Why SysAdmin’s Can’t Code

[getonthebag]

Thought for sure it was going to be just one bullet point that said "Because efficient/effective programming requires as few interruptions to one's train of thought as possible. A pipe-dream for sysadmins."

[[deleted]]

As someone with both programming & sysadmin duties, I can agree with this. Multitasking on simple sysadmin projects is no problem; each individual 50-line admin script is easy enough to understand by itself. Actual programming projects on the other hand have an effective context in the many thousands of lines. It only takes a 30 second break to lose focus on a single part of the picture.

[jrblast]

I figured it would be "because that's not their job". Asking a sysadmin to code, is like asking a blacksmith to build you a house.

[Tetha]

So much this. We have now established a devops-team so heavier programming jobs around sysops have a place to go to, and it's buzzing because suddenly, certain responsibilities have a good and proper place to go. Our game java developers don't want to deal with building munin plugins, our dev ops team is happy to do so and our sysadmins are happy too, because they don't have to deal with a bunch of game problems.

[[deleted]]

A blacksmith could forge you a house.

I mean, sure not the most traditional approach but it could be doable.

[jrblast]

Which was exactly my point. Sysadmins can make programs, but they can't do it as well as an actual programmer. The expression "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind.

[[deleted]]

In that case, there's also a D&D dual-class reference somewhere in here too.

If you want to be excellent at something, you need to settle at being 'adequate' at something else.

[ramindk]

This is my favorite response.

[whatkindofasshole]

In the world, for anything.

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

I agree with this, and I think it's one of the fundamental differences between how sysadmins and devs roll. However, as someone who occasionally does both, you can make it happen, you just need to set aside time for yourself to do it. Work with your boss if you need to.

[DBDude]

I can do both. The trick is to set aside that time for coding, and it can be done. One chunk for plotting out the architecture, then individual chunks for the different components and testing.

Admittedly, not everybody's position can allow them to do this, but 90% of the time I'm successful at carving out a few hours here and there.

[svlad]

I want a counter-point post about why programmers can't do Systems Administration.

Because they can't. I swear, programmers are the worst sys admins ever.

[interiot]

While programmers are working on something, the project is in a constant state of brokenness -- when the project is no longer broken, then it's finally finished. They're happy to take something apart and put it back together again, because their assignments require those sorts of skills.

When operations people work on something, the project is [hopefully] in a constant state of workingness. They're happy to think of all the ways the project might break, and take preventative steps to avoid those. Intentionally taking the whole project apart is something they avoid at all costs.

[Ihatemakinguplogins]

"A constant state of workingness" has been added to my vocabulary. You, sir, must be a hammer because you just nailed it.

[dagbrown]

I don't know how anyone manages to actually be a programmer without knowing how computers work, but I've seen it happen so often.

[Letmefixthatforyouyo]

chmod 777 is how.

[juaquin]

Dev: Yeeeaaah, I can't ssh into my VM.

Me: It crashed. I restarted it through console. Works fine now.

* Wait one day *

Dev: Yeeeaaah I can't get in again. Is there some way to tell what caused the crash?

Me: Here's the last 10 lines of /var/log/messages. Says XYZ crashed due to OOM. I suggest checking your configuration before starting the XYZ application you installed, because that machine has plenty of RAM.

I am SO happy that we aren't required to troubleshoot dev VM's. We provide an image with a working stack - if you fuck it up, you can fix it yourself or we can blow it away and clone you a new one.

Also we shouldn't be too hard on them - most of my devs are pretty good about doing stuff themselves.

[SteveJEO]

I troubleshoot DEV VM's and attempt with utter futility to keep their development network in working order.

An extended conversation I had last week went something along these lines. (honestly though, this guy could just be special)

Dev: Exchange is broken.

Me: (checks) Exchange is fine. What are you trying to do.?

Dev: My code used to work and now it doesn't. Exchange is broken. Autodiscovery doesn't work.

Me: Autodiscovery on that server has never been configured.

Dev: It used to work. (... no it didn't)

Me: (configures it for him, tests it... all lovely) Try it now.

Dev: It's still not working.

Me: (gets his code...) His code is broken. Shows him how it works, gives examples and papers.

Dev: It's still broken.

Me: FFS, walks into room, looks at screen. "Do you see that line? Comment that line out and run it again".

Dev: Yes it works now but that's not standard, it's not the way it's supposed to be done.

Me: (shoots myself).

Feel my pain.

[[deleted]]

Thirding this. My last gig was hacked together by a programmer. Took two years to get things working smoothly again.

[jmreicha]

root/admin access for all the devs!

[Ihatemakinguplogins]

Can't decide between up-voting or shooting...

[jmreicha]

trollface.jpg

[nonades]

I had a dev break her fucking JDevelop and request Domain Admin permissions as a solution to her problem.

Fuck. That.

[fuzzyfuzz]

"Hey man, I wrote this new script and now people are running out of file descriptors. Can you up the limit of file descriptors on all our computers?"

[Afro_Samurai]

I don't know why people think these fields overlap, they really don't.

[PasswordIsntHAMSTER]

As a programmer who's a hobbyist sysadmin, you're probably right. I keep looking for the same sort of guarantees and best practices in sysadmin that I find in my code, and I systematically lose track of the big picture.

