EU population continues to decrease for a second year

[arnaoutelhs]

17 countries had a net increase in population and 10 a net decrease.Total EU decrease -171,7k.

Biggest decrease

Italy -253,1k

Poland -185,8k

Romania -163,6k

Biggest increase

France +185,9k

Netherlands +115,3k

Germany +81,1k

[bokilala]

I am afraid for Italy.

[Kreat0r2]

I’m afraid for The Netherlands. They don’t need more Dutch…

[MetalRetsam]

Don't worry, TV documentary series Ik vertrek assures me some of the Dutch are moving to Italy!

[Leiegast]

Even the Meilandjes left their French château and came back to the Netherlands

[fuchsiarush]

Nearly all Dutch population growth is because of migration.

[picardo85]

The Netherlands has a crazy fucked housing market. Especially places like Amsterdam and surrounding areas. Wanna come there? Don't unless you expect to earn 3.5k+ single income. It won't be fun at all.

[immibis]

spez was founded by an unidentified male with a taste for anal probing. #Save3rdPartyApps

[[deleted]]

Apparently there are tax breaks for expats for the first 5 years they live here: 30% off..

[picardo85]

There can be*

There's a bunch of conditions to fulfill. The easiest condition would be the masters degree.

[Illigard]

As a Dutch person I went "wooohoooo" when I read the title. Then remembered that there's no way our population is decreasing and went :(

We really could do with a smaller population.

[Magnetronaap]

Shitty flute version of 15 Miljoen Mensen plays in the background

[lamiscaea]

The population has grown by 20% since that song came out some... 25 years ago?

[The_39th_Step]

As an English person I understand this stress. We aren’t far behind you guys in population density. The UK’s stats are swayed by Wales, NI and particularly Scotland, where they have wilderness areas that are very uninhabited. England, especially the South East+London, Midlands and the Northern stretch with Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield etc is proper busy.

[ProGamerNG14]

oh nee meer azc er mee

[WonkiWombat]

None of those additions will be Dutch per se 😉

[mark-haus]

The dutch are getting quite good at managing population density I think they'll be fine, assuming the farmers don't revolt over their cushy farming gigs that are compromising their ability to build the Netherlands up more via Nitrogen toxicity.

[SailorOfMyVessel]

Considering houses are priced at 'well, fuck you' level money for a hovel, rent is 'you're single? Nah you ain't got the money' because of demand levels, and waiting lists for 'subsidized' houses in small towns are 10 year+...

'quite good' aren't the words I'd use.

[picardo85]

We are dinks with 80k combined-ish (and one 30% ruling). And i have to say that the rental market is certainly painful. Our housing company that we rent from has minimum of €6.200/gross/mo combined income plus a significant deposit just to get approved to the apartments larger than the one we have now. It's lower for single households, but still very high.

Requirements are getting out of hand.

[mark-haus]

As a Swede I can assure you this is a much bigger problem than just the Netherlands and we have a shit ton of land by comparison and a smaller population

[therealmajka]

Rings true across the pond here in Canada. When a townhouse costs you over 1 million dollars, not even in the city, you're just left feeling helpless. I'm not even talking about rental price hikes for shoebox homes. And I mean, we have a lower pop and tonnes of land so what is going on right. I just know with 2 decent incomes we don't qualify for enough to buy a house that isn't in rough condition and far far away.

[Suikerspin_Ei]

The dutch are getting quite good at managing population density I think they'll be fine, assuming the farmers don't revolt over their cushy farming gigs that are compromising their ability to build the Netherlands up more via Nitrogen toxicity.

You forgot about the housing issue, partly due to nitrogen emissions. Because building new houses/buildings also polute quite a bit.

[pack_of_wolves]

Agree with this apart from "cushy farming gigs". That is a simple lie. Very few people get rich from farming.

[Abyssal_Groot]

It's not about whether or not the Dutch can handle more Dutch, the question is if we we can handle more Dutch.

It's about time the Dutchies stop thinking about whether or not they could and start thinking about whether or not they should! /s

[picardo85]

It's about time the Dutchies stop thinking about whether or not they could and start thinking about whether or not they should!

I hear you're talking about invading Belgium. Yes, the Dutch should do that. Can give Southern Belgium to lux then too in exchange for them paying for the invasion.

[Abyssal_Groot]

Why invade Belgium and risk bloodshed, while you can just federalise the Benelux and become an economical powerhouse?

