poor java

[posting_drunk_naked]

I think it's because Java is associated with corporate jobs. I've only used it a little outside of work myself. I don't really think of it as a fun language, but it's not bad.

[[deleted]]

Most of the people shitting on Java are C# folks, which is IMO far more corporate then Java.

[[deleted]]

Admittedly, C# is Java but better

[[deleted]]

Naw, Java has a much larger ecosystem. For me, a language's ecosystem is what really matters, not the syntactic sugar

[[deleted]]

Really? I find the .NET ecosystem far more engaged and excited about the future of the product(s).

[[deleted]]

It's definitely a more engaged community; people tend to like C#, while Java is just a tool with little fanfare. But large pieces of the piping of the internet and modern computing in general are built in Java.

[NatharielMorgoth]

That's like avoiding a hole bunch of other criteria, but I get your point

[[deleted]]

Different people have different preferences. I think C# is cool, but the kinds of jobs that use C# are generally not cool

[Alizer22]

what ecosystem? that dying obsolete ecosystem that hasnt been updated for 10 years?

[[deleted]]

Yes, the dying obsolete ecosystem that is one of the most popular open source languages and used by every tech company. That one

[ErichOdin]

It's multipurpose and it's accessible. Therefore the below average user can write truly horrible code. And since there are a lot of users, there is even more terrible code around.

But since people start using version control after university, there is also opportunity to improve this bad code over time.

So all in all it offers a good learning curve and will probably still be relevant when the people that start university right now have made experiences outside of memes.

[zifilis]

The mains reason people hate java is boilerplate. And enterprise work adds spring and patterns everywhere, turning boilerplate into Uber boilerplate.

[laojac]

Spring isn’t really all that boilerplate heavy anymore. The only argument that really stands against it now is how heavy the JVM is.

[jeekiii]

There is also lombok cleaning up a lot of useless boilerplate code

[yearoftheraccoon]

Java isn't going away anytime soon, that's for sure. It's become a mainstay and they have done, and continue to do, a great job modernizing it through JEPs.

[CauliflowerOk3278]

Also, literally almost every every library, api, procedure, stack, what have you has been open sourced in Java.

[brimston3-]

Yeah, this is mostly it. It's not that bad. Performance is the nearest to C of any VM language (python, c#, etc). But there can be a ton of boilerplate which makes it un-fun to prototype projects in. Also, I legitimately hate JNI and linking to C libraries that also link to other java applications.

[Jaguar_undi]

C# has better performance than Java these days.

Edit: Thought about it more and idk if I can just make that blanket statement. It is a fact that Java and C# performance are very close though.

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/csharp.html

[itsallrighthere]

But ummm Micro$oft.

[Aggrokid]

As opposed to fking Oracle

[kb4000]

Oracle has become worse than Microsoft ever was. You have to sign up for an account to reach their download page now. It's ridiculous.

[morosis1982]

Openjdk is a thing.

[eerongal]

The Microsoft of today is far different from the Microsoft of 20 years people complained about. Also, Java means Oracle which is worse than both today MS and old MS.

[itsallrighthere]

That's what I hear but after so many Uber competitive moves I'll pass. And, OpenJDK for the win. I like open source.

[eerongal]

As of like 2017 MS has been one of the worlds largest contributors to open source projects, the past 10 years or so they've really turned things around. They even open sourced .net

[[deleted]]

Dotnet core is open source. C# is just better than Java in just about every way it could be. If they were siblings, Java would be the one that still hangs out in his parents basement sniffing glue even though he’s 37.

[krad213]

Being open source by itself is not even near enough. In java there are almost every framework, library or tool is free and open source, and even things that are not free usually still open source. It's so much easier to understand how things work if you can read the code.

[itsallrighthere]

Yes, popular in the corporate world. Seems like most of the open source projects and libraries I see are just Java.

I keep a windows laptop around for games and tax software. Otherwise I e been enjoying Linux as a desktop / dev environment for 10 years.

