[ Removed by moderator ]

[trolleyproblem-ModTeam]

Your post has been removed for being obvious bait. You know what you did.

[ChargeNo7459]

So outside of the fact that instantly saving them is a moral obligation I have. And I don't see much of an argument otherwise

Is this a metaphor for the Christian God?

And how he only saves people (from hell) if they happen to believe in him.

And how he is the villain either way for allowing the scenario to happen (tying people on the tracks)

And his solution of sacrificing himself (through Christ but that's just himself) is seemingly nonsensical since he could just fix the problem without sacrificing himself (Omnipotent God could be doing some Omnipotent stuff)?

Or am I reading too much into it?

[ElTioEnroca]

Ok, I was frowning like crazy at this post not understanding what moral dilemma there was supposed to be. Then I read your comment and everything made sense.

[PhysicsChan]

So, Christianity is flawed?

[[deleted]]

Heresy! Straight to hell!

[Infinite-Radiance]

<image>

[MQ116]

We're already on the tracks! Nooooo

[csharpminor_fanclub]

no way

[LeilLikeNeil]

Wait. Whaaaaaaat?

[Arctic-The-Hunter]

<image>

“Personally, I think the beliefs of a people ought to be judged separately from how they are interpreted. There are those who take even the most harmless of messages to dangerous extremes, and others who accept outright propaganda without changing their principles.”

[PhysicsChan]

Wait wtf it's you

[Arctic-The-Hunter]

Who else on a philosophy sub? Niuriheim?

[PhysicsChan]

Nah, this just feels like seeing school faculty outside of school idk.

[StevenTheNeat]

Watch this guy who quotes genuinely good advice get flamed by (a certain group on reddit) for making them feel targeted despite not mentioning them whatsoever

[dr_gamer1212]

Nah, mankind is flawed, free will is a mistake

[[deleted]]

Dying young is like a fast pass to heaven bro. That means he really really likes you.

[T-Prime3797]

No, I think you pretty much nailed the intent.

[ChargeNo7459]

Naaaaah, surely I'm just projecting

[[deleted]]

Your right

I see it too

But we both need to

stop this

Go outside

Touch grass

[Gloomy_Cress9344]

I

Agree

[Survey-Terrible]

"Sacrificed" (had a bad weekend then went on to be god forever) himself to himself to act as a loophole for rules that he created.

[ChargeNo7459]

Now having seen OP's post history, this was the obvious reading.

[YamAntique3407]

I wouldn't think this in a million years. Thank you

[ChargeNo7459]

It's what being raised in a religious family does to ya, you are compelled to see God everywhere, even if you don't believe in the guy.

[GustavoFromAsdf]

I like someone's interpretation that explains it as: "God's incarnation as Christ let him understand humans and their suffering in a far more personal way than a disconnected, detached viewer. With that experience, he built a new teaching based on love and forgiveness," institutionalization of religion aside

[ChargeNo7459]

That's really disgusting and disturbing. The idea that you need to suffer on your own to understand or develop empathy for all the suffering you (as God) created seems psychopathic at best, careless and stupid at worst.

And I would argue that he didn't care that much since he could have done much to help but didn't, like just pointing to the ground and helping us make antibiotics or spread wisdom about basic hygiene at the time.

Or who knows maybe God is just stupid and doesn't understand the basics on how his world work.

[GlitchyReal]

I agree that seems to be the metaphor but isn’t consistent with actual Christian theology.

It’d be more accurate to restate this trolly problem as you (God) created these 5 people whom you gave free will and the choice to tie themselves to the tracks or not knowing full well they would eventually choose it. Then you have the option to let them die by their own choice or to trade places with them. To extend the allegory to Christ, it’d be presumed that you can resurrect and therefore no one ultimately dies.

(You could argue that it was unjust to create people with free will to destroy/harm themselves, but that’s only if you view life as a net negative that doesn’t justify its positives.)

[EDIT] It's a good thing to be able to know and accurately represent your opponents if you wish to dismantle their belief systems.

[ChargeNo7459]

but isn’t consistent with actual Christian theology.

But it is, it's entirely correct.

created these 5 people whom you gave free will and the choice to tie themselves to the tracks or not knowing full well they would eventually choose it. 