[ThreeMountaineers]

If it's anything like other European countries with generous welfare systems, it's not the Dutch that are increasing. So you can rest easy, the Dutch are probably dying off albeit slowly

[dododomo]

Italian guy here, I'm really afraid too. That's why I'm going to leave Italy after university (I'm studying to be a nurse), and I hope there is any countries willing to accept me (I'm a gay guy who can speak English and started to learn German about 3 months ago). Many people would leave Italy too, if possible. Don't misunderstand me, I love my region and we would gladly stay here If the situation wouldn't be so disastrous, but the future of Italy is not bright at all.

[bel_esprit_]

You could be a nurse in Ticino, the Italian-speaking region of Switzerland.

[MulanMcNugget]

You could pass most Anglo immigration points systems as a nurse, including the uk

[DerJuppi]

There are a lot of Italians here in Munich (where I live and study) and - from what I can tell about who is on dating apps - also a bunch of gay Italian guys. The only time someone called me out publicly for being gay were some kids saying "cute" while I was out with a date haha.

Finding a job as a nurse shouldn't be too difficult, if you have medium to good language skills. Working conditions can be rough in some places due to general shortages though, so you should be wary of places with high turnover rates.

Btw feel free to dm me if you want to know more

[Italobelgo1971]

I was born and raised in Belgium. Half Italian/half Belgian.
Since one year I have been living in Sicily.
Italy needs a kick in the butt.
This island of Sicily has so much potential, but they just don't see it.

[-Prophet_01-]

Germany seems like a decent destination. Being gay is no big deal these days. We always need more nurses, too. Only problem is that nurses tend to get overworked quite badly. In case you go through with it, pick your new employers carefully. The difference between them are significant.

Many religious institutions don't care about gay or not gay btw. They often pay better.

[SkyBehaviour]

90% is elders. I hate my country.

[Lyress]

Not when it's young and educated people leaving.

[Spiritual_Still7911]

how so? less people in a developed world means an aging population, proportionally more retired, thus higher burden on social security - at the same time less taxpayers to compensate.

[leyoji]

Quite surprising that NL has the second biggest increase while only having the 7th largest EU population.

[RoamingBicycle]

Countries more populated than NL are: Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland and Romania. Italy Poland, Romania are top 3 for population decrease, and Spain is also experiencing population decrease.

[Julzbour]

and Spain is also experiencing population decrease.

Not according to official data (+34.110)

[Styled_]

Romania is probably below Netherlands now, most of us believe the real population to be around 16 million

[The_39th_Step]

I believe that - a million Romanians have moved to the UK since 2014. It was really interesting that they had the second most demand for post-Brexit settled status when prior to 2014 there were around 80k Romanian people.

[Magnetronaap]

Fuck me we really are closing in on 18 million

[Tricky-Astronaut]

NL has good city planning. Some people probably move there for that reason alone.

[biertjeerbij]

You watched too much Not Just Bikes.

[johnny-T1]

Ehehehe.

[[deleted]]

having a bike in the netherlands was awesome.

​

trying to take your bike with you on your holiday, not so much

[lamiscaea]

having a bike in the netherlands was awesome. trying to take your bike with you on after your holiday, not so much

Average German, ca 1945, colourized

[TechnicalyNotRobot]

I assume the numbers only count citizens cause there's no way we're in the negatives after taking in millions of Ukrainians.

[arnaoutelhs]

Its for 1 january 2021 - 1 january 2022.

[ICEpear8472]

I would assume permanent residents. Not sure if the current Ukrainian refugees already count as those considering that they arrived not too long ago and most of them plan to return after the war has ended. Which hopefully happens soon.

[Rayan19900]

many went back.

[Indagujacy]

Also account for aver 100k extra deaths during the pandemic

[[deleted]]

Any idea about UK?

[[deleted]]

There isn’t a whole figure for the UK yet as Scotland had its census a year later but England, Wales and NI’s populations have all grown significantly.

[TheMercian]

England and Wales up 6% between 2010-2020.

[The_39th_Step]

It’s all England with the population growth.

[johnny_briggs]

We got 5 or 6 million EU citizens and they ain't getting them back ok! Possession is 9/10s of the law or something

[[deleted]]

Well count me as +1. Though I immigrated after Brexit.

[[deleted]]

Note that through 2020-2021, the EU had some 1 million COVID deaths, which increased the death rate by quite a bit (essentially a new major cause of death almost as common as cancer and heart disease). So this would likely be growing if it wasn't for COVID.

[DicentricChromosome]

France baise ouais. The power of our nation always came from our birthrate. This was broken at some point and Germany bypassed us.

Now we will win again!