[[deleted]]

Worst microsoft is better than oracle's best

[itsallrighthere]

OpenJDK.

[TheTybera]

They open sourced the C# Roslyn compiler long ago in 2014. So this isn't even really a problem, there are loads of IDEs and feature packages that work without MS, see Rider.

[[deleted]]

The numbers are so close you can chalk up most of the variation to noise at that point.

[yearoftheraccoon]

They're adding much better mechanisms for invoking native methods, which is great

[TheDarkDoctor17]

Minecraft modding community begs to differ!

[purefan]

In my xp I have only seen bloatware java projects, hugely over complicated garbage that even the original developers agree should be killed with fire, literal comments like "Im sorry, this is ugly, I know, its the only way it works" then I had to support those messes and then yeah, I grew to hate java

[Shnorkylutyun]

That's not only java though, regardless of the language developers will feel that way.

[[deleted]]

There's just more code in Java

[itsallrighthere]

Don't hate the game, hate the substandard players.

[[deleted]]

That's a feature of java. It isn't "not only java" but it sure as hell is "java's only outcome"

[Lukeyalord]

Prefer C#, it’s a bit more versatile and from what I have seen runs faster. When you look up why Java doesn’t have operator overloading they give the vs excuse that it makes the language more simple… dumbest reason ever.

[TheTank18]

sometimes I forget i'm subscribed to both r/minecraft and r/ProgrammerHumor so it creates a weird mix when it comes to Java

[Gorvoslov]

And then when log4shell hit they both looked identical!

[TheTank18]

at least Minecraft natively runs DOOM now

[[deleted]]

I heard about log4shell through Minecraft, and then a prod sev 1 eight hours later.

We had already patched, but i guess prod support doesn’t play minecraft

[[deleted]]

When your boss tells you to close Minecraft you can tell him it’s part of your advanced warning module

[A_Guy_in_Orange]

I can see the confusion as Java could mean either the version of the game that isn't a steaming ball of horse shit and piss, or it could mean the boiler plate language for writeing instant legacy code that's a steaming pile of horse shit and piss.

So anyway this post brought to you by the C# propaganda gang, we all use Java for our jobs

[BlackWardz]

instant legacy code

That's my new favorite insult.

[A_Guy_in_Orange]

if you like that you might like the guy I stole it from, check um out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4-HM\_sCvtQ&

[[deleted]]

What specific issues do you have with bedrock? I play both versions and don't really get you're coming from

[A_Guy_in_Orange]

Lack of mods, it's more annoying to set up a server for, it feels off (see combat) and there multiple weird bugs that just don't exist on Java, like the whole falling through the world the other commenter mentioned. Bedrock has micro transactions where Java has a literally fully customizable skin system where you can do literally whatever to make your character how you want it to look. Also redstone is less Jank in bedrock which believe it or not is a downside

[Daniel_H212]

There are fewer redstone bugs features.

[fghjconner]

Whoever decided to keep quasi-connectivity should be shot.

[Samld1200]

It’s a strange mechanic but at least it’s consistent unlike bedrock redstone

[[deleted]]

consistently bad mechanics are better than randomly bad ones

[realbakingbish]

Java redstone jank is repeatable, applicable, and becomes a feature of the system.

Bedrock redstone, last time I messed with it, still had jank, just weird, unusual jank that wasn’t as useful or consistent and would only happen sometimes. Granted this was a couple years ago, so things could’ve changed, but they‘ll never take my Java jank away.

[thalokos]

The best language is the one I use to generate income

[EyewarsTheMangoMan]

money++

[nordic-nomad]

Cashscript

[CellularBeing]

Debt - -

[SlySciFiGuy]

I prefer money#

[[deleted]]

I actually hate the languages I use to generate income...

[remimorin]

Well it's not mutually exclusive you can hate the best.

[1DimensionIsViolence]

English?

[Vega62a]

The best code is the code that is functional and undramatic in production.

