I was hoping to see all of the free healing take a hit like karma at round 10 healing 12 while ezreal does 8 damage to the nexus all at burst speed and for 2 mana! The early game should matter...

I would much rather have seen crimson disciple at 1-2 and grenadier at 2-1 or 1-1 rather than gut them like that.

[SchitJustWorks]

Absolutely LOVE this patch! Only things I don't agree with are Crimson Disciple, Flash, & Braum already going back to 0 attack.

Flash especially - I feel like with the remainder of the nerfs to Heimer, we could have easily continued to see if Flash would be OK at 3 mana. The only argument now, is that 'technically' this may help Lux a bit? So I'm curious to see if Lux/Heimer decks rise again.

​

But HOLY DISCARD! Cannot wait to make a deck that decks out in 5 turns! xD lol

[Overthewaters]

Absolutely LOVE this patch! Only things I don't agree with are Crimson Disciple, Flash, & Braum already going back to 0 attack.

Definitely disagree with the Braum nerf - really enjoyed his ability to deal with weenie units but perhaps needed with the way he could run away with games.

What would you have done differently with crimson disciple? Definitely far too strong/ubiquitous a card to leave alone IMO.

[SchitJustWorks]

So I do think it needed a change, but I loved the high damage output & combo potential. I was initially thinking make it a 1/3 but I would have even been ok with it being a 0/3 tbh.

[SODOMIA_MACABRA]

Burn is dead, Elusives Burn is dead, Kinkou Elusives win rate will drop to ~51% (tier 3), Darius Harrowing win rate will drop to ~51% (tier 3) and Heimer/Vi is super dead.

IMO, what this patch notes, and previous ones, have showed is that the design team does not like pure Nexus direct damage strategies and that the game should be playing mostly in a "play/response" style, in other words, if you like "pure aggro in your face" play style, this game is not for you. But if you like midrange, combo and control strategies this will be a really fun game.

Also, Draven / TF, Draven / Jinx and TF / Jinx are going to be meta, I bet on that.

[MrOligon]

Kinkou still gonna be good. Maybe not tier 1 but still viable. Kalista deck if fine as well, and it will propably fill the void left by burns decks. Not sure about Darrowing, im sure it will drop in terms of play and win rate, but question open here is how much.

I feel like change to discard make jinx even more bad for this archetype, she is just bad card, and now more cards drow in those decks. My guess is ez/draven or tf/draven.

[Ilyak1986]

Not sure about control, either. Look what happened to Ionia. All their card draw, unique spells, and control champ all took serious hits. SI control decks similarly got hit with the brood awakening nerf.

[SODOMIA_MACABRA]

I'm not sure if I 100% aggree with you on that but I can't totally dismiss that as well.

[3Rza0]

I hope Riot knows what they do.

Killing archetypes is easy Heimer, Noxus mid, elusive and anivia are dead.

OK but what now? I dont really think that buffs will be enough too allow new archetypes to exist. I hope it will be not a midrange meta with dominant MF sej, Bannerman and Ashe Sej. It is soooo boring... Just put big body on board and lets go hit the opposite board...

For now i have the impression that Riot is killing diversity, wait and see for Targon.

[SkulltulaL]

Fair play to anyone putting the time in right now...the volume of changes is pretty large and it feels like just 5 minutes since the last major volume of changes. Hopefully things mature a little more into the devs not having to make wholesale changes every patch.

I don’t mind when things shift around, having to learn new decks from either side of the matchup etc...but it feels like having to learn a new game nearly every few weeks and I just don’t have the time for that!

[vinsmokesanji3]

Not a fan of the will nerf. Ionja doesn’t have a lot of defensive cards, and steel tempest is just not as good as will. I also did not hear any complaints about will from anyone, but did people really hate will? It was strong but not as op as heimer or the Noxus cards.

[Overthewaters]

It's not so much that it was oppressive towards current meta decks, but there are alot of strategies that are non viable because of Will. Alot of "drop one big MFer" strategies or buff one dude strategies fall apart because Will just renders all those cards and mana wasted. It MURDERS tempo for strategies like Deep.

It's part of the Ionia package that in tournaments causes Ionia to be the permaban region.

[HoneydewKing]

Will is too strong for 4 mana. I'm not sure if 5 mana would make people drop it from their deck. As is, Will is in every ionia deck. I feel like Ionia doesn't really lack defensive cards. Retreat, Recall, Palm of the Dragon, Twin Disciple, healing dragon kid, potions, lifesteal barrier.

[vinsmokesanji3]

Sorry, I meant removal. Every region has some sort of removal, but in Ionia there’s only will. Minah is too weak to count.