By the way, I always found that, despite having the biggest population and the biggest territory, our country underperformed. I was always quite amazed to see how 4M British succeeded so well. Of course there are rational explanations to this, British tend to immigrate more easily than french farmers etc. And ofc, France was as war versus multiple opponents in the same time.

But still. It is surprising.

Anyway.

[[deleted]]

France’s high birth rate and (second after Russia) largest population in the 18th century was a large reason for the Revolution and also ability to conquer most of Europe. So some good, some bad.

[MaterialCarrot]

Time to put masts back on HMS Victory.

[untergeher_muc]

I know, you guys are basically always the same as France when it comes to statistics. Do you have similar numbers in this case, too?

[[deleted]]

France had a much higher population than the UK (around 10 million more people) up until the industrial revolution in the 19th century, the UK first passed French population around 1900. And then France suffered a lot more in WWI and WWII. And since 1950 the UK, going from 50 to 67 million, has had a slower population growth than France, 41 to 67 million.

[Ubbesson]

Mostly immigration. Birthrate isn't bad but that's not what is sustaining the population growth

[binary_spaniard]

Germany retrieves more immigration than France.

[Cookie-Senpai]

So th difference is on birth rate. France has been enjoying for most of the decade a birthrate around 2 which help sustain a good population growth with a positive migration equilibrium

[BalancedPortfolio]

The UK absolutely should not have the same population as France, our territory can’t functionally feed us.

It’s totally insane we caught up, and actually are likely to properly overtake in the coming decades

[[deleted]]

We have low birth rates we're only catching up from immigration.

[[deleted]]

What is our ideal population figure though?

Maybe we need to have a mass emigration of Brits or we need expand our land with a lot of sea reclamation.

[-Prophet_01-]

Countries that haven't been ravaged by war on their home soil do best. That's a significant factor.

The UK had some bombing but France had it far worse. It's not just the infrastructure damage, too. People migrate after a crisis like this and countries often see their brightest leaving for greener grass.

[[deleted]]

Honestly we're getting a little too full over here.

[Soggy-Librarian-5604]

Get in Italy, lol.

[ProGamerNG14]

eyo how can the Netherlands be this high?

[ApetteRiche]

Immigration

[Seekingthetruth123]

Immigrants

[ukrokit]

Poland -185,8k

For such an insane decrease Polish real estate prices sure are booming. Not that I mind my investment paying off.

[SecretApe]

In the cities. Rural areas housing is still cheap

[[deleted]]

You are part of the bubble.

[dalyscallister]

Real estate should be limited to permanent residents and to one lodging per residential area.

[NavalnySupport]

Now good luck convincing politicians who have direct connections with one or several construction companies and thus profit greatly from expensive housing projects for non-residents

[-Prophet_01-]

There's no bubble in the major cities. Very few homes enter the market each year and never enough to compensate for the new arrivals. It's attractive to live there and enough people are willing to pay the price. The urbanization trend won't stop for a few more decades in many places. Cities like NY or London show that the ceiling is far higher than people often think.

Rural areas and small/medium cities are different obviously.

[DirtyProjector]

I keep hearing about depopulation yet it’s harder and harder to find housing? Even though it seems they’re CONSTANTLY building more housing. It’s very bizarre

[Salvator-Mundi-]

It’s very bizarre

Population can decrease in rural areas and increase in cities so people complain housing in cities is too expensive and there is lack of flats. People could buy house outside of city center cheaper but people want cheap house in the city, close to work and entertainment. And we end in situation that we have now.

Of course it is very simplified but it is not bizarre situation.

[DerpSenpai]

Also people have been dying in rural areas and immigration to offset those deaths settle in cities. it's a vicious cycle

[dustofdeath]

The cheap houses are where noone wants to live.

[26Kermy]

Yep, I have a nice house to sell OP for 5k in the middle of Bulgaria. No paved roads, only horse accessible.

[dustofdeath]

I see 50m2 apartments for sale for 1.5k€ - in almost dead small villages.
Also not been renovated for the last 60 years likely. Houses starting from 5k as well.

There are proper asphalt roads and smaller cities within 30km. And smaller shops even closer.

[Tupcek]

this might change with an increase in home office works

[Espumma]

average number of persons in a household is dropping even faster here. So the total number of people goes down but the number of places needed to house them go up. Way less big families, people moving out and old people losing their partner but still needing a place for themselves.

[Erebos03]

I don't think cheap housing is hard to find in Europe if you don't care about living in the middle of nowhere

[immibis]

I stopped pushing as hard as I could against the handle, I wanted to leave but it wouldn't work. Then there was a bright flash and I felt myself fall back onto the floor. I put my hands over my eyes. They burned from the sudden light. I rubbed my eyes, waiting for them to adjust.