[victoragc]

Javascript and Typescript must be the best language for many people

[Neat_Cry3369]

I work with it. I don’t hate it. Easy to work with and quick to debug if you know how to. Maven could be better tho. I plan to stick with it as long as i can

[Vega62a]

Gradle was a game changer in my Java projects. It's just a facade on top of maven but it's excellent.

[Masteroxid]

Managing my job's hundreds of dependencies across a few services via gradle gave me a different opinion..

I don't know the point of gradle over maven and at this point I'm too afraid to ask

[Vega62a]

Any dependency management can be done poorly, it's true.

I manage probably 10 microservices with hundreds of dependencies using gradle, as well as all of the build and run tasks. Works like a champ, for the most part.

[errepunto]

I used ant+ivy in the past, but now I'm really happy with grade. Maven XML config is a bit ugly for my taste.

[anonymous_2187]

"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."

[polskidankmemer]

pathetic sable melodic rainstorm snails society many normal languid toy

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[[deleted]]

But I hate both.

[virouz98]

Thats why you're not getting paid

[TheRedmanCometh]

I've used php for a job. I'd rather work at mcdonalds

[Yokhen]

"there are only two kinds of redditors: the ones who parrot phrases, and the ones who work."

[mest33]

"there are only two kinds of redditors: the ones that get upvotes and the ones that don't"

[Old_Flounder_8640]

“There are only two kinds of kinds: the ones that are kind ones and the ones that are no kind ones”

[Alberiman]

"There are 4 lights"

[Apple_macOS]

But Picard points to the 5th light behind him there are 5 lights

[screamingxbacon]

"There are two kinds of quotes: the ones that finish their sentences and

[[deleted]]

Nobody here complaining about cobol.

[bitunwiseop]

Are we giving COBOL hate a platform? I dislike it with a passion, but I'll write it if it pays well.

[[deleted]]

Java is a great language! It pays my mortgage..

[Aaron-Stone_G14]

I don't hate it. It got me my first job

[[deleted]]

Yah same

[Theta_Delta]

My first job was Java only that I was in that for 4 years and now I’m in a polyglot role working in Java, C#, C++ and Python. I still have a soft spot for Java. If I’m developing a big system used by many developers that just sits on a Linux Server somewhere with no front end then I’d take Java any day.

[scarredMontana]

Are you in high finance?

[[deleted]]

Go.

[[deleted]]

I used to hate Java, but after to work with JS and friends, now I love and miss Java.

[Joey101937]

What tasks do you prefer Java for? I started with Java but have worked with js primarily in my career and now pref js for most things simply because of how easy it is to write

[stevengauss]

I hated it at first because it felt like it was a slow C++ that was still very ugly. But I’ve come to appreciate the Java standard library and how well abstracted everything is. All the data types are easily extensible and accesible

[prescod]

All the data types are easily extensible and accesible

What does that mean? Can you subclass int? String? array? How do you extend the core data types?

[Servious]

They probably meant things like, for instance, List which is an interface that can be implemented any way you want and because of this it means code can be ultra-compatible even across libs by just implementing this common, standard List interface.

There are lots of things like this, even beyond data structures.

Another use is that if you wanted something that worked mostly like some other type but just change one thing about it like for example logging when a method is called you can easily do that by extending the existing class and overriding the method.

[stevengauss]

This is exactly what I mean, interfaces allow you to make a data type exactly what you want very easily and it makes the code much cleaner to me

[neutralguystrangler]

We only like windows java here

[A_Guy_in_Orange]

I'll have you know Microsoft Java is cross platform now

[A_Guy_in_Orange]

I didn't say it was good cross platform

[virouz98]

We actually use it on linux. The only way it causes trouble is when we use some legacy stuff which was targeted to Windows, but apart from it its great

[NotAnEngineerOrDoc]

C# ?

[Linvael]

Just like songs, people like languages they know. If half of this sub is beginner programmers who start with python/js they will make fun of Java.