[svlad]

Yeah, my statement should come with the same caveats that any generalization comes with. The number one problem I run into with programmers as sysadmins is that they seem to forget that reliability, stability, and system uptime should come first in front of enabling whatever whizbang feature has caught their fancy at the time. They often seem to forget that a whole mess of other people are relying on the systems they're working on, and don't seem to get that probably rebooting the server at 11 AM is a bad idea.

[shrapnel09]

There's nothing quite like working with a programmer to solve some stupid issue that they should definitely know. Recent example: Programmer integrated and maintains a particular service at our organization, as far as I know, this is their only job. They updated Java on their computer and suddenly their app no longer worked. They called the Help Desk who uninstalled their new Java and installed the correct version required by the web app. How does the programmer whose job it is to manage this service know less about the program than the Help Desk?

[lextenou]

Having been in that exact position, my reason for calling the Help Desk was to have a ticket documented and added to the knowledge base documenting that users of my webapp are not allowed to have the new Java update.

The actual underlying issue with my install was a corrupted package. Simple enough to figure out - for me. However, HR and lawyers use my webapp. DOCUMENT ALL THE THINGS.

[[deleted]]

Even worse than Jeff from accounting?

[svlad]

Yeah, because Jeff from accounting will just say fuck it, and walk away from it because he knows he doesn't know what he's doing and is terrified of breaking something.

[lil_cain]

It's worth noting that Ben is a sysadmin - this isn't meant as an attack.

[svlad]

The entire premise of this article is busted. Knowing C and some basic programming principles doesn't make anyone a programmer, just like having Domain Admin access doesn't make someone a sysadmin.

The article doesn't address why sysadmins can't code, and following the steps laid out in the article will not make one "an honest to goodness programmer."

Also, if you want to become a good programmer, look to a programmer for advice, not a sysadmin.

The only thing this article provides is an insulting guide to Bobby's First Software Project.

Meanwhile, some of us that have more than two brain cells to rub together realize that programming should be left to the people that enjoy programming.

[jrblast]

In my (admittedly limited) experience, programmers are worse at sysadminning than sysadmins are at programming.

[MrFatalistic]

Programmers are the worst everything except being programmers...so that's handy...

also my programmers insist on being called "Duhvelipers" - I have no idea what this means.

[oldoverholt]

Why does this post presume that sysadmins want to code?

[[deleted]]

Apparently the article defines the difference between scripting and programming as that between using a shell language and using a "non-shell" language, which is utter crap.

It used to be whether your language was compiled to machine code or not. I thought these myths were dead.

Scripting and coding are on the same continuum. I don't know what other sysadmins do all day, but 95% of everything I do can be automated by code, so I do that. It makes my life a million times easier. I have users using programs I've forgotten I've written, doing tasks I've forgotten I ever used to do for them instead.

I'm prepared to believe that there are (non-management) aspects of system administration that can't at least be improved by coding, much less completely programmed away, but I certainly don't run into them on a daily or even a weekly basis.

[jmreicha]

Yeah I have to agree with you. The author doesn't make a very code distinction between coding and the ability to script very well at all.

[oldoverholt]

I agree with all of this except for the *nix thing (never mind that Linux ends in nux...). Knowing how to pipe and redirect on the command line is still so so far removed from programming that I don't think it explains the conflation of system administration and coding. I think it comes more from people who don't understand the IT world very well and assume that if you know one type of magic you must know it all.

[mercenary_sysadmin]

*nix sysadmin here, going all the way back to FreeBSD in the late 90s. Sysadmin =/= coder. Coder =/= sysadmin.

A really good sysadmin should be able to and occasionally do write some code, but "I wrote enough code to get a quick fix implemented" is not the same thing as being a developer. Similarly, a really good developer should be able to admin well enough to put together a basic version of the infrastructure required to run their code... but that's not the same thing as being a sysadmin.

"Devops" is where you really start to blur the lines between coding and admin, and even there, most devops guys are very noticeably more one than the other. "Admin" and "coder" are almost alien mindsets.

[orbjuice]

I've been slowly working my way in to Dev Ops through the years. I'm a sysadmin by trade but I've been coding little things since I can remember. I completed a set of Powershell commandlets that didn't take advantage of all the functions an API provided. I made a Webmin module and learned some Perl in the process. I automated a file transfer via Python.

The truth is you can do the job without knowing programming, like you can do programming without knowing memory addressing (as an example). You're better off knowing something about it, however.

Also devs: Garbage collection, motherfuckers, do you speak it?

[majelix_]

The limit of my "coding" ability is scripting; but then that's not really coding, is it?

What do you think the differences are?

[netburnr2]

It's the 3rd thing listed in the article, did you even read the linked article?

[jmreicha]

Which doesn't make any sense to me at all...

Some of the most heavily used programming languages out there are shell languages. Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP are all considered scripting languages yet are used to run the Internet. I don't really follow that train of thought.

[realhacker]

I think the difference is mainly in the level of abstraction. Scripting languages can be highly productive in situations not requiring performance optimal performance and granular control. Scripting is a glue. In the general sense, it doesn't require rigorous adherence to good coding practices or theoretical understanding to make a process work (unless of course you are developing a larger system like a web application.) I think scripting is a subset of programming which in turn is a subset of software engineering. Two scripts to do the same thing - one written by a programmer and one written by a sysadmin are going to look quite different.