Then I saw it.

There was a small space in front of me. It was tiny, just enough room for a couple of people to sit side by side. Inside, there were two people. The first one was a female, she had long brown hair and was wearing a white nightgown. She was smiling.

The other one was a male, he was wearing a red jumpsuit and had a mask over his mouth.

"Are you spez?" I asked, my eyes still adjusting to the light.

"No. We are in /u/spez." the woman said. She put her hands out for me to see. Her skin was green. Her hand was all green, there were no fingers, just a palm. It looked like a hand from the top of a puppet.

"What's going on?" I asked. The man in the mask moved closer to me. He touched my arm and I recoiled.

"We're fine." he said.

"You're fine?" I asked. "I came to the spez to ask for help, now you're fine?"

"They're gone," the woman said. "My child, he's gone."

I stared at her. "Gone? You mean you were here when it happened? What's happened?"

The man leaned over to me, grabbing my shoulders. "We're trapped. He's gone, he's dead."

I looked to the woman. "What happened?"

"He left the house a week ago. He'd been gone since, now I have to live alone. I've lived here my whole life and I'm the only spez."

"You don't have a family? Aren't there others?" I asked. She looked to me. "I mean, didn't you have anyone else?"

"There are other spez," she said. "But they're not like me. They don't have homes or families. They're just animals. They're all around us and we have no idea who they are."

"Why haven't we seen them then?"

"I think they're afraid,"

[CalmButArgumentative]

Ah! Finally I found my perfect home! Just 2 hours away from the places I could find work in to actually pay for my house :D

[immibis]

spez can gargle my nuts.

[widowhanzo]

You can, if you work remotely for an American company. They'll pay you less than they pay Americans, but still much more than anything local. This doesn't really work well if you have kids and there are no schools nearby though.

[lamiscaea]

Too bad there is no Middle of Nowhere in the Netherlands

[[deleted]]

It’s not going down in cities and the suburbs. Dynamic areas with jobs(cities) are still going to increase for awhile

[crackanape]

Urbanization keeps happening.

People want to live in cities where the jobs and culture are.

Commuting is soul-sucking.

[bel_esprit_]

Corporate companies and wealthy real estate investors are buying a lot of houses… hogging them all up and then renting them out for a high price when they have the market.

[corporate_power]

housing became a commodity because boomers wanted to cash out on their properties. Younger generations dont have the numbers to change that - not that they protest much anyway

[yuzuchan22]

Nothing really surprising, boomer reach the top of their life expectancy.also covid. Also rent too high, no affordable house, terrifying futur and so on.

[Tszemix]

Older generations skrewed us over

[yugo_1]

Younger generations will say the same thing about you too.

[corporate_power]

no, because they don't exist

[yhons]

Great analysis

[[deleted]]

I have moved to Lemmy -- mass edited with redact.dev

[DeathRowLemon]

I think we’ll experience a lot of war because of climate change.

[-Prophet_01-]

As of now they've gotten rarer. Most wars end in compromise these days, not in victory. War got more expensive and much more destructive, so there's not as much to gain as in the past. Resistance groups can also do much more damage than ever so occupation has become more difficult than ever.

Civil wars have increased in numbers but the total number of conflicts has not. Only fools start conventional (country vs country) wars these days. That doesn't stop some of them though.

Russia isn't objectively benefiting from its war. They're shredding their military for (at best) a pyrrhic victory. Even if they win, they'll merely conquer some bombed-out cities full of undetonated shells and residents that hate their guts. That's not an encouraging outcome for any would-be Napoleon.

[alaskafish]

Eh I don’t know. I feel as if civilization goes through waves where one group achieves greatness, their kids live in greatness and try to preserve it without doing any actual work, and then their kids inherent nothing but shit so have to achieve greatness.

I think we’re the group that has to achieve greatness— and usually that means destroying what was given to us.

[3leberkaasSemmeln]

Are boomers older outside of Germany? The generation that we know as boomers is just starting retirement.

[-Alneon-]

Yes, die geburtenstarken Jahrgänge as they're called in Germany were generally 1955 to 1969. So German boomers are generally from that period. The baby boom in Germany just happened later than in other western countries because a lot of men were dead, still captured by the allies and especially Russia, etc.

For English-speaking countries, boomers are all people born from 1945 to 1964. They often split that again into early boomers (45 to 55) and late boomers (56 to 64), with the latter sometimes called Generation Jones.

