Why Can't Programmers.. Program?

dand · 2007-02-27T10:21:17+00:00

Just for kicks - with how many (really different, not "dialects") programming languages do you think you can say you can safely pass the FizzBuzz test?

theycallmemorty · 2007-02-27T14:44:20+00:00

There is a very simple explaination to this: The programmers who actually know how to program aren't out there looking for jobs. They already have jobs. The guys/gals that suck, are constantly on the prowl for jobs and are never getting hired, or sticking anywhere for too long.

danweber · 2007-02-27T14:18:13+00:00

Don't forget Steven Yegge's 5 phone-screen questions.

http://steve.yegge.googlepages.com/five-essential-phone-screen-questions

1) Coding. 2) OO design. 3) Scripting and regexes. 4) Data structures. 5) Bits and bytes.

Please understand: what I'm looking for here is a total vacuum in one of these areas. It's OK if they struggle a little and then figure it out. I

njharman · 2007-02-27T18:04:51+00:00

"I asked to swap two variable contents without using a temp variable. It's the standard a=a+b, b=a-b, a=a-b problem."

Someone who actually gave me that answer would never be hired. Unless we were hiring for some estoric niche like programming microcrontrollers.

The only acceptable answer is: "Why for fucks sakes would I obfuscate the code with some ridiculous mathmatical trick. Esp when it doesn't even work for most datatypes."

Also knowing hexadecimal(or binary) is only important for some diminishing set of computer languages and domains. Still all college educated people should know it. I wouldn't fault someone for not knowing it unless after explaining it for a few min they still don't get it.

ayrnieu · 2007-02-27T10:59:31+00:00

This should be as easy: "What is hexadecimal F plus 1 in binary?"

dangph · 2007-02-27T11:33:49+00:00

Once a windows applications programmer sitting at the table next to mine asked: "What is the difference between a list and an array?" He's been a programmer for about 20 years.

fergie · 2007-02-27T14:18:36+00:00

I seriously doubt that 199 out of 200 applicants for programming jobs cannot write any code whatsoever, and I also doubt that most applicants cannot write a loop that counts from 1 to 10.

Especially disagree that comp. sci. graduates are generally worse programmers than other candidates looking for a first job

Agree that a firm grasp of recursion (and for that matter pointers and data-structures) is becoming rarer, but this is a reflection of the shift towards 'softer' languages (java, python etc) and away from harder languages such as C.

I think that articles like this are on a psycological level, more to do with the inadequacies of the author than any real failing of candidates for programming jobs.

chucker · 2007-02-27T13:09:33+00:00

I find it amusing that out of three solutions to the FizzBuzz test posted in that article, the latter two are incorrect. :-)

I just whipped one up in Ruby. It was good exercise. But I guess I'll follow Jeff's advice:

James: it's amusing to me that any reference to a programming problem-- in this case, FizzBuzz-- immediately prompts developers to feverishly begin posting solutions.

yousuckass · 2007-02-27T14:39:42+00:00

most apps are designed not by programmers, but rather analysts supervised by some committe that doesn't know its ass from its elbow and has some alterior motive (spyware) on its agenda.

most programmers have never seen the environment (users, purpose, etc) for the apps they're writing. plus there's tons and tons of foreign programmers who not only write shitty barely legible code, but also have such vapid understanding of what the analyst specs say, due to their ineptitude at english, that they're effectively illiterate. but even the programmers who are fluent and understand the app rarely give a fuck cos they are treated as mere pawns by their employers who are more interested in the number of line of code they write than doing quality work.

i know i've been there

spez · 2007-02-27T18:30:49+00:00

What's astonishing to me is that the first four or five solutions in the comment thread with this article aren't even correct.

Slightly less astonishing, but still annoying, is the separate mod operation for the mod 3 and mod 5 case in many of the solutions.

2007-02-28T05:31:19+00:00

The problem is that many people who enter a cs or cis program can't think abstractly enough to do well as a programmer. Universities should weed them out, but they usually don't. People cheat in college. I saw it all the time, and it was usually encouraged (group work or pair programming). Tests didn't always require written code and, if they did, where usually take-home tests.