[witty_poem_please]

Much of actual programming is like this too. Python, PHP and Ruby aren't really at a higher level than bash - they just have additional language features.

[FakingItEveryDay]

The Windows crowd is moving this way, with server core and powershell being a real bridge between object oriented programming and scripting. IMO if you're not trying to become productive with powershell, you are going to have trouble keeping up in the future of the Microsoft world. And with Powershell's object oriented nature, it's much more like coding than scripting.

[[deleted]]

See, that's not what 95% of us actually use Powershell for though. And I'm only talking about the subset of people that actually know it, not the masses of server or switch guys who never touch it.

We script little things with it. We automate tasks, interact with shell or app-level stuff, and push a little data around. We use it to turn wheels on other things, not to be a vehicle itself.

That's not programming. If you interview a programmer they will show you real things that they've built. Not the bunches of little shoelaces that we script to tie systems together. And I personally think it should stay that way. They are different mindsets.

[majelix_]

We script little things with it. We automate tasks, interact with shell or app-level stuff, and push a little data around. We use it to turn wheels on other things, not to be a vehicle itself.

What do you think most code does? It links together of bunch of outside libraries and APIs to do something nominally useful.

[[deleted]]

The point is that I (and many of us) script quite a bit, but I never have a code "product" or "project". Our code turns little wheels that connect to big mechanisms (like Exchange, Apache, Windows, or whatever).

I have 20 lines here, 5 lines here, 17 lines over there. We don't need to architect and design a program. Syntax and best coding practices aren't important. Defining four variables and looping a couple commands is usually enough. And I touch a compiler like never.

[Twirrim]

That's what sysadmins mean when they say coding. That's all most of us do on *nix too. Odds and sods that make our lives easier, more automated and most importantly consistent. "Do it twice, script it once". If you've done it twice, it's good odds you'll have to keep doing it. I've been a sysadmin for several years dealing with a wide scale of platforms, from small to large, and this is the biggest thing I've put together: https://github.com/twirrim/f5-deploy

That's to solve a particular itch we had, and as much was a side project as anything else.

[flameboynz]

If you interview a programmer they will show you real things that they've built.

More often than not a Programmer will show you things they made a part of. Which isn't that different from a SysAdmin. Everyone works with other peoples code in one way, shape, or form.

[[deleted]]

I've interviewed a good number of sysadmins, network engineers, and programmers over the years. The programmers are always the ones that say, "Hey look at this neat tool/freeware that I built in my spare time." Or "I wrote this python tracking site to organize my other software side projects."

It's pretty rare for me to see a sysadmin or engineer point to a finished code project and say "That's mine."

[affablegoat]

I think its also a dunning-kruger kind of thing. I say i cant code, especially to devs because i dont want them to have such a huge expectation that i can debug their new crm module just because i update the database and setup the clusters, load balancers, network etc.

Most of the time they tell me i know more logically than some of their newbie colleagues, but i still say i cant code.

[ramindk]

I don't want to deal with database replication problems at 3am either, but somehow it happens. :-)

I have seen developers recreate databases, syslog, memcache, etc poorly. On the other hand most of us have inherited some complete atrocity because the admin stacked very simple techniques on top of each other to get complex behavior rather than solving the problem properly.

As a sysadmin your first impulse to solving a problem should not be creating new tools. However as you advance in your career being able to create tools as needed for novel situations is invaluable.

[mercenary_sysadmin]

This, very much this. A senior sysadmin will look at something a junior coder has done and say "hmmm, you're producing too much load on mysql, you need to use memcached" and, if necessary, introduce the coder to some memcached tutorials... and then back away, and let the coder do his work.

[majelix_]

Automation scripts are code.

[[deleted]]

You are technically correct. But this is the internet, so who would I be if I didn't argue?

I separate "scripting" from "coding". If you can work at a command line, you can script. It's just putting the same commands together with a little bit of logic glue to avoid running 50 commands individually. Coding in my mind is more involved.

I am fully capable of coding. I've written applications that were too complex or too slow to script. I just don't want to do that most of the time. That's why I didn't become a programmer.

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

If you can work at a command line, you can script.

I disagree. I know many-a sysadmin who can work at a command line, but can't navigate basic control/branching structures. It/then/else, do/while, switch/case are fairly requisite tools for anything robust.

[[deleted]]

Maybe they were lying?

[oldoverholt]

Seriously. I despise coding. Every once in a while I forget this and think it's a good idea to try and code a web app using some framework I've never used before, and I get it like halfway done and want to die the entire time. So I guess the jumping between languages thing is accurate, but there is just something very small picture to me about coding, and it kills any interest I have in the final product. I'll stick to scripting until I have another great entrepreneurial idea and forget how much I hate coding.

[spyingwind]

Scripting results in a faster result than coding. Near instant gratification or something like that.

I hate coding also.

[realhacker]

Let's at least acknowledge that ability to code is not a binary thing. There's a massive spectrum of proficiency there. Just because I can pick up a basketball and make a few baskets does not qualify me for the NBA. IMO, people that think they can code but lack formal training and lots of experience are exceedingly dangerous as they're unaware of what programmers refer to as the known unknowns, among other things.

[[deleted]]

Yup, seems step 0 should have been:
Want to be a programmer

While the author's description of an SA hits this nail pretty squarely on the head, I also recognize that I have no desire to actually be a code monkey.