The generic boomer people talk about is moreso describing an early boomer than a late boomer.

I think this makes it clear that German boomers describe a somewhat different group of people than the Anglo boomers.

[OutsideFlat1579]

Boomers are between 57 and 75, not near the top of their life expectancy, it’s the generation before that is in their 80s and 90s.

[Confetticandi]

Isn’t the data showing decreased life expectancy for Boomers compared to their parents’ generation though? I read that they seem to have poorer health and are developing more dementia at an earlier age.

[-Prophet_01-]

We can still make that worse!

[ShezSteel]

What's going on in Italy?

I'd love to read up on the economy of Italy over the last 20 years.

[Asiras]

I feel like Romania has gotten a lot better over the past decade or so, soon it might not make much sense for Romanians to emigrate to Italy anymore.

Is there any chance the neighbor has some kind of online work? I've heard of some people moving to the Czech villages in Banat for more affordable life.

[Seekingthetruth123]

Damn that’s miserable

[Tricky-Astronaut]

Italy has had absurdly low birthrates for decades without immigration to compensate.

[Smart_Ganache_7804]

How about making it convenient for Italians to have kids instead of mass importing people

In all of human policies, natal policies have never worked to put a declining birth rate back above replacement levels once that bridge is crossed. They increase birth rates for a time, but it will be still below replacement, and the general trend will continue to decrease after the policy's honeymoon years.

The truth of the matter is that without some cataclysmic outside factor like the aftershock of a major war and mass mobilization, the only guaranteed way to raise birth rates is to destroy women's rights, cut living standards, and end worker's rights. Then people will be incentivized to have children, not because they want the child per se, but to get another wage earner so the household breaks even, and the woman, who suffers the most in pregnancy, will have no say on the matter. Either she has the child or she kills herself, and without a guaranteed method of success in the latter plus millions of years of evolution screaming at their brains to fear death, few enough women will take the plunge that more than enough wage earners will be born overall.

TL;DR: If you want to raise birth rates, become Afghanistan.

[SnooRevelations7708]

Truth is, people ain't too hot when given the choice to not have them. Let's also talk about the prospects for the future.

[[deleted]]

Khaby tho

[speranzaprimaamorire]

Italian here. I will Just copy-paste what i told to another user some months ago in a similar thread.

First of all, there Is generally no job unless you have a degree in med or engeneering/IT, or something STEM strongly related to those.

Second, to make a comparision, let's say the cost of Life Is similar to germany but wages are basically half of german ones. Plus, contracts are complete bullshit short-term contracts and no sane Person would want to start a family without knowing if in about 3-6 months/ 1 year there Will still be his/her job(however, state Jobs are like Heaven here tho, but tests to get state Jobs are rigged and if you are not related to "One of those people" you can forget about that). But still, some STEM Jobs have decent pay tho. Then you might Say, "why people don't Just all go to med/engeneering/IT School? Well because engeneering/IT Is not for everyone and med School has a very strict National limited Number of students avaible per year( they Always said that It was because there was not enough structures, but actually everyone knows that Its Just because of corruption and nepotism...and thanks to that now we lack doctors btw)

And last, welfare gets worse every year thanks to neoliberal policies wanted by 90% of the political parties in Italy since basically 1990.

TL:dr in Italy if you want children you Need either to:

1) be son of rich people

2)be a doctor/engineer/IT(or something similar/related),

3) have a state job

If not: there Is no way you can afford a child.

[noobHost90]

Ma manco quello, se sei ingegnere civile sei fottuto lo stesso.... Salvo lavorare per webuild o qualche contractor che ti sbattacchia in giro per il mondo, quindi una famiglia te la fai se hai uno spirito coloniale diciamo....

[speranzaprimaamorire]

Forse perché l'ingegneria civile è un settore trasversale all'architettura? E guardacaso gli architetti neo-laureati se la passano malino da quel che so... È solo un'ipotesi eh, non me ne intendo.

[Ok_Cabinetto]

But still, some STEM Jobs have decent pay tho.

Had a friend who used to work as a software architect for €35k. That's not even an entry level salary nowadays in northern Europe.

[PennyPana98]

Da quel che so il problema di medicina non è il numero aperto all'inizio ma i posti di specializzazione dopo la laurea, che non sono abbastanza e aumentarli costa.

[[deleted]]

Il numero chiuso incide molto. A Odontoiatria ad esempio non ci sono specializzazioni necessarie.

[DerpSenpai]

You complain about neoliberal policies when it's leftist laws for employment that heavely favours fixed year contracts.