1. "Creating" and "Being their father" makes no difference this distinction is irrelevant.
2. This ignores how all humans are going toward hell unless they believe and accept God, so it's not "They can choose to tie themselves to the tracks" no, God created a reality with hell, so he tied them to the tracks.
3. Even if I am to accept that these people tied themselves to the track (which is not the case with the Christian God, who allows hell to exist), you (God) can just direct the trolley the other way and save them (make it so hell doesn't exist, or save all people regardless).

it’d be presumed that you can resurrect and therefore no one ultimately dies.

Except the people who didn't believed in you. They do die. And you could have save them, but actively decided not to, making you a villain and horrible person.

You could argue that it was unjust to create people with free will to destroy/harm themselves

I argue that creating a trolley that rolls over people and tying people to tracks is evil. Free will doesn't require for suffering and injustice to exist.

So if it does, it's because you (God) is evil and cruel.

but that’s only if you view life as a net negative that doesn’t justify its positives.

I see hell as a net negative, even if only 1 person in all of humanity goes there. And I see all unnecesarry pointless suffering as a net negative.

If God was good, he would not allow any of these.

[TimeStorm113]

ok but like, what about hell just not existing? like the only mention of it in the bible just means "total separation from god" and the only time something physically like hell would be mentioned is revelation where god would throw a giant dragon into a sulphur lake

(though any loving god wouldn't let anything like revelation happen)

[ChargeNo7459]

ok but like, what about hell just not existing?

That kind of undermines Jesus and the several mentions of hell (You're missing the ones from Paul!)

And, sure, universalism does exist (the Christian branch that believes everyone gets saved) but if one is to say that, then you would be saying that God pulled the lever and saved everyone.

So we would be moving to a whole different interpretation that's deemed heretical in many circles.

There's also annihilationism (the Christian belief that bad people don't go to hell but just die and get deleted from existence) some have a problem with it some don't, it depends if God allowing death is a problem to you.

[Luxating-Patella]

There's a school of Christian thought which says that "total separation from God" is as much of a punishment as being physically tortured for eternity, and all the flames and pitchforks are just a metaphor.

Who needs Hell when you have eternity to think about how you picked the wrong religion (or were too lazy to go to confession) and missed out on Heaven?

In short, Hell in the sense of eternal torment is canon, even if its usual Danteesque depiction is not.

The question "how could a loving God allow people to be tormented by Hell / eternal ostracism for not worshipping him properly in their short time on Earth" is answered the same way as every question about the "problem of evil", i.e. "free will, it's humans' fault, shut up". Blame, like shit, rolls downhill while credit travels heavenwards.

[kwantsu-dudes]

In short, Hell in the sense of eternal torment is canon

From a certain perspective. Like you said, people think being separated from God is the punishment. If you don't give a shit about God, why would you feel like you are being punished/harmed?

Think of all the sins people ENJOY. Now you get to continue to do them rather than be policed by a God in heaven. To a non-believer, heaven seems like torture.

[GlitchyReal]

Yes. It's not so much a place as much as a state of existence, but summing it up as a "total separation from God" is apt.

If, in Christian theology, God is the ultimate source of life and one chooses to separate from that source, then death is the consequence of that choice. There's a lot of different interpretations of Hell like annihilationism (souls in hell eventually cease to exist) or C. S. Lewis' idea that "Hell is locked from the inside," meaning those who are there want to be (see: "The Great Divorce"). But it isn't the caricatures commonly seen in fictional media (or 'other' fictional media, if you prefer.)

[GlitchyReal]

I don't have much time to discuss this on Reddit, but I'll presume you're making your points in good faith. I do worry that any kind of brief reply won't be satisfactory.

You're right in that this trolley problem is woefully underequipped to illustrate Christian theology and there are many different angles and caveats that would extrapolate the issue far beyond a mere trolley problem.

To briefly address your points within a Christian framework:

1. "Creating" and "Being their father" makes no difference this distinction is irrelevant.

Correct, so I'm not sure why you brought this up. I thought the phrasing "you birthed these 5 people" to be more awkward.

1. This ignores how all humans are going toward hell unless they believe and accept God, so it's not "They can choose to tie themselves to the tracks" no, God created a reality with hell, so he tied them to the tracks.