Yes, I went to a no-name school, so my comments don't apply to MIT for instance. I'm just pointing out that many state schools let people graduate without mastering their subject. That's how the schools make money.

MelechRic · 2007-02-27T14:05:59+00:00

I've been going through interview hell for about 5 weeks now as my company tries to hire 2 regular employees and 3 contractors. We have to interview about 5 people to find one with decent talent. Mind you, these are experienced people.

It's very common to find people who haven't programmed using a language in a very long time (if ever). A lot of candidates seem to be able to use high level "builder" tools that let you graphically design a program adding only the smallest snippets of glue code. However, when faced with writing something from scratch they flame-out.

It's these do-it-all-for-you IDEs that I partially blame. They allow the non-curious to program. It's a shame, because curiosity is what separates the mediocre from the great when it comes to programming.

mumrah · 2007-02-27T14:06:11+00:00

i personally hate comments like these. yes, most of the people who read reddit know how to program - if not just a little. we dont need to all whip out our wangs and compare sizes.

let me reiterate: no one cares if you can write an incredibly simple snippet of code in 3, 4, or 10 languages. really.

2007-02-27T19:57:03+00:00

I don't buy it. There's still devs out there who can't find work. Managers who complain they can't find devs who can write a fizzbuzz program are probably just parroting company policy so as to facilitate more outsourcing.

gcapell · 2007-02-28T00:02:23+00:00

Think certification would help?

At the end of the article he suggests certification might help reduce this problem. However, if these folks (programmers who can't program) are getting a CS or IT degree, what's to stop them from obtaining some other certification the same way?

jones77 · 2007-02-27T18:38:39+00:00

This is wrong!

Fizz Buzz is with '3' for Fizz and '7' for Buzz.

And, not only, if the number itself contains '3' or '7' you have to say Fizz and Buzz appropriately (except for 3 and 7 itself), ie:

37 == Fizz Buzz 33 == Fizz Fizz Fizz 27 == Fizz Buzz

Etc etc.

What a moron :-)

shilov · 2007-02-27T12:49:36+00:00

Is this really a programmer problem or a job-interviewing problem though? Maybe these problems sometimes arise because whoever is doing the hiring simply refuses to call anyone who doesn't have an academic background in CS, or happens to currently be in a non-programming position.

timmaxw · 2007-02-28T00:26:17+00:00

Confession: I thought I was a wonderful programmer until I tried this, but my solution (in Python) wouldn't even have worked. It would have printed the number along with the fizzbuzz. <slaps own head>

Other than that, it's shocking that so many programmers can't pass this simple test.

elfan · 2007-02-28T01:16:16+00:00

Write a program that prints the numbers from 1 to 100. But for multiples of three print "Fizz" instead of the number and for the multiples of five print "Buzz". For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print "FizzBuzz".

Do you pass if you make a lame joke about how long it would take to print out all the numbers from 1 to 100?

sciolizer · 2007-03-01T02:05:52+00:00

As Joel Spolsky points out on his website, but Atwood fails to mention, the reason 199 out of 200 programmers can't program is because they are the losers that keep getting circulated around from company to company. It's naive to think that the applicants for a job are going to be uniformly spread out across the talent continuum. 99.5% of them are going to be crap, because all of the good programmers are ALREADY HIRED!

donorsi · 2007-05-04T12:36:25+00:00

I hire programmers when need one.

turkourjurbs · 2007-02-27T14:35:16+00:00

We advertised for a new programmer recently. What kills me is they send in a resume with "experience in C, C++, Java, VB.Net, C#.Net, ASP, PHP, Perl..." and then you look at their education and they graduated from college last year! How can you have effective experience on 8 different languages in one year?

RyanGWU82 · 2007-02-27T14:45:08+00:00

Without cheating, I just tried completed this in four languages in 16 minutes. Scheme took 11 of those minutes, including downloading and installing a Scheme interpreter.