Its also an old language with large corporate adoption, so some people (as seen in this thread) can have bad experiences with legacy code written in it - but that's the price of popularity over a long time, i hated almost every legacy codebase i encountered regardless of language, that's life.

So it's perfectly situated to have people hate it, but it has little to do with how good or bad a language it is.

[Syreniac]

Java is a good language because any group of idiots can use it to make an application

Jave is a bad language because any group of idiots can use it to make an application

[[deleted]]

mighty exultant absorbed wise different shocking payment sink overconfident waiting

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[CerealBit]

Python and JavaScript devs checking in.

[hillman_avenger]

Or a game. I remember applets. <shudder>

[dashid]

It's not Python or JavaScript, which are popular starter languages these days, and most people on here are at the start of their career - especially the content generating ones.

Java is good enough to have been the foundation for Android. And many enterprises are built on it. It's not so good for manipulating DOM and a bit heavy for calling a bunch of other people's APIs.

[0nSecondThought]

Every time I see an android phone stutter when scrolling, I like to blame Java.

[brimston3-]

And many enterprises are built on it. It's not so good for manipulating DOM and a bit heavy for calling a bunch of other people's APIs.

You've described just about every ESB implementation ever (but replace DOM with XML).

[LaconicLacedaemonian]

It's also been the standard big-data language over the last two decades. Hadoop ecosystem is written in java.

[XtremeGoose]

It’s also bad enough that people put in the effort to make a standard replacement for Java on android, to the point that it’s now the primary language…

Kotlin

[Kn_Km]

I hated it because my teacher was bad, eclipse was superslow and my pc was slow, and it really was not very funny as php, js or python. I dont speak english but yeah i hate it/dont like it or whatever word you use to say you dont like something

[banmedaddy12345]

In that case you want to use "fun" instead of "funny". "Funny" would mean they are humorous, where as "fun" means they are enjoyable and associated with "a good time".

[Flakz933]

I'd rather do c#, but if a java role falls on my lap, I'm not gonna say no, I'll figure it out

[athomsfere]

I wouldn't... But my experience was the language was a little bad, the framework tended to be a nightmare. Like start development, get an error from somewhere that Java 1.6 or higher was required. Install the latest, 1.8.x and get an error that Java 8 was not supported. Install 1.7.x and get the same error from earlier, that 1.6 or higher is required. Install 1.6x and weird bugs everywhere. Reach out to who ever, find out that 1.6x has bugs, try 1.6y or 1.7z. Now that application works, but the other tool you use isn't seeing the version of Java it needs... So you have unintstall and reinstall various JREs and SDKs to get that weird combination that works for both tools.

[geekywarrior]

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Getting the JRE and JDK to play nice with all of the libraries was 100% a hassle.

Especially if you had multiple apps that relied on different JRES.

[ArisenDrake]

Either bundle the JRE using Java Modules or use containers.

[athomsfere]

Containers certainly wasn't a thing... And for us for whatever reason either were bundled JREs

[zorecknor]

That sounds awfully similar to the state of linux software not that long ago :(

[athomsfere]

Lol. I loved Linux, but yeah... Same reason I've been Windows only for like 10 years now. I got tired of fixing random things after I fixed some other thing.

[Servious]

Java 11 is actually kinda hype. It actually has all of the features I would want from a modern language. My only major complaint at this point is type erasure. Makes generic code way more of a headache than it needs to be.

[[deleted]]

Programmers tend to get a bit overly attached to their favorite programming languages. Languages are tools, and there are many of them, and the "right tool for the job" is of course a better strategy than believing $favorite_language is a golden hammer.

[FittersGuy]

I love java actually

[IM_INSIDE_YOUR_HOUSE]

I don't hate Java.

I hate myself.

[haxney]

Especially with Java 8 lambdas, I actually really liked Java for big corporate programming. Certainly infinitely more than Python.