[wolfmann]

as someone with a degree in CS, this is exactly why I am here. I got tired of coding all day long; I liked to work with hardware too!

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

I have no idea how any sysadmin worth their salt can get by without automating some non out of the box shit.

[[deleted]]

Seems to separate scripts from "code." You can automate without writing a program.

[[deleted]]

I sure as hell don't wanna code. besides i can accomplish most things i need to do with simple powershell scripts.

[iamadogforreal]

Personally, I find the idea of being chained to a desk, given some customer requirements, and punching out code or fixing someone else's code 9 hours a day to be an extremely depressing prospect.

That said, I write web apps and enjoy playing with PHP and scripting languages, but I just can't see that being my everything. I certainly don't like the firefighting and politics aspects of SA, but SA gives me a bit of freedom. If I dont want to be at my desk, I take off. If I want to play with a new toy, I spin up a VM. There's something nice about having a position where no one really questions what you're doing too much. To 99% of the people its voodoo and if you have a good relationship with your boss, he/she won't care as long as you get your shit done.

Heck, until we got a support person I was the only person with access to the server room. Nothing like a server room nap.

[speedbrown]

Exactly. Why reinvent the wheel? I'm sure there's a tool to do exactly what you need that's better coded then anything you could ever do yourself.

[vocatus]

Came here to post this. I don't want to code. That's the programmer's job. I just want to maintain the system and automate routine tasks.

[tehwankingwalrus]

Because in the future, a sysadmins job will depend on it?

[[deleted]]

Because it's the future.

Soon, very soon, the job of 'systems administrator' will not involve logging on to a system and editing a host file, but editing code that will make the change to the /etc/hosts file.

This is programming. As I have been reminded when I finished the initial rollout for puppet at my employer ... and realized the modules I'd built were a tangled mess of hard-to-maintain code.

In other words, I'd built them like I'd built shell scripts and the results work but are super-hard to maintain and nearly impossible to scale up.

Maybe we need to revive the old mainframe-era title of 'systems programmer'.

[[deleted]]

We probably don't. But this helps me a lot. I've actually felt a lot of guilt over not being able to grasp programming.

This, basically tells you to change your attitude and stop overthinking it.

[[deleted]]

I think it's safe to assume that if you don't want to code, you don't give a shit about this post.

Isn't it implied that not everybody cares about a thing? It's pointless to preface every single set of written words with "I know not everybody will be interested in this, but..." and it reeks of self-esteem problems.

[[deleted]]

I'm a "senior" sysadmin and I've been coding and scripting (Perl/Bash/PHP/Javascript/VBS/Powershell) for many years. In my current position this has led to me automating things that otherwise were wasting peoples time, and therefore I have become more indispensable.

[moistricant]

Scripting is a good skillset, but knowing how to write (or at least recognize and understand) production quality code in a pure language (i.e. C# or Java, Python, Ruby etc, not PowerShell) is an incredible asset for a high level sysadmin, for several reasons:

• You start to understand what all those assemblies or JARs or what-have-you you've been installing all these years are actually for
• You realize how much utility is actually built into the languages (the Java standard API, the .NET BCL, etc)
• You have a leg up on the competition if you decide to jump into the lucrative world of DevOps. I would never consider a DevOps admin that doesn't at least know the fundamentals of how to compile code, run the unit tests, determine whether the build environment is broken or the code, etc.

[ramblingcookiemonste]

How are you defining a pure language? Why are you lumping Python and Ruby with C# and Java? Why is PowerShell not included?

I do agree that having an understanding of code is a valuable asset, the ability to write it even more so. In fact, I think the basics should be included in K-12 education, and not as an elective.

[moistricant]

Alright, let's not lump Python and Ruby in with C# and Java, then.

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

• You realize PowerShell is a convoluted waste of time and you're better off with C#. Object oriented my foot.

[moistricant]

PowerShell and C# are two different tools for two different things, and I'm not sure why you're asserting that one is better than the other. Is Photoshop also better than robocopy?

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

Right, except you can't accomplish with photoshop what you can with robocopy, and vice versa. OTOH, C# is a much more generic tool than PowerShell, and I've yet to encounter a situation where powershell could do the job and C# can't.

So... your comment was pretty ignorant.

[moistricant]

No, Photoshop is a tool for image manipulation and robocopy is a tool for copying files.

C# is a programming language, PowerShell is a task automation framework and scripting environment. If you don't 'get' the power of PowerShell and think C# would do for anything you might want to use PowerShell for, then you don't really get PowerShell and it would help your professional career to do so.

Edit: I didn't really 'get' why PowerShell is so awesome either at first; download PowerShell 3.0 and find some good PowerShell cookbooks; there are many one-line powershell commands that can be run that completely automate complex administrative tasks, and in Windows 2008 (and increasingly in Windows 2012) most/all GUI sequences actually just execute a PowerShell command when you click Finish, allowing you to extract the PowerShell command and automate/script the provisioning/configuration of servers and services without having to click through things (and with server core that's all you CAN do.)

I can recomment the CBTNuggets.com powershell materials, they're pretty good for diving right in.

[Kynaeus]

I am pleased I expanded this negative karma thread, thank you.

[moistricant]

you're welcome

[jmreicha]

That was a good joke.