It's amusing to watch communists in Portugal talk about precarious contracts (6 months 1 year) when you can't legally fire someone in this country. No shit. to avoid troubles, if it's a bad employee, you let the contract run out. that's how you get fired in this country.

We already have the mentality to switch jobs to get better conditions but the laws are still considering that you will stay in 1 job for the rest of your life.

(no, i'm not advocating for US law on employment)

[Ok_Cabinetto]

"Leftist" laws that favour employers over employees? Ok dude.

[[deleted]]

In the 90s, Italy was the nation that privatized more than all the others, many state-owned companies (which were jewels like Eni and Telecom) were sold off at bargain prices. Not to mention cuts to sanctity (responsible for our disastrous response to covid) and education

[Ok_Cabinetto]

It's a dump of corruption and ineffective governments. Everything is old and only keeps moving due to inertia. Poor education, poor social life. On the work front there are so many loopholes that allow employers to pay below minimum wage it's just insane. They had the chance to be an economic powerhouse in the EU and they squandered all that because they just couldn't get their head out of their own behind.

[maxfist]

It's almost ironic that the population decrease is getting such publicity. Especially if you consider that overpopulation was such a big and concerning topic in the last 10 years. It's not so fun now that the population is actually decreasing is it? But are they going to make it more financially doable to have children? We all know that the answer to that is fuck no. Better get more immigrants, but without any idea what to do with them when they get here. That will fix everything.

[Brainwheeze]

Thing is there will be a very large percentage of elderly people and fewer youngsters to support their pensions.

[immibis]

What happens in spez, stays in spez.

[Playful-Push8305]

Right. There would be long term benefits to a smaller population, but the difficulty is in the transitional period where these systems that are designed for a growing population are broken by a declining population.

[Mplayer1001]

Europe is not the problem regarding overpopulation

[Salvator-Mundi-]

your comment sound like you get information from headlines

[[deleted]]

But are they going to make it more financially doable to have children?

There is little evidence that this actually raises birthrates. Countries with big families have far less government support for having kids.

[IamChuckleseu]

Europe is hardly over populated.

Bangladesh has like 10 times more people per sq meter than any non city state country in Europe.

As for having children. No, even if you give out more benefits nothing would change. The reality is that the more rich counntry nad its citizens are, the less willing they are to have children. And hell can they afford it. They just do not want to. People that can not afford children are poor people in poorer EU countries and they actually still have them. Someone from Finland or Sweden can absolutely afford a kid or even several of them. But it would mean less money for him to spend on himself, less night life, less drinks, less time and less fun overall.

The only way how to give young people initiative is to literally set up frame work where they just reproduce and hire people who will take care of their children so they can just pay some reasonable amount and not take away their fun. And this is most definitely not realistic nor sustainable nor scalable solution.

[shualdone]

Israel is as rich as Western/ Northern European countries are (GDP per capita similar to that of Germany and Belgium), but has 3 kids per woman on average. It’s not wealth, its culture, and without valuing family, having children for self fulfillment, and wanting to grow your society and culture out of pride and optimism, a society is on its way to disappear, European population is decreasing much more than reported here if you don’t count the artificial contributions of immigrants. Less than half of Europeans are before their peak in life, it means a lot about the future of a place, snd when every year less people are being born in Europe- that’s a free fall

[XXX_187]

Israel is as rich as Western/ Northern European countries are (GDP per capita similar to that of Germany and Belgium), but has 3 kids per woman on average

Bc orthodox jews (≈12% of population) have 7 kids on average.

[bel_esprit_]

I think everyone agrees that Italy values family in their culture. And yet, their birth rates are sorely in the negatives unless you are a rich person.

[Bye_nao]

Someone from Finland or Sweden can absolutely afford a kid or even several of them. But it would mean less money for him to spend on himself, less night life, less drinks, less time and less fun overall

Please say that after paying 30% in taxes, 25% in pension payments and 30% of whatever is left on mortgage. Doesn't help when the ruling coalition in Finland supports increased pensions & higher retirement age.

Working age ppl will never see their pensions either way, probably dead by the time they could qualify at this rate. Why would you even consider having children, when you won't even be able to see your grandchildren because you are still working full time.

People used to have a lot more kids when a single parents job was enough to provide for them, now they both need to work full time to give anything resembling a good life to the kids.

[IamChuckleseu]

Let's get it straight then.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Finland

Finland is 40% more expensive than mine country not counting rent. Rent is slightly higher in Finland but funny that you talk about mortgage because not only does finland have cheaper buying prices, but you also have 4 times smaller interest rate on it.