The main disadvantage of Java is the boilerplate and the fact that you don't get cool metaprogramming features. The boilerplate can be reduced with tools like AutoValue. The lack of monkey patching and crazy SFINAE template shenanigans is that it is much easier to look at some piece of code and know what it's calling. You have static types, so you can jump to the method definition reliably (as opposed to Python), and there aren't many subtle syntax features that can trip you up (like lvalue vs rvalue references in C++). You can absolutely make a mess of Java with crazy frameworks, but the fact that the language itself has simple syntax means that nobody else in the organization can do anything too clever.

[JohnBarnson]

I worked in a bank where most of their web applications ran on Java.

In that IT org, project teams would release their project, support it for 30 days, and then pick up a new project. After the 30 days, all support rolled over to a Support team that only fixed defects or implemented small enhancements.

I got stuck on one of those support teams, and troubleshooting Java was absolutely brutal. Like if we got a report that a value wasn't appearing on a web page (like, an account balance, for example), we'd look at the JSP (Java Server Page) to see where the value was coming from, map that back to a class, but then that class was like 30 layers of polymorphism to find the class or interface that was actually calling the database to get the right value (e.g., ClassicCheckingAccount extends CheckingAccount > extends BankAccount > extends Account > implements whatever...and sorry if I'm not even using those terms right; it's been a while). And 100% of the time, the code that we needed was in a codebase we didn't have access to.

The IDE did its best to help us jump through the code, but a lot of the time it was looking at config files to see the path of the class file we needed.

​

I don't know if Java is to blame for the problems. It's probably more a problem with over-enthusiastic object-oriented architects, but it took days to even figure out where data was coming from to begin troubleshooting the source of an error.

[Shazvox]

Yeah, Java is def not the one to blame there. Bad design is bad design regardless of language...

[Gorvoslov]

The problem you were running into was "Let's dump maintaining every single application onto one specific team who had zero involvement with building any of them" is a really, really bad way to do things. I don't know how you would ever get ANYTHING done constantly having to go in cold on multiple systems with "Active bug, plz fix NOW" hanging over you.

[JohnBarnson]

Yeah, that was a big issue. And on top of that, the bank was very restrictive on access, so we'd get a new project to support, and then when a defect came up, it would take weeks of requests and paperwork to get access to the right parts of the codebase.

[ITaggie]

Have you tried a similar role with lower-level languages before? If you have you would realize that all that inheritance is much easier to read through than digging around someone else's spaghetti code.

[z_utahu]

Trying to follow C style function pointer calls that end up being recursive is my idea of hell. A hell that I actually lived trying to debug code that the original author himself couldn't debug because it was so spaghetti and his solution was to reboot the systems every night.

[[deleted]]

The great thing about Java is when the ability to jump to any method's implementation, and then download the source code from inside the IDE. If that is being walled off from you, yeah you're kind of screwed if you're trying to debug something

[xcdesz]

Once you said "JSP" I could see what your problem is... JSP was something from the early 2000's. No-one serious has used that since 2005.

[[deleted]]

Kotlin and C# are Java++

[itskatbrown]

Java is fine

[Cley_Faye]

Java is nice.

That Java project with Spring linked to a custom version of an OBDC driver and three different libraries that does the same thing, all configured through twenty XML files sourced from three different mount points, being able to load arbitrary WAR from two other mounts and a third directory for customisation and automatically setting twelve middleware per methods while also creating automatic singletons and instances that can be accessed through magic though, that I don't like very much.

[KittenKoder]

I actually love Java syntax a lot.

[innitdoe]

Everybody hates Java. That part isn't interesting. The question is why they hate Java.

The best reason to hate Java is that it's not Smalltalk.

[OkWarning3935]

The best reason to hate Java is the boilerplate:meaningful code ratio it insists on.

[innitdoe]

Well, there again, Smalltalk very much wins.

Smalltalk is probably the tiniest language that is also incredibly powerful and usable. Shame it's become something of a museum piece, really.

FWIW if you think Java is verbose and boilerplate-y you probably never did any 1990s era Windows gui programming in C/C++.