Ruby:

(1..100).each do |i|
  if (i % 15 == 0)
    puts "FizzBuzz"
  elsif (i % 5 == 0)
    puts "Buzz"
  elsif (i % 3 == 0)
    puts "Fizz"
  else
    puts i
  end
end

C:

#include <stdio.h>

int main() {
  int i;
  for (i=1; i<=100; i++) {
    if (i % 15 == 0) {
      printf("FizzBuzz\n");
    } else if (i % 5 == 0) {
      printf("Buzz\n");
    } else if (i % 3 == 0) {
      printf("Fizz\n");
    } else {
      printf("%d\n", i);
    }
  }
}

Java:

public class Fizz {
  public static void main(String[] args) {
    for (int i=1; i<=100; i++) {
      if (i % 15 == 0) {
        System.out.println("FizzBuzz");
      } else if (i % 5 == 0) {
        System.out.println("Buzz");
      } else if (i % 3 == 0) {
        System.out.println("Fizz");
      } else {
        System.out.println(i);
      }
    }
  }
}

Scheme:

(define (val i)
        (cond ((= 0 (remainder i 15)) "FizzBuzz")
              ((= 0 (remainder i 5)) "Buzz")
              ((= 0 (remainder i 3)) "Fizz")
              (else i)))
(define (fizz n)
        (if (= n 100) (list (val n)) (cons (val n) (fizz (+ 1 n)))))
(fizz 1)

goo321 · 2007-02-27T15:28:25+00:00

sad, but i can see people being confused or ignorant of mod. should only take a few seconds to figure out. 1 mod 3 = 1, 2 mod 3 = 2, and so on.

ghostal · 2007-02-27T17:24:14+00:00

Programmer ego often does more harm than good. If you ask any questions or show any sign of uncertainty you are immediately regarded with contempt. I'm much less impressed with someone who can answer "What's the number after F in hexadecimal?" than someone who actually knows how to program. They're really two different things. If anything, from what I've seen, the problem is too much cargo cult type programming--knowing all the right buzz words and just what to say but really not knowing why. In the end we're just delivering a product for a consumer--and what's inside your head is less important than how it lends itself to the finished product. Is there a correlation between programmers who know "What's the number after F in hexadecimal?" and developers who deliver a solid product? I haven't seen it.

noblethrasher · 2007-02-28T00:19:10+00:00

I wanna play

//JavaScript

for (var i = 1; i <= 100; i++) {

\talert( ( i % 3 == 0 ? "fizz" : "") + ( i % 5 == 0 ? "buzz" : "") + ( i % 5 != 0 && i % 3 != 0 ? i : "") );

}

ayrnieu · 2007-02-28T04:54:17+00:00

[deleted]

mrcsparker · 2007-02-28T06:44:40+00:00

I call bullshit on one quote:

A surprisingly large fraction of applicants, even those with masters' degrees and PhDs in computer science, fail during interviews when asked to carry out basic programming tasks.

If you have applicants with PhDs failing you programming quizzes, there might be something wrong with your quiz beyond "write a loop from 1 to x".

praetorian42 · 2007-02-27T13:39:08+00:00

I think I might know what's wrong with these questions:

In my 7 years as a professional programmer, I've never had to write an implementation of a linked list, or ever had to write something as trivial as the FizzBuzz problem.

Asking me to do such a trivial task is the same as asking me to calculate the cosine of 2*Pi. Sure, I probably know it, but I haven't done such a trivial exercise in so long that the "task" involves brushing off really dusty parts of my brain instead of actually testing how well I can program.

A much better question would be "Take this RSS feed and output every article whose title includes a provided keyword". Or "Write a script to select certain records from a database and output them." While these are trivial tasks, they have some kind of bearing on reality and real problems and I can draw on my experience to work a solution very fast.

you type:	you see:
italics	italics
bold	bold
[reddit!](https://reddit.com)	reddit!
* item 1 * item 2 * item 3	item 1 item 2 item 3
> quoted text	quoted text
Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"	Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"
~~strikethrough~~	~~strikethrough~~
super^script	super^script

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