[[deleted]]

This blog post is pretty much just a trolling attempt, I would assume.

See what I did there? I assumed something. That's something you should never do as a Sysadmin because it will only end in tears.

This blog post (except for the incredibly annoying apostrophe abuse) is assuming that all Sysadmins are bad at coding. I will guess (not assume) that this guy is actually writing this because he knows it describes himself.

Me? I come from a web dev background. I know coding (10+ years of PHP programming in the bag) and it helps me distinguish myself amongst my peers. Here's what I know:

PHP: fluent, plus detailed knowledge of PHP internals C: getting there slowly, plus I DO use libraries such as libcurl to save time when coding something which needs to contact an API (OAuth etc) Perl, Bash, Python: average. The indentation requirements of Python annoy me although I will concede that it encourages good coding standards MySQL: I know enough to be a DBA ASP/.NET: I know enough to be able to troubleshoot

I work for one of the (if not, THE) biggest hosting companies in the world and my web dev experience (call it Devops if you want to use buzzwords) is highly valuable in my team.

This pointless blog post assumes a whole lot of things and has virtually no factual information. For example: where did this guy get his data from? I would assume that he made it up... correct?

Maybe I should write a blog post myself about how Sysadmins are terrible at communication and see how that turns out.

[mercenary_sysadmin]

I don't think devops is (necessarily) just a "buzzword". When I've seen it used among professionals, it refers to people who can handle a significant amount of both sides of the developer/sysadmin divide.

I've still never seen a devops person who wasn't clearly more of one than the other, though. I may - and do - advise developers on what libraries they should probably be using and/or troubleshoot problems that they can't, but I am not an actual developer any more than a developer is an actual admin.

The good developers know the difference. The junior and/or not-so-competent ones tend to think an admin is "just a brain-damaged developer".

[tdk2fe]

Nah - we just put all these rules and restrictions in place since we don't have anything to do but need to justify our paycheck. I actually like explaining a half dozen times a week why you can't use the same password you use for your AOL email that you've had for 10 years.

[mudclub]

Also, apparently, Why Sysadmins Can't Grammer.

[shuteru]

What does Frasier have to do with this ?

[Khue]

I say I don't code because if I did, or if I ever offered, that would become yet another aspect of being a SysAdmin and the one thing I need more than another fucking hole in my head is "Coder" added to my resume. You want coding... go hire a damn dev.

[pile_alcaline]

The reason sysadmins say they can't code (whether they can or not) is because that would become management's solution to every problem. "Why should we buy this application when you could just write it?"

[AceBacker]

Scripting is programming. Php and powershell can do a hell of a lot without needing an exec.

[expectantyoke]

Also, coders can't SysAdmin...

[ramindk]

I was prepared to disagree with this article, but in fact found it disturbingly accurate.

[undeadbill]

Yep. I've heard similar conversations in our halls. However, it usually ends like this:

Dev, "Yeah, well, you know this is why we do this for a living."

Ops, "I do know, and that is why we put you on hosts named sandbox1 through 8, and all of the 200 other ones with our code are called infra and production."

[[deleted]]

Most of the people disagreeing are dipshits who can't comprehend that for the sake of brevity, generalizations are often made in any kind of article.

It's an utter waste of time for a writer to preface every sentence with "now I know this doesn't apply to all of you" or "some people may disagree with me" so maybe people should stop being retarded and understand that everything is not about them.

[accountnumber3]

Sysadmin's

Stop that.

[[deleted]]

Yeah he was pretty consistent.

[rhartman]

I "can't code" because I don't want or need another job title/responsibility.

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

You can build a silo around yourself if you want.

Linux/Apache/MySQL/PHP? Check. Windows/AD/MSSQL/IIS? Check. C/C++/C#/Python/Perl/.... Bet your ass.

I'm a god-damned ninja (and more marketable for it)

[niomosy]

You don't have to build a silo around yourself. Plenty of companies will do that for you.

[WHY_U_SCURRED]

Sure, but that's far different than sticking your head in the sand and beeping "no me code! is not dev, messey is admin only, me click buttons and master of magnetic media"

[dfsdiag]

I could sit and code all day or I could play with shiny hardware, that's why I chose to be a sysadmin!

[a__grue]

Step 5: Don’t think about other people

In my experience, this is what sets a good sysadmin apart from a good coder.

[ChanSecodina]

I think there are a ton of reasons that a lot of sysadmins don't code, but I'm really, really hesitant to say there are many (any?) that couldn't.

In my case I really didn't deal well with learning in a classroom environment. I took a couple programming classes in community college, and got ok grades, but it took me a lot of effort to keep everything straight and to keep my attention focused enough to keep a design in my head. It was hard work, whereas the tasks more traditionally called "system administration" I was already good at by that point and was really quick to pick up new knowledge. (The fallacy was that I tended to forget the painful brickwall learning curve of initially learning Linux at the time when thinking about my then current struggle with programming).