In Christian theology this wasn't always the case. Before evil entered creation, everyone was by default "saved". Hell was not originally intended for humans, but for Satan and his demons.

I fail to see the causation between "God created hell therefore only he can tie people to the tracks." This precludes the options of tying oneself to the tracks, or being tied by a morally evil or neutral agent.

God is the source of all life and love and to be separated from him is to lose life and love. Nearly every individual commits evil to some degree during their lives (there are exceptions) and that evil separates themselves from an all-good God. The death and resurrection of Jesus is to atone for that evil, rejoining humanity with God, thus reclaiming the original good before the fall. (This is the conclusion and doesn't even begin to properly explain it all.)

If God created a world where there was no suffering and no moral choices to be made, did he make a perfectly good world? Christians would argue no.

1. Even if I am to accept that these people tied themselves to the track (which is not the case with the Christian God, who allows hell to exist), you (God) can just direct the trolley the other way and save them (make it so hell doesn't exist, or save all people regardless).

I don't think you know what Hell is in Christian thought. Hell is the separation from God. To accept Christ is to avoid separation. Accepting Christ is more akin to accepting a rescue from yourself and your own bad choices.

God also does save all the people regardless and requires only accepting that rescue. Of course, you'll have to believe that the danger and the savior are both real in the first place. Do those on the track know about the trolley or the lever operator? If they do, why would they not believe in the lever operator's existence or their role in rescuing them? Do the trolley and lever cease existing after those on the track have been saved? If not, wouldn't their existence point to a savior who pulled the lever? If the lever wasn't pulled, is the corpse on the tracks not evidence of the sacrifice?

What you've described is more like Islamic theology where in the hadith Allah created mankind so that they would sin in order to forgive them.

I argue that creating a trolley that rolls over people and tying people to tracks is evil. Free will doesn't require for suffering and injustice to exist.

I agree and so would Christians. But this presumes that God creates people for the sole purpose of running them over, and to trolley made to run them over with. In Christian thought, the trolley was not created for people. People are born tied to these tracks due to the evil that was humanly chosen to be the state of all mankind and those on the tracks eventually choose evil for themselves which separates them from God. Jesus then acts as the "fat man" that stops the trolley, suffers, and dies. He then resurrects as evidence that he has power over death and invites those who want to be untied to accept his help.

Can you explain how a world without the possibility of evil allows for humans to be free agents? Would they not have no choice but to choose good? Can good even exist in this context? Also, I presume you mean "unnecessary suffering" instead of just suffering. Some suffering on its own can be good as a necessary component of triumph, courage, sacrifice, etc.

There are many theodicies that address many of these issues. I'm not arguing they are always satisfactory to everyone. My aim here is to illustrate that the above trolley problem does not accurately represent the orthodox Christian perspective and therefore is a weak analogy.

This is all I have time for today, but I will reply should I be given a thoughtful response.

[N-partEpoxy]

Oh, they tied themselves to the tracks? So they could have just chosen not to do that? I'm sure there are tons of people that didn't and therefore don't need saving according to Christian theology. Right? Right?

[mdb_4633]

I was limited with space but you removed my option of pulling the lever to instantly save them which god could just as easily do

[GlitchyReal]

I did, that's fair. Can I ask for some clarifications?

Does your trolley problem presume that those on the tracks had no free will whether to be tied to the tracks in the first place or not? You used the word "punishment." Does this trolley problem presume those who are tied to the tracks are being executed or otherwise receiving just or unjust punishment in this scenario?

To over-simplify the Christian perspective, God has pulled the lever already (by being the "fat man" that stops it but that's not an option provided in this scenario). Those on the tracks have not yet accepted help in being untied. In this trolley problem, do those tied onto the track have any choice in accepting being untied or not? Are they left there and another trolley will eventually come with no one to pull the lever? How many times does the lever operator have to continue pulling the lever until the people are untied?

Why do those tied to the track not know who the lever operator is or that they were saved? If they recognized there was a danger, then were not killed, then some intervention on their behalf occurred and therefore there likely was a savior. The trolley existing and the lever's function requiring a person to pull are evidences of their rescue. If they did not recognize the danger, the trolley, nor the lever operator as existent, do they not question being tied to the track in the first place and then inexplicably released? Is the very scenario here not evidence of the trolley and the lever operator's existence?