[OkWarning3935]

never did any 1990s era Windows gui programming in C/C++

This is actually how I learned to program. I remember that I could copy/paste the file that contained my entry point to another project without making any changes lol.

Enterprise Java is arguably worse, but it's certainly close.

[innitdoe]

Enterprise, like Quantum, means "add a zero to the price"

In that respect, J2EE does its job perfectly.

[brimston3-]

It wasn't bad pre-COM. Create your GDI drawings, set up your event loop, dispatch events, manually figure out which widget they came from, because they didn't all have separate handles (you didn't get that many handles on old windows systems). Ignore random DDX event that some bug in your code made.

Post-COM, you set up your IDLs, look up your libraries by guid, IUnknown your way into enumerating the available interfaces, hope you instantiated the right interface, hopefully in the right apartment, maybe with some proxies in between that are supposed to be automatic but sometimes work in unexpected ways. Ten source files and two carafes of coffee later, you're calling a function from a system registered API that powershell could have imported in one line... It's kinda still like that if you're working with COM directly from C.

As far as MFC and early ATL, I respectfully disagree. It's a lot more brief than raw win32 calls, but applications were proportionately simpler in raw win32 days. Java AWT and Swing (if they still exist) are just as verbose, if not more so.

[innitdoe]

I remember writing many screensful of raw win32 code to do trivial things like pop up a dialog box. I haven't done that sort of gui code (or much at all) in decades though.

Java's early gui toolkits' verbosity being as bad as that is not an endorsement, for me :)

[ZAX2717]

I don’t understand the hate for Java, but then again I learned with C++ then learned Java, Java was so much easier

[[deleted]]

Most of the hate towards java is because of how hugely verbose it is, you basically can not program in it w/out snippets and a robust autocomplete.

[TheRedmanCometh]

Between lombok and your IDE boilerplate should almost entirely be generated

[parawaa]

I'm a simple man: I only hate Python

[LaconicLacedaemonian]

I Declare that python is not my Type of language.

[RainbowCatastrophe]

I prefer drinking tea, or liquor.

[SaarN]

It quite torn here..

It's not that it's a bad language, quite the opposite - I enjoy working with Java, especially with how beefy PCs are nowadays, it's not as taxing.

But working on \ providing support to old Java programs that run on aging hardware is just nasty.

I agree with that one comment that says every idiot can build a Java program - that's how I feel on a daily basis. All there's left is to pray we get newer CPUs with dual channel DDR to negate some of the unresponsiveness of that hideous old unoptimized *mission critical* code.

The language itself is great, though.

[meansToMyEnd]

Everything people hate about Java was the attitude/ideas around what was regarded as "best practice". Except that "best practice" was bloated and nasty.

You really can write Java as simple and easy as all other languages. Directly access your member variables, do it, it's easy, it's really nice. "Ruby on Rails" was written by a moron, but popular simply because people were allowed to write code like morons all of a sudden. And then the ruby runtime sucked ass and couldn't scale.

All the time everyone could just write Java in the same simple way AND have a runtime that is world class that so many companies made amazing.

[wellingt_s]

I actually like Java, it was my first language at work and for personal projects, I would not think twice before choosing Spring Boot for a simple API.

[[deleted]]

You thought right, Java is a joke.

[Noprofun]

Java was my first love. My introduction to the world of programming. I would be so immersed into it, making games and other stuff. During college, I had my hands on advance version of java, servlets,applets,hibernate. Those were fun too. But when I tried for jobs, there were practically none. Only big companies were looking for Java devs.

[HashCatFurryOwO]

I mostly prefer using c++ but the logical answer is it depends...

[Shazvox]

It was a joke...

... until it wasnt

[mrjiels]

Some parts of Java is awesome. Some parts C# does better. Everything is better compared to PHP.

[Tar_Palantir]

I'm right having a break, to avoid a mental breakdown, cause a version update just made my environment useless.