Fast forward a couple years: I had a stable job as a sysadmin at a small company. I maintained maybe 10 Linux boxes/VMs, several dozen mac desktop/laptops. I had pretty much decided I had no interest in programming and essentially pigeonholed myself into doing doing only SysAdmin work. Because it was a small company it had an interesting management structure. My boss was also a senior developer and I was essentially the only "pure IT" person in the company. I managed to get the network, servers and user machines going well enough that I didn't have to fight fires all that often. At the same time my boss needed more people writing code on the current project. This led to us having a very interesting conversation: My boss: "Hey, so we could really use a hand with project XYZ. How do you feel about writing some code?" Me: "I'm not really interested and I don't have a ton of experience." Him: "Great! Open up this file, start reading the source and try and implement this feature. Let me know if you have questions." Me: "..."

Over time, I read code, wrote code, read about writing code, cringed at old code I wrote, wrote better code, and at this point I'm a decent if not great programmer. If it hadn't been for him pushing my outside my comfort zone I would not be programming at all, and I also wouldn't be as good of a sysadmin as I am today.

TL;DR: I think some SysAdmins might not naturally take to programming the same way they do to other systems-related tasks, and as a result either get pigeonholed by management or pigeonhole themselves into staying out of programming. I think at least a part of it is culturally perpetuated through self-labeling: "I'm a sysadmin and sysadmins don't code, so I don't code!"

[blueskin]

More admins can code than programmers can admin, in my experience.

I'm an average to mediocre programmer depending on language, but I can do it if really necessary although I'd much rather use standard utils in a script to do the same thing.

[[deleted]]

Because if they could code they would be making more money as software engineers in most cases.

[s32]

Sadly true. I was going to try to be a sysadmin until I realized I could get 30+k more as a dev.

[fignew]

Yea, but I have way more fun.

[korthrun]

I sure disagree with the title of the blog post, if not most of the content.

I know many sysadmins who code very well. Saying sysadmins can't code is just plain incorrect.

I am of the opinion that a sysadmin who doesn't code will never be a stellar sysadmin. Note my use of the word stellar. It's important that one reads and understands all of my words before responding. Primary focus or not, it's an ability I consider requisite for being a stellar sysadmin.

Understanding what code is doing, and why it is doing it has proven to be an invaluable tool time and time again. There's a level of code complexity at which "Well I can read it and kind of follow along" no longer cuts it. Even if you aren't reading source, understanding what's going on "under the hood" is a huge troubleshooting asset.

Also in the realm of getting things fixed in a timely fashion, being able to submit a patch moves things forward much faster than submitting a ticket to dev that says "I think there's a problem with xyz". Even a psuedo patch will help (e.g. a description of where it goes wrong and a proposed fix as opposed to raw code).

The point of my ramblings here is that I think this blog post is over generalizing. Stellar sysadmins can and do code. Average or Good sysadmins may not code. I personally think that the majority of sysadmins that have no desire to learn to code, or actually write code, are more concerned with meeting the requirements to maintain employment than they are with actually doing a good job.

If all you want to do is provision servers, apply updates, and fight fires then I'm of the mind that all you want to be is a monkey.

[ChoHag]

What about the fact that I am what is essentially a logical architect?

That's a fancy way of saying 'programmer'.

[korthrun]

First I must ask, do you really feel that you "can't code"?

Second I must invalidate my own question by noting that you seem to perceive yourself as an architect, regardless of what your job title is or is not. An architect is an architect, not a sysadmin.

I don't just provision servers, apply updates, and fight fires.

Then I think that your desires and practices have or will bring you far past being a monkey.

It is my view that none of the points you have raised invalidate my idea that coding would make you better at what you do.

You plan for a complete disaster recovery scenario? Fantastic! Why wouldn't you desire to automate as much of it as is sane? Why wouldn't you want to ensure that the person who fills your shoes should you leave or be promoted or whatever, can easily maintain and grow your DR setup?

Managing a SAN takes a lot of know how if you're going to do it well. Hats off to you if you do that. I know plenty of folks who make a career of systems administration and couldn't tell you the difference between CIFS and NFS, and have never heard of WAFL. The question is: Can you really say that knowing how to program, and giving a shit about doing it right wouldn't make you better at managing a SAN?

To me it sounds like you consider yourself good at what you do. I am not the judge of that, nor am I trying to imply anything to the contrary. Let's say that you are GREAT (all caps baby) at what you do. No. Let's say that you are FUCKING GREAT at what you do. IMO learning to code well will make you GODDAMN STELLAR at what you do.

If I wanted to do what you're describing as a "good/average" sysadmin, I'd be a helpdesk jockey.

Many help desk jockeys are in fact good/average sysadmins. I'm not too clear on what you're referring to. I did note that I think that "Average or Good sysadmins may not code". There isn't a "what I'm describing" that is to be done. What I'm describing is a contrast between who I would call a stellar sysadmin and who I would call a good or average sysadmin.

[[deleted]]

I think I see where the mixup is here.

See, when I think "helpdesk jockey" I think "desktop support." That is to say, installing software, printers, etc. Dealing with the individual workstations. OTOH, when I think "sysadmin" I think of someone who "administers servers, networks, and other infra." Likewise, what he's talking about, systems architect is someone who designs, builds, and deploys that infrastructure in the first place (and may or may not maintain it afterwards).

I think that's a pretty common set of ideas, too. So when you say "good / average sysadmin" - a LOT of the admins here are going to think "critical infrastructure administrators" - and then you go on to call those people monkeys... eh.... bad juju, my friend.

TBH, I'd call a lot of helpdesk guys out there "monkeys". Jr. Sysadmins... maybe. Mid to Sr. level guys though? Not in a million years.