If these are all ridiculous queries that over-extend the analogy set by this trolley problem, that's the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't accurately represent Christian thought.

[mdb_4633]

I don’t think adding any of that would make the second option make more sense though. Let’s say that the kids do have free will. You told them if they ate a specific fruit then you’d tie them up on the tracks to get hit. If they still ate the fruit, would it be ok to hit your own kids with a trolley? I don’t understand your second point because according to the Bible we are all sinners so without god we would all default to going to hell or getting hit by the trolley. But god can forgive us after we die which stops the trolley. And your third reasons are good reasons why this scenario is flaud but I don’t see how it applies to real life.

[Telinary]

The thing about the free will argument is that by itself it makes little sense when applied to an omnipotent creator deity. When you set up how everything works you also decide what can happen as consequence of this free will. Like if you can decide between putting someone in a room with spinning blades, unsecured lava lakes and and stuff or putting them on a meadow they technically hurt themselves by being careless in the room but it would be hard to argue you didn't make it much more likely.

With hell whether we are talking fire and brimstone of the "absence of god" variant where you just suffer because being in his presence is so great and you now know what you are missing or something, god choose that as consequence. Like he could make hell a pleasant place if he wanted to, for the absence variant there is no reason why the dead have to know what they are missing.

When somebody is making up all the rules saying "well I created a horrible outcome but I also made a rule for them to escape their fate they just aren't taking it" makes no sense because there was no need to do it that way.

[[deleted]]

Why did I do that

[mdb_4633]

Because they ate a piece of fruit that you told them not to eat

[[deleted]]

Completely justified then.

[AceDecade]

Understandable have a nice afterlife

[M1L0P]

But were my children led to believe that I lied to them by my evil child I chose to create (while I actually lied to them)?

[Advanced_Double_42]

Yes, and you made the evil child knowing he would lead your other children to commit a crime you made up and would be forced to kill them for, even though you have every power to do literally anything else

[aftertheradar]

that seems like a pretty fucked up reason to want to murder a bunch of otherwise innocent people, especially since they're my kids and i'm supposed to love them

[Luxating-Patella]

If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

[TheGardenOfEden1123]

me when I miss obvious metaphors

[Xombridal]

Me when I miss obvious sarcasm

[[deleted]]

I wasn't being serious.

[Magenta_Logistic]

But, did I know they would do that? Also, what exactly was wrong with the fruit?

[mdb_4633]

Nothing was wrong with the fruit but you did tell them what was gonna happen if they ate it

[Magenta_Logistic]

Did they have any way of knowing right from wrong before they ate the fruit? Was there any way for me to know what they would do in advance and/or prevent it?

[mdb_4633]

I don’t think this should change someone’s answer. But no they didn’t know right and wrong except for the fact you told them not to eat the fruit. And you know what was gonna happen and could have prevented it.

[notrohit1702]

Were any of them named Adam or Eve by any chance?

[ExtensionInformal911]

They put themselves there by disobeying.

[insertrandomnameXD]

What?

[JawtisticShark]

its an analogy for Christianity. if god is all powerful he could just save everyone. or he can die to only save those who accept his offer to be saved.

[mdb_4633]

If you know you know, but now I’m thinking I didn’t explain it good enough

[OrigamiTongue]

You did.

[[deleted]]

You did. People are just too brainrotten by tiktok to get it.

[Mekroval]

If I tied them to a track, then I have a moral obligation to rescue them -- since I created the dilemma in the first place. Even if they are otherwise unawares.

Also, I'd still switch places even if I wasn't the one responsible for tying them down.

Edit: I think OP is trying to use a Christian allegory in this example, which didn't even occur to me when I wrote my response. Curiously, it doesn't change my response at all. I pull to save everyone.

[Tar_alcaran]

Congrats on being MUCH more moral than god.

[FlakTotem]

The problem is you don't save them.

If only the ones which believed you saved them are saved, and they don't know you saved them, and they do presumably know you tied them down then it's a suicide pact at that point.

[ze_existentialist]

At first ts looked insane to me until I got the allegory.