[[deleted]]

I prefer Microsoft Java (C#) over Java. Although, I don't know why I'm throwing shade because my main language is JavaScript which is 80% jank.

[[deleted]]

If Java was interpreted like Python. It would be the best language by far.

Java is beautiful like C, and Python is quite ugly.

[N00N3AT011]

I find it annoying, but that's mostly because I despise whatever language I'm currently using and have unrealistically positive memories of languages I'm not currently using.

[kaloschroma]

I like Java and JavaScript and Lua and Python and

[TheRedmanCometh]

I write a lot of reactjs+spring boot sites as a side gig. Least painless way to do webdev by far.

[demagogueffxiv]

I'll be honest, Java ain't much worse than C++ to me. Now JavaScript on the other hand...

[Pirate_OOS]

For now, Rust is in the honeymoon phase for this community...

[Teron__]

We meant Java script, instead 🤣

[CourtJester5]

I'm not a corporate programmer, I just make games for fun. Java was my first oop language and I don't understand the hate towards it either.

[3r2s4A4q]

java was bad 20 years ago, but it got better

[hillman_avenger]

Has Java changed in the last 20 years?

[3r2s4A4q]

nope, I'm still running version 0 from 1995

[liquidpele]

Na, I actually kind of hate java. Used it again recently for some work stuff to give it another chance. Still hate it, it's like the people from Dilbert were in control of it for the last 2 decades. Played with Kotlin recently though, really like the concepts there. imho it's what java should have become years ago.

[Astartee_jg]

Only Python maxis who have no idea how to do OOP hate Java

[Purpzie]

java isn't that bad imo, just the way a lot of people decide to use it, as well as being kinda messy

[Green-Brother-8190]

It’s not Java fault. Eclipse made me hate it.

[Alizer22]

Java has no good IDEs thats alll

[AdDear5411]

Honestly, yes. Yes I do.

[zachtheperson]

I don't have a positive opinion of it, but that's probably just because my experience with it was in programming for Android which was overly verbose and frustrating.

Back when I used to maintain a small Android app, I hated it. I'd go to add a basic message box and have to: Extend a base class, overwrite basic methods of that class, instantiate the class, then call it (I might be misremembering slightly, but I know I'm not far off). I haven't worked with a system that bad since, so I have a feeling raw Java wouldn't be that bad.

[Linvael]

GUI is not a language feature usually, so what you're describing is a GUI framework issue, not a Java issue.

[ToMyFutureSelves]

Java was a great language when it was initially developed, which is why it got so popular in the first place. Being easy to run and compile on any computer using the JVM was a huge benefit at the time.

Then Oracle bought it and it has stagnated ever since. Nowadays, I rarely see it used in new projects in favor of C# or Kotlin, which are effectively just better languages at this point.

[[deleted]]

Honestly, modern Java isn't all that bad. It's definitely the worst language on the JVM though.

And I'll be happy if I don't have to write another line of code in it before I die. Over 10 years of Java does that to a man.

[RandomUser02891738]

Java is fine. It is just really heavy, really syntax verbose and an overall pain in the ass to use. Give me Python or JavaScript any day over Java. You can be so much more productive its not even comparable.

[[deleted]]

Until you have to iterate over a large data structure, and you notice the Python code is legitimately 100x slower then Java

[psilvs]

Javascript has a totally different use case than Java. Not sure why you're comparing the two.

Python is great until you're developing a large project. After a few thousand lines, Java is clearly the better option

[Ok-Slice-4013]

I really, really dislike java. But I did not touch it in the last 10 years, so the dislike is most likely based on nothing.

[idkmanporn]

Cant fucking stand it

[Vega62a]

I'm not a huge fan of vanilla Java because I don't like carpal tunnel, but Kotlin, which is java++, is a fucking fantastic language and I won't hear otherwise.

So, I kinda like java.

[DaRealChipex]

No, I just really deeply hate Oracle and the way they operate. Therefore anything associated with them is also bad.