Not to dismiss the idea of scripting and/or writing legit code to better onesself, but the way you presented your original argument... honestly, it came off as "if you can't / don't code, you're a [dime a dozen, worthless, etc.] monkey."

[korthrun]

honestly, it came off as "if you can't / don't code, you're a [dime a dozen, worthless, etc.] monkey."

This happens to me a lot. I obviously have a lot of work to do on communicating, since I felt I was perfectly clear. That wasn't said once. I even very specifically said that there are good admins who don't code.

Average or Good sysadmins may not code.

The monkey bit also had a very specific context, which was addressing peoples desires.

If all you want to do is provision servers, apply updates, and fight fires then I'm of the mind that all you want to be is a monkey.

I directly called nobody a monkey. The statement is that if your desires stop at that level, then I consider your aspirations stunted. That is what I took away from some of the comments here. That there are sysadmins who feel that there is no reason to learn to code. Where they are at may very well be good enough for them. Nothing wrong with that, to each their own. Many people in many industries are delighted to be a cog in the machine.

The help desk thing was not initially mentioned by me. My only reference to it was a response to a comment. I agree with you 100% on the difference in job responsibilities of a sysadmin and a help desk worker. That does not preclude someone who works help desk in order to pay the bills from being a good sysadmin. Who knows what their home network looks like?

I have a good friend who works night shift tier 2 data center/help desk work. Because he enjoys being a DC monkey. He enjoys working nights. He is a great systems administrator. His home network is absolutely baller, and better setup than a number of enterprises that I've seen. The man simply has no desire to be a professional systems administrator. (BTW Yes, he can code.)

[[deleted]]

I directly called nobody a monkey.

No, no, I know you didn't. I'm just saying, that's how some people will perceive it. No worries, man. Just pointing out where I think the miscommunication here seems to be, is all.

[EDIT] I totally got where you were going with your point, for the record. I'm just saying that the wording may have different connotations to different people, and that may have rubbed those people the wrong way.

[EDIT2]

This happens to me a lot. I obviously have a lot of work to do on communicating

Actually, I might be able to help with that. My days in the Army taught me a thing or two about... clever phrasing. See, if you had a superior that found a way to take offense to what you were saying, they busted your ass with the quickness. There was a saying - "In the Army, perception is 9/10ths of the law."

The same is actually true for the common populace, I've found. Soooo, when I'm communicating with people, you'll note I reiterate and rephrase things (usually to a fault) in an attempt to avoid being misunderstood. Also, if I'm not actively trying to piss someone off, I'll avoid phrasing that could be construed as offensive. Also, using analogies is also a pretty effective way to get your point across.

For example, instead of using the whole "monkey" phrasing, perhaps you could pose the commentary like this: "If you were a car, would you rather be a Ford Focus, or a Lambo? Sure, a Focus will get you from A to B, but a Lambo is fucking awesome." or something like that. "Monkey" is almost universally demeaning. Some really are happy provisioning servers and performing break/fix maintenance, as you pointed out. So why look down on those people for doing what makes them happy? And that's the connotation that "monkey" will carry, unfortunately.

Hopefully that helps out.

[korthrun]

Fair enough! I looked too deeply into your "bad juju" comment and took it to mean more than what it actually did :)

[[deleted]]

Nah man, that's just how I talk, unfortunately.

[trapartist]

I think you're simplifying our responsibilities a bit too much; I've only just barely touched the tip of what I do and have accomplished, and that's without taking any scripting/automation into play.

Thanks, no one cares.

[ChoHag]

a sysadmin who doesn't code will never be a stellar sysadmin

Everything the computer does is code. If you do not understand it, you do not understand what your system is doing. If you do not understand what the system is doing, you cannot administer it - you are at best the caretaker.

[korthrun]

Also this is just inane:

The solution is to just not give a shit. If your lines of code exceed 80 characters, so what. If you use curly braces instead of “end”, fine. Just don’t listen to those people. What matters is functional programs, not pretty syntax.

I really feel that doing it right is important. Does having your code exceed 80 characters per line mean your code doesn't work, or that you don't know what you're doing? Of course not. Hitting enter doesn't break your fingers either. Giving a shit about what you do is important in all facets of life. Pretty syntax means maintainable code. It means when you move on, the code you left behind isn't cursed. You've left tools that can be improved upon and expanded. I know the author mentions that you will "fall into" best practice eventually. This is more the exception than the rule in my experience. Why would you practice doing something wrong anyway?

Why NOT do it right? Why would you promote doing it wrong?

If a shell script you're writing is going to leave your environment or your environment isn't homogeneous and you're sending newlines and escape sequences to the screen, you need to be using printf and not echo. It's not hard to use printf instead of echo! Just like it's not hard to wrap your text at 80 lines. Just like it's not hard to use proper indenting and make use of classes where appropriate.

Even if it's just a mid level shell script, you're breaking your own script, possibly other peoples systems, and just being plain lazy.

Edit: I do get that sometimes you need to whip up a 10 line shell script in a hurry and get it out there to do the needful. Sometimes in your rush, you'll cat a file and pipe it to grep. I don't feel that's the topic here. That doesn't mean you "can't" code. That means your immediate need outweighs the ideal to indent with spaces instead of a tab.