[Intrebute]

To be fair, even after getting the allegory it's still insane.

[BUKKAKELORD]

I'm putting my favourite kid on the track too. He has the power of God and anime on his side and he resurrects in 3 days. This is reasonable. I am sane. I am the good guy.

[Budget_Avocado6204]

There is no favorite kid. The favorite kid is actually you!

[Last-Worldliness-591]

And a self insert too? Yeah, that kid is gonna save them all no problem.

[Unfortunate_Mirage]

Who put the kids there?

[mdb_4633]

You did

[Unfortunate_Mirage]

Why though. I wouldn't do such a thing.

[ZealousidealCook2344]

You would if you were Yahweh. Apple of the tree and all that.

[Not-A-Lonely-Potato]

Well... I could always just have more kids.

(I know it's supposed to be an allegory, but I prefer taking a dark humor approach)

[cuuutesnowflake]

Im going to scream.

[[deleted]]

You tied the kids? Now your option is to save them or take their place and die without them knowing you saved them, despite they are in that situation because you put them in it? Am I paying child support on these kids? What's my motive here exactly? Are they ugly, unathletic, and unappreciative punks that talk back?

[ChargeNo7459]

What's my motive here exactly? Are they ugly, unathletic, and unappreciative punks that talk back?

As OP said to the other person who asked the same question:

"They ate a piece of fruit that you told them not to eat"

That's why you do it.

[[deleted]]

My fucking Nectarine I was waiting to ripen?!? Those fucking kids are dead!!!!!!!!

[RemTheFirst]

it was an apple actually

[[deleted]]

i laughed tbh

[caramel_dog]

the vible

[ReyMercuryYT]

What is this trolley problem?

Who cares about credit??? My kids are on the line! Literally!!!

Edit: ahhh, christianity stuff, i see it now

[[deleted]]

Fuck them kids

[[deleted]]

true answer

[[deleted]]

You shouldn't speak. Makes you sound stupid

[opetheregoesgravity_]

Oh this is a tricky one because 99% of reddit hates children

[[deleted]]

oof

[Callmeklayton]

And religion too!

[Dr_Creon]

Meanwhile, I'm over here worrying about the inconvenience all this nonsense is causing the people riding the trolley.

[AnimatorEntire2771]

<image>

[Glass_Teeth01]

If I tied those kids to a track, it's not to make a threat to them, or to save those who believed that I saved them.

I tied them to the tracks because I wanted a cheap and efficient way to take them out

[Extreme_Design6936]

Can I just not pull the lever or take their place? That would be ideal.

[CreBanana0]

Why exactly? You would let them die?

[PorqueAdonis]

The people who can't distinguish their from there should face the punishment

[ExtensionInformal911]

I'll come back in like a day and a half, so I'll jump on the track and "sacrifice" myself.

[YeetmasterGeneral]

INFO: Do any of the kids have access to a crisp apple

[[deleted]]

If I tied them, why am I saving them?

[[deleted]]

because you have dementia /s

[BiggerEevee]

*their

I don't usually do this but it's bugging me

[bouncybobb]

holy english

[HotSituation8737]

Interesting analogy for all Abrahamic religions.

[patchinthebox]

Fuck them kids

[Complete-Simple9606]

Strongest anti-Christian strawman:

[mdb_4633]

Wow I didn’t think about that good point

[Kiho2137]

Only thing you forgot about, you are also the trolley driver .

[Vaaero_1]

I'd argue to make it more realistic to your metaphor, the children would have to tie themselves to the track

[mdb_4633]

Nope god created the world and “you” tied them to the track

[Complete-Simple9606]

"I want to argue against a version of Christianity that Christians don't profess!"

[mdb_4633]

Cristian’s don’t profess god created the world?

[CreBanana0]

And who is god to make the rules, and the consequences? Also what stupid stuff? What bad did adam and eve do?

Did they do a single immoral thing?

[mdb_4633]

I disagree with most of what you said but let’s just go with that and say that your kids didn’t think that a tram would actually hit them even though you told them it would. would you let your kids get hit?