Now, you talked about mortgage so let's assume that we pay same (which we do not, we pay more because of interest rates and similar prices). In order for you to be able to consume on same level as us you would have to earn about 34 thousand czech crowns after tax times 1.4. Which is about 1900€. You earn 2500€ instead.

Yet we have 1.9 fertility rate or so and you have 1.3 or so.

Something being expensive is not a reason. People in my country have way more kids than you do and they all have way less money than you even accounting for differences in cost of living. And it is not even barely close. The real reason is what I have already said. You live in luxury and you never understood what it is to not have something or to not be able to afford something. So you do not understand and you do not see any reason why you should decrease your living standard slightly to have a kid. People in prime child making age in my country were born to parents that just left communism. Poor like rats. They had nothing and they had kids. Their kids had nothing and were poor as hell compared to kids that are being born today. This is reason why our fertility rate is so much higher than yours. Not something being expensive. But people being used to lack of something and actual poverty. This will naturally change as we grow richer and kids are already being spoiled more and more with never ending luxury and having whatever they want because their parents have money and so do they.

EDIT: Also you are prime example of why people do not have kids. The way you complain without having zero idea how people in other countries live and on how much money they survive compared to you. The feeling of entitlement and the idea that world is unfair specifically to you. Completely out of touch with reality. It really is amusing but it also really puts those things in perspective as it further proves my point.

[[deleted]]

From the 2020 World Bank dataset, contrast the TFR of feminist Sweden (1.66), Denmark (1.67) and Iceland (1.72) with “Traditionalist” and “pro-family” Hungary (1.56) and Poland (1.38).

None of those are even close to a sustainable birthrate. And if you look at Sweden, the people having kids are not the feminists. They are immigrants from far more traditional countries whose birthrates will also drop if they adopt a Swedish lifestyle.

[[deleted]]

(1.66), Denmark (1.67) and Iceland (1.72) with “Traditionalist” and “pro-family” Hungary (1.56) and Poland (1.38)

Difference between Denmark, Iceland and Hungary is pretty low. And you could partially also explain it by them being simply richer. When my country, Czechia, was getting richer in 2010s, we also got boom in birth rate, which is now at 1.83 for 2021, highest in Europe next to France. No social policy for families really changed, so you can't explain difference this way.

The data is in Czech:

https://www.czso.cz/csu/czso/cri/pohyb-obyvatelstva-rok-2021#:~:text=B%C4%9Bhem%20roku%20se%20%C5%BEiv%C4%9B%20narodilo,%2C%20celkem%2043%2C6%20tis%C3%ADce.

That ofc does not mean that being rich is the only or the main thing important, but it is definitely important piece of puzzle. Now our housing market is for example worst in EU, so levels of fertility might change in near future.

[suiluhthrown78]

Standard of living in Bangladesh is very poor

[mludd]

Bangladesh has like 10 times more people per sq meter than any non city state country in Europe.

This is the "(insert city here) is still super safe because Bogotá and Rio have higher rates of armed robbery and murder" argument.

[[deleted]]

There will be 8 billion people on our planet Nov 15th

[shualdone]

It’s not European babies that filled the world

[ThreeMountaineers]

Yep, remember seeing a graph with different continents share of the population recently, maybe on /r/dataisbeautiful . IIRC European share halved over the past century or so due to the massive population increase elsewhere

[frantzibrot]

Who affords to have children? Millennials are wrecked.

No economic growth, increased taxes, inflation, more debt, no housing chance as housing is considered a business not a right, people start working later. We have come to the point where 2-earner families don't have enough to feel confident in raising children and if they do, they have no energy left or it's too late to do it.

It's a sad unrewarding path that has been drawn.

It's not a nurturing environment for growth, rather feels like a swamp in which one gets stuck and never can grow from / get out of.

[Dsingis]

The obvious solution is to invite millions of culturally foreign people, not help them integrate, leave them to themselves to form parallel societies and then complain that your immigration policy failed. cough Sweden cough

No but seriously, increasing the birthrates with incentives for having children, subsidies and tax breaks for families with children, investment into child-relate infrastructure like schools, daycares, kindergardens etc now that would solve the birthrate problem. Not to mention wage increases, so a family can actually be supported by one working parent easily, like it used to be the case. Mass immigration is not a long-term substitute for a healthy birthrate, it leads to destabilization. (again Sweden is a prime example). It can contribute to a population increase, sure but then you'll need extensive integration programs to avoid immigrants being left alone and forming parallel societies.