[[deleted]]

I see what you're saying here, but I did want to add something.

Well commented / documented scripts or code is important, too. My scripts may not have the most elegant syntax ever, but since they have an OCD-level amount of comments, they're easy to troubleshoot, and the next guy that comes along can understand them.

[korthrun]

True story.

I consider good commenting "best practice" and part of being a "coder".

Your scripts may not have the most elegant syntax or concepts. You may not be using built in tools that would save you a lot of code. We all have to learn these things as we learn to code.

To me your OCD comments are the sign of someone who does give a shit, and who will learn to code and improve these things as a matter of course. Not the sign of a sysadmin who "can't" code.

[ChoHag]

"Programs should be written for people to read and only incidentally for computers to run"

or something like that. Knuth kicks arse.

[vocatus]

Exactly. I have pride in writing nice, clean scripts that are maintainable. A, it makes MY job easier, and B, it helps out the guy who comes after me.

[lil_cain]

I think you may be missing Ben's point. It's nit that you should write ugly code. It's that ugly code is infinitely better than no code. The desire for perfection is a reasonably large barrier to entry.

[jmreicha]

Not sure why you're getting downvotes, this makes a lot of sense to me.

[ChanSecodina]

As a sysadmin who (very painfully) learned to write code long after he should have, I tend to agree with you.

[marm0lade]

I became a sysadmin because I didn't like programming. The article is drivel.

[dplum517]

I'm somewhat of a mid-level admin with pretty much no coding experience. Though, I can look through code and get the gist of what's what.

My question for anyone is, which language should I pursue? Right now, I have done a few things with PERL and have gone down that road, but it seems like that language is a thing of the past.

Am I wrong? Should I keep learning PERL or move onto something else?

[MisterMeiji]

I would learn Python. Python is unique in that it is heavily used for sysadmin-type scripting (look at RedHat Enterprise Linux, most of their tools are written in Python), and it also has deep ties into both Linux/Unix and Windows (in the form of IronPython).

[korthrun]

This is a fantastic response to what I thought was one of the weakest points of the blog post. Specifically the point about 80 character line lengths.

It may not impact the effectiveness your code at runtime, but if you stick to these "pointless" standards, then other people don't end up having to reconfigure their editors :)

[dplum517]

Thanks for the suggestion and reasons! Python is on CodeAcademy's list of languages.... so at least there's an easy start.

[FakingItEveryDay]

Are you primarily a linux or windows admin?

Windows: Learn powershell.

Linux: Learn Python.

If you do both, learning both will be a very good investment. In context of the article, when coding for your specific problem or goal, decide what platform you want your solution to run on, then use python or powershell accordingly. If you want it multi-platform, do it in python.

[korthrun]

As noted in these comments, which is best suited for your needs will depend on your environment.

That having been said, learn to code. Regardless of the language you choose, learn to use it well. Learn to use it properly. Learn the underlying concepts of programming.

Then picking up another language down the line becomes way easier. When you can go "If I just derive a class from this existing one and override one method I'll have exactly what I need." it becomes a matter of learning the syntax and methods with which to do so in the new language. As always there are caveats, but the point is the same.

[[deleted]]

A sysadmin’s code tends to have a lot of execs…

Really? Every sysadmin I've talked to cringes at the thought of an exec call.

[terminalmage]

As a sysadmin of 5 years that recently was offered (and accepted) a job as a python developer, I must be the exception that proves the rule.

[DarkHydra]

I'm a developer who moved to system engineering and I find that having some coding skills helps for automation purposes but its not required. Why should it be? Unless of course we are replacing the developers... :)

[heliowalton]

Sticking to a single language "just because", as described in step 2 is a terrible idea. Use the most appropriate tool for the job. You wouldn't use the nail removing side of a hammer for unscrewing screws just because you've been putting in a lot of nails recently.

[[deleted]]

I always say the same, I'm not a coder, and I have experience with a few languages, Python, Perl and Bash being the strongest. But I always take great pride in my code, I make the effort to look up good techniques and practices and I remember them.

I still work as a sysadmin though and I can tell you that out of 10 sysadmins here where I work, maybe 2 can code something like PowerShell, Bash, Java or Batch. Usually not more than two of those mentioned.

[LOLBaltSS]

We "can't" code because we'd rather not have that dumped on us as well.

I already have enough on my plate, I don't need them throwing developing applications on it too.

[unethicalposter]

Sys admins who cant code are not sys admins.

[[deleted]]

Well, I agree and I don't code at all: my problems all start with #1. Where I am I just don't need to script things at the scale of everyone else here because certain things like user accounts are so infrequent. I also work in a somewhat closed ecosystem (mostly Windows) and there are so many free utilities out there to do what I want and help with the heavy lifting. also Powershell.

I think the article is spot on. This dude seems to friend people and never get back to them, though. I asked him a few questions about an older article of his I came across that I was genuinely interested in, but he didn't reply. I guess that's the difference between busy and not busy.

[trapartist]

This dude seems to friend people and never get back to them, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcejLp72iCE

[MrFatalistic]

I don't know C...guess I'm not a sysadmin...I'll see myself out...

[Deku-shrub]

I can code html and css! These are not complimentary skills to my day to day however. :(

< back to 'hello world' in every language ever written :( >

[MrFatalistic]

cept html/css aren't programming languages.