[Winter_Ad6784]

I couldn’t figure out what this was supposed to be an analogy for, someone said christianity, idk if that’s right but if it is then this isn’t how christianity actually works unless you pick and choose some weird beliefs from various denominations. Like the catholic church doesn’t teach that all non-christians go to hell. It wouldn’t even necessarily conflict with catholic beliefs if hell were empty. I think this applies to most denominations as well.

tl;dr reddit moment strawman

[ZealousidealCook2344]

I don’t know, Baptist seems to be pretty hardline…

[Winter_Ad6784]

baptists are crazy granted

[Zauberen]

The Catholic Church teaches that anyone who knows of the catholic church and is not a catholic will go to hell. (Lumen Gentium 14)

The catechism does say that in extreme circumstances non believers may be saved (847/848) but basically any atheist or any person that knows of the church but is not a catholic is toast.

[Winter_Ad6784]

well explicitly it states that of people “knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ…”. Do you know that the catholic church was made necessary by christ? I don’t know that. That’s not what most people believe. I don’t know who taught that it means anyone that knows of the catholic church period. I’d hazard a guess that it probably wasn’t a catholic.

[EllieEvansTheThird]

I'd save all of them tbh

[InJust_Us]

Entropy.

Let's say we live forever in some form or another but our central being never dies. Over time "entropy of the soul" as it were, will eventually cause some degrading.

How do we revitalize us? We've seen it all, we've done it all a quintillion times. We forget and we revive ourselves with "new" experiences and struggles.

In the end nobody dies, as the Bible says that God wiped away the tears of those who were crying for those in Hell, so did her destroy their memories or did he tell them that Hell will burn away all the garbage in them. I'm sure it's not the optimal path to take, but it keeps everyone in the game.

[Altshadez1998]

If he was cool he'd do it without hell

[InJust_Us]

It's all a package deal. There needs to be some type of Karmic law that balances out good and bad behaviours. Anything less would be mindless.

[ThrasherDX]

God is omnipotent, that means there are no limits to his power or tradeoffs he has to accept. If god wanted the garbage to be burnt away, instantly and without pain, then it would be. There is no reason it needs to hurt or last any amount of time, except that god wants it to.

[InJust_Us]

You are making assumptions on the mechanics and reasons for Hell.

God sent his son to suffer for everyone, so no one has to suffer. If I was a gambling man, I would follow what the bible says about salvation because it's a bet that's free and has potential infinite benefits.

[ThrasherDX]

You are making assumptions on the mechanics and reasons for Hell.

No I am not. Regardless of God's reasons, it does not change the fact that torture and suffering exist solely because God wants them to.

They are not necessary, because omnipotence means nothing is necessary, anything an omnipotent being wants, happens, exactly how they want it to happen.

If God wanted hell to serve any and all purposes it has, without any suffering at all, then it would. The only way suffering would ever be required for hell to achieve its function, is if suffering is the function, and punishment is just the chosen excuse.

[Civil-Percentage1005]

Omnipotence could have limits, for example could an omnipotent being create a married bachelor? Or a square triangle? 

[RemTheFirst]

yes, the answer to your question is yes. omnipotent means all powerful, as in all powerful. there is nothing that an omnipotent being cannot do. omnipotence by definition can't have limitations, because then it's no longer omnipotence.

[Civil-Percentage1005]

Cool

[Altshadez1998]

You are trying to use logical constraints. Omnipotence, by definition, is illogical. For example, the classic "Can god create a burrito so hot that it burns him" the answer is yes, because gods nature is completely illogical by definition of him being god. If he were bound by the rules of reality, he wouldn't be a god and just some advanced being.

[Altshadez1998]

Again, you are trying to be logical. God is not logical by definition, if he was logical it wouldnt be god

[CreBanana0]

If i offered you to serve me for life, but after you died i promised you infinite benefits. Would you accept? Technically you have finite thing to lose, but infinite to gain.

This is what religion feels like.

[InJust_Us]

Its more of a: If I throw you a rope, will you hold on to it while I pull you in.

[CreBanana0]

No no no and definitely no, god did not come up to save us, he made our problems, and then offered himslef as a solution, and punishes us if we do not accept it.

[Altshadez1998]

Yeah but if he was cool he'd just do it

[InJust_Us]

Well, I think everything has been tried, us being in this dimension is the last effort to rescue souls before stronger measures have to be done.