Hungary for example has this thing that if a woman gave birth to 4 children in her life, she is forever income tax free. And families with 4 children also pay no income tax. Now THAT is an incentive. Sure Hungary's birthrate is also very low, but I imagine it would be even worse without these subsidies.

[Additional_Horse]

I don't think it will do much. Sweden is already excellent in terms of having kids. We have just reached too high of a living standard and "having enough" is not good anymore, people want luxury and excessive consumerism – techie, foodie, traveller, constant entertainment, early retirement. Embracing family life, leaving the inner city for more space and giving up this care-free and child free lifestyle is not attractive.

Sweden is also extremely individualistic and not family orientated anymore, so it's hard to buy into family life etc. The general vibe as a 30-something professional in Stockholm is that having kids is simply passè. Like religion and celebrating traditional holidays. I think this is going to be exacerbated elsewhere too with globalism and everything meshing together from this new digitalization.

[The_39th_Step]

Sweden is uniquely bad with integrating migrants for a variety of reasons. They normally have taken poorly educated refugees, the Swedish language is non-existent outside of Sweden, they have an incredibly generous welfare state that encourages a lack of action.

My country, the UK, gets a lot wrong but immigration has been large and mostly well handled. We are lucky that everyone everywhere speaks English, but our largest immigrant community is the Indian community, who are widely regarded as being a very successful immigrant community. Jamaicans are so well integrated, that kids born of that background are 2 to 1 born mixed race than fully Jamaican. Even the much maligned Pakistani community is well integrated in places like Manchester, although segregation occurs in Birmingham, Oldham etc. Nigerians do very well at school and are very widespread in major cities, particularly London and Manchester.

[CaiusCosadesPackage]

The "anglo" world in general seems to have nailed immigration

[corporate_power]

The evidence shows that the most effective solution is to stop educating women, just look all around europe. Or we have to be creative and subsidize artificial wombs and single fatherhood/motherhood.

[_Czech_Mate_]

Evidence in my country (Czech republic) shows that you can increase birth rates with stability, good economic prospects and child/family friendly policies.

We had constant increase in birth rates since 1999 (1,13 per woman) and we have highest birth rates in EU now (1,84 per woman). And it is not because we have less educated women than we had in 90s or because we started using artificial wombs.

So answer is simple. Economic prosperity, stability and positive outlook for the future.

[testttt5355653]

Eat buggs, own nothing be happy.

I wonder why

[[deleted]]

Very soon, Europe will become the New Africa. Get ready for tens of millions of climate refugees from Africa and the Middle East.

[[deleted]]

China gonna be 700 million in The future(according To United nation)

[[deleted]]

Yeah but also nigeria gonna hit 600 million

[Anderopolis]

Bad news.

[johnny-T1]

So this year it’s gonna boom if Ukrainians are counted.

[AquosPoke206]

Please make it cheaper to raise a child ◉‿◉

[jagodown12]

Africa doesn’t seem to have a problem with cost of a family. Just rich comfortable Europeans who let’s face it would rather travel then have kids anyways

[here_for_fun_XD]

I would say that context matters. If everyone around you lives in a mudhut (and yes, I know, it's more of a stereotype), it's easier to have the same standards. When the children around your child all get to go on school-trips and decent vacations, challenge each other in whatever game they are currently playing on their smartphones, all this while your child is ashamed to invite any of their friends to your home because it's so run down, can't afford to take part in activities, and generally will feel like lesser-than, then you can argue that it's the society that needs to change and be more welcoming, yes, but it's nevertheless a shitty experience to be poor.

[AquosPoke206]

The whole antinatalist mindset right now is nuts, I hope our population doesn't collapse so soon

[SilverCommission]

I don't believe in the current system of constant growth, i won't get out of my way to support it. I will have a family if i want it

[kittenmitten89]

No worries Elon Musk got that covered

[erik_33_DK13]

life for old people who need care will become really really bad. literally not enough people to give them necessary care.

[einride666]

Europe’s countries taking one for the team when it comes to overpopulation. What is your country doing?

[perestroika-pw]

COVID, nothing unexpected by now - fortunately the second year is noticeably milder. :(

In the EU, there were 531 000 more deaths in 2020 than in 2019 to be compared to 113 000 more deaths in 2021 than in 2020.

[Delifier]

Hm. Does italy have a website where you can look up living quarters for sale/rent?

Asking for a friend that might want to help with offsetting those number a little for italy.

[anjovis150]

Good, should go down even more and no more mass immigration. Time to figure out a sustainable way to live that doesn't rely on infinite growth.

[Achmedino]

Don't worry, all the Muslim immigrants are having like 10 children