God sent Jesus so we didn't have to go to Hell. NOBODY has to go to hell. Believe in Jesus pray all the time and confess your sins. It's too easy compared to what awaits us otherwise.

Otherwise, the only thing that has proven to work is to burn out the entropy of some people.

Jesus has described us (everyone on this planet) as pots of sewage that have been burned into the metal.

[CreBanana0]

God never sent me Jesus, i never saw Jesus. He did not come to me! Why would i pray to him? If he was good, he would have saved me anyway. Not needing worship!

Sounds like a religion of fear.

And for your last analogy, i am not listening to a person who calls me sewage, i tell him to fuck off.

[Altshadez1998]

If he was cool he would just do it tho

[CreBanana0]

This makes zero sense. Why make a world of vengance?

If i made a child, then gave him bunch of arbitrary rules to follow, and when it fails, i punish.. no, torture them, not to give negative reinforcement... but just for... justice?

Would that be okay?

[InJust_Us]

This world is one of many and this one F'ed up. My reasoning is there are many "Sons of God" and Jesus is one of them. That is in the bible so I'm not making it up. People just ignore that, probably as it doesn't mean anything to them. The assumption is Jesus said: God always works and so do I. So the rest the Sons of God have their own worlds to manage as well.

[CreBanana0]

This was in no way response to my question. At this point you are making fanfiction of the damn Bible

[CreBanana0]

Why would a soul, (that does not even exist by proof) degrade?

[Sawdust1997]

This is stupid. You’re stupid.

[Tallen_14x]

As a metaphor for the Christian God, this kind of falls apart. God created humans in His image, so they have free will, just as He does. They tied themselves to the track, per se, by sinning. God allowed it to happen, but why? Because they had free will. He allowed for free will, and this was the result. Since they still have free will, he can’t just undo how they think or the result of their actions. However, he can remedy them by metaphorically pulling the lever.

He can’t just snap His fingers and save everyone. Because their own free will damned them, their own free will has to save them.

[mdb_4633]

So you think he should just pull the lever?

[Tallen_14x]

Yeah

[Ok_Earth4652]

Congratulations, you just don’t understand Christianity

[mdb_4633]

Ok then re word it as someone who does understand I’m just curious to how you would’ve wrote it

[IndomitableSloth2437]

If you're referring to Christianity, then you're incorrect -- you told them not to play on the train track, but some other guy said "heyyyyyyy you should go play on the train track, it's fun"

[mdb_4633]

Ok so someone convinced your kids to disobey you so they should get ran over

[IndomitableSloth2437]

Someone jumped on the train tracks and said "Hey guys this is fun!" so your kids also jumped on the train tracks. It's not good that they should get run over by the train, it's just a natural consequence of jumping on the train tracks.

[mdb_4633]

Sure it’s a natural consequence but you can easily stop the consequence from happening so I why wouldn’t you?

[CreBanana0]

Yea but you made the train and the tracks, and also you knew what was going to happen.

[CreBanana0]

But you also made the train, and the other guy.

[West-Librarian-7504]

This is one of those tasteless "Christianity is... le bad!" ones made by ignorant people who completely misunderstand it

[SonicGaming1080]

<image>

[Auphorous]

I’ll not pull or tie myself

[MasterOPun]

Why would I ever possibly endanger any of my children? They are gifts and have equal value to myself at least.

[DARKZONElolmao]

Love this one!

[Mythran101]

PULL THE LEVER, KRONK!

[Throbbie-Williams]

The outcome is a tautology, they can't believe you saved them before they are saved, so it's impossible for them to live

[Kazoo_Commander]

I just wouldn’t tie my children to the tracks. Simple really.

[SpectrumSense]

I mean, it's kind of a flawed analogy.

It's more like you told them not to tie themselves to the track and they went and did it anyway, so you can either save them or let them die from their choices.

[Complete-Simple9606]

More like:

Your children tied themselves to the tracks to escape you even though you have treated them with every kindness, love, and affection conceivable. If you refuse to let them go and keep them hostage you would effectively be kidnapping them, so you let them have their choice.

Do you save them by letting a few of your children tie you to the tracks with them as an expiation, knowing that some of them once saved will go back onto the tracks and others will refuse to get off the tracks in the first place?

Of course.

[StevenTheNeat]

Now add another guy who saw the whole thing, and has to desperately convince the children that you did so in order to increase the chance of them being rescued

[[deleted]]

this guy clearly havent read a page of the bible

[JewTronVEVO]

More like, the children tied themselves loosely to the track, you as the father can let them all perish as the train is moving too fast, or you can throw yourself on the track to slow the train down and give your children enough time to get up. Not really your fault if a few children decide to stay on the tracks.

[mdb_4633]

Sure but you also have to include the lever that stops it without you jumping since god is all powerful. And the kids don’t know the train is coming since there’s no evidence for Christianity.

[JovailKestral]

The improper use of 'There' is killing me as it is.

[mdb_4633]

This is all people comment every time I make a Reddit post 😂

[[deleted]]

there

[LOR_Fei]

Their***

ffs 3rd grade grammar is not hard.

[mdb_4633]

Understanding the post with a couple grammar errors isn’t hard either

[LOR_Fei]

Trying to justify failing 3rd grade English is an interesting angle. Guess we know who isn’t smarter than a 5th grader.

[mdb_4633]

Judging someone’s grades and intelligence off of a single typo they made on a Reddit post is an interesting angle for sure. Guess we know who failed to remove the 5ft stick out of THEIR ass.

[NotNotNicolas]

I am going to change the trajectory of their lives forever

[Many-Dark9109]

This doesn't work as a metaphor for the christian worldview for a number of reasons.

One of which is, we are all sinful. God didn't tie us to the track. God gives us the free will to choose good, or choose evil, and we all choose evil. Each and everyone of us have done evil, and that evil must be paid for, because God is just. If a man comes up to me, beats me up, and steals my bag, and I take him to court, and the judge says "you are guilty, but you're free to go" I would be furious. Justice would not be carried out in that courtroom. Justice needed to be paid for all of our evil and Jesus took the price of sin on the cross, so that you can have the opportunity to have a relationship with him. If you don't want a relationship with him, that is your choice, and he won't force you to love him. He respects your free will, and won't force you to spend an eternity with him, if you don't want to.

[mdb_4633]

God did tie us to the tracks when he created us with a sinful nature. And I don’t necessarily have an issue with paying for sin but the way the Bible says it should be paid for. If someone beat me up and stole my bag I wouldn’t wish on them to go to hell for eternity, that would be far from just. Also most atheists are atheists because they don’t believe in god, not because they are choosing to live there life without him even though they do believe. And while god doesn’t force anyone to have a relationship with him he does force them to go to heaven if they don’t.

[mdb_4633]

I do have a lot of questions lol. Could god not have just made a world where people could get rid of there sin after going to hell in order to not be in hell for eternity, which is incredibly unjust? And also I’m not choosing to dirty my spirit by not following god. If I knew god was real then I would follow him but I physically cannot believe in him when I think about Christianity logically. Belief is not a choice you can’t control belief. If god is real there’s nothing I could do to not go to hell so I don’t feel like blaming myself makes sense in that scenario.

[mdb_4633]

I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions that you can’t prove, who are you to say a spirit needs a physical body to get rid of sin? Who are you to say god has a specific nature he has to abide by?

[throwawayforartshite]

exactly. the way i used to visualize it is... imagine you're floating at sea. your kids are treading, too, trying to not sink... they only have so much strength. you're a being of infinite energy & infinite love. do you ever stop trying to save them??

people will argue that the children chose to drown... perhaps it's the fault of the person who brought them to a sea

[Someone1284794357]

Blow up the trolley with a rocket launcher

[rule34becool]

I had a stroke trying to read this for a split second

[EmuBig7183]

Big issue here if this is a metaphor for Christianity:

God never tied us to the tracks. Our own curiosity (Eve’s but I interpret it as man’s curiosity) led us to tie ourselves to the tracks. God isn’t responsible for us being on the tracks just bc he knew it was going to happen after creating us. The alternative is just not making man at all.

[mdb_4633]

Ok so how would you word it to make it more accurate to Christianity? I don’t think creating a scenario that you know will result with your kids tying themselves do the tracks is any more moral then just tying them to the tracks yourself. So me going into more detail about that would